Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread

[poynt99]

I don't mean to interrupt; but you're using a DC source there... what about when it's AC?   Does inversion really matter?  Normally it will compute to be all on one side of zero; adding capactiance skews it so half of it is negative... how do you get the inverse in DC?

If one is making a claim based on the polarity of a number, then yes polarity matters, regardless if it is an AC or DC circuit. Average power is average power. It can be negative and it can be positive in either case.

[Cap-Z-ro]

cpaz, time's up my friend.

I'll not be lowering myself any longer to converse with you at your level."


Does that slot me, in your mind, above or below the Illuminatti level ?




" The bottom line is this:

If and when you can refute anything technical I have said in this or Luc's other thread, then I may engage. Otherwise, you may as well go piss in the wind.  "


Interesting that you wood employ the term 'piss'...as luring builders into pissing contests just happens to be your method operation. 

You continue in the present manner, I will call you out...and your massive ego will not permit you to resist defending your faux honor.

And thats just the way it is, and the way it will play out.

We all must learn to accept certain realities.



" Now, back to pertinent on-topic issues...

We shall see.

[barbosi]

I've done a quick circuit with a transformer as AC source, the secondary feeding a RC series exactly like Luc minimal configuration.
I took scope shots and instead of using math function U*I like any honorable academic, I used function U/I. Why? because I wanted to see what power source sees. The scope shot is attached, "tan.jpg" naturally looks like tangent function in trigonometry. Another reason is because I don't trust the sophistication of a DVM (sorry PoyntyEgo) when I try to understand what I present.

The Red trace is the voltage, the Yellow is the current and the Green trace is U(t)/I(t) function.

Ladies & Gentlemen, I present you the Negative Impedance shown as the negative spikes in the green trace. Briefly you may remember the efforts of using of negative resistance exhibited in semiconductors by many researchers. I'll let you contemplate about natural occurrence of the phenomena in these circuits. Effortless! Other implications I will let you contemplate on your own, I will not try to impose.

For some other people that are more familiar with graphs used on semiconductors data sheets (I function of U as X and Y coordinates) I attach another plot "xy tan.jpg". "Those skilled in the art" will recognize the regions of negative resistance.

That was with the intent of moving forward, enough with chasing our tails on issues of minuscule importance.

[gotoluc]

Thank you barbosi for you test and sharing your interesting results.

I hope this will help move things along.

Excellent work! once again, thanks for sharing

Happy New Year

Luc

[Farmhand]

First I apologize for going back on my word about not posting any more here, but I just want to ask a simple question to Barbosi, so that I can improve my knowledge.

Barbosi, can you please clearly define what exactly is negative impedance ?

Cheers

[Cap-Z-ro]

From what I have been able to find on negative impedance, the subject would just take this thread off in another direction...thereby causing yet another distracti8on.

Farmhand, I have a feeling you have much to say on the subject, and recommend that you open another thread to discuss the issue there.

That way you don't have to go back on your word.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Regards...

[barbosi]

First I apologize for going back on my word about not posting any more here, but I just want to ask a simple question to Barbosi, so that I can improve my knowledge.

Barbosi, can you please clearly define what exactly is negative impedance ?

Cheers

Before I direct you to text book explanation, I have a few words to say. I do not claim that Luc's disclosure (and I think he does not claim it eighter) that the presented phenomena is something new to the established science. It's just that some aspects are still unexplored, or rather not thought in classes because of the monetary implications on electric power producers. They charge for undeserved "merchandise" or "service" pretty much like the tax carbon which should apply to any breathing living creature, people, wolfs, chickens or dolphins, or ... you name it. Some other companies charge you for delivering poisoned water or food and they want too their little dirty secrets not to be exposed. In this monetary world, many make undeserved money like the insurance companies, or inflate the prices because they simply want more money. Was I clear enough?
If one decides sign out, produce his own electric power and tries to maximize it's effects, then it better looks to unexplored aspects of theories known already by established science.

Now if you are a genuine researcher, here is the accepted theory sold as knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_resistance
It is a starting point but if you cling on difference between "resistance" and "impedance", keep reading down to the chapter "Impedance cancellation" and from now on you won't be spoon fed. This is because I won't go in semantics wars.

Regards.

[Farmhand]

Yeah I already read that and another page, I was wanting you to explain it in Laymans terms and why it is that you mention it, or what benefit or effect it has. No matter maybe Pointy will explain it in simple terms. Thanks for pointing me to a link I have already read, I can use the search box you know.

Cheers

[poynt99]

Hi poynt and everyone,

today we will start the opposite way. Let us hear from poynt the logic of Inverting channel 2.
Maybe this way we can see the light and good chances it will all come together.

Below is the scope shot and circuit of the 1.5k Ohm Resistive load I used in my Tutorial 1 video with probe Inverted.
Please explain why we want the scope to look at a resistive load 180 degrees out of phase, why this is the correct way, how can the scope display a correct math power analysis this way, is the "Mean" or "RMS" the power on the load, if negative why do we want to read it this way, if positive what does this mean? and so on.

Please note that channel 2 probe is set at x1 but scope menu is set at x10. So no need to multiply channel 2 by 10

Thanks for your time

Luc

Luc,

I'm not certain if you're interested in finishing this exercise with me or not, but as you have not responded I can only assume you are not.

I have already tried a few times to answer the above questions, but nothing seemed to click for you. So I thought of another approach, which was to once again go back to a simple DC circuit. As you don't seem interested, I guess we are at an impasse.

In my opinion, understanding the simple DC circuit is absolutely essential to understanding your AC circuit. And I have little desire to restate what I already have to explain the polarities and necessity to invert your CH2 in the scope. It is there in my previous posts.

If you can not, or are unwilling to learn the concepts I am trying to teach with the simple DC circuit, then there is little hope you will understand what is going on with the measurements in your AC circuit.

So I'm asking one last time for your participation in the exercise. Otherwise you'll simply have to wait for my videos to get the answers to all your questions. My preference would be to discuss both, but that is completely up to you.

[poynt99]

This excellent "All About Circuits" page describes precisely what I have been saying, and where I am going with the exercise with the simple DC circuit.

They've already done it all, and almost in the exact same manner I have been presenting the exercise.

LUC, are you familiar with Kirchhoff's Voltage Law? Even if you are, please carefully review the page. Pay particular attention to the orientation of the meter probes for every measurement!

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_6/2.html

[gotoluc]

Sorry Poynt but I'm building something and don't have time to do this now. I didn't have time to do it yesterday either but I didn't think it would of taken so much time. So this is why today I ask you to just go ahead and explain how it all works.

If you can't do that, then I guess I'll have to wait for the video.

Thanks for your time

Luc

[Hoppy]

Luc,

With reference to your first video with the 10R resistor and 5uF cap as load, your DVM is showing 2.25V across the resistor which gives a current of 0.225A. However, your scope reading is showing 229mV across the 0.1R shunt resistor, which gives a current of 2.29A!. Your scope probe setting for channel 2 looks wrong here by a factor of 10x the actual voltage across the shunt resistor. Can you please re-display the scope shots with this corrected.

Although there is a slight change in amplitude of the channel 2 waveform when a capacitor is added, your watt meter is not showing any appreciable change when the alternator is loaded with a reactive circuit. This may to some degree be due to the watt meter not being designed to measure reactive loads accurately and being insensitive to small reactive load variations, especially given the highly reactive nature of the prime mover.
 

[centraflow]

Kirchhofs law does not apply with non- conservative fields.


Here is an explination


http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-02-electricity-and-magnetism-spring-2002/lecture-notes/lecsup41.pdf


and here is a video lecture of which go to minute 33 onwards, it will open your minds "or blow them as the case maybe"


http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-02-electricity-and-magnetism-spring-2002/video-lectures/lecture-16-electromagnetic-induction/


regards


Mike

[gotoluc]

Luc,

With reference to your first video with the 10R resistor and 5uF cap as load, your DVM is showing 2.25V across the resistor which gives a current of 0.225A. However, your scope reading is showing 229mV across the 0.1R shunt resistor, which gives a current of 2.29A!. Your scope probe setting for channel 2 looks wrong here by a factor of 10x the actual voltage across the shunt resistor. Can you please re-display the scope shots with this corrected.

No error, channel 2 setting is set at x10 so the math is actual watts value (no need to multiply by ten)

Luc

[poynt99]

Sorry Poynt but I'm building something and don't have time to do this now. I didn't have time to do it yesterday either but I didn't think it would of taken so much time. So this is why today I ask you to just go ahead and explain how it all works.

If you can't do that, then I guess I'll have to wait for the video.

Thanks for your time

Luc

If you don't have time right now to do this Luc, then why are you asking me to explain it now? It's as if you think I have all the time in the world, and that your time is more valuable than mine.

Reading and understanding the page I linked to IS A BIG PART OF THE EXPLANATION. And you know what? It's not difficult at all! So when you are more interested in understanding where you are going wrong vs. continuing to plow blindly forward, I've given you a place to start that quest.

Parts should be here today or tomorrow, and videos will follow soon after.