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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 362147 times)

poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #225 on: December 31, 2013, 03:37:16 PM »
Brad,

In Canada and US we use 120VAC, but we have two phases coming into the residence. So we effectively have two HOTs and a neutral. If you power something between the two HOT lines you have 240VAC instead of 120VAC.

Glad you will be doing the testing with the generator and hopefully you can explain to Luc why there appears to be no extra load on the prime mover when his phase-shifted load is applied. ION has already explained the effect at OUR as well.

So Luc, I won't be demoing the motor-generator. I will be giving a tutorial on your simple capacitor/load circuit and how to properly measure the power and interpret the results. This will be sufficient to demonstrate where you and others have gone awry with all your claims and assumptions.

And for the record, my assertion about the current probe channel inversion is correct and still stands, despite your disrespectful attempt to undermine my integrity in your video. This too will be proven so that once and for all the nonsense can end about what a NEGATIVE power measurement really means.

poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #226 on: December 31, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »
In the mean time Luc, I've taken the time to make this pretty little diagram for you.

Someone presents you with the following physical circuit and diagram, and asks you to use the DVM to measure the voltage across the 4 components; 3 resistors and one battery.

Would you please indulge me, take two minutes to reply and tell me what color lead from the DVM you would use for each test point (TP) for each component, starting from the left at R1 as follows (R=Red=+, B=Black=-):

R1
TP1: R or B?
TP2: R or B

R2
TP2: R or B?
TP3: R or B

B1
TP3: R or B?
TP4: R or B

R3
TP4: R or B?
TP5: R or B

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #227 on: December 31, 2013, 04:20:47 PM »
In regards to your circuit diagram with this post Luc,what do you mean by both hot sides with 240 volts?. We have 240 here in OZ,and the neutral is 0 volt's,while the active is 240v.

Anyway,i have gathered all the parts to replicate your generator setup,and will start building tomorrow. I will be useing a 24 volt 750 watt DC motor,so as accurate power consumptions can be taken.

Hi TinMan,

glad you're going to experiment.

Canada and US is basically 120vac but larger appliances like ovens, water heaters and clothe dryers use 240vac. So basically our electrical panels have both voltages available. To get 120v you use hot and neutral and to get 220v we combine two separate 120v hot phases and leave out the neutral, so much like a center tap transformer.

Added: I see poynt has answered your question also

Please keep your tests within the range of values of my Tutorial Demos.

All the best and look forward to your results

Luc

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #228 on: December 31, 2013, 04:38:27 PM »
In the mean time Luc, I've taken the time to make this pretty little diagram for you.

Someone presents you with the following physical circuit and diagram, and asks you to use the DVM to measure the voltage across the 4 components; 3 resistors and one battery.

Would you please indulge me, take two minutes to reply and tell me what color lead from the DVM you would use for each test point (TP) for each component, starting from the left at R1 as follows (R=Red=+, B=Black=-):

R1
TP1: R or B?
TP2: R or B

R2
TP2: R or B?
TP3: R or B

B1
TP3: R or B?
TP4: R or B

R3
TP4: R or B?
TP5: R or B

Hi poynt,

your question is:

"use the DVM to measure the voltage across the 4 components and tell me what color lead from the DVM you would use for each test point (TP) for each component"

my answer would be:

it wouldn't matter which color of lead you use of your DVM if you want to know the "voltage" of each components.

Luc

tinman

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #229 on: December 31, 2013, 04:38:33 PM »
Hi TinMan,

glad you're going to experiment.

Canada and US is basically 120vac but larger appliances like ovens, water heaters and clothe dryers use 240vac. So basically our electrical panels have both voltages available. To get 120v you use hot and neutral and to get 220v we combine two separate 120v hot phases and leave out the neutral, so much like a center tap transformer.

Added: I see poynt has answered your question also

Please keep your tests within the range of values of my Tutorial Demos.

All the best and look forward to your results

Luc
Interesting power configuration you have over there. We have our 240 single phase,450 single phase,and 450 3 phase.

I will try and make your reactive circuit,but although i have many MOT's,im limited on cap's-but we will see what we can do. But my point with this will be to show you that the power is already stored within your generator,and a load is already present within the generator-even without your reactive circuit turned on.

The one thing that must be remembered is that in order to create the reactive power,we must first have active or real power. Without it,we have nothing.

tinman

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #230 on: December 31, 2013, 04:45:34 PM »
In the mean time Luc, I've taken the time to make this pretty little diagram for you.

Someone presents you with the following physical circuit and diagram, and asks you to use the DVM to measure the voltage across the 4 components; 3 resistors and one battery.

Would you please indulge me, take two minutes to reply and tell me what color lead from the DVM you would use for each test point (TP) for each component, starting from the left at R1 as follows (R=Red=+, B=Black=-):

R1
TP1: R or B?
TP2: R or B

R2
TP2: R or B?
TP3: R or B

B1
TP3: R or B?
TP4: R or B

R3
TP4: R or B?
TP5: R or B
Now that Luc has answered,i would like a go,as some times what seems simple ,is often not how it is.
As you show a battery,we can asume DC.
So R1-TP 1 or TP 5 black,TP 2 red.
R2 -TP 2 black-TP3 red
R3-TP4 black-TP 5 or TP 1 red.
B1-TP 3 red-TP 4 black.

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #231 on: December 31, 2013, 05:10:02 PM »
Interesting power configuration you have over there. We have our 240 single phase,450 single phase,and 450 3 phase.

I will try and make your reactive circuit,but although i have many MOT's,im limited on cap's-but we will see what we can do. But my point with this will be to show you that the power is already stored within your generator,and a load is already present within the generator-even without your reactive circuit turned on.

The one thing that must be remembered is that in order to create the reactive power,we must first have active or real power. Without it,we have nothing.

Humm... why are you mentioning a MOT when I have written many pages back it's not needed and also have made the 2 new tutorial to demonstrate the effect without any MOT?

Keep in mind that a generator with an exciter rotor field (like I'm using) uses a capacitor to build the electromagnetic field in the rotor. Without that capacitor you have no rotating magnet = no voltage or current.

To conclude the power I getting out of the Alternator is coming from the  exciter rotor field capacitor would it not be like saying we will remove permanent magnets out of a PM Alternator since that's where you're getting your power from.

Luc

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #232 on: December 31, 2013, 05:15:58 PM »
Now that Luc has answered,i would like a go,as some times what seems simple ,is often not how it is.
As you show a battery,we can asume DC.
So R1-TP 1 or TP 5 black,TP 2 red.
R2 -TP 2 black-TP3 red
R3-TP4 black-TP 5 or TP 1 red.
B1-TP 3 red-TP 4 black.

I would agree with TinMan if we wanted to know the "Polarity" of the components. Was that your question poynt?   and wrote Voltage instead?

Luc

tinman

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #233 on: December 31, 2013, 05:21:26 PM »
Humm... why are you mentioning a MOT when I have written many pages back it's not needed and also have made the 2 new tutorial to demonstrate the effect without any MOT?

Keep in mind that a generator with an exciter rotor field (like I'm using) uses a capacitor to build the electromagnetic field in the rotor. Without that capacitor you have no rotating magnet = no voltage or current.

To conclude the power I getting out of the Alternator is coming from the  exciter rotor field capacitor would it not be like saying we will remove permanent magnets out of a PM Alternator since that's where you're getting your power from.

Luc
Because im building your original setup to explain your question Quote:So if you think a power generating station generators will see an extra load if I power my load at a power factor of zero can you or Farmhand then explain why when I connect the same load to my Generator (mini power generating station) the generators does NOT see an extra load.

I am also going to show you that a far greater load can be pulled from the generator ,than that that was drawn by your reactive circuit-without any extra load being placed on the prime mover.
You asked the question Luc,so im going to answer it-with a working device.

But basically what you are doing,is taking some of the power from the exciter circuit to run your reactive circuit.What your reactive circuit disipate's is equal to the power lost in the exciter(tank)circuit of the generator.This is why you see no extra load on your prime mover-you have tuned your reactive circuit to the exciter tank circuit-every action has an opposite and equal reaction.

tinman

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #234 on: December 31, 2013, 05:31:33 PM »
Also-a happy new year to you all.
Us Aussies are already in the year 2014,but i know the other half of the world is yet to catch up lol.

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #235 on: December 31, 2013, 05:39:52 PM »
Because im building your original setup to explain your question Quote:So if you think a power generating station generators will see an extra load if I power my load at a power factor of zero can you or Farmhand then explain why when I connect the same load to my Generator (mini power generating station) the generators does NOT see an extra load.

I don't see why building the original circuit will help answer that question since keep in mind I asked that question yesterday and have not been using a MOT for the past 2 weeks

I am also going to show you that a far greater load can be pulled from the generator ,than that that was drawn by your reactive circuit-without any extra load being placed on the prime mover.
You asked the question Luc,so im going to answer it-with a working device.

Well that will be great to see. Looking forward to your video.

But basically what you are doing,is taking some of the power from the exciter circuit to run your reactive circuit.What your reactive circuit disipate's is equal to the power lost in the exciter(tank)circuit of the generator.This is why you see no extra load on your prime mover-you have tuned your reactive circuit to the exciter tank circuit-every action has an opposite and equal reaction.

This remains to be proven and I have been trying to prove this to myself before I even started this topic. So far I have not been convince of this and this is one of the reasons I'm sharing. So if you can prove it without any doubt then I will be happy to accept it and will have a better understanding of the effect.

So I'm very opened to learning as much as sharing and look forward to your test results.

Thanks for taking the time to do this and share your result

Luc

tim123

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #236 on: December 31, 2013, 06:13:59 PM »
Luc, if your drive motor uses an internal capacitor as a virtual phase - then that will be 'tuned' for load.

If that's the case, and you run it no-load - it will be relatively inefficient, and adding a load will improve it's performance.

Does the drive motor contain it's own capacitor(s)?

Regards, Tim

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #237 on: December 31, 2013, 07:10:01 PM »
Hi Tim,

I think you know the answer to the question you ask me.

If this was the case, would you not see a phase shift in the Induction motor when the load is applied if you scope the motor input?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yudbBBSS58

Regards

Luc

tim123

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #238 on: December 31, 2013, 07:40:27 PM »
No Luc, I don't ask questions I already know the answer to, that would be silly...

As for your question - I don't know the answer to that...

I take it from your response that it does not have capacitors then?

Would you please just describe your motor fully - for everyone reading the thread.

gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #239 on: December 31, 2013, 07:54:03 PM »
Okay Tim,

all single phase Induction motors will have a capacitor. Mine is a 3600 RPM slow start with a 8uf run cap.

Luc