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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2231907 times)

Inquorate

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #945 on: May 20, 2009, 01:32:28 AM »
@ i_ron and others,

you may be interested in what i've been doing over at energetic forum and posting on youtube.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3703-mechanical-engine-20.html

love and light
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Inquorate

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #946 on: May 20, 2009, 03:02:29 AM »
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #947 on: May 20, 2009, 03:19:55 AM »
Quote from: Inquorate on May 20, 2009, 01:32:28 AM
@ i_ron and others,

you may be interested in what i've been doing over at energetic forum and posting on youtube.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3703-mechanical-engine-20.html

love and light

Inquorate,

Thank you for the link, most fascinating. I will bookmark the site.

Ron
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hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #948 on: May 20, 2009, 03:30:02 AM »
Quote from: Nabo00o on May 20, 2009, 01:23:38 AM
No, it wouldn't double the output but make it near 100 % efficient.

Too bad all of Tommy's videos where removed, I learned a lot from watching those.
Right now he is trying to get a patent on the ratched engine and a rotating piston design.
If the ratched engine was able to reach the market it would completely revolutionize the car industry, and every other industry as well which uses gas driven motors.

The fact that this design is so efficient would allow all cars to run on air, and get very far.
In my view batteries can't compete with air cylinders at all. Gas tanks can be refueled in seconds, and will take very long to wear out. In addition there isn't much pollution generated when trashing one.

I have not seen Tommy's videos, but if it is something like I imagine, most of the technology involved was covered and patented by George Constantinesco in the 1920's. The double ratchet shown by me was designed by Constantineso for instance, as a starting point and he developed it from there.

Hans von Lieven
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Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #949 on: May 20, 2009, 02:53:45 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 20, 2009, 03:30:02 AM
I have not seen Tommy's videos, but if it is something like I imagine, most of the technology involved was covered and patented by George Constantinesco in the 1920's. The double ratchet shown by me was designed by Constantineso for instance, as a starting point and he developed it from there.

Hans von Lieven

Well even if he had already patented it, its weird that all of todays cars and factories doesn't use it, or well, I guess there is reason to that as well....
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exnihiloest

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #950 on: May 20, 2009, 04:03:17 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 19, 2009, 04:53:01 PM
...
This is it! the weight change appears at the pivot point!
Now take a one meter long arm and attach an 18 Kg  pendulum to one end with the fulcrum at the 500 mm mark. You must press down on the free end with a force of 18 Kg to bring the arm level. But you are doing no work.
...

Hi ron,

That is right. But here is what you missed.
You do no work when you raise the pivot of a pendulum.
But you don't raise the bob!

In fact it is obvious that a little work have to be done because the bob is attached to the lever: if one end of the lever goes up, the other one partially also, and the bob also  (a trigonometric calculus could give us the new height of the bob after having raised the pivot). Nevertheless it is not the point, this work is small if we don't raise much the pivot.

Now the pivot is higher than before but the bob is not. Then the angular amplitude of its movement will be lesser. The mean position of the center of gravity of the bob remains unchanged and its mean potential/kinetic energies also. The energy balance is null.

We see we did no work, but the pendulum did not as well.






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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #951 on: May 20, 2009, 04:59:13 PM »
Quote from: exnihiloest on May 20, 2009, 04:03:17 PM
Hi ron,

That is right. But here is what you missed.
You do no work when you raise the pivot of a pendulum.
But you don't raise the bob!

In fact it is obvious that a little work have to be done because the bob is attached to the lever: if one end of the lever goes up, the other one partially also, and the bob also  (a trigonometric calculus could give us the new height of the bob after having raised the pivot). Nevertheless it is not the point, this work is small if we don't raise much the pivot.

Now the pivot is higher than before but the bob is not. Then the angular amplitude of its movement will be lesser. The mean position of the center of gravity of the bob remains unchanged and its mean potential/kinetic energies also. The energy balance is null.

We see we did no work, but the pendulum did not as well.

All the evidence of all the working models puts the lie to your statement, sorry.

But you do bring up a point that has been recognized. I have written on this very thing... in allowing the pivot point to move up and down out of sync with it's "natural" movement does cause an increase in the input energy required. For an example, at Botafumeiro we see classic mechanics  as the monks pull down on the rope, thus raising the burner at its 6:00 o'clock position. In the Milkovic device the bob is in decent at this point.

But it seems to work well (comfortably) at under 50 mm on the Mk 5.3, so this is not really a great problem.

This is a work in progress that I have shared with you and I am surprised that no one has pointed out this ... the inefficiency of the solenoid drive... less than 30%.  So the conclusion should be, wow, even with less than a 30% input drive the machine is still over unity!

Ron


 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:51:21 PM by i_ron »
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #952 on: May 20, 2009, 07:49:46 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 19, 2009, 01:49:33 AM
It would be interesting to see just how the "output" was measured.

My guess is it was done with a spring scale, in which case most of the energy would have been fed back into the system. Let it hit a solid surface and then see how it performs. If my experiments and simulations are an indicator, very poorly !

Hans von Lieven

Hans, your statement above was made in ignorance. I provided you with a link, yet you have not corrected your slanderous remarks.

This does not surprise me as I have read your, “Milkovic’s pendulum is bullshit” remarks on other lists before now.

So, to the best of my abilities, I have done the experiment and published my numbers, which you ignore. With an attitude like that why are you here? Have you no personal integrity to correct your wrongful statements, to honestly investigate new sources of information?

You have certainly exposed yourself and shown your true colors to this list.

Ron
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Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #953 on: May 20, 2009, 08:59:34 PM »
Quote from: exnihiloest on May 19, 2009, 11:02:56 AM
In this paper announced in the last sunday news at peswiki.com (http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Merenja/Ronald_Pugh_Input-Ouput_Measurement_Mk5.pdf) there is a Milkovic Output/Input measurement at COP 1.46.

It is very interesting that Brian Berrett also got the same COP 1.46 two years ago :)

There is only a small electrical advantage with just six induction coils on the secondary oscillator wheel as presently configured. The input coil consumes 1 amp at twelve volts at approximately a 20% duty cycle which comes to around 2.4 Watts. The output is between 200 and 300 mAmps, at between 14 and 15 Volts, which comes to around 3.5 Watts AC (sine wave). These are very rough measurements and don't represent a full curve analysis of the input and output.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Milkovic-Berrett_Secondary_Oscillator_Generator#Electrical
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #954 on: May 20, 2009, 09:48:06 PM »
Quote from: Merg on May 20, 2009, 08:59:34 PM
It is very interesting that Brian Berrett also got the same COP 1.46 two years ago :)

There is only a small electrical advantage with just six induction coils on the secondary oscillator wheel as presently configured. The input coil consumes 1 amp at twelve volts at approximately a 20% duty cycle which comes to around 2.4 Watts. The output is between 200 and 300 mAmps, at between 14 and 15 Volts, which comes to around 3.5 Watts AC (sine wave). These are very rough measurements and don't represent a full curve analysis of the input and output.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Milkovic-Berrett_Secondary_Oscillator_Generator#Electrical

Merg,

Interesting, I had forgotten that. The only conclusion can be that even with very very inefficient replicas OU is the norm.

Ron
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Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #955 on: May 20, 2009, 10:07:09 PM »
Yes but you understand why? The resonance is the key to power amplification, but tapping it from the other side of the spring or pendulum is what makes it free.
If you tapped the energy stored in the pendulum directly there would be no excess energy.
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Cherryman

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #956 on: May 20, 2009, 10:17:56 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 20, 2009, 09:48:06 PM
Merg,

Interesting, I had forgotten that. The only conclusion can be that even with very very inefficient replicas OU is the norm.

Ron

:Y  I think a good mechanical OU concept would work with wood, stone.. etc whatever..  Because if it has to do work of meaning. If a little drag, friction or a slight missmeasurement should not be of any problem to show the concept.
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hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #957 on: May 20, 2009, 10:42:15 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 20, 2009, 07:49:46 PM
Hans, your statement above was made in ignorance. I provided you with a link, yet you have not corrected your slanderous remarks.

This does not surprise me as I have read your, “Milkovic’s pendulum is bullshit” remarks on other lists before now.

So, to the best of my abilities, I have done the experiment and published my numbers, which you ignore. With an attitude like that why are you here? Have you no personal integrity to correct your wrongful statements, to honestly investigate new sources of information?

You have certainly exposed yourself and shown your true colors to this list.

Ron

What are you talking about? I have not slandered anyone. I merely said that Ron does not show how the so called "output" was measured. Then I said that if it was measured with a spring scale the results are invalid as the energy gets fed back into the system.

Both statements are correct and based on good science.

I am not the only one that as a result of experiment, measurements and also simulations came up with the conclusion that there is no overunity in the device but a net loss.

Brian Berrett initially thought he had overunity but quickly found out that this was not so. He then just walked away from the whole deal. There have been many others that have tried over the years. Milkovic himself has played with this thing of his for many years and is still pushing it with his finger.

I challenge you to do what others including me have done. Build the device and make some honest measurements and then report what you have found and how it was measured.

Hans von Lieven

Hams von Lieven
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Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #958 on: May 20, 2009, 11:25:40 PM »
Simulations will not show you this accurately, the best way to do it is to test it for yourself. ((Edit) Sorry I wrote this before I saw that you had replicated it.)
A simple beam with a pendulum or spring attached, both of which will work.

Look at the two extremes of operation, first when it is completely loaded, which means that you attach something so heavy or a work so hard that the beam wont move at all.
Then just remove the load as much as possible and look at the difference.
What do you see?
The relationship between resistance in load and the draining of oscillation has reversed completely.
If you force a wheel to do more work it will slow faster in its oscillation.
If you however turn that wheel into a 2 stage oscillator, and load it at its new output, the opposite will be true. The more you load it, the less energy will be lost in the oscillator itself, just like the pendulum in the milkociv device.

Do you not see these facts as something of importance?
Btw, hints and hints before, all acoustical amplifiers works by the same principle.
Without a resonant chamber all good blues and guitar music would have had to wait until the electrical power amplification era of tubes and transistors arrived. This goes also for any instrument using the phenomena. Now hans, in an energy conservation perspective, would you care to explain how this is possible?
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i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #959 on: May 20, 2009, 11:30:49 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 20, 2009, 10:42:15 PM


I challenge you to do what others including me have done. Build the device and make some honest measurements and then report what you have found and how it was measured.

Hans von Lieven

Hams von Lieven

Alright, I accept your challenge, now read my report

http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Merenja/Ronald_Pugh_Input-Output_Measurement_Mk5.pdf

Ron

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 12:55:45 AM by i_ron »
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