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Author Topic: Resonant conductors and 3 phase power  (Read 997 times)

Online Solhi

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Resonant conductors and 3 phase power
« on: November 29, 2020, 03:00:31 AM »
Hi, I'm a newbi and try to orientate and absorb all this exiting, for me, new stuff.
Regarding resonant conductors, I wonder is anybody can explain me this :
I read in the documentary that a single L1 can power multiple L2's. This brings me to 3 phase electrical power, which is defined as three alternating voltages and currents differing in phase-time by 120 degrees.
How would one bring about this difference in phase time in these L2 inductors?

Edit: while waiting for moderation, i found this :
https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_notes/switching_thyristors/littelfuse_thyristor_phase_control_using_thyristors_application_note.pdf.pdf
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 04:54:38 AM by Solhi »

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Offline DonEMitchell

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Re: Resonant conductors and 3 phase power
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2021, 12:01:57 PM »
Hi Soli!  Maybe I can help... You wrote on the 10th...

"Regarding resonant conductors, I wonder is anybody can explain me this: I read in the documentary that a single L1 can power multiple L2's. This brings me to 3 phase electrical power, which is defined as three alternating voltages and currents differing in phase-time by 120 degrees.

How would one bring about this difference in phase time in these L2 inductors?"


Three independent signals need created to trigger three independent circuits for three-phases, typically.  On the power grid, the three phase is generated by generators at the power station, because there are three separate windings on a rotary shaft.


Co-generation of three phase power from the auto-transformer effect is possible, but this is for industrial things and is always be at 60 cycles-per-second from the power company.

One L1 conductor cannot generate other timing without electronic sophistication, but any one line phase (L1, L2, and L3)  does feed into each the other phases.  That's the "Y" or the delta (triangle) connection schemes.


If you're into breadboarding logic chips, a clock signal can be feed to a "Johnson ring counter" which can take one square wave, and make symmetrical three-phase on three outputs, always 120 degrees separated (at 1/3 the square wave frequency).  This generated three-phase signal would then be routed to power-transistors or such to multiply the digitial signal level to a useful power levels.  Just like switching a MOSFET, but done with three separate MOSFET circuits.


Marko Rodin's coil is commonly (and only ?) energized by hobbyists with a simple stereo amplifier, which is only good to the upper end of audio frequencies.   The Rodin Coil can create magnetic rotation because the two coils (with a missing coil location) are separated on the donut by 120 degrees (1/3 of a circle).

A stereo amplifier with 90 degree separation of phase  will find a rotary action on 90 degree separated peaks on just two phases when the Rodin coils aren't equally spaced.


If one were to build a Rodin Coil  without the missing gap (two coils spaced 180 degrees apart), and use dual stereo channels to drive it, no magnetic rotation would happen.  It would be like firing a spark plug on top-dead-center... the piston won't rotate either way if not already turning.



And do please realize... rotary action in a Rodin Coil at audio frequencies is nothing at all to claim as a discovery!  It's simply the way magnetic fields are physically patterned to activate, in a circle.  But it is a fun personal discovery!  That was Tesla's big insight, phased activation.


Another way to make three phase electrification is with a ring-amplifier.  It is simply a ring of switches turning each other on and off in an endless tail chase.  Three-phases can be built, five-phase, or any odd-number of inverting ring sections can be made.


The ring amplifier, though, is noisy, because it is a self-clocking ring, and each oscillation will accumulate more timing error.  This edge-jitter noise centers around a center-frequency of the ring... and often noise can help stimulate harmonics.  Not all bad.  And a ring oscillator runs balls-out!  It is as fast as the signal can propagate around the ring.  However, without having a scope to know if you even have a high-frequency signal could be literally like sun-tanning against a 5G cell tower.


If the above isn't clear, please do query for clarification!


And warm regards to your inquisitive mind,

DonEM

"Science isn't just poking in the dark, but illuminating the darkness with the light of reason." -dem


Online Solhi

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Re: Resonant conductors and 3 phase power
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 01:08:47 PM »
Hi Don,
thanks for your answer and i will keep them in memory.
The case is, in the meantime I did go for the Don Smith solution, but found there is to much electronics involved.
Don Smith said it was actually very simple and I wanted to follow that notion. I came to the conclusion (all in theory) that it is indeed simple, but could not understand why even Don Smith made it seemingly more complicated as it should be.
I love the KISS approach. So until now I have rendered (in my head) this solution. As a starter I make a 24 VAC 3A generator made from a used 24 V BLDC. Following the quarter wave theorem, I understand that it is not important what frequency you feed to a tuned air coil, as it will automatic resonate following its conductor length. So my picture shows this configuration: Coil 1 boost the 24 V input to 228 V, coil 2 boosts this to 684 V/684 A, Coil 3 takes it down to 228 V again, but now with loads of current available. As long as I keep to the 1:4 ratio in length and 1:2 ratio in thickness (0,5 mm/1 mm) and their self resonance is in the radio frequency area, in this case around 2-3 Mhz I do not need to worry to much.
The worry starts to bring down this frequency to 50 Hz which I thought be done with a BandPass Filter. Yes I'm aware of the heath. So this last air coil input 9 turns 684 V to output 3 turns 228 V needs a solution
If I make 3x 3 turns I have 3 outputs in the same freq and phase. Would one first use 3 BPF to bring down the frequency and than try to get a change of phase? The link I posted before with the Thyristor solution looks interesting, but can it be done simpler?

Edit: yhis also includes electronics: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_7.html

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Re: Resonant conductors and 3 phase power
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 01:08:47 PM »
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