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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 246801 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #810 on: April 15, 2017, 04:52:32 PM »
Well,guess i am going to have to wind a couple of pancake coils now-1x mono,and 1x bifiler.
They can be a real bitch to wind. I just made a matching monofilar coil to the two bifilars that I posted a picture of earlier, #27 wire filling one side of a CD-ROM. It took about 2 hours of solid concentration with no breaks possible. Trying to do it with #33 magnet wire would be nearly impossible for a mortal human being.
But of course the finer the wire: the longer, the more DC resistance, the more inductance, the more distributed capacitance, the easier it is to test and examine claims.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your testing. I'll be posting another video myself soon.

Quote

All the caps i have pulled apart,have the input taps at the center of the rolls of plates,and so,the current will flow CW around half the windings of each plate,and CCW around the other half of each plate. This would cancel out any magnetic field--maybe that is why they make them like that.


Brad

Yes, considerable effort goes into making capacitors as non-inductive as possible. Think about the tiny capacitors and inductors in a cellphone! Operating at several gigaHz frequencies, even the inductance of a short straight trace on the printed circuit board is significant.

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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #811 on: April 15, 2017, 04:56:21 PM »
Whaaat? If we ignore the delay of current build, the current should max out instantly? Whaaaaat? If you ignore the coffee that is in the pot, then there is no coffee in the pot?

Where did I ever agree to that? Link or quotation please.

Nothing happens instantly.

I was referring to your reply to my post about resistance on that and you said "exactly Mags"  Ill look it up if need be.

On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

Mags

Offline Zephir

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #812 on: April 15, 2017, 04:57:39 PM »
Quote
Lawrence has made many claims that have turned out not to be true. Remember the "overunity Joule Thief" fiasco?

Until you have no theory, then any attempt for replication of overunity devices is just naive Cargo Cult "science". In this thread we can see it with example of attempt for replication of Nelson's Rocha parametric circuit. 'This circuit is basically normal Joule-Thief, i.e. very classical Armstrong oscillator in essence. But simple change of single wire placement will change it into way more complex parametric oscillator with potential overunity capability. You can't get this detail just from plain circuit scheme. Maybe even the constructors of first Joule Thief overunity circuits weren't aware of this option - so that they failed in replications of their own prototypes. The same troubles did follow the early attempts for replication of cold fusion and another findings, which has lead into their premature dismissal.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #812 on: April 15, 2017, 04:57:39 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #813 on: April 15, 2017, 05:03:27 PM »
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.

Yes, a very good point about Conrad's setup having low capacitance considering the wire he was using.  What's great about his two clips is the way he excites the coil and makes the measurements.

So presumably you will have more capacitance with finer enamel-coated wire, with the trade-off being more resistance and less maximum inter-filar voltage.

My challenge to anyone is to then crunch the numbers and determine the estimated continuous burn-off power to sustain a self-resonant cavity of X microjoules.  Then draw your own conclusions about that.  And of course the continuous challenge is to state what the series bifilar coil does for us and what practical applications can you do with it.  Just staring at a sine wave on your oscilloscope is useless in the real world.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #814 on: April 15, 2017, 05:10:23 PM »
They can be a real bitch to wind. I just made a matching monofilar coil to the two bifilars that I posted a picture of earlier, #27 wire filling one side of a CD-ROM. It took about 2 hours of solid concentration with no breaks possible. Trying to do it with #33 magnet wire would be nearly impossible for a mortal human being.
But of course the finer the wire: the longer, the more DC resistance, the more inductance, the more distributed capacitance, the easier it is to test and examine claims.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your testing. I'll be posting another video myself soon.

Yes, considerable effort goes into making capacitors as non-inductive as possible. Think about the tiny capacitors and inductors in a cellphone! Operating at several gigaHz frequencies, even the inductance of a short straight trace on the printed circuit board is significant.

Here is how I plan to take the bitch out of it. ;)   14ga, can spit it down the middle to get my 2 conductors and lay it out with ease and increase the capacitance with more surface area between turns. The wire with insulation is 1/16th in and looking at it closer on the profile the insulation looks to be about 1/64th in one either side so still 1/32 spacing between copper to copper.

Right out of the package its 35 turns and if i split the pair and bifi them the dia will grow some as it is 8.5in in dia right out of the package and turns will increase. Not double, i know, will see. I got this some time ago and now is a good time to use it. Thats what I bought it for.



Mags.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #814 on: April 15, 2017, 05:10:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #815 on: April 15, 2017, 05:14:00 PM »
Yes.  Probably the best would be square profile enamel wire. Also comes in a rectangular kind also. That would increase surface area proximity between windings.  In Telsas drawing of the series bifi is seems to show some heavy insulation, but that doesnt change the fact that it could be better.

Mags

Exactly!


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #816 on: April 15, 2017, 05:23:19 PM »
I was referring to your reply to my post about resistance on that and you said "exactly Mags"  Ill look it up if need be.

On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

Mags
OK, I see what you mean now. It's a good question but difficult to answer experimentally. I'll see what I can do.
But you have to remember that there are different kinds of "non inductive resistors". There are wirewound resistors that use special windings like hairpin bifilar and Ayrton-Perry, whose magnetic fields do exist but cancel in the bulk due to the proximity of the windings carrying currents in opposite directions. There are carbon composition resistors that have no windings at all. There are flat resistors with special partial conductive materials that also have no windings at all.


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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #816 on: April 15, 2017, 05:23:19 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #817 on: April 15, 2017, 05:24:29 PM »
ok,below is my bifilar coil.
It is made from heavy gauge rectangular ali enameled wire-so the winds sit nice and neat together.

I am just running an AC current through it,via my SG-so very low powered.

But here is the kicker,after a quick 10 minutes of testing.

The voltage generated across the sniffer coil,is in phase with the voltage across the bifilar coil,and not in phase with the current through the bifilar coil. The current through the bifilar coil is 90* out of phase with both the voltage across the bifilar and sniffer coils  :o

Tomorrow i will wind a single layer coil of the same amount of turns,and see if it is the same.


Brad

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #818 on: April 15, 2017, 05:24:52 PM »
Mags:
(no bitch)

BITCH !!


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #818 on: April 15, 2017, 05:24:52 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #819 on: April 15, 2017, 05:25:48 PM »
And... by the way... capacitors take time to build an electric field and charge up to a given voltage, and inductors take time to build a magnetic field and pass a given current. Nothing happens instantaneously.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/lr-circuits.html

I understand that. But with a bifi, is it different than what you posted above. His pat clearly states differently than you quote above. Like I said, its a very quick read. So lets test his claim. ;D Or is it your opinion that he was terribly mistaken as you have read it already and took note of the claim? Just askin.

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #820 on: April 15, 2017, 05:26:43 PM »
On what you quoted me on above, Im just relaying what Tesla says in the pat on electromagnets.  The inductance is ignored by the input and the only current limiting factor over time is the coils resistance. So it was the resistance part that you agreed with me on that the currents through a non inductive resistor has no delay in reaching max current V/R. Soo, if Teslas claim is correct then if we pulse the bifi coil, the only thing the input sees is the resistance and if the current reaches max instantly then what of the magnetic field it generated?  Its a short read. So why not investigate THAT claim?  ;)

You are missing the key point here.  Tesla states in the patent that at the right AC excitation frequency the bifilar coil (or any coil) will appear as a pure resistance.  This is where the coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  And we know that when you excite a series LC circuit with a pure sine wave that the series LC circuit looks like the wire resistance only because at the right AC excitation frequency the reactance of the inductance and the capacitance cancel each other out.

So if you pulse a bifilar coil, this is not the same as pure sine wave excitation at the resonant frequency, and the "wire resistance only" statement does not apply.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #820 on: April 15, 2017, 05:26:43 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #821 on: April 15, 2017, 05:27:04 PM »
Brad: Your wirewound cement resistor probably has significant inductance too!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #822 on: April 15, 2017, 05:34:13 PM »
The use of the words "in theory" suggests that you haven't tested the idea you are contemplating......  you are fishing for ideas before you present your own....LOL....  There is only one way to accomplish this task, and as a requirement one must embrace an alternative form of induction, one which does not result in the inductor's opposition to change mechanism being triggered.

You are not even close and I am not fishing for anything.

I am not going to answer the question either, and would ask those that "know", who are not of the self appointed elite to not answer the question.  A select few of you have been playing with coils, parroting and preaching the gospel for over 30 years. You have no plan, for the near-instant magnetic field generation in a coil, but you'd like us to think you do......If you had a working concept, with your experience, and this knowledge, you could write your own ticket!

Try thinking it out and coming up with an answer instead of looking for trouble.  The point in asking the question is to get you to think, and I think that you are going in that direction which is good.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #823 on: April 15, 2017, 05:34:54 PM »
OK, I see what you mean now. It's a good question but difficult to answer experimentally. I'll see what I can do.
But you have to remember that there are different kinds of "non inductive resistors". There are wirewound resistors that use special windings like hairpin bifilar and Ayrton-Perry, whose magnetic fields do exist but cancel in the bulk due to the proximity of the windings carrying currents in opposite directions. There are carbon composition resistors that have no windings at all. There are flat resistors with special partial conductive materials that also have no windings at all.

ok we cool.  I know the test will have to be developed. Im imagining that a pulse train on a normal coil will show the current build delay due to inductance and if Tesla is correct the bifi should show instant or even say a much shorter delay due to inductance. It will be interesting.

Mags


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #824 on: April 15, 2017, 05:37:41 PM »
I understand that. But with a bifi, is it different than what you posted above. His pat clearly states differently than you quote above. Like I said, its a very quick read. So lets test his claim. ;D Or is it your opinion that he was terribly mistaken as you have read it already and took note of the claim? Just askin.

Mags

No, I think you are misinterpreting the physical situation. As MH has said, the inductive and capacitive reactances work to cancel at a specific frequency. They still exist! That is, the magnetic field of the coil and the electric field of the capacitance still exist but when combined at the right frequency they make the coil "look like" it has only the ohmic resistance during the AC oscillation. A 'coil for electromagnets' wouldn't be much good if it did not have a magnetic field, would it? And it takes time for a magnetic field to build, it does not happen instantly, except maybe in superconductors ("instantly" still being limited by the speed of light). In the bifilar coil or any coil at its resonant frequency, you have an exchange of energy between the magnetic field and the electric field and if this happens at the right timing, it looks like there is no impedance. But if you could monitor either the magnetic field or the electric field you would still see them growing and shrinking, with each cycle of the stimulating AC current.

 

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