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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2237921 times)

tagor

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #990 on: May 22, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 22, 2009, 04:42:53 PM
Tell me about it!  LOL

Ron

good luck in your search ron
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #991 on: May 22, 2009, 05:46:48 PM »
Quote from: tagor on May 22, 2009, 05:27:25 PM
sorry ron

but you have to learn more about physics

I have been!  always willing to learn. Thats why I like poking sticks through the bars at the bear (Hans) because then I have to study to find out out what he said.

I am interested in any point you want to bring up...?

Ron


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tagor

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #992 on: May 22, 2009, 05:52:38 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 22, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
I have been!  always willing to learn. Thats why I like poking sticks through the bars at the bear (Hans) because then I have to study to find out out what he said.

I am interested in any point you want to bring up...?

Ron

sorry ron , too much time for me
ask to Hans
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #993 on: May 22, 2009, 07:20:37 PM »
Quote from: tagor on May 22, 2009, 05:52:38 PM
sorry ron , too much time for me
ask to Hans

I understand that all too well.

But any point that you feel uncomfortable with is a good point to bring forward... any time.

Good talking with you.

Ron
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #994 on: May 23, 2009, 12:38:12 AM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 22, 2009, 12:07:15 AM
Sorry Ron, but this is not quite correct.

Hans von Lieven

Hans, is there any chance I could get an autographed copy of your new book? That was pretty funny... :D

Ron


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hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #995 on: May 23, 2009, 01:26:01 AM »
There is a big difference between able to do work and doing work. Able to do work is called potential energy. This is not the same as doing work. In your measurements you are not expending any energy and keep counting the same potential energy over and over again.

Hans von Lieven

BTW: No book but http://keelytech.com will have to do
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #996 on: May 23, 2009, 02:55:53 AM »
Quote
author=hansvonlieven

Hans von Lieven

BTW: No book but http://keelytech.com will have to do


Thanks for the link Hans, though I had my heart set on the
mylow book, lol

Ron
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 05:24:25 AM by i_ron »
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #997 on: May 23, 2009, 05:14:51 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 23, 2009, 01:26:01 AM
There is a big difference between able to do work and doing work. Able to do work is called potential energy. This is not the same as doing work. In your measurements you are not expending any energy and keep counting the same potential energy over and over again.

Hans von Lieven


My dear professor No,

Not so.

I know what potential energy is, a pendulum in oporation by itself. In one of my examples I gave with the pendulum connected to a lever, fulcrumed at the mid point, this potential energy is transferred through to the other end of the arm and can be felt, observed, measured as a force. This is potential energy.

However when this PE, at the end of the secondary arm is allowed to displace a mas, work is done. You admit that work is done when this PE is allowed to displace a given mas of water, yet I am afraid you lost me when you state that when this same PE, if allowed to displace an equivalent mas of cast iron,  is not doing work? Is there a problem with your logic?

To avoid this sin wave, cycling problem you seem to have, let’s just take one .8 second frame for reference…the maintenance pulse required to maintain the pendulum in a steady state, from my exporiment, is 1.2499 Foot force. The output is 5.833 Foot force.

(1 Foot Force {foot pound} = 1.3558 Nm)

The pendulum’s potential energy has been converted to work at the end of the secondary arm in a favorable ratio of 4.66:1.

Ron

mis spel'ng to defeet the dreaded blue adds, lol
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 12:48:08 AM by i_ron »
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Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #998 on: May 24, 2009, 12:56:38 AM »
Ron, I think Hans's main disagreement with you is that hitting a piece of iron with an hammer is not enough to conclude that the machine is doing actual work. His and others view is that energy will only be reflected back into the oscillation and thereby aid the pendulums oscillation.
I do not really agree with this because a lot of energy is lost from the hammer when it hits the iron or what ever you used, both as heat, vibration and sound. This will also happen very fast several times while the hammer is touching the ground, as it will be reflected back and fourth again, with an increasingly large frequency (just like a coin just before it looses its vibration completely when flipped on a surface).

Anyway, that impressively well build machine you have should and deserves to be connected to a simple and efficient load, like a water pump or maybe a compressor (as another guy suggested earlier).
The only way to shut up the critics completely without closing the loop is to make it do some useful and practical work. I really want to see yours do it  :)

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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #999 on: May 24, 2009, 03:28:25 AM »
Quote from: Nabo00o on May 24, 2009, 12:56:38 AM
Ron, I think Hans's main disagreement with you is that hitting a piece of iron with an hammer is not enough to conclude that the machine is doing actual work. His and others view is that energy will only be reflected back into the oscillation and thereby aid the pendulums oscillation.
I do not really agree with this because a lot of energy is lost from the hammer when it hits the iron or what ever you used, both as heat, vibration and sound. This will also happen very fast several times while the hammer is touching the ground, as it will be reflected back and fourth again, with an increasingly large frequency (just like a coin just before it looses its vibration completely when flipped on a surface).

Anyway, that impressively well build machine you have should and deserves to be connected to a simple and efficient load, like a water pump or maybe a compressor (as another guy suggested earlier).
The only way to shut up the critics completely without closing the loop is to make it do some useful and practical work. I really want to see yours do it  :)

This has already been done in the flashlight pendulum and the water pump pendulum, so I felt no need to go there.

The path I was pursuing was that of understanding where the force originated, its strength, and how best to utilize it.

Hans main disagreement with me is not that at all, rather he has stated that Milkovic's pendulum is bullsh*t. If you remember he trashed my study without even reading it... and has never bothered to retract his erroneous statement.
Nothing that I could do or present would change his opinion.

 So I would assume that most people on here are fans and would like to see this pendulum thing succeed. We are doing our best.

Ron
 


« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 05:42:33 AM by i_ron »
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rlortie

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1000 on: May 24, 2009, 05:00:43 AM »
ABHammer (Alan) is a professional builder of 14th century armor. He strikes metal with a hammer reshaping it and it is called work. Tell him it is not work and see what kind of reply you get!

Ralph
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hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1001 on: May 24, 2009, 05:23:25 AM »
Hitting a piece of iron with a hammer IS doing work. Ron's device does not do that. There is NO interaction with anything outside his system. If his counterweight was to actually strike something it would be a totally different set of measurements.

Besides, it is not true that I did not read Ron's report. I have simply disagreed with his method of measurement from the start and I still do.

Hans von Lieven
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rlortie

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1002 on: May 24, 2009, 05:42:20 AM »
Hello Ron,

I have a great idea! stick your middle finger between the lever end and the anvil. If it causes biological discomfort such as pain, swelling, and turns black and blue, then you can hold up that middle finger and say; see it does do work. :-*

Ralph

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hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1003 on: May 24, 2009, 10:04:13 AM »
Yes it will do work then Ralph, just the weight going up and down does no such thing in a balanced system.

Hans von Lieven
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fritz

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1004 on: May 24, 2009, 03:38:08 PM »
1) The thing can be charged up with kinetic/potential energy
2) The thing consumes energy and releases energy
3) The thing needs certain input power and outputs certain input power

Because the thing is charged up with kinetic energy - the peak power released can be a multiple of the input power or even infinite until the kinetic energy stored is consumed.

so what ?
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