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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 251784 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #795 on: April 15, 2017, 02:38:20 PM »
@Tinman,

"A flux density of 1 Wb/m2 is 1 tesla".

I would think that flux density and field strength go hand in hand. ;)

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #796 on: April 15, 2017, 02:49:31 PM »
But is funny. I know you consider yourself to be well above me in all this stuff, yet I can recognize an approximate coil resistance just by looking at it in a vid without proper perspective. If you are going to stand as an authority on these things here then I would expect the same kind of prowess as I had shown here. Sure you can lay it down and say it was a mistake, but at the time you were laying it down as if it were textbook example of what is going on in conrads coils. You resistance number was so far off that it made a uh and pf coil to look like the outcome was more than 200% worse than it actually is. Thats a big mistake, not a little tiny baby mistake. So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here. Sorry but as you know, this is not the first time for such mistakes of this sort.

mags

If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

Quote
So its just hard to not think that maybe you are making these changes on purpose for your own benefit at degrading the experiments here.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #797 on: April 15, 2017, 03:04:31 PM »
If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.

So,are you saying that it will make no difference having 1 volt difference between turns,and 50 volts difference between turns?.

Well,looks like i really do have to wind me two coils now.
It's 9pm here--i got this  ;)
Have no idea what happened to my old one's.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #797 on: April 15, 2017, 03:04:31 PM »
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Offline maxc

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #798 on: April 15, 2017, 03:04:37 PM »
  You need to measure the input power.
Get a good capacitor charging it up for the input power. Run your transistor off separate power source  power source. The rest is basic math.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #799 on: April 15, 2017, 03:23:27 PM »
Well, since were are discussing the idea of the creation of a near-instant magnetic field by an inductor, then how can that be accomplished?  In theory there is a way to do it, so how do you go about it?

I am not going to answer the question and I would ask those that know to not answer the question.  The point is to get the wheels in your heads turning and thinking and analyzing and creating.  Many of you have been playing with coils for upwards of 10 years now, so what is the recipe for a near-instant magnetic field from a coil?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #799 on: April 15, 2017, 03:23:27 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #800 on: April 15, 2017, 03:26:48 PM »
Not needed MH,, keep it nice please.
Then is the question more like,, Does the coil when it has no impedance produce a magnetic field?

I think that you could see that a coil that could instantly produce a magnetic field could then have an adjacent coil that is open while the field is created  and then closed to a load would slow that field collapse.

Then go scold Magluvin for suggesting my motives are nefarious.

Quote
Does the coil when it has no impedance produce a magnetic field?

That is another nonsensical question.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #801 on: April 15, 2017, 04:07:25 PM »
Mags said,
Quote
Tesla says in the pat  that the bifi coil will accept an input and ignore the coils induction and will only be impeded by the resistance of the coil a a whole. Read that again and let it sink in.

Actually, what Tesla says in the patent is that _ANY_ and _EVERY_ coil acts this way if the right capacitance and frequency are used.

Quoting Tesla's patent 512340:
Quote
l have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is ,very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small.

"in any ordinary conditions" meant, in Tesla's day, at "low" frequencies, ie under 1 MHz, and with wires and insulations he had available.
 
We have been over this time and time again. The advantage of increased distributed capacitance in the TBF winding was that "the proper conditions" for attaining this counteraction of self induction could be attained at a lower frequency, that is, at a frequency he could reach with his apparatus, and ideally without the use of expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain condensers (capacitors). Today, and for a long time, capacitor technology has improved to the point where the required condensers to attain the "proper conditions" in ANY and EVERY coil are cheap, compact and require no maintenance. Compare if you will a modern strontium-titanate HV doorknob capacitor with a Leyden jar of the same capacitance and voltage handling capability.

Quoting Tesla's patent 512340:
Quote
The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments.  My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object.


"Heretofore", that is, before the patented invention, that is... in "ordinary" monofilar coils.



Is it starting to sink in yet?    ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #801 on: April 15, 2017, 04:07:25 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #802 on: April 15, 2017, 04:11:46 PM »
And... by the way... capacitors take time to build an electric field and charge up to a given voltage, and inductors take time to build a magnetic field and pass a given current. Nothing happens instantaneously.

Quote
The time required for the current flowing in the LR series circuit to reach its maximum steady state value is equivalent to about 5 time constants or 5τ. This time constant τ, is measured by τ = L/R, in seconds, were R is the value of the resistor in ohms and L is the value of the inductor in Henries.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/lr-circuits.html

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #803 on: April 15, 2017, 04:16:27 PM »
1 watt hour of power generates 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance. How come no one could answer this question?

None of these "F" in inductance people can define "Negative Current" either!

Positive power goes in one electrode of the coil and out the other. When the power's interrupted, negative current leaves the coil in the same direction as the positive current did.

The watt-hour is NOT A MEASURE OF POWER. And there is no difference between the current leaving the coil in the same direction when power is interrupted, and the current leaving the coil when the power is on, except that the current when power is on may be steady-state, and the current when power is interrupted is decreasing. Your "negative current" is a misnomer.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #803 on: April 15, 2017, 04:16:27 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #804 on: April 15, 2017, 04:19:54 PM »
I am in total agreement on the fact that the field collapse generates a current in the same direction of the input that built it. Could someone misinterpret a scope shot, seeing the voltage differential change at the time of input connect then disconnect as a current reversal? Maybe thats the bungle here?

Mags

Yes, and not only that but the scope probe adds substantial capacitance and can cause ringing, which complicates the picture considerably. The LED tests that I and TinMan have shown and proposed eliminate these problems and give unequivocal and easy (for most people) to interpret results.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #805 on: April 15, 2017, 04:33:56 PM »
I would say those coils would be lucky to be .10 ohm's.
Looks like plastic coated building wire to me.


Brad
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #805 on: April 15, 2017, 04:33:56 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #806 on: April 15, 2017, 04:39:45 PM »
If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter.  The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity.

The above is nonsense talk and take your ridiculous MIB fantasies elsewhere, don't lay them on me.

I am still asking you to tell me what use a series bifilar coil has in the real world.

Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy.

You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen.


"If you have a scientific mind you should realize that if the coil is one ohm or ten ohms it doesn't really matter." 

But you "made" it look way way worse than the actual outcome. Way worse. If you made that mistake working at a law firm you would be fired. By making it look that bad why would anyone in their right mind even try for themselves once they innocently take in your concocted results as 'fact', that are sooo far of it isnt even funny anymore.


"The point is the energy storage in the resonant cavity is minuscule in comparison the power that is burned off to sustain that resonant cavity."

Id have to say that others here and myself can prove you very very wrong on that statement. My pendulum using the same magnets and same coils I got out of identical speakers, I was able to apply an input of say 5v into the motor side and I was able to get a higher gen voltage out of the gen side, each side a mirror image of the other. Now, if we had to identical dc motors, of any kind, and we did the shaft to shaft, applied 12v to the driver motor, would you ever expect anything above 12 out of the gen motor? My guess is that you would not and say it is impossible. And I agree. Because that situation does not have a resonance component, but my pendulum did, and it did. Wasnt much but it did IT. It did what most everyone would say cant happen no way. But it did. ;) Just to achieve that voltage increase is enough to prove that resonance based transfer is better than a transfer without resonance. Just like a radio station and a receiver, they count on the efficiency of resonance to make transfer more efficient from one to the other.  And I dont want to hear that the voltage increase on the pendulum is not an indicator of any value compared to a non resonant transfer. If before I told you that it would be a higher output voltage than the input with identical components for the drive side and gen side, just like identical dc motors, the same, you would not believe it to be possible? Would you? Heck no because you say that resonance is basically as good as current through an energy wasting resistor. But thats clearly not the case. Still working on improvements on that one. Its funny how little things can change the outcome more and more the more you try. ;)




"Your speculation about a series biflilar coil "giving you an instant magnetic field" is you just fantasizing again.  The very nature of the impedance of a coil and it's refusal to allow for the instant creation of a magnetic field is because it takes real electrical work to create that magnetic field.  There is an energy density in the volume of the 3D space where the magnetic field exists, and that energy comes from the current flow slowly ramping up and overcoming the electrical inertia of the coil and filling the 3D space with magnetic energy."

Your one of these guys, and its stored here on this sight, that degrades the intelligence of Tesla like he wasnt even an Edison. Ive seen it time and again from you.  Well I can see he was not your typical genius. I can see that he was right and Edison was wrong on many things.  I can see that he was well beyond in understanding of these things than just about anyone for his time. But you just dismiss it all like you never dug in and read his brilliant madness. Probably not. Or if you did you would see also. But maybe you have and you just dont wish to give him credit for anything, for 'some' reason. Anyway, Tesla said this is the operation in a series bifi coil winding, and if you dont believe it or agree with it then we will try and see.  I dont think anyone has actually gotten into those 3 ideas with the bifi yet. The only thing I can imagine with a mag field expanding to max field instantly is that we would have to capture that expanded field to get an output.  Like if it were just a bifi coil with the properties that Tesla suggests, then applying input then taking it away would not get us anything because the field max is determined by the current due to coil resistance, and the collapse for each coil bifi or normal will be the same outcome in either case. So the specialty claim by Tesla of the series bifi is that applied input will ignore the coils inductance and is only limited by resistance. So my intelect tells me that if the delay of current build is ignored then current should max out instantly, just like a non inductive resistor, like TK agreed with me on the other day here. So the magnetic field should build just as fast as the currents. What do we to with that? Lets see.

So here we are once again, we will test these new ideas and see what comes of them.  Its not about resonance anymore, on this one, so you can keep that talk down while we get 'our' hands dirty and burned with the soldering iron occasionally. ;D 1 Cap discharge into a bifi.  2 The pri or sec of few turns around the perimeter as an air core transformer and  3 Transformer action between 2 bifi windings. 3 new tests to try and all very simple in comparison to some ongoing topics here.





"You can fill up a capacitor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of an electric field, but you can't energize an inductor quickly and store energy in 3D space in the form of a magnetic field.  It's just the nature of the beast, it's the deck of cards that Nature has given us.  So your fantasies about a "near-instant magnetic field" from a bifilar coil are not going to happen."

The inductor would have to have a maintained input to 'hold' the energy stored in the field. But thats to say longer term than reaching max field. So say we just pulse it with HV from a cap, spark discharge, what ever, IF the field is built instantaneously, then we have the option of shutting of the input in a very short period of time with a coil that should not operate that fast, supposedly as infinitely small as it takes to expand the field, then shut of input and redo. A coil that looks like it can only work at freq of so high, but can be used just like a 3 turn heavy ga primary when it comes to freq of operation. What can we do with that? Nobody knows yet. Well, maybe some do. ;)

So yeah, the inductor is not a storage device like a cap, but I dont see anyone here saying otherwise that you needed to make that statement anyway. ???



Mags

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #807 on: April 15, 2017, 04:41:31 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

You're right, when the magnetic field collapses, the current continues to travel in the same direction except it's the bottom half of a sine wave with a negative value.

No, it isn't. It is DC current of the same direction and polarity as when the DC current is on. Look again at my demonstrations and at TinMan's suggestion. Do it yourself, if you can.

Quote
You, Milehigh, Citfa and Tinman and a host of others continue to confuse people about the nature of A.C. current, like the current that's generated by the Ruhmkorff coil secondary when the current's interrupted in the primary. You are a shameless fraud.


No, I am not, and neither are the rest of the people who actually understand what is happening. It is you who do not understand your chosen topic.

Quote

Lawrence Tseung stated that "Negative Current" is the pathway to Overunity. That's why you continue to help keep people confused about it. You don't want it! Everyone knows you Judas Priests are nothing but paid Lackeys for the "Fossil Fuel Lobby". Go to hell and burn there for all eternity you Satanic fraud, and take your pack Jackels with you!

Preserved once again for posterity. You dare to curse me? Be careful that your curse does not backfire onto yourself.
 
Lawrence has made many claims that have turned out not to be true. Remember the "overunity Joule Thief" fiasco? How about the "overunity kitchen stool"? I do not bother Lawrence because he has a good heart and he will (eventually) admit when he is wrong. Unlike yourself. By continuing in your manifest ERRORS, it is you who must be called a "Satanic Fraud", because you are doing real damage to young minds who may not have the education or practical experience of certain real experimenters and teachers we find on this forum.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #808 on: April 15, 2017, 04:44:54 PM »
Quote
So my intelect tells me that if the delay of current build is ignored then current should max out instantly, just like a non inductive resistor, like TK agreed with me on the other day here.

Whaaat? If we ignore the delay of current build, the current should max out instantly? Whaaaaat? If you ignore the coffee that is in the pot, then there is no coffee in the pot?

Where did I ever agree to that? Link or quotation please.

Nothing happens instantly.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #809 on: April 15, 2017, 04:45:34 PM »
Conrad's work is instructive in many ways. But for the best increase in distributed capacitance the adjacent conductors of the windings need to be as close together as possible,without shorting due to the high voltage differences.
SO using heavy plastic-insulated wire is not going to give as much interturn capacitance as will enamel-coated magnet wire closely wound, all other things being equal.

Yes.  Probably the best would be square profile enamel wire. Also comes in a rectangular kind also. That would increase surface area proximity between windings.  In Telsas drawing of the series bifi is seems to show some heavy insulation, but that doesnt change the fact that it could be better.

Mags

 

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