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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: robbie47 on February 02, 2010, 09:53:17 AM
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This thread has been created to discuss and share results of the "Ossie motor" concept.
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Maybe we start with some references to the Ossie Motor.
Here is one link.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm
Maybe someone can provide more?
Question, why is this not just a normal pulse motor?
Bill
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My replication http://www.youtube.com/user/jimboot#p/u/0/HCj7iT_jdHQ (the motor in this vid is running at 800-1000 RPM not 2500). It ran for nearly 22hours before I stoppped it.
currently running an alkaline D cell has dropped to 1.24 after 24hours running around 300RPM. It is a non-rechargeable as I understand it. Currently working on tuning. Have just built a second motor. I'm focusing on reed switch alignment
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Im giving Orbonbon a lil break while I wait for new cores so I broke out the pulse motor. I like these. =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3XLPoeW8OE
its not processed fully on yt yet, just posted
mags
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If they want to convince people that they're onto something other than just another motor, they'll have to give us numbers for input energy (watts) and output energy (watts). Until then, they really are just throwing volts around and volts mean nothing. Is it 1.5 volts at 1 amp (1.5 watts) or 1.5 volts at 5 amps (7.5 watts).
150 volts at .01 amps is the same as 1.5 volts at 1 amp.
Watts is what we need and until they either get volts *and* amps or just watts (which is just volts * amps), it could be 1 watt or 50 watts, but we have no idea.
BTW, they really should go invest in some rechargeable batteries - they're not exactly expensive (what, $8 - less than the magnets cost them, probably).
(edit) Just watched the video and have to say that the rotational speed is... disappointing.
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Hello everyone, ;)
I present myself, I am an electronics engineer since a score of year, specialized in the RFID and the house automation. I am interested in renewable energies and the magnetic engines in particular.
That made not time that I am your let us discuss and your experiments on this forum.
I think that the Ossie engine is nothing other than Bidini and thus engine with impulses, whose couple is given by the formula F = B * I * L * NR winds.
B = Flow in teslat of the magnet.
I = current circulating in the reel
L = length of the wire in front of the magnetic field of the magnet
NR = Number of whorl which cuts the magnetic field.
I think that to increase the energy performances of this type of engine, it is necessary:
- To add in each reel a soft iron core.
- To increase the length of the wire opposite the magnet.
- If one does not wish to have an electromagnet, one buckles the iron core as in Orbo.
- To add more reel to the Stator
Greetings
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I think that to increase the energy performances of this type of engine, it is necessary:
- To add in each reel a soft iron core.
- To increase the length of the wire opposite the magnet.
- If one does not wish to have an electromagnet, one buckles the iron core as in Orbo.
- To add more reel to the Stator
Your soft iron core won't make much difference. The best you'll do is to double the efficiency of the electromagnet and that's if you had a perfect core (supermendur is better than iron, btw).
You'll find electromagnets with hundreds of pounds of holding force for little wattage input. These are lifting magnets that wrap the 'core' completely around the magnet, creating a low reluctance, high permeability magnetic 'circuit'. Opposite pole magnets (like those found in stators of motors) don't wrap around the same way (though some play a similar game and get very high levels of efficiency) and you'll be lucky to get more than a hundredth of the force that the lifting magnets can get for the same wattage input.
The problem that you'll run into with the iron core (the neo mag grabbing it) will be more problem than it's worth to increase the efficiency of the EM by that small amount. This is why electric motors rarely use ferrous cores - they're more trouble than they're worth.
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Solinear ,
The advantage of the solution with a Reel with core or Torus, is that one has two Forces:
- An Attraction force to the low permeability of material constituting the core: Metglas or others.
- A Force of repulsion following the impulse.
The easy way of Ossie is to use the same Reel to generate the impulse and to collect energy due to the rupture of the magnetic field and to hope to reload the Battery.
Precisely, I think that a Orbo engine + Ossie would be more powerful.
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There has been some fantastic replications of this motor already. It is very important that we continue down this road. My personal replication is also doing very well, but at this time my coils do not generate a higher voltage than the battery so the battery does continue to decline slowly. I'm waiting for some new magnet wire, and stronger magnets to show up, then I'll get back on track.
To the newcomers to this motor work, there are a few key things to understand. First, the rotation of the rotor is the free energy. In the most simple design, perfectly tuned, a battery runs an air cored pulse motor. A portion of the energy used to pulse the motor is returned to the run battery. A portion of the generating current from the magnets passing the coils is returned to the battery also. And the BEMF that simply occurs due to Lenz Law is also sent to the battery. Adding all this up, with a perfectly tuned motor is supposed to equal or exceed slightly the energy leaving the battery for the initial pulse. In theory, this is how the battery just keeps running and running without going down in voltage. All the while, the rotor is still spinning. Energy can then be extracted from the rotating rotor in many different ways including simple pickup coils.
Now of course this is just a CONVENTIONAL way to explain what is happening, and just for simplicity. But to be honest, if the battery never runs down and the motor still runs, there is nothing conventional about it!
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Hi guys.
I would recommend to try this design.
Instead of using half-wave rectifier to pickup negative part of AC wave we could use full-wave rectifier to feed the battery with all induced current.
Below is Naudins scope shot of induced voltage in a coils and my suggested circuit.
Have fun,
Frenky
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Solinear ,
The advantage of the solution with a Reel with core or Torus, is that one has two Forces:
- An Attraction force to the low permeability of material constituting the core: Metglas or others.
- A Force of repulsion following the impulse.
The easy way of Ossie is to use the same Reel to generate the impulse and to collect energy due to the rupture of the magnetic field and to hope to reload the Battery.
Precisely, I think that a Orbo engine + Ossie would be more powerful.
I agree. Altho I am a complete noob at all of this. I'll be trialling some of those aircoils with metglas cores. Not sure whether they will get saturated or not but I'll find out.
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If they want to convince people that they're onto something other than just another motor, they'll have to give us numbers for input energy (watts) and output energy (watts). Until then, they really are just throwing volts around and volts mean nothing. Is it 1.5 volts at 1 amp (1.5 watts) or 1.5 volts at 5 amps (7.5 watts).
150 volts at .01 amps is the same as 1.5 volts at 1 amp.
Watts is what we need and until they either get volts *and* amps or just watts (which is just volts * amps), it could be 1 watt or 50 watts, but we have no idea.
BTW, they really should go invest in some rechargeable batteries - they're not exactly expensive (what, $8 - less than the magnets cost them, probably).
(edit) Just watched the video and have to say that the rotational speed is... disappointing.
I'll do some numbers for you tonight. By the way I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply investigating & sharing (open source) my results. I'm not using a rechargeable battery as I wanted to see what would happen if I used a bog standard old battery. So far my 8 year old D cell which had 1.32V at the start of the run is at 1.2V after 35hours of running at 300RPM. The amps are extremely low I know that but I don't have an exact measure yet. I'm simply trying to learn here and hopefully help others with my findings.
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Hi guys.
I would recommend to try this design.
Instead of using half-wave rectifier to pickup negative part of AC wave we could use full-wave rectifier to feed the battery with all induced current.
Below is Naudins scope shot of induced voltage in a coils and my suggested circuit.
Have fun,
Frenky
I completely agree and have already been playing with the full wave concept. Only problem is, unless I am looking at the circuit wrong, doesn't that short out the battery? Maybe I'll go ahead and test it, maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but I have not done it yet because I thought I may need to use reeds to connect the second half of the full wave so they are not connected when the pulse is delivered?
I'll see if I end up shorting out my battery and give it whirl, maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
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Hi.
I see no way that battery would be shortened. I'll make tomorrow some sketchs of current flow in each part of waveform.
Have fun ;)
Frenky
P.S.
I have almost all the parts for this type of motor (even got some 5.5V 1F super caps). Can't wait to start building. :)
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Hi.
I see no way that battery would be shortened. I'll make tomorrow some sketchs of current flow in each part of waveform.
Have fun ;)
Frenky
P.S.
I have almost all the parts for this type of motor (even got some 5.5V 1F super caps). Can't wait to start building. :)
Yeah, I think I may have simply drawn my bridge backwards when I sketched it last week, lol... I see no short in this diagram either. I'll give it a whirl.
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If they want to convince people that they're onto something other than just another motor, they'll have to give us numbers for input energy (watts) and output energy (watts). Until then, they really are just throwing volts around and volts mean nothing. Is it 1.5 volts at 1 amp (1.5 watts) or 1.5 volts at 5 amps (7.5 watts).
150 volts at .01 amps is the same as 1.5 volts at 1 amp.
Watts is what we need and until they either get volts *and* amps or just watts (which is just volts * amps), it could be 1 watt or 50 watts, but we have no idea.
BTW, they really should go invest in some rechargeable batteries - they're not exactly expensive (what, $8 - less than the magnets cost them, probably).
(edit) Just watched the video and have to say that the rotational speed is... disappointing.
My non-rechargeable battery has gained .03Volts today :) very happy with that!
I noticed something in the scope shots tho. Tonight's is missing some of the "artifacts" (sorry don't know what the real term is) in the generation pulse from earlier shots. Does anyone know what they are?
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I see no short in this diagram either. I'll give it a whirl.
Great, so I won't bother drawing current. :D
There is something else going through my mind. Look at the picture. Red surface is input energy and green is output.
Shouldn't this already be considered as OU? I would love to see some scope shots of current out/in of the battery.
Have fun,
Frenky
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@futuristic tell me where I need to stick my probes and I'll do it. The 1st successful circuit I built EVER was my wannabe Orbo rep (I'm 44YO) . Sorry for the dumb questions. I am a total noob but after 45.5 hours of running @300>RPMS & the battery charging I think I can help :)
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Hi Frenky and Captain
don't worry there is no shorting at the battery.
I tried the Futuristic fullwave bridge on the Ossmot and its works fine. As the scope trace (between the coil entry and the + of the bridge) was interesting (see picture), i tried to hook a super cap 2.5 +2.5 10 F (see on the right down side of the picture)
After having charged it with the 4.5 volt alcaline , i disconnected the battery and let the super cap works on itself. After one hour the motor spun very slowly and i stopped the experiment.
Than i reconnected the battery at 4.60 volts and 256 rpm and this morning after 9 hours the battery is at 4.56 volt and 251 rpm Good result but not enough at the present. But i am waiting for finer diodes and perhaps with a schottky bridge ???
wait and see.
Just for fun i enclose a new version of the Fence wire coil Ossmot. Nice torque with 1200 RPM with the orange prop and 7.2 pulsed volts at 1.2 amps. I have made 2 loops of fence wire so i can modulate the torque by coupling in parallel the loops. I will try a third loop to completely cover (shield) the magnet and see the result.
I founfd very instructiv that even if the magnets are partially covered (shielded) by the fence wire coil, the system works
In which thread do i put this one ?
Regards
Laurent
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@futuristic tell me where I need to stick my probes and I'll do it. The 1st successful circuit I built EVER was my wannabe Orbo rep (I'm 44YO) . Sorry for the dumb questions. I am a total noob but after 45.5 hours of running @300>RPMS & the battery charging I think I can help :)
You are doing fantastic work!
To measure I/O energy just put 1 Ohm resistor between + of the battery and the wire to the circuit.
Then measure voltage on it with scope and you should easily see input/output energy.
Have fun,
Frenky
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@woopy:
Very nice work. ;)
About the rectifier... I also think that you should make one from the BAT42 Schottky diodes as they seems to be perfect for this type of motor.
Frenky
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Hi Woopy,
I do think you can keep your fence wire results in this thread too, for it is a variant of Ossie motor and this thread is about the Ossie motor.
I am afraid the circumstances at STEORN DEMO LIVE thread have changed and some people consider the Ossie motor there as an off topic.
Ossie clearly expressed his opinion on this:
- In regard to the motor I am showing you relating to this thread, my perspective is that it was born out of this thread and should remain here as a reference to the benchmark of performance that Steorn has shown us so far. Until they show us superior performance of their motor to my motor then I think my motor should remain here in this thread were it was born.
While I agree with his opinion, I am afraid the circumstances may affect Ossie (and some others) mood on appearing in the STEORN thread and if this is so, it would be a big loss for all of us. I do hope he sooner or later will write again in any thread.
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Re on your diode question, Frenky answered and I could add that in a diode bridge it is always two diodes in series that are conducting so the forward voltage drop doubles, hence the importance of the diode types. Old germanium types, though hard to find and expensive, could also be considered, but four BAT42s are also fine.
rgds, Gyula
Hi Frenky and Captain
don't worry there is no shorting at the battery.
I tried the Futuristic fullwave bridge on the Ossmot and its works fine. As the scope trace (between the coil entry and the + of the bridge) was interesting (see picture), i tried to hook a super cap 2.5 +2.5 10 F (see on the right down side of the picture)
After having charged it with the 4.5 volt alcaline , i disconnected the battery and let the super cap works on itself. After one hour the motor spun very slowly and i stopped the experiment.
Than i reconnected the battery at 4.60 volts and 256 rpm and this morning after 9 hours the battery is at 4.56 volt and 251 rpm Good result but not enough at the present. But i am waiting for finer diodes and perhaps with a schottky bridge ???
wait and see.
Just for fun i enclose a new version of the Fence wire coil Ossmot. Nice torque with 1200 RPM with the orange prop and 7.2 pulsed volts at 1.2 amps. I have made 2 loops of fence wire so i can modulate the torque by coupling in parallel the loops. I will try a third loop to completely cover (shield) the magnet and see the result.
I founfd very instructiv that even if the magnets are partially covered (shielded) by the fence wire coil, the system works
In which thread do i put this one ?
Regards
Laurent
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Woopy
nice fence wire motor. Those mags look like you could try to wrap them as toroids. That would be interesting. =]
The disappearing magnet
Mags
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You are doing fantastic work!
To measure I/O energy just put 1 Ohm resistor between + of the battery and the wire to the circuit.
Then measure voltage on it with scope and you should easily see input/output energy.
Have fun,
Frenky
Thanks!
I'm at 48.5 hours on my d cell. I'll let it run overnight & tmrw night (20 hours) I'll get a scope shot for you. I'll have to stop it to do the test so i'd like to give it one more day. Unless I get my new one running in the meantime!
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@woopy I love your designs mate. I own & run a successful Aussie Internet marketing company during the day, so I don't have time to replicate your designs but keep them coming :) The motor I'm building now is focused on creating a better tuning mechanism than my last motor.
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D Cell has dropped to 1.21 overnight. 59hours still at 300RPM
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@ Gyula
yes you are right that Ossie wanted to stay in the ORBO DEMO... but as i follow this thread too , i am happy to transfer our experience here as it seems to became a gigantic war against what i think we are seeking
here.
Perhaps what is a problem in the OU is that every particpant want to be reconised as THE ONE who had the idea FIRST. But as we are all in a really unusual quest we have to not only accept the other idea but store them in our brain-withdraw, because perhaps in one day or perhaps one year, combined with another idea this can make a 1+1=4 synergy. OK stop for philosopfy and go back to what is really interesting
Today at 13.00 the Ossmot running at 257rpm with the battery of the previous experience at 4.55 volt (just to remind you ,that battery already run the same motor more than 30 hours)
back home at 20.30 battery 4.52 volts but rpm increased to 263 and at 22.00 battery down to 4.51 volt and rpm always at 263 ???
so my questions are
1 - is it possible that the scope probe energises the motor or eventually take out any energy ?
2- how is it possible that the RPM increases and the voltage in the battery decreases ??? if it is not a temperaturew of battery or anything else??
3- Does a multimeter add or diminish the voltage when measuring ??
Now i put a Resistor (1 ohm) at the entry between the Battery + and the circuit . And i put the scope probe across the resistor and on the scope picture at 5 volt div it is FLAT
and the same config at 20 mv (milivolts ) div , it shows very small current movement in and out of the battery but only one way and very very small !! ??
Does it mean that no current goes bak to battery ???? but in this case the battery goes down but the rpm not ??? bad night for me in prevision !!!
To Ossie
if you accept please aggree to come with us, i think we can do something great together.
This thread is already followed by a lot of people all around the world and JLN has already made a version 1.3 of the Ossie motor with integration of Futuristic fullwave bridge idea.
hope that this morning i will receive my schottkys hehe
@ Mag
good idea , i can't prevent me to to make an test of a wrapped ring magnet, I made l 7.2 volt direct impuls on the 38 turns 4mm copper wrapped neo magnet. The results = small mouvment (but it works) and strong finger burning ouuuille !! but anyway interesting.
good luck at all
Laurent
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....snip
Today at 13.00 the Ossmot running at 257rpm with the battery of the previous experience at 4.55 volt (just to remind you ,that battery already run the same motor more than 30 hours)
back home at 20.30 battery 4.52 volts but rpm increased to 263 and at 22.00 battery down to 4.51 volt and rpm always at 263 ???
so my questions are
1 - is it possible that the scope probe energises the motor or eventually take out any energy ?
2- how is it possible that the RPM A and the voltage in the battery decreases ??? if it is not a temperaturew of battery or anything else??
3- Does a multimeter add or diminish the voltage when measuring ??
Now i put a Resistor (1 ohm) at the entry between the Battery + and the circuit . And i put the scope probe across the resistor and on the scope picture at 5 volt div it is FLAT
and the same config at 20 mv (milivolts ) div , it shows very small current movement in and out of the battery but only one way and very very small !! ??
Does it mean that no current goes bak to battery ???? but in this case the battery goes down but the rpm not ??? bad night for me in prevision !!!
....snip
Hi Laurent,
Re on your questions
1) While it is best to disconnect probes and meters from the circuit being tested on the long run, normally a scope probe involves a 10MegaOhm resistive load paralleled with a 15-20 picoFarad capacitance---a very negligible load on most of the circuits. In rare cases maybe the very sharp nanosecond pulses (if such are produced by the circuit) can get attenuated by the mentioned capacitance. Also, in rare cases the ground clip of the probe may bring capacitive current from the mains voltage the scope is operated from, via its power supply, in spite of even well designed scopes. So the answer is yes for both in extreme cases: a probe may take out or energize the circuit under test, but I have to repeat: do not let the probe connected to the circuit on the long run. In cases when this mains capacitive feed-through is a suspect, it is good to try to run the scope from a DC/AC inverter that creates the mains voltage for the scope from a higher capacity battery, or use a scope that can be run from a battery.
2) I can only guess one possibility: due to the (even though low) back pulses to the battery chemical processes take place inside the battery and this is nonlinear process.
3) Again, the inner resistance is around 10 MegaOhm but the parallel shunting capacitance maybe higher than for a probe so this capacitance may have bigger affect on the pulse type waveforms, may diminish real values. Rarely the longer measuring wire tips may pick up induced voltages either from the circuit itself or from the nearby other appliances or from the mains, but the affect normally is small.
You may wish to use a 10 or 100 Ohm measuring resistance instead of the 1 Ohm, to inrease current measure sensitivity and may see more coming back.
rgds, Gyula
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@laurent My motor displays similar characteristics. It went from 1.20 up to 1.23 but no deviation from 300> RPMS.
I also hope Ossie contributes here. I have no such delusions of thinking "I thought of that 1st" :) Some pix of my motor that has now being running 61.5 hours on the d cell. You'll notice I don't have the coils square. I find it runs faster in this configuration. On a 6V it has run at speeds of around 800-1000 RPM for 22 hours.
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Have tried Ossie but with two coils only.
Seems ok, running for long time; maybe with 4 coils it gets better…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZKxu5qTJI
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@ Jimboot,
Did you purchase your coils prewound somewhere, or did you just make a very well crafted coil with perfect inductance as to what Ossie was using? If you ordered them, could you share where you got them from?
@all,
The reason I ask is that I know where I can order the coils that Ossie is using, but I would much rather order a spool and make many coils. Problem is, the coils I wound are not right. They are 20 guage I think, but when I measure them they are 1.4 ohm each. Ossies I think was .5 ohm each. So what size wire has anyone here used and got the desired results? Mine still perform well, but the battery never goes up. I am also not getting a higher generator voltage than the run voltage which is exactly what my problem is, hince the reason I need more info on the coils.
Also, any details on magnets would be good for other replicators. That of course is another part of my problem, I need to add more or stronger magnets. Got that handled though.
Overall, keep the replications coming! This is great stuff guys. I'm still tinkering with my orbo replication, but to be honest I just don't get the performance I get with my Ossie motor, or even my regular bedini for that matter. I really think the Ossie motor is where it is at. It's easily replicated, and a great project for a beginner in this field. It's almost easier to get results than the SSG circuit.
I've got some awesome additions to my circuit I will be sharing shortly, but I need to get my coils and magnets right so I can test it before I post it.
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Have tried Ossie but with two coils only.
Seems ok, running for long time; maybe with 4 coils it gets better…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZKxu5qTJI
Great work! There is a problem with the schematic you show in the video though. I assume it is just a drawing error, but if not, you may want to fix your circuit. For proper recovery of the collapsing field, and to protect those reed switches, the diodes need to be hooked up on the other side of your reeds. Check the attached photo to see what I mean. The way you have it in the schematic, your reeds would be arcing, which is not good for them, and a clue that you are not capturing that bemf. You've probably got it hooked up correctly and just drew it wrong though. Good work though, nice to see another replication, each one is different with new clues to the puzzle!
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Just got home. OM running at 310RPM 1.21V 67hours running time.
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Hi guys.
This is probably one of my happiest days because J.L. Naudin is thanking me on his website for the full-wave rectifier idea. I have been following his work for about 10 years now and I have great respect for him.
@captainpecan:
Ossie and Jimboot are using this coils:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=LF1326
Specifications:
- Inductance: 1.8mH
- (L)DCR: 1.05 Ohms
- Wire Dia: 0.8mm
- Core: Air
I will make coils by myself because there is no way I could wait for the package to get from Australia to Europe. ;D
I also got all the material for Ossie motor so over the weekend I will be able to do some testing.
Frenky
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@captainpecan
I got the serial number from the coils off Ossie's original vid & since he is an Aussie I know he shops at Jaycar. So I got them there. You can also order directly from them here http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=LF1326&keywords=lf1326&form=KEYWORD If anyone is going to buy from Jaycar in Frankston ALL the staff there are now familiar and educated in the the Orbo & Ossie MOtor & have seen a working demo of the Ossie. Also some of the staff in the Cheltenham store are now familiar with the principles :D They currently have a shortage of reed switches tho oops! SPreading the word. Trying to get more replications happening.
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Have tried Ossie but with two coils only.
Seems ok, running for long time; maybe with 4 coils it gets better…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZKxu5qTJI
Wow very impressive! Are the blades sitill on that fan? Wouldn't the drag slow it down? Great work.
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Can someone direct me to a resource that explains in principle how to replace a battery with a cap? I need to understand principles etc. Thanks.
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Hi.
First you must get a good capacitor. I suggest this one (22 Farad 2.5V Super Capactor):
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=RE6704&CATID=51&form=CAT&SUBCATID=861
Then you must charge it. Make circuit of 1.2V battery, 5 Ohm 10W resistor and 55F capacitor in series like in the attached circuit.
Double check the + and - on battery and capacitor.
After 5min the capacitor will be fully charged and you can just replace the battery running the motor with this capacitor.
Have fun ;)
Frenky
P.S.
Some resources:
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor.htm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/capchg.html
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good morning all
@ Gyula
thanks very much for deep explanation . I am at a good school here.
Here enclosed the current test with a 100 ohmn resistor at the entry . The motor spins much slower as expected and the trace is much better on the scope.
and now the question what does exactly shows this trace ?? pulse output from battery or pulsed input to the battery is it showing the voltage or only the image of the current ??
@ Futuristic
Hehe Frenky you are a celebrity now well done and thanks for sharing
@ Jb
Futuristic made a good explanation for the supercap
here a picture how i hooked my 2 x 10 F 2.7 volt supercap in serie to get 5.4 volt nominal because i use a 4.5 volt battery. If your battery is 1.5 volt you need only one.
I don't know if 10 F supercap is perhaps too small capacity because the tests i made with them are not very impressive . I can notice a slowing of the motor after some minutes already. Is there perhaps too much resistance in this small supercap ?? Any idea ?
i am still waiting my schottkys
regards
Laurent
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Voltage on the capacitor is dropping exponentially with time: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/imgele/capdis.gif
So if you don't recharge capacitor effectively the motor will quickly slow down due to weaker and weaker field B of the air coil.
This test should probably be done when you are positive that current going back into power supply (battery, capacitor) is bigger than current going out.
Frenky
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I accidentally dropped a small mag close to my motor. DOH! It has locked onto the rotor somewhere and slowed revs to 200. voltage initially dropped to 1.20 and now is bouncing between 1.21 & 1.20 I am now seeing some the trough pulses without the artefact I saw in earlier post. Now seems stable back at 1.21. What are these bumps?
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You probably have some wire too near to the rotor.
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Maybe the lil bumps are that small magnet on the rotor
Mags
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...
The reason I ask is that I know where I can order the coils that Ossie is using, but I would much rather order a spool and make many coils. Problem is, the coils I wound are not right. They are 20 guage I think, but when I measure them they are 1.4 ohm each. Ossies I think was .5 ohm each. So what size wire has anyone here used and got the desired results?
....
Hi,
Here is a link that allowes a good insight into multilayer air core coil winding details. http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/inductor_info.html
If you enter the 1.8mH (Ossie coil from Jaycar) in the inductor window and click on Generate Results, a lot of useful data will appear in a new window, showing different wire diameters that will all give 1.8mH, with the included geometry for each wire size.
It calculates the coil from Jaycar pretty close: see the 0.84mm wire diameter that gives 0.98 Ohm DC resistance (Jaycar coil has 1.05 Ohm from the 0.8mm wire). (Thanks to Futuristic for writing the Jaycar coil data.)
With this online air core coil calculator you can figure out very quickly the coil sizes for any needed self inductance, getting wire diameter, length, DC resistance etc.
rgds, Gyula
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I'm using similar online calculator for air core coils: http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm
Frenky
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Thanks @woopy, @futuristic @mags. Ok I have some wires to close to the rotor for sure. I will get some caps today. Motor back at 1.20 this morn. 83 hours.
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...
Here enclosed the current test with a 100 ohm resistor at the entry . The motor spins much slower as expected and the trace is much better on the scope.
and now the question what does exactly shows this trace ?? pulse output from battery or pulsed input to the battery is it showing the voltage or only the image of the current ??
Hi Laurent,
To answer your question, I assume you clipped the crocodile ground clip of the scope probe to the 100 Ohm resistor's leg that continues in the wire going towards the coils via the reed switch and the tip of the probe was tied to the resistor leg that went directly to battery positive pole, ok? If this is so, then what you see in the scope shot picture is the voltage drop across the 100 Ohm that is caused by the current going into the coils when the reed switches are ON, so it is the pulsed output current from the battery. The pulse shape you see is a voltage amplitude but the real current shape is the same because on a pure Ohmic resistance that has but a little reactance the current shape is preserved in the voltage drop shape.
(The peak current is roughly: 1.5V/100 Ohm=0.015A multiplied by the duty cycle. I averaged the peak Vb=1.92V from the scope shot as 1.5V because the triangle goes from roughly 1V to 1.92V and the rest amplitude from zero to up the 1V under the triangle must be added to the 0.5V averaged from 1 to 1.92).
Your duty cycle is about 23msec/118msec=0.19 (pulse duration/period of a full pulse) This gives an avarege current of 0.015*0.19=0.0028A i.e 2.8mA
From your 1 Ohm current measurement scope shot, previous page, the peak voltage drop Vb=50.4mV, using roughly this value gives 50.4mV/1 Ohm=50.4mA and when multiplying this with the duty cycle, 11msec/60msec=0.18 it gives 50.4*0.18=9mA average current consumption. These calculations are approximate because the pulse shapes are not clearly rectangular.
Supercap: if you have the exact type and manufacturer of your supecaps, then surely there must be a data sheet that includes the equivalent series resistance, ESR for them, look for it on the maker's site.
rgds, Gyula
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Thks Captain, yes it's drawing error, I followed schematic from Naudin site.
Will try with more magnets and load on rotor.
Thks.
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@futuristic this was posted on the Yahoo EVGRAY list
"cooling fan motors usually have permanet magnets in them, and you can feel the notchy rotation to them as the cores in there line up with the magnets so there is some loss using a cooling fan motor as a chasssis unless that is differnt type of cooling fman motor with no permanent magnet in there.
Everythting sounded good, but at last part of pager Naudin says that its not OU
they need to try FWBR AC legs across the switching, and DC into 2nd battery stack.
Run on 3V and charge 1.5V paralell battery stack, or run on 6V and charge 3V parelell batteyr stack or 12V and 6V paralell or 24V anbd 12V paralell batteyr stack etc etc etc
DC from FWBR goes direclty into 2nd battery stack
ONE LEG OF AC LEG OF FWBR gets switched slightly delayed to the motor coil pulse - about 5 degrees retarded approx.
When this sweet spot is found, motor will race up in speed, draw will drop way down, and 2nd battery stack gets charged with as much power as what is running motor in first place if not more...good idea is to charge 4 batteries in paralell while runing on one or two...
charging the same battery that runs the motor, and not seperatre battery stack is always a touchy not "proof positibe" way to do it - voltage rise is not battery charge...but still, I bet using nicad or lithium ion batteries although is OU jsut as Ossie has it going now since they can charge up so fast and last so long on a charge and like those spikes to charge with more than lead acids.
I wonder if his draw to motor goes up when the charging occurs or stays the same with or without the charging.
ciaoK"
What do you think?
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Just got home motor had been as low as 1.19 at lunch time it is now back up to 1.21 & bouncing back to 1.20. 90 hours running time
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Just got A motor had been as low as 1.19 at lunch time it is now back up to 1.21 & bouncing back to 1.20. 90 hours running time
Hi Jimboot,
You are doing GREAT work regardless of your experience because what you have working and have demonstrated already is greater than many experienced experimenters and researchers have ever done!
The motor appears to like a particular operating voltage depending on it's construction parameters. Most builders will start with their motor running at a voltage that's either higher or lower than what the motor likes. If your battery voltage is higher than this point then as the battery runs down the motor should hit this point. If your battery voltage is lower then it will never hit this point.
The motor is essentially an AC device. So the frequency of operation and the matching impedance of the motor to the battery are important key factors in finding that resonant balance point where the motor just keeps running and running...
But I am not advocating that builders start trying difference voltages to start with. It is important to first get the efficiency as high as possible for your build in terms of the lowest input power possible for the best and reasonable rate of RPMs. IE, if you can get the motor to run on zero milliamps, then the voltage doesn't matter all that much then, does it?
One more thing for people to get used to in regard to extended run times. Depending on the battery type, batteries themselves have a built in self discharge factor. This self discharge factor is hightened when AC is sent through the battery. This is what this motor does. So even if your battery is discharging very, very slowly, you are still producing a greater amount of energy out of the motor
Regards,
Ossie
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@Ossie:
Great to have you back with us. :)
@Jimboot:
About that quote. I need some time to study it because English is not my first language and I don't wan't to missunderstand anything.
BTW: Your results are just amazing. ;)
Have fun,
Frenky
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Just can't bring my self to stop this motor! When I saw the volts had gone up I just had to tweak the reeds. I realise my own energy input into the circuit is tantamount to a hand crank but the levels are continuing to rise. An what point is my energy input negated?
The way I tune my Ossie is to hold the coils on with large self tapping screws. I then site the reed switches on the backs of those screws. The screws do 2 things for my motor that I have observed. They act as mini-toroid and as a trigger mechanism for my reeds. Whilst the motor was bouncing between 1.20 & 1.21 I realised I could switch to a 2V scale on the multimeter & get an extra decimal place -well duh I hear you say. I'm learning :) So I could se that the volts were cycling up and down. I thought about what Ossie said re getting your gen pulse larger than the activation pulse and moved the reed connected directly to the neg side of the circuit half a cm further along its terminal connected to the screw and made sure the glass of the other reed was directly in contact with the screw.
The voltage is now cycling between 1.223 & 1.227. It has been climbing steadily for the last 45min hour. In the last 15min it has risen .002 The gen pulse is a lot longer now as well. I'll take some more pix of the reed positions & upload. It just rose another.01
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Battery at 1.236 now.
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Wowww!!
this page is one of the best i have ever seen in this forum.
First thanks to Ossie to bring back here your fantastic knowledge and experience
thanks Gyula thats exactly what i needed to learn. I can now much better understand what is going on
Jb yes go on the good work
Frenky i am with you i have just received my schottkys and some coils and a inductance meter
and now at work
bravo to all
Laurent
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My non-rechargeable baterry is now at 1.24. Since retuned without disconnecting it has risen .008 per hour.
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Yaaaay! @ossie is back! Missed your post entirely because I was so excited about my motor! Great to have you back. Just got my second one started up. Not tuned yet and the rotor is running a little rough. Thanks for all your great advice. That really makes sense to me about the motor fitting to battery. I never got the results from my ^V that I am getting from my old dcell.
I bought a stethoscope to listen to the coils and switches. Sounds like a steam train starting up! I love it. Great to have you back. This is what I do for a day job http://stewartmedia.biz if you are ever in Melb. Our offices are down Frankston way. I feel like the boys at Jaycar down here are always waiting for the next installment when I walk in :)
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btw @ossie I am still using your org circuit. Haven't even put a resistor in it yet let alone a rectifier or Shottkys. I'm building the new motor with the current JLN circuit. edit: Battery at 1.245. Is there any significance in the battery being a bog standard alkaline?
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My non-rechargeable baterry is now at 1.24. Since retuned without disconnecting it has risen .008 per hour.
Great, what is now all the run time together?
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battery has stoped rising at 1.244. It got as high as 1.245
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Run time is now 95.5 hours RPMS are 243. Voltage has risen again to 1.246
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96Hrs 243 RPM Volts 1.248 I have disconnected the scope as it seems to draw power
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1.250 I can set my watch by the voltage rises. .002 / 15mins.
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Hi All,
It is great to see many people replicating and working on this motor. I am also still working on it but had to do other real world stuff this past week. But I am keen to get back to working on it and am doing so when I can.
Regards,
Ossie
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Voltage at 1.254
Ossie motor 97 hours run 243RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4txgB8w1Tk
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@ossie Back to Jaycar tmrw :) A daunting circuit for me! I like the way you've seperated the coils tho.
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1.259 volts 96.5 hours 243Rpms Midnight here going to bed
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OOps was just filming another vid & bumped the reeds. The motor stopped. I fixed the reeds & restarted. Oh well I suppose 97.75 hours is ok. I have taken the opp to reposition the neg switch even closer to the coil battery at 1.260
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Hi all
I have installed the shottkys (BAT 43) as a per original Ossie design (no fullwawe bridge) for a first test.
Than i have concentrated the tuning on the CURRENT curve .That is i inserted a 1 ohm resistor between the battery plus and the entry of the circuit. The stick probe on the plus on the battery and the croco probe just after the resistor.
So my best result until now is that trace, (pix 1) which shows a very short and low impuls, with a negative curve (prabably charge inpulses ??). Which , If i have right calculated (thanks Gyula explanations) should roughly represents 3 milli amps at 4.44 volts that is about 13 milliwatts.
And the probe on the coils give the second pix trace. The impulse is something out of the gen curve and give a 10 volts very short kick back spique)
Now i am making a test and we will see what happens.
for info
my coils are resistance 5 ohm (each) inductance 3.94 mHenry (each) about 40 meter of 0.4 mm copper wire
neo mag diameter 20 mm 10 mm thick N42
the rotor is a RC car wheel (60mm diameter ) mounted on a HDD drive motor without magnet and winding (no cogging at all)
Reed switch 250 volt 1.2 amp in serir with a 10 ohms resistor (at entry) to reduce the current (these resistors must also be tuned)
Schottky diode BAT 43
@ Jb
I have noticed that you have mounted the coils of your new motor with metal (ferromagnetic material). Is it right? if yes don't you think this could interfer through the air core and change the result ? Just for info
good luck
Hi Ossie
What is this new circuit. Does it mean a new motor with driving coils in serie and trigger coil as per your Orbo replication ? Or is it a solid state Ossie generator new project ?? Thanks for sharing
Laurent
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hello
good work on the motor..
if you want to use diodes instead..
use the Schottky diode BAT 46
it has better stats than a Germanium Diode
it has a lower foward volt than the 43
but it also will go 100 volts
have fun
it looks interesting
robbie
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Hi Ossie
What is this new circuit. Does it mean a new motor with driving coils in serie and trigger coil as per your Orbo replication ? Or is it a solid state Ossie generator new project ?? Thanks for sharing
Laurent
Great to see your looking in on us Ossie! Any and all help is greatly appreciated. This motor is so damn simple to get running, a bit tricky to get the battery to go up in voltage, but anyone can hit the bench and get results with this! I love it, thank you for sharing!
His new circuit is simply a circuit will run with alternating North and South magnets around the rotor. The trigger coil generates a voltage accross the base of a set of transistors as the magnet passes. Depending on the polarity of the magnet, it will switch on one of two sets of transistors. This effectively just swaps the polarity of the battery back and forth as the magnet polarity swaps. That's how I'm reading it anyway, feel free to correct me if not entirely right on that one.
Here is a quick diagram of the circuit I am working on. It simply adds a second set of reeds that will be activated as a magnet APPROACHES the coils, while the other set activates as the magnet leaves the coils. Two pulses for every magnet pass. Should double the rpms, for nearly the same average input. Doubled rpms equals higher energy coming out of the generator side back into the battery. I've got something else I'm working on also I will try and share when I get it done. But this should be a pretty simple addition that most anyone can do. For this diagram, all magnets must be same polarity facing out.
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@ Jimboot,
Keep going and ignore all the negative you've been getting elsewhere for your work. Your doing a fantastic job, and moving along rather quickly in your learning. As Ossie said, you have already achieved more than many have ever been able to do. And never feel dumb for asking a question you think may be stupid. If it helps you understand an aspect of something, then by all means ask it! There are some of us out here that actually welcome the furthering of progress and knowledge. Keep going, maybe soon you can try swapping the battery for a cap. But do not expect the same results right out of the gate. A capacitor will lose nearly 50% of the energy transferred, where as at least in my understanding, a battery appears to accept the charge more efficiently. But that of course is just my opinion from my own bench tests in the past. Although when you get a self runner with a cap, it cannot be refuted, as the voltage on a cap will not lie to you like a batteries can from surface charges.
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@Ossie,
The motor resembles the Lutec somewhat. I was thinking that cresent shaped or "banana" rotor magnets, pulsed at the 20% passage distance might generate additional charge in the coil with the remaining 80% passage. A feat accomplished by the metal contacts of a mechanical commutator in the Lutec model.
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@woopy Yes I am using metal screws see my earlier post for what I think they do.
@captainpecan Thanks for the encouragement. You guys have been sensational. I don't let others hiding behind keyboard sniping from the sidelines bother me.
Oh and by the way....
MY BATTERY VOLTAGE HAS RISEN to 1.3V OVERNIGHT. It has gained .04Volts . This is the same battery that previously ran over 97Hours. Before I started the 97hour run it tested at 1.32V
The vid I filmed last night is here pretty rough as my good cam is at the office. This is filmed with my web cam . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJj6902CMBw
This circuit still has no resistors or schottkys or rectifier. It is Ossie's orig circuit. Yet it has risen overnight running at 240RPM
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Great to see your looking in on us Ossie! Any and all help is greatly appreciated. This motor is so damn simple to get running, a bit tricky to get the battery to go up in voltage, but anyone can hit the bench and get results with this! I love it, thank you for sharing!
His new circuit is simply a circuit will run with alternating North and South magnets around the rotor. The trigger coil generates a voltage accross the base of a set of transistors as the magnet passes. Depending on the polarity of the magnet, it will switch on one of two sets of transistors. This effectively just swaps the polarity of the battery back and forth as the magnet polarity swaps. That's how I'm reading it anyway, feel free to correct me if not entirely right on that one.
Here is a quick diagram of the circuit I am working on. It simply adds a second set of reeds that will be activated as a magnet APPROACHES the coils, while the other set activates as the magnet leaves the coils. Two pulses for every magnet pass. Should double the rpms, for nearly the same average input. Doubled rpms equals higher energy coming out of the generator side back into the battery. I've got something else I'm working on also I will try and share when I get it done. But this should be a pretty simple addition that most anyone can do. For this diagram, all magnets must be same polarity facing out.
Hi CP,
The new circuit I posted uses the same motor contruction with all magnets N facing out. The only difference is you can now disconnect just one of the series drive coils and use it just for a trigger coil instead. The circuit drives the rotor using both attraction AND repulsion of the rotor magnets and is a true bipolar AC motor.
This circuit requires no tuning...
Your 4 reed circuit can do be the same thing. So we just need to get some performance tests and results of each to compare solid state versus mechanical switching.
Regards,
Ossie
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Just disconnected the battery and measured it. 1.36Volts! Before I hooked it up over 100 hours ago it was 1.32v!
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Ok it ran for 3.5 mins on the cap. Now to rebuild with a resistor, shottkys & rectifier
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11min on the cap. I really must build the latest version!
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Gentlemen:
I've followed this thread with much interest, and it's time for me to say something that hopefully will help us all achieve OU out of this.
Please see the PDF from this link: http://www.mullerpower.com/Srinivasan/PDF/Secret_Of_Sankhya_Part_2.pdf
This PDF gives very good mathematical clues as to how to achieve OU. It has the calculations based on actual real-life factors like speed of light, which is the same speed at which the electrons, protons, photons and every other particle moves in space.
I think this applies to this thread because we need to find the best ratios, and the optimum circumference size, optimum diameter, etc, so the EM pulses, BEMF or CEMF do (hopefully) follow the same principle, and SWING (back and forth - back and forth) at the optimum frequency calculated in the document, which is 536 cps, by tuning all the timings, etc.
I think we need to work together on the calculations, optimum parameters, circumference diameter, etc.
I hope I am making sense and you're still with me.
I know it can be a brick to read the complete document. Because of that, I copied below some for you. I have copied below just the portions of text that may interest us here.
The fun begins in page 381.
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....a self-charging battery that can remain on load perpetually ..(linking sentence removed).. will provide incontrovertible proof of Sankhya theory to scientific investigators.
(bottom of page 382):
If the battery current is switched on and off sharply, in the circuit configuration shown (page 383), the batteries remain charged despite having a load that consumes considerable power. The battery acts as a large capacitor with a very small resistance (comment from techieatwork: Lithium batteries do this more naturally, they have less internal resistance), that generates a large pulsing current. The efficiency of transformation of the pulsing current is directly proportional to the sharpness of the switching off process.
...
The green device represents the pulse transformer and the red unit the rotary high amperage sharp cut off switch operating at 536 cps. The 4 numbers 12 volt batteries are cyclically switched into a series connection of 24 volts while the remaining two remain in parallel to maintain 12 volts. In the next cycle the series parallel state is changed over . In effect the series 24 volt charges the 12 volt parallel units within 1/536 of a cycle and immediately change over to discharge across the other configuration. At resonance the batteries act as mere capacitors while the space field around the conductors act is inductive devices to provide the pulsing current. The transforming ratio of the secondary can be designed to match the load plus losses of the circuit thus imposing no power-load on the batteries.
Experimental models have been test run successfully. Interesting equations confirming the effect described above are given (within, page 384).
...
Overunity generation of power is only possible if the reaction time to initiate the next cycle is eliminated. Similarly perpetual oscillation can be possible if the time cycle to transfer the reactive output before the start of the next cycle is eliminated.
The delay leads to the necessity of increasing the rate of transfer of the force needed to keep the system operating. A time lag keeps the initiating cycle following the sequence of action whereas it should be ahead. The conditions needed to sustain perpetual action or produce incremental power can be met only by using the systems internal energy to short-circuit cyclic time delay.
...
A pendulum or swing is kept in perpetual motion by changing the state of the driving force or momentum in time.
A child on a swing can keep the oscillations going continuously if it moves its body in time to initiate the next cycle at an accelerated level.
A pendulum clock does the same thing by triggering at the right moment but with an additional energy input to overcome the loss due to resistance.
An internal combustion engine varies output with the same fuel input if the ignition system is advanced or retarded thereby proving the point of timing conditioning output for the same input.
------------------------------------
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@techieatwork The maths are a little beyond me at this stage which is why I'm taking the physical approach of tweaking & tuning. However I agree with you. It is finding the right frequencies for the rotor and also the switching. The circuit I had running for over 100 hours charged my battery. Before the run it was 1.32 it is now resting at 1.43. I achieved that primarily through tuning. Angling the coils & positioning the switches. My circuit is still using non-schottky diodes, no resistors or rectifiers. I believe the gold is in the tuning. Welcome aboard & thanks. I look forward to the responses of those more qualified than I.
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@techieatwork The maths are a little beyond me at this stage which is why I'm taking the physical approach of tweaking & tuning. However I agree with you. It is finding the right frequencies for the rotor and also the switching. The circuit I had running for over 100 hours charged my battery. Before the run it was 1.32 it is now resting at 1.43. I achieved that primarily through tuning. Angling the coils & positioning the switches. My circuit is still using non-schottky diodes, no resistors or rectifiers. I believe the gold is in the tuning. Welcome aboard & thanks. I look forward to the responses of those more qualified than I.
Two things I find very interesting about your setup are... First, your generated voltage does not appear to be higher than the pulse voltage from your scope shots. So I'm not real sure your landing any of that generating voltage into that battery. And second, you are using a disposable battery I believe that is not designed for recharging.
Even with these two things possibly going against you, you are still getting awesome results and the battery is going up. Now of course you must be getting more coming back on the collapse than you are putting in, maybe entirely from the bemf adding to the pulse. The most interesting part is the fact that I cannot come up with a CONVENTIONAL theory as to why you are getting those results. Unless of course we later find that most of that voltage on the battery ends up being surface charge, then I think there may be something else happening here that we have not put our finger on yet. But I do not think it is surface charge because that battery is under load constantly, and surface charge does not like that very well.
The point in bringing this all up, is the fact that when you get your motor tweaked with all the goodies, and it's generating more voltage from the turn than the pulse, your motor could get really interesting fast! Remember, you have not even started using pickup coils or anything to make use of the rotational energy! Your knocking very hard at the door of OU, eventually the door is going to open...
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Thanks CP. I stuck my rechargable D cell which I have yet to recharge as I forgot to buy a Dcell recharger. It reacts differently to the alkaline. In a good way. Whereas the alkaline would cycle up & down over 4 values over 7 mins before climbing to the next value the rechargeable only bounces between 2.
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Today I tried 12mm OD metglas squareloop toroids inside my aircoils on OM2 but no joy. I also have not had much luck with the optimised circuit. I have tried it on 2 machines but I just ca't seem to tune tune it. The circuit is firing in the coils but the tuning for it is not the same. I have tried 2 other batteries on the OM1 and the behaviour is very diff even at the same volatge. like Ossie said in an earlier post. I am currently charging a AA that came with my tacho at 235RPM. Which is good because I don't have a AA battery charger. :)
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Vid I uploaded last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HIX-oBQ190
Stefan made a point in the vid about the polarity of the coils. I didn't see anything in Ossie's circuit about polarity so I just hooked them up. Assuming that the inside lead is positive here is the polarity of current setup (pun intended) they in are in series -+ +- -+ +-
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Hi jb
very good looking bravo
I am now testing the output of the schottky bridge so i have disconnected the plus and minus of the bridge to get directly the output of the coil generation and untill now my best result is 15 % of the total input and i wonder if the power to spin the rotor makes the difference to go on the grail (OU)
I am trying different voltage and it seems that at each different voltage the timing must be tuned and can be dramatically in or out the purpose for what we are seeking.
I think to try the solid state switching of Ossie , but i need some parts doc.
so far i see i imagine
Trigger transistor NPN 2n2222A
power transistor NPN 2N 3055 with a 10 k resistor at base
power transistor PNP MJ2955
poti 5 k
and 7.2 nominal volt ??
And now i am wondering if my coils, with an inductance of 3.94 mh each and 5 ohm resistance are OK . as the Ossie and JB and JLN are 1.8 mh and about 1 ohm ??
Anyway a very instructiv weekend pefect under snow and in front of the scope
good night
just forget did you pay attention to a recent post of LARRY C on the steorn thread about a torroid ala Ossie with one wired shorted. Have a look
perhaps why not for a fence wire Ossmot ??
good nigh
Laurent
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Hey Woopy, I agree solid state switching would be so nice. This thing is a bitch to tune! However I have noticed something with this AA I'm running atm. Last night in the vid the voltage was climbing, just before I went to bed it began to drop. I left it alone to see what would happen . It was under 1600 when I got up this morning now it is steadily climbing again & currently at 1718. Off to get some different batteries. I wonder how this would go on a watch battery? I'm thinking faster but will report back.
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Just uploaded a vid explaining my coil polarity. Thanks Stefan! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahmehREJWWg This explains why the angling of my coils works!! The 1.5V AA in this video is now at 1.827 volts rising at the rate of .001/minute. This is charging about 7 times faster than my D cell. Ok WHilst I've been writing this post battery is now 1.833
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In the last 10mins this AA has risen to 1.890volts WTF!
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My 1.5V is now at 2.07Volts. My wife has told me I'd better not blow anything up!
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Och, she canna take no more Jim, she`s gonna blow! :)
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Och, she canna take no more Jim, she`s gonna blow! :)
I'm giving her all she got cap'n. Actually multimeter battery just died. Stuck another on and it was reading around 1.5. So sorry for the excitement folks. I have got it running on a silver oxide watch battery doing 220RPM tho :)
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if you had capacitor(s) instead of batteries, you would see huge increase in voltages...
and it is then, when you needs to dump (switch) the excess into extra batteries..
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Another test with Ossie motor with 8 mags 4 coils and 2 RS.
Still have a voltage drop.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mopozco#p/a/u/0/89LRtKy00_U
“My 1.5V is now at 2.07Voltsâ€.
- Congs, Jim, it's amazing!...
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@ Jimboot, if I may make a suggestion. If you would like an easy way to switch batteries without stopping your motor, you might want to try using a DPDT switch. You could simply hook a battery holder to each side of the switch, and a simple flip of the switch will easily switch between the two battery holders. So you can easily place a more dead battery in the other holder, flip the switch, and remove the freshly charged battery. Also a good way to give a battery a couple hours rest to see what it does, while keeping the motor running. I hope this makes sense. It's also a good way to hook an amp meter to a circuit without disconnecting it. You could even use the same concept to hook a capacitor in place of the battery without stopping the motor. Then if you see the cap draining to fast, you just flip the switch back to the battery, until we get a circuit figured out that works to charge caps also. Caps are tough to replace batteries with, because they are just not efficient energy catchers as batteries seem to be. Just a couple simple thoughts that may help.
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Another test with Ossie motor with 8 mags 4 coils and 2 RS.
Still have a voltage drop.
“My 1.5V is now at 2.07Voltsâ€.
- Congs, Jim, it's amazing!...
Nice work! Something does seem in common so far with those of us that have not gotten the voltage to rise yet. Of course make of coil, and magnet strength I would imagine are pretty important. But what I am referring to is rotor diameter. Every rotor I have seen that has not quite been able to charge the battery up while running, has had a larger diameter. Ossies, and Jimboots are both small diameter rotors. Now I know there are so many variables, but maybe this could be a clue to get the rest of us on the right track and get the same results. Then we can start modifying at will. I think I will be trying a smaller rotor myself.
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@ Jimboot, if I may make a suggestion. If you would like an easy way to switch batteries without stopping your motor, you might want to try using a DPDT switch. You could simply hook a battery holder to each side of the switch, and a simple flip of the switch will easily switch between the two battery holders. So you can easily place a more dead battery in the other holder, flip the switch, and remove the freshly charged battery. Also a good way to give a battery a couple hours rest to see what it does, while keeping the motor running. I hope this makes sense. It's also a good way to hook an amp meter to a circuit without disconnecting it. You could even use the same concept to hook a capacitor in place of the battery without stopping the motor. Then if you see the cap draining to fast, you just flip the switch back to the battery, until we get a circuit figured out that works to charge caps also. Caps are tough to replace batteries with, because they are just not efficient energy catchers as batteries seem to be. Just a couple simple thoughts that may help.
Thanks CP. Awesome. That's exactly what I need. Just trying to work out where to hook up my probes to get a 2nd trace happening. What would be the original coil polarity of the OM circuit? I want to compare & if I have arsed the correct polarity woohoo.. but I doubt it as I am getting different results. Also with your replication will you be able to adjust coil orientation? I have found this is really useful in tuning this motor & my Orbo reps. See my latest vid re coil orientation & coil polarity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahmehREJWWg I'd love your feedback.
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Another test with Ossie motor with 8 mags 4 coils and 2 RS.
Still have a voltage drop.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mopozco#p/a/u/0/89LRtKy00_U
“My 1.5V is now at 2.07Voltsâ€.
- Congs, Jim, it's amazing!...
Hey Congs how long have you run them? I have found that some batteries have dropped before they rise. Great rotor! Also what is the polarity of your coils? Mine is -++--++- . For me a smaller rotor allows me to adjust the coils so they have more influence on rotation. Where to you have your reeds? I didn't see voltages rise or have an indefinite runner (switched off after 97.5 hours) until I bought a scope & followed Ossies advice about shortening the activation pulse.
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Hi Jb
I will try your coil polarity. Mine are - + - + - +
If i understand correctly you said before that your multimeter showed about 2 volts on your Ossie-motor battery and than the Multimeter battery died, than you replace it with a new one and than your multimeter showed 1.5 volt on the Ossie motor battery . So my question is , is your Ossie motor battery really charging during the run or is it eventually an artifact due to the multimeter old battery. Or other said , with the new multimeter battery is the Ossie battery still going up under run ?
Thanks and keep up the good work
Laurent
-
@ Jb
Ouups i forgot one coil
my polarity is - + - + - + - + that is my coil are in serie and yours are not in serie Right ?
laurent
-
Hi Jb
I will try your coil polarity. Mine are - + - + - +
If i understand correctly you said before that your multimeter showed about 2 volts on your Ossie-motor battery and than the Multimeter battery died, than you replace it with a new one and than your multimeter showed 1.5 volt on the Ossie motor battery . So my question is , is your Ossie motor battery really charging during the run or is it eventually an artifact due to the multimeter old battery. Or other said , with the new multimeter battery is the Ossie battery still going up under run ?
Thanks and keep up the good work
Laurent
The batteries are still going up. I think the 2V was the anomaly because of the meter. I'm running one now (diff meter) & seeing similar rises of .008 /hour. Getting the tuning right tho is the hard part & getting the scope shot below. WHen the pulse looks like this, the battery charges but I'm having more success with non-rechargables.
-
Hello JB,
Can you carry out this test: to fix at interior each Coil a iron noyeau or a metal stem, (nails) would make the deal.
Thank you and continue your good work
8)
Mustapha
-
Hi Jb
just made a quick test with your config polarity
I have not changed the orientation of the coil yet (they are glued)
but the result is DRAMATICALLY different as with the coil in serie.
first when i rotate the rotor by hand , there is no more AC generative curve. When i short the coils there is absolutely no braking of the rotor. (no BEMF ??)
the scope at the coils (pix 1) shows something very different as per serie config very near from your scope shot, with sharp down kickback spiques.
But the output at the + and - of the bridge rectifier (pix 2) is impressive, with strong positive spique at the beginning of the pulse and very strong one at the end ( more than 60 volts) my battery is 7.2 volt.
I tried to short cut the bridge and it glued the reed in an hawfull ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
yep !! what are the community thinking about it ?? Is there these spiques which can charge the battery ???. And not the generative curve ??
Will try to orient the coils as jb did
stay tuned
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
When the coils polarity are -+ +- -+ +- then they work against each other from the induced voltage point of view (assuming the 4 magnets are all with the same poles facing / passing them) so in theory there should not be any output voltage due to induction. This should be true for the flux collaption when the reeds are switched off. Very interesting you still see those big spikes.
Could you put an electrolytic (or non-electrolytic) capacitor across the diode bridge output? make sure you place a load a simple resistor of some hundred Ohms also across this capacitor so that the unloaded voltage should not ruin the electrolytic (unless you have a 120V DC rated cap of some ten microFarad, uF or so).
You may wish to check the diodes with a diode test range of your DMM because when you did the short and your reed made the ZZZZ, the diodes may got ruined?
If you happen to have a 12V or 6V or whatever incandescent light bulb of a few Watts power at hand, they would also be good for the load instead of the resistor.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi guys.
I've been quite busy this weekend. :)
I made an air core coil from 20AWG (0.8mm) wire. Resistance is 1.5 Ohm.
Rotor has diameter 20cm and has six 20mm x 10mm disc magnets on it.
I tried many configurations... Half/full bridge rectifier... but have soon found out that it works best without any diode.
So just battery, reed switch and air coil. I got big current pulses back into battery with this setup but reed switch died quickly.
So I changed my design and now I'm using relay. See attached circuit.
Now motor is running well and I get almost all the current back. On some pulses I get back more and on some less.
Attached is one pulse that returned more than was put in.
I also attached raw scope data.
Later I will also upload photos and video.
Anyway looking good. ;)
Have fun,
Frenky
-
Forgot to tell that scope shots were taken across the 1 Ohm resistor.
-
And the relay is 8A, 250V (schrack rp 410006)
http://www.onlinecomponents.com/buy/SCHRACK-TYCO/RP420006/
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Hi Gyula
Thanks for your very good advice.
I checked my schottky diode they work OK but i decided to change against a stronger bridge rectifier (i don't know the datas)
but the trace at the bridge output is really impressive , spikes up to 272 volts (pix 1). I could easily and shortly charge a 22micro F 400 volt electrolitic cap to 230 volts.
An than i tried to put a neon bulb across a 2000volts 1 F and it light very good and than i put the neon bulb direct on the bridge (pix 2)
than i reconnected the bridge to the circuit and here the trace , the battery is my old 4.5 volt alcaline batt which is now at 4.18 volt (pix 3)
I make a long run test now
@Futuristic
keep us informed of progress thanks
Regards
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
Thanks for the infos, very interesting.
I would not use but for temporary test the stronger diode bridge because its is most likely designed for 50-400Hz frequency and also the forward voltage drop may be excessive. Now it is good of course, once you have those bigger peak voltages coming from the coils.
Do you use a series resistor via the reeds from the battery when the reeds energize the series -++--++- coils? If yes, how many Ohms?
Could you check that if you place a more decent load across the 22 microF capacitor, then it increases the current consumption from the battery? On a decent load I mean a 5-6 or 10 kiloOhm resistor, and assume then the 230V will go down from the capacitor to a few volts? If so, then what does some hundred Ohms load to the cap voltage and current consumption from the battery? Sorry, just curious... :)
You wrote a 2000V 1F capacitor, is it really 1F, I wonder, a typo?
rgds, Gyula
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"Hey Congs how long have you run them? I have found that some batteries have dropped before they rise. Great rotor! Also what is the polarity of your coils? Mine is -++--++- . For me a smaller rotor allows me to adjust the coils so they have more influence on rotation. Where to you have your reeds? I didn't see voltages rise or have an indefinite runner (switched off after 97.5 hours) until I bought a scope & followed Ossies advice about shortening the activation pulse"
- Running so far, but with the voltage drop (.03/24hrs).
Polarity - all same poles are outwards, i believe it's optimal, otherwise they will work against fields in coils.
RS from local electronic shop, but they are low voltage, easy to weld; looking for a good ones, hi-power, say up to 3A, they do not make them higher amperage.
So, do you have voltage rise on THE running bttry?
Thks.
cheers
-
Picture of my motor. Videos are uploading. :)
Frenky
-
Videos:
Basic setup with one coil, reed switch and battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUs7sFLyw44
Using relay for switching current on and off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YhNLgmGO0
Setup with two reed switches so that pulse is shorter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elEG09CUFN4
Have fun ;)
Frenky
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Hello JB,
Can you carry out this test: to fix at interior each Coil a iron noyeau or a metal stem, (nails) would make the deal.
Thank you and continue your good work
8)
Mustapha
Hi Mustapha I already have the coils fixed with screws. Is that what you mean?
-
"Hey Congs how long have you run them? I have found that some batteries have dropped before they rise. Great rotor! Also what is the polarity of your coils? Mine is -++--++- . For me a smaller rotor allows me to adjust the coils so they have more influence on rotation. Where to you have your reeds? I didn't see voltages rise or have an indefinite runner (switched off after 97.5 hours) until I bought a scope & followed Ossies advice about shortening the activation pulse"
- Running so far, but with the voltage drop (.03/24hrs).
Polarity - all same poles are outwards, i believe it's optimal, otherwise they will work against fields in coils.
RS from local electronic shop, but they are low voltage, easy to weld; looking for a good ones, hi-power, say up to 3A, they do not make them higher amperage.
So, do you have voltage rise on THE running bttry?
Thks.
cheers
The best I have had is about 0.008 volt rise per hour.
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@Gyula
No there is no resistor between battery and reeds. The one you see on the pix is a rest of some previous test.
The system is now on a long run testing , so i will try your prop tomorrow.
Yep of course you are right it is a micro owen cap 2000 volts and 1 micro F.
Now for the diodes I have in lab some 1n4007 some BY 550-800 some 1N 5408 and BAT 43 and BAT 48 have you a proposal to make a better Bridge or Half bridge. And what do you think of Futuristic setup without diode at all and coupling the reed with relay ??
just for info the long run test began 5 hours ago and i just wanted to prepare for the night and disconnected the amperemeter and the RPM go up and the scope trace (pix 3 on previous post ) is now almost flat. Bloody instrument they can lead to very bad error.
so i will let the motor for the night
good night
Laurent]
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Videos:
Basic setup with one coil, reed switch and battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUs7sFLyw44
Using relay for switching current on and off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YhNLgmGO0
Setup with two reed switches so that pulse is shorter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elEG09CUFN4
Have fun ;)
Frenky
Hi Frenky,
If you use the circuit you showed in the schematic on the previous page, and you do not use a diode for rectifying the pulse due to the collapsing flux of coil, then I cannot understand how the pulse from the collapsing field goes back to the battery?
Because when the relay is switched off, the (flyback) pulse is created immediatly but by then the relay contacts are open, they should be open to brake current flow.
Thanks, Gyula
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@ Jb
Ouups i forgot one coil
my polarity is - + - + - + - + that is my coil are in serie and yours are not in serie Right ?
laurent
My coils are in series.
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"The best I have had is about 0.008 volt rise per hour".
- To me this's it!! Giddy-up again :)
If you have rise, so it can run steady for weeks...
Can you show this exact setup with values of components? Pls.
Thks,
cheers
-
Hi Frenky,
If you use the circuit you showed in the schematic on the previous page, and you do not use a diode for rectifying the pulse due to the collapsing flux of coil, then I cannot understand how the pulse from the collapsing field goes back to the battery?
Because when the relay is switched off, the (flyback) pulse is created immediatly but by then the relay contacts are open, they should be open to brake current flow.
Thanks, Gyula
I was thinking the same thing. What is happening though is that he is getting the high voltage sparks inside his relay now, instead of in his reed switch like before. He quickly burnt his reed out this way, and I sort of expect his relay will have much shorter life also. BUT, the collapsing field is still making it through the circuit across a spark gap now. So who knows for sure what is really happening as far a battery charge. But we will certainly take any all data we can get, you never know where that one little nugget of data will come from that changes everything.
@ Future,
Overall though, I just am not sure this is more efficient circuit yet. By all means, keep going, I do not mean anything negative for sure. It's just that you are also loosing energy to run that relay that is not recovered at all, you must also take that into consideration.
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"The best I have had is about 0.008 volt rise per hour".
- To me this's it!! Giddy-up again :)
If you have rise, so it can run steady for weeks...
Can you show this exact setup with values of components? Pls.
Thks,
cheers
I'll do a vid but based on Ossie's orig circuit I am currently using
2 x N5408 diodes (non-schottky)
4 X LF1326 coils. (in series)
2 x mini reed switches.
How my motor seems to differ from others:
I buggered up the coil polarity so mine are -++--++-
I have attached the coils using a large self tapping screw which act as a small attraction the mags
I hang my reed switches on or near the screws as I find it easier to tune.
I angle the orientation of my coils so that the + side is closest to the mag.
I have built a schottky circuit but just realised where I made my mistake and how I need to rebuild it.
I am looking forward to getting this one up and running then I'll do a live stream a la Orbo! ( I have my own streaming servers :))
-
...
Now for the diodes I have in lab some 1n4007 some BY 550-800 some 1N 5408 and BAT 43 and BAT 48 have you a proposal to make a better Bridge or Half bridge. And what do you think of Futuristic setup without diode at all and coupling the reed with relay ??
...
Hi Laurent,
For capturing the most (flyback) pulse from the collapsing flux, the diode must be very fast switching type, BAT 47 and 43 are ok, they have a reverse recovery time trr of around 10ns (nanosecond) but they have low forward current and reverse voltage ratings. VR=40V and IF=350mA for BAT47 and these are 30V and 200mA for the BAT43 type. These ratings are low for such applications here, there is risk for burning them in you circuit with way over a hundred Volt voltage peaks.
Will advise some types tonight.
You other diode types are designed for normal 50-60Hz mains rectification, not fast switching types at all, probably like your beefy bridge.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi guys.
Yes the point is in the spark in the relay. The spark gets the current back to the battery.
What I have now is basically Newmans motor in a little different setup.
Please don't get too much distracted by my different setup because I think there is something very interesting going on in the original Ossie motor, because I can't explain how can Jimbot get such a good results even though his scope shots show something that should be quite inefficient motor. So something weird is definitely going on and it needs to be researched.
But I will go my own way with this setup because I understand it better and I hope I will be able to get better results easier and faster.
I hope you don't mind me posting my results in this thread even though I'm going in different direction.
Have fun.
Frenky
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Hi guys.
Yes the point is in the spark in the relay. The spark gets the current back to the battery.
What I have now is basically Newmans motor in a little different setup.
Please don't get too much distracted by my different setup because I think there is something very interesting going on in the original Ossie motor, because I can't explain how can Jimbot get such a good results even though his scope shots show something that should be quite inefficient motor. So something weird is definitely going on and it needs to be researched.
But I will go my own way with this setup because I understand it better and I hope I will be able to get better results easier and faster.
I hope you don't mind me posting my results in this thread even though I'm going in different direction.
Have fun.
Frenky
By all means, keep us updated. Afterall, the whole Ossie motor was a drift from an Orbo motor. You never know what can come out of something, just don't lose your way back if it don't work out!
@Jimboot and all,
I finally got mine running and tuned so the battery is climbing in voltage. At this time I am using the original Ossie circuit, without any resistors. I increased the strength of the magnets and decreased the rotor diameter. I am using 2 shottky's to recover with, still waiting for some more shottky's to make the bridge.
Here is what I have learned so far from my setup. If I use a rechargeable battery, it still declines slowly. If I use a non-rechargeable, it increases in voltage. I have ran this now for about 12 hrs, and it is acting exactly like Jimboot's so far. I did hook it up to a 10F cap, and it declines also. I did some variation testing to see if I can pinpoint what is going on, and I'm afraid a hunch I had so far appears to be correct at least from my testing so far.
When I left the multimeter hooked to the circuit for 1 hr, the non-rechargeable battery climbed up in voltage .012 v. After 2 hrs, it climbed up another .013 v. I disconnected the multimeter and let it run for 1 hr. Briefly touching the multimeter to the battery after 1 hr showed a DECLINE in voltage of .06 v. After 2 hrs, it declined another .05v. Leaving the multimeter hooked up to the circuit for the next 1 hr ended up showing an increase of .012 v again.
Putting my results together with what we have heard from Jimboots replication, leads me to believe there is a good possibility that the multimeter is charging that battery. I still of course do not have an oscilloscope as of yet, so there is still the chance my motor is not quite tuned exactly right, but I am showing similar results to Jimboot anyway. Couple this with the fact that Jimboot just happened to kill the battery in his multimeter recently, makes me wonder if this could be what is happening.
Dont get me wrong, this is not a drawback to our building if my theory is correct about the multimeter leaching some juice into the circuit. Just simply that we may have a little better understanding of what is going on, so we can be more careful to avoid skewing our measurements, so we can tune more properly.
@Jimboot, would you mind testing this theory for me, and leave your multimeter disconnected from the circuit and let me know if it begins to decline in voltage for you again?
The rpms are about 250 rpms, but my whole rotor is to shiny at the moment for a good measurement, so I'm just eyeballing it at the moment until I dull down the shine.
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While increasing voltage can be indicative of increasing energy, without a good measure of wattage input vs. wattage output, there's no real way to state unequivocally that you are getting more energy out than you're putting in.
Another question is, even if you are getting more output than input, how much would it cost to build it up to a point where you are producing enough energy to be usable. 1 watt is barely worth mentioning, particularly if you have to spend $150 in parts. You could consider a reasonable measure of cost to be $1.50/watt generated. If you can get it to 100 watts for $150 in parts, then you're talking about something that is not only usable, but financially feasible at a large scale. For a comparison, larger wind power setups are usually around $1.50/watt generated. Smaller systems (hundreds of watts) can be as expensive as $6-8 per watt generated and ends up being barely worth purchasing for anything other than a moral perspective unless you are in Hawaii or a similarly expensive location.
At $.03/kilowatt hour (what coal costs), here are the payback times for a power generation system:
$1.50/watt generated: 6 years (17.5% payback per year)
$2.50/watt generated: 9.5 years (10.5% payback per year)
$3.50/watt generated: 13.6 years (7.5% payback per year)
$4.50/watt generated: 17 years (5.8% payback per year)
$6/watt generated: 23 years (4.4% payback per year)
$8/watt generated: 30.5 years (3.2% payback)
So, basically, unless you can't get it down to $5/watt cost, you'll have a hard time making this system worthwhile and you'd almost be better off putting your money in a mutual fund. Basically every watt translates to $.263 per year (at $.03 per kilowatt). If you want to consider the cost of buying the electricity (retail cost vs. wholesale), then every watt translates to around $.75 per year (figuring an average of just under $.09 per kilowatt across the US). The good news is that, retail in the most expensive states, the payback rate gets better and better, until it becomes efficient even at $8/watt generated (less than a 10 year payback rate - states like Hawaii, where retail energy is in excess of $.20 per kilowatt hour).
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When I left the multimeter hooked to the circuit for 1 hr, the non-rechargeable battery climbed up in voltage .012 v. After 2 hrs, it climbed up another .013 v. I disconnected the multimeter and let it run for 1 hr. Briefly touching the multimeter tothe battery after 1 hr showed a DECLINE in voltage of .06 v. After 2 hrs, it declined another .05v. Leaving the multimeter hooked up to the circuit for the next 1 hr ended up showing an increase of .012 v again.
This statement has me a little concerned. I'm wondering what the impact would be of just attaching a multimeter to the battery and watching the voltage for several hours.
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Hi CP,
A multimeter when set for voltage is just a high impedance device.
Could it be that the multimeter leads with the meter's high impedance at the end is acting as some sort of dipole or REAC?
Perhaps longer leads with a variable impedance at the end would allow you to tune into the best energy recovery for this motor???
Perhaps this will allow you to get rechargable batteries to charge as well.
Many more things can be done with this motor once we start looking at the battery differently.
Would this then mean that an earth battery could run this motor indefinately as well?
How about an old dead and sulfated lead acid battery?
Regards,
Ossie
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@ solinear,
While I do agree with pretty much everything you just said about financial feasibility of clean energy technologies, I do think it is a bit premature to include the work of the Ossie Motor into it at this stage. There is much more work to be done, including COP measurements, and using the torque to generate energy also. We are simply not close enough to include this work in your analogy. Afterall, MOST mone spent on research for free energy devices has no return on it all. That's just the nature of research and prototyping. But I do feel it is very much worth the few bucks to keep working on it.
As for your comment on leaving the multimeter connected to the battery. You are thinking exactly like I am. In fact I already learned that lesson a couple years ago with some capacitor experiments I was doing. I had left a 0 volt capacitor hooked to a multimeter that was turned off overnight. The next day I ended getting bit by that cap when I grabbed it wrong. So I tested it out, and the multimeter actually was charging the capacitor up to 9 v. This was simply because the multimeter was using a 9v battery. Does this happen with all multimeters, I have no idea. I just know it did with mine, but mine were not Fluke meter's either, just simple cheapo's. And I am still using cheap meters. So I do believe it will probably charge the battery directly in the right scenario. Is that was is going on with Jimboots? Don't know, just wanted to share what I believe is happening in mine.
I am not sure why it does not seem to do it with rechargeables though? It seems to only be doing it with disposables. Maybe it is something to do with the internal resistance of the battery?
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@CP No probs. I got my bridge circuit running last night. No resistors atm in it tho. Back on the D cell that ran for 100hours it has been going about 8 hours now doing 300RPM. I'll disconnect the meter now and duck back home at lunch time. Man I missed this thread last night when the site was down! If it happens again you can reach me thru my Youtube channel or twitter @jimboot. Also if you just Google "ossie motor", you'll find me :) Hope to catch up on some of the other reps today.
CP thanks for confirming the battery differences. I felt at one run even my scope hooked up was somehow consuming power. I don't think this current setup is tuned for charging yet maybe just low voltage drops. I'll know in a few hours. I've tried silver oxide, lithium, NiMH,SLA, alkaline & bog standard. I get the best results with last 2.
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Many more things can be done with this motor once we start looking at the battery differently.
Would this then mean that an earth battery could run this motor indefinately as well?
That's a very good point. I was thinking about once I get a bit further with my setup, I was going to try the earth battery. I have noticed on many documents discussing bedini's work over the years, there are many indications of an earth ground that most don't notice. If he was getting good results, then I see no reason why the same concepts would not do just as good or even better with the Ossie Motor.
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Hello all
what an intersting thread here full of variable
theres is now 2 congigurations of the coils polarity
1-
the serial one that is for a 4 coils device - + - + - + - + which is the original Ossie's device and in this case , if you shortcut the coils you get a very strong BEMF and strong braking of the rotor, I say it is impossible to free wheel the rotor by hand. And so far i understand, in this config you have to tune the reed to insert the pulse motorising energy INSIDE the generaitve AC curve.
And in this case we have to know if the AVERAGE generative energy can overcome the TOTAL input energy ??
with this config, on my really crude testing , i am not able to get more than an average 15 % of generative back energy have you better results ??
2-
is from Jimbot 's contra serial config with - + + - - + + - where the coils are facing eachother. In this config the rotor can be almost free wheeling with shorted coils. And the extra energy comes only from the kickback spikes In this config the BEMF is almost zero and on the scope a small trace is there but nothing to do with the generative trace. But the kickback trace are very impressive.
And in this case we have to test if the very strong but very short Spikes (up to more than 200 volts) CAN BE TRANSFORMED in energy to overcome the input energy.
Yep !!!
good night
Laurent
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Nice looking rig CP. HDD rotor?
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what an intersting thread here full of variable
theres is now 2 congigurations of the coils polarity
1-
the serial one that is for a 4 coils device - + - + - + - + which is the original Ossie's device and in this case , if you shortcut the coils you get a very strong BEMF and strong braking of the rotor, I say it is impossible to free wheel the rotor by hand. And so far i understand, in this config you have to tune the reed to insert the pulse motorising energy INSIDE the generaitve AC curve.
And in this case we have to know if the AVERAGE generative energy can overcome the TOTAL input energy ??
with this config, on my really crude testing , i am not able to get more than an average 15 % of generative back energy have you better results ??
2-
is from Jimbot 's contra serial config with - + + - - + + - where the coils are facing eachother. In this config the rotor can be almost free wheeling with shorted coils. And the extra energy comes only from the kickback spikes In this config the BEMF is almost zero and on the scope a small trace is there but nothing to do with the generative trace. But the kickback trace are very impressive.
And in this case we have to test if the very strong but very short Spikes (up to more than 200 volts) CAN BE TRANSFORMED in energy to overcome the input energy.
Yep !!!
good night
Laurent
Geez I really do have to learn how to use my scope properly! Very interesting Laurent, thanks.
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@ Gyula
here some result of my latest config
i am now trying new coils with o.3 mm copper and 9.8 mh and 14 ohm, and the config is JB config - + + - - + + -
and so far i understand your questions i made this test
- I disconnected the plus and minus of the bridge from the circuit
and i put the scope probe on the plus and minus
basic data
one 22 micro F 400 volt across + and - of the bridge rectifier
Main battery 4.5 volts nominal alcaline at now 4.36 volts
1- without cap that is direct on scope the spikes can reach 230 volts
2- connect the cap and it charges very rapidly to up to 60 volts and than slowly up to 100
3 -i made the different testing as you suggested i put resistors acros the cap
and the results
0 ohms (direct) resistor = the cap charges to 100 volts
10 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 3,5 volts (almost immediatel)y
20 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 5.95 volts
47 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to about 10 volts
please let me know what the math says.. ?? is it interesting ??
good night
Laurent
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@Laurent
Re on fast diodes, the best is to look for ultra fast rectifier diodes that has a reverse recovery time of less than 25-35 nanosecond. There are diodes that has 4 nanosec trr like 1N914 or 1N4148 but their forward current and reverse voltage limits are too low here (100mA and 80-100V). And the higher current higher voltage diodes with less than 10ns trr are hard to find and expensive.
Here are some links leading to some diode types that you can see where to buy from in you country:
http://www.futurlec.com/DiodesPower.shtml and see the MUR series in the middle and the High Speed series at the bottom like type RHRP860 with less than 30ns with 8A forward current and 800V reverse voltage.
ST Microelectronics also makes very fast diodes, try to find seller for their types that you may find here: http://us.st.com/stonline/products/families/diodes/ultrafast/ultrafast_rectifiers.htm
Fairchild Semiconductor is also an excellent diode maker, see here
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/sitesearch/fsc.jsp?command=eq&attr1=AAAFamily&attr2=Rectifier and again the problem usually is where can you find distributor for them. Maybe the big component sellers like Digikey, Mouser, RS Components, Farnell etc have most of these diodes.
The link above to Futurlec is also a possibility.
No need to hurry and order some exotic type though, only in case it would be justified. If you could have several 1N4148 or 1N914 types to select from, you may consider connecting them in parallel to increase forward current and in series to increase reverse voltage, or even in both combinations because they are cheap and have a 4 nanosec trr ! Just choose a few such types with a digital multimeter in the diode test range and check them for forward voltage to be within 15-20% to roughly double or triple the current limit of one by connecting two or three in parallel. And three in series already have about 250-300V reverse voltage rating, of course their forward voltage drop also triples but for testing higher than 100V pulses, a 2.1V or so voltage loss is negligible.
rgds, Gyula
EDIT Will comment your latest letter tomorrow, thanks.
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@CP I couldn't do a great test of without multimeter as I am trying my new circuit with schottky rectifier & have not yet tuned it to run as a charger. However without the multimeter attached for 3.5 hours the voltage dropped .002V . Fairly inconclusive. When I get it going up 002v every 15 mins like I did the other night, I'll disconnect the meter & do another test. I chose these schottkies with http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZR1020&CATID=33&form=CAT&SUBCATID=388 . The circuit seems to run a bit faster. More tests tonight & hopefully get back onto my Orbie (Ossie/Orbo hybrid :)) This is the scope shot with the new circuit.
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@cp currently running a test. Multimeter off & running at 297RPM start of run voltage at 1.403 will report back in 10 mins.
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@cp currently running a test. off & running at 297RPM start of run voltage at 1.403 will report back in 10 mins.
WHen I turned the meter back on after 10 mins the volatge was 1.438 . It then began to drop rapidly with the meter on edit:20secs. Time lapse between this photo & turning the meter back on. I'm not meant to have diodes between the meter & the battery am I? edit Just chkd after 30mins & voltage is is dropping again slowly with the meter on. 1.436 - 1.433. Cycling up & down but there are more 3 than 6 if you know what I mean. My conclusion is that the meter does not necessarily cause voltage rises. As I understand so little about this circuit there are other influences I'm sure I'm missing here.
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@ Jimboot,
Thanks for running these tests, it will help us nail down what is going on a bit better. But what I am referring to is not just turning off the meter, I mean to disconnect it from the battery all together for a while, while it is running. Then measure it for a couple seconds and disconnect it again. Then compare the results to the times you just left it connected the whole time. That is what I did, and I am seeing a definite pattern. But interesting enough, it still does not appear to do it with my nicad or my nimh batteries, just the disposable alkaline's so far. Like I said before though, it is just a theory that the multimeter could be leaching some juice into the battery. I'm quite sure there are quite a few things going on here we are not seeing yet, that could be throwing our results all over the place making them hard to nail down.
Also, I still do not think I have quite the same voltage coming from the generator side as the battery pulse voltage. But I definitely see the effect of the bemf on the rotor when I start it. I can give it a good flick, which I would guess is about a 400-500 rpm spin with my finger, then when I flip the switch to turn on the pulse circuit, the rotor immediately slows down to operating speed. So there definitely is current moving back to the batteries from the generator side, or I do not think it would slow down when flipped on as quick as it does. Lens Law is applying the brakes to a certain degree for sure. Much more tweaking to do.
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The amount of voltage does not seem to be a factor in efficient running. Batteries need to be at least 70% capacity to run well. 6VSLA at 3V will not run. It seems to me battery capacity or low voltage is a factor.
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@CP Can you adjust the orientation of your coils? So all positive sides are closest to the mags?
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Hi Laurent,
I agree with your 'resume' on the two coil polarity issues.
In the first case Lenz law is in full effect (and your recovery percentage of 15% may be improved by fast diodes) and it is doubtful to reach higher than unity result, only much experimentation and with some novel ideas, it seems. ???
In the second case I think the kickback spikes are a result of even number of flyback pulses that oppose each other. I mean the -+ +- and again a -+ +- coil polarities work against each other, the flyback pulses 'ruin' each other but if energy cannot be destroyed hence the high amplitude spikes appear and maybe something else we are not aware of yet.
Unfortunately the real energy content of these spikes seems low because they are very narrow, needle-like. To make them stronger I can only think of making them more frequent, increase their number, but how can you do this? I think using much more coil pairs (-+ +-) and this involves more switches too.
I think it is useful to discuss the coil polarities as follows.
In case of +- +- +- +- series connection and with all rotor magnets placed with like poles outwards, you either choose an attract mode till TDC or a repel mode from TDC.
In case of -+ +- -+ +- series connection and with all rotor magnets placed with like poles outwards, you have to choose alternately attract and repel modes and this needs tinkering with individual coil positionings, to get the best rpm, or torque.
Maybe I am way off with these speculations, I hope I am not and I am ready to learn also. I built some pulse motors in the past, maybe someone recalls Garry Stanley's so called no back emf pulse motor from 2002-2003, he drove his bicycle with it and he was certain of a COP of 1.5-1.6 if I recall correctly. I did not manage to make real output torque measurements on my build at that time so I do not know if Garry's OU claim was correct. Unfortunately nobody else I am aware of has done real output torque measurements on his setup, most of the people have criticised him...
rgds, Gyula
Hello all
what an intersting thread here full of variable
theres is now 2 congigurations of the coils polarity
1- the serial one that is for a 4 coils device - + - + - + - + which is the original Ossie's device and in this case , if you shortcut the coils you get a very strong BEMF and strong braking of the rotor, I say it is impossible to free wheel the rotor by hand. And so far i understand, in this config you have to tune the reed to insert the pulse motorising energy INSIDE the generaitve AC curve.
And in this case we have to know if the AVERAGE generative energy can overcome the TOTAL input energy ??
with this config, on my really crude testing , i am not able to get more than an average 15 % of generative back energy have you better results ??
2- is from Jimbot 's contra serial config with - + + - - + + - where the coils are facing eachother. In this config the rotor can be almost free wheeling with shorted coils. And the extra energy comes only from the kickback spikes In this config the BEMF is almost zero and on the scope a small trace is there but nothing to do with the generative trace. But the kickback trace are very impressive.
And in this case we have to test if the very strong but very short Spikes (up to more than 200 volts) CAN BE TRANSFORMED in energy to overcome the input energy.
Yep !!!
good night
Laurent
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@Laurent
Thanks for your tests. I think it turns out from them that the high amplitude voltage spikes have little energy content, unfortunately. I say this from the tendency as you measured the increasing voltages in the capacitor for the increasing resistor values, meaning less and less loads. I assume if you try to charge a 100 or 220uF capacitor, the charging speed reduces and so does the final voltage level in the cap.
The 22uF capacitor charged up to 100V contains 0.5*C*V2 Joule, i.e. 22uF*10-6*100*100/2= 0.11Joule. It means that from this capacitor you can take out 0.11W in 1 second and it gets discharged. (I cannot recall what current your setup draws from the 4.5V alkaline, say it is 10mA, then 4.5*10=45mW power that is taken out from the battery in every second. This sounds like OU if you compare 45mW to the 110mW BUT question is how long does it take for the motor to charge the 22uF up to 100V? More than 1 second?
(You wrote 60V went in rapidly and then it went slowly up to 100V, how slowly? If you consider, say, the 60V went in just during 1 second, the stored energy in the 22uF cap is 22*10-6*602/2=0.0396Ws i.e. 39.6mW in 1 second, now we have underunity wrt the 45mW input in every second.)
rgds, Gyula
PS1 when you write 0 Ohm i.e. zero Ohm, it usually means a dead short, a heavy piece of wire, at least for me, and I do know you meant a no load case i.e. no any resistor at all as a load. :) In fact you used an infinitely high resistor in that case, not a 0 Ohm.
PS2 In the meantime Frenky answered how he thinks his no diode setup charges back the battery, it surely involves the spark when created at the switch-off, it is able to conduct via the ionised air gap hence the high amplitude voltage spike (the flyback pulse from his coil) finds its way via the ionised air between the relay contacts back to the battery, a current path is established. This is Newman motor principle as Frenky also mentioned. Whether OU or not it remains to be seen....
Edited for typos
@ Gyula
here some result of my latest config
i am now trying new A with o.3 mm copper and 9.8 mh and 14 ohm, and the config is JB config - + + - - + + -
and so far i understand your questions i made this test
- I disconnected the plus and minus of the bridge from the circuit
and i put the scope probe on the plus and minus
basic data
one 22 micro F 400 volt across + and - of the bridge rectifier
Main battery 4.5 volts nominal alcaline at now 4.36 volts
1- without cap that is direct on scope the spikes can reach 230 volts
2- connect the cap and it charges very rapidly to up to 60 volts and than slowly up to 100
3 -i made the different testing as you suggested i put resistors acros the cap
and the results
0 ohms (direct) resistor = the cap charges to 100 volts
10 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 3,5 volts (almost immediatel)y
20 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 5.95 volts
47 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to about 10 volts
please let me know what the math says.. ?? is it interesting ??
good night
Laurent
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Hi Gyula
Thanks for posting the good info for the diode i will look for what i can get here.
Now i briefly tested the system on 3 lipo = about 12.45 volt fully charged.
And i got a very strong and large basis flyback spike See picture. I suppose , but nor sure that if i flatten all the spike it would average a continuous 50 volt. But how many amps in there ?? so i put a neon bulb direct between plus and minus and it lit but an neon is very low amperage. Than i tried a 12 halogen bulb and there was a big ZZZZZZZZZZ and 2 reeds glued. Than i could save the reeds by chocking them with a screw driver, But did never capture the same power flyback. Than i tried smaller reeds and also never got those flyback.
Simply to say that trial and errors are necessary to capture the nature of this motor but somer time aaaarrrrhhhhgggg !!!
Good luck at all
Laurent
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@CP Can you adjust the orientation of your coils? So all positive sides are closest to the mags?
With the setup I have right now I can't without redrilling holes and screwing them back down. I will go ahead and do that so we have another confirmation of data, but I want to try it with my current setup tonight with a second set of reeds pulsing the entry of the coils also. But I have been keeping that in mind also and have planned on redoing them anyway. I will be adding them to movable brackets with nonmagnetic thumb screws for tightening. That way I can move them around at will and also test that side of your theory.
As far as the alternating polarity of the coils, my honest opinion about that setup is that it is not necessarily out of the ordinary in how it is working. This is just my theory of course, but it appears to work better because you bring one side of the coil closest to the magnets. But you must remember, at the same time you are also moving the other side of the coil further away. In my opinion, there is two generating pulses for every pass of the coil. One incoming, and one as it leaves. We are pulsing the coils on only one of them. The one we are pulsing the coils on we are not seeing as strong effect of the Lenz Law because we are countering it while driving the motor, and collecting part of it on the collapse. But the other side of the coil is simply getting the full effect of lenz law, because it is just being a generator. By moving your coils as you have, and changing the polarity they are hooked up, you simply are only making effective use of the one side in which you are pulsing. The other side that is showing almost all lenz law effect is pulled away from the magnets and now shows nearly none.
I think this is the majority of the reason you are getting a better run for it. But I also think if we used the bipolar circuit, or at least pulse both when entering and when leaving, it would show the same or better results. Then we are countering lenz law and capturing in both times per coils, instead of getting dragged down half the time from it.
@ Jimboot,
I'll bet if you changed the coil polarity from -++- -++- back to the original way -+-+ -+-+ , but you arrange your coils back to normal with all left or all right sides of the coils facing closest, and move the other sides away like you have now. You will see the same results you are seeing right now. Having the polarities swapped like you do, could help and hurt either setup due to them canceling each other out. But they not only cancel the lenz law which is slowing down the setup and a good thing to do, but I think they are also cancelling out the recovery of it, which we do not want. Setting up the coils the way I'm suggesting, in theory, would keep the polarities from bucking each other and allow the lenz law to be captured on the side we are pulsing, and it would also cut down the lenz law on the side that we are not because that side of the coil will be further from the magnets. I hope I explained that well enough for understanding.... It's of course only what I THINK is happening. Any thoughts are welcome...
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Hi All,
Here is youtube video I have seen referenced in the Steorn Demo thread. The builder experienced no voltage loss from his batteries during a 24 hour continuous run. He uses magnetic gear for the rotor, and the actual rotor magnets are two cylinder magnets in the middle that interacts with two stator coils. The full circuit consists of only the battery, 2 reed switches, two high speed diodes (they look like as 1N4148 or 1N914 or similar), two coils and one series resistor.
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgsuJT1zwg
I do not wish to distract anyone's attention from his own activity of course but I think this video is worth seeing.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi All,
Here is youtube video I have seen referenced in the Steorn Demo thread. The builder experienced no voltage loss from his batteries during a 24 hour continuous run. He uses magnetic gear for the rotor, and the actual rotor magnets are two cylinder magnets in the middle that interacts with two stator coils. The full circuit consists of only the battery, 2 reed switches, two high speed diodes (they look like as 1N4148 or 1N914 or similar), two coils and one series resistor.
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgsuJT1zwg
I do not wish to distract anyone's attention from his own activity of course but I think this video is worth seeing.
rgds, Gyula
I'm not terribly impressed with the Steorn demo. After several years, millions of dollars and promises of 'unlimited energy', they are producing *way* less than a watt worth of excess energy (21,000 joules over the course of a week = .035 watts). Enough to give you such a nasty shock if you put it all into a tazer, but it would only run a 50 watt lightbulb for 7 minutes.... then you'd have to wait another week to get another 7 minutes out of that lightbulb. I think that chasing after other designs will be more productive.
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Hi solinear,
I respect your opinion on Steorn but the video I referred to has nothing to do with Steorn!! Ok?
Thanks, Gyula
I'm not terribly impressed with the Steorn demo. After several years, millions of dollars and promises of 'unlimited energy', they are producing *way* less than a watt worth of excess energy (21,000 joules over the course of a week = .035 watts). Enough to give you such a nasty shock if you put it all into a tazer, but it would only run a 50 watt lightbulb for 7 minutes.... then you'd have to wait another week to get another 7 minutes out of that lightbulb. I think that chasing after other designs will be more productive.
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Hi solinear,
I respect your opinion on Steorn but the video I referred to has nothing to do with Steorn!! Ok?
Thanks, Gyula
You're right - that's a neat little setup he has built in that video. I wonder if he could kick-start it with a capacitor with dead batteries and keep it going.
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Hi All,
Here is youtube I have seen referenced in the Steorn Demo thread. The builder experienced no voltage loss from his batteries during a 24 hour continuous run. He uses magnetic gear for the rotor, and the actual rotor magnets are two cylinder magnets in the middle that interacts with two stator coils. The full circuit consists of only the battery, 2 reed switches, two high speed diodes (they look like as 1N4148 or 1N914 or similar), two coils and one series resistor.
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgsuJT1zwg
I do not wish to distract anyone's attention from his own activity of course but I think this video is worth seeing.
rgds, Gyula
Looks like an Ossie variation to me. Interesting tho. My D cell ran for 97 hours before I stopped it. Voltage before the run was 1.32 after it was 1.36
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With the setup I have right now I can't without redrilling holes and screwing them back down. I will go ahead and do that so we have another confirmation of data, but I want to try it with my current setup tonight with a second set of reeds pulsing the entry of the coils also. But I have been keeping that in mind also and have planned on redoing them anyway. I will be adding them to movable brackets with nonmagnetic thumb screws for tightening. That way I can move them around at will and also test that side of your theory.
As far as the alternating polarity of the coils, my honest opinion about that setup is that it is not necessarily out of the ordinary in how it is working. This is just my theory of course, but it appears to work better because you bring one side of the coil closest to the magnets. But you must remember, at the same time you are also moving the other side of the coil further away. In my opinion, there is two generating pulses for every pass of the coil. One incoming, and one as it leaves. We are pulsing the coils on only one of them. The one we are pulsing the coils on we are not seeing as strong effect of the Lenz Law because we are countering it while driving the motor, and collecting part of it on the collapse. But the other side of the coil is simply getting the full effect of lenz law, because it is just being a generator. By moving your coils as you have, and changing the polarity they are hooked up, you simply are only making effective use of the one side in which you are pulsing. The other side that is showing almost all lenz law effect is pulled away from the magnets and now shows nearly none.
I think this is the majority of the reason you are getting a better run for it. But I also think if we used the bipolar circuit, or at least pulse both when entering and when leaving, it would show the same or better results. Then we are countering lenz law and capturing in both times per coils, instead of getting dragged down half the time from it.
@ Jimboot,
I'll bet if you changed the coil polarity from -++- -++- back to the original way -+-+ -+-+ , but you arrange your coils back to normal with all left or all right sides of the coils facing closest, and move the other sides away like you have now. You will see the same results you are seeing right now. Having the polarities swapped like you do, could help and hurt either setup due to them canceling each other out. But they not only cancel the lenz law which is slowing down the setup and a good thing to do, but I think they are also cancelling out the recovery of it, which we do not want. Setting up the coils the way I'm suggesting, in theory, would keep the polarities from bucking each other and allow the lenz law to be captured on the side we are pulsing, and it would also cut down the lenz law on the side that we are not because that side of the coil will be further from the magnets. I hope I explained that well enough for understanding.... It's of course only what I THINK is happening. Any thoughts are welcome...
Thanks CP. That really helps me. I'm starting witth my Orzy tonight. I have some 12mmm Metglas squareloop toroids. I'm hoping the big air coils will saturate them. I'll let you know if I'm dreaming later. :) I'll hook the coils up the right way this time. Also I'd appreciate anyone's help who can tell me where I should hook up my scope probes to? Thanks
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Hi Gyula
Thanks for posting the good info for the diode i will look for what i can get here.
Now i briefly tested the system on 3 lipo = about 12.45 volt fully charged.
And i got a very strong and large basis flyback spike See picture. I suppose , but nor sure that if i flatten all the spike it would average a continuous 50 volt. But how many amps in there ?? so i put a neon bulb direct between plus and minus and it lit but an neon is very low amperage. Than i tried a 12 halogen bulb and there was a big ZZZZZZZZZZ and 2 reeds glued. Than i could save the reeds by chocking them with a screw driver, But did never capture the same power flyback. Than i tried smaller reeds and also never got those flyback.
Simply to say that trial and errors are necessary to capture the nature of this motor but somer time aaaarrrrhhhhgggg !!!
Good luck at all
Laurent
Hey Woopy - I feel your pain :)
Where do you have your probes hooked up to? I'd like to compare my scope shots with yours but I think I'm measuring wrong.
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Hi All,
Here is youtube video I have seen referenced in the Steorn Demo thread. The builder experienced no voltage loss from his batteries during a 24 hour continuous run. He uses magnetic gear for the rotor, and the actual rotor magnets are two cylinder magnets in the middle that interacts with two stator coils. The full circuit consists of only the battery, 2 reed switches, two high speed diodes (they look like as 1N4148 or 1N914 or similar), two coils and one series resistor.
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgsuJT1zwg
I do not wish to distract anyone's attention from his own activity of course but I think this video is worth seeing.
rgds, Gyula
Yup, that's running on the exact principles the Ossie motor does. Nice design too. I like Hector's work, the guy in the video. I've always followed all of his builds.
@Jimboot,
Glad I could help, but please, if your setup works best keep working with it. I'm just offering my understanding and theories, by all means test and experiment before you take anyone's word on a new design. You never know when everyone else really is wrong, and you are right! We are all just searching and learning as we go. But we definitely want to learn from everyone elses mistakes, so we don't have to repeat the same ones. My goal is to find all new mistakes to make! lol... That's how we learn.
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Yup, that's running on the exact principles the Ossie motor does. Nice design too. I like Hector's work, the guy in the video. I've always followed all of his builds.
@Jimboot,
Glad I could help, but please, if your setup works best keep working with it. I'm just offering my understanding and theories, by all means test and experiment before you take anyone's word on a new design. You never know when everyone else really is wrong, and you are right! We are all just searching and learning as we go. But we definitely want to learn from everyone elses mistakes, so we don't have to repeat the same ones. My goal is to find all new mistakes to make! lol... That's how we learn.
Couldn't agree with your more mate! I live my life but that. I am very learned ;) I'm building a second motor so I can compare perfomance. I'll be ditching the lesser performing coil arrangement. edit: The hard part is defining "lesser performing" :)
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Looks like an Ossie variation to me. Interesting tho. My D cell ran for 97 hours before I stopped it. Voltage before the run was 1.32 after it was 1.36
Hi Jimboot,
Yes, I have been aware of your excellent series of tests and the only reason I included that link here is that I also thought it to be an Ossie variant, using diodes, reeds switches and coils, only the mechanical arrangement of the magnets and coils are different. I did not want to offend anybody here.
Re on your recent asking where to put the scope probe. Laurent has showed mainly two measuring points, one is across the final ends of the series coils and another one is across a 1 or 100 Ohm resistor to see the voltage drop and estimate the current draw from the battery.
Because these battery operated pulse motor setups are ground independent circuits i.e. they have no any connection to the mains, normally there is no problem which point of the circuit you clip the scope probe on when you wish to see the pulses across the coils, the only consideration could be to see a positive going waveform on the screen and this happens when the ground clip i.e. crocodile of the probe is connected to the most negative polarity part of the circuit and the "hot" center pin of the probe is clipped to a 'positive' point. For instance the most negative point of the coils in Ossie circuit is the negative battery wire via the reed switch and via the 2.2 Ohm to lower leg of coil L4, if you consider Ossie's schematic on Naudin page here:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm So I would connetc the crocodile of the probe to the common points of L4 and R1 and the pin tip of the probe would go to the upper end of L1 if I wished to see the waveform across the 4 series coils.
In these scope shots Laurent used scope settings like 10 ms for the time base range switch and 20V/DIV setting for the vertical scale:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8731.msg227021#msg227021
It is always helpful to know what these setting have been at the moment the picture is taken from the scope display when you want to show it or ask about it.
His first picture in that link shows the waveform across the his coils and the lower picture shows the diode bridge output, being the crocodile is connected to the diode bridge negative output and the tip of the probe is clipped to the positive output of the bridge.
rgds, Gyula
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Yes, I have been aware of your excellent series of tests and the only reason I included that link here is that I also thought it to be an Ossie variant, using diodes, reeds switches and coils, only the mechanical arrangement of the magnets and coils are different. I did not want to offend anybody here.
You certainly did not offend anyone here. That post of Skycollections video is very much on topic. I think someone was just getting tired of the Ossie motor getting so much flack over at the Orbo thread where it was born, they just expected that video was going to be promoting the Orbo again. A quick view of the video, and I think everyone here agrees that it is right on topic here. Thanks for posting it. I also have been finding much about this TYPE of motor, including adams variations and stuff over at energetic forum, and I am curious where hector is working on his at? He seems to refer to it as his SAM motor. Just have not seen or heard of that name of a motor before. Has anyone else? Overall, It appears from watching his other video's, he drifted from making an Orbo replication into what he has now. As it seems most have been ending up doing. Not that the Orbo doesn't have merit, just that a true replication of an Orbo without any real build data from Steorn, has pretty much made many move onto other stuff that they are seeing results with.
@all,
I have been searching the net for a good oscilloscope to order. I'm looking to spend less than $200 if possible, and have found a few that look good on ebay. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to get a pretty descent one? I like the detail on Whoopy's scope traces, could you share with me what type of o-scope you are using also?
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Hi.
This scope should be more than good enough:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hantek-DSO-2090-PC-USB-Digital-Oscilloscope-100MS_W0QQitemZ280422059620QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item414a750e64
This one has 40MHz bandwidth. And I have read some good reviews online about Hantek DSO-2090.
I think that gotoluc also has it.
I am using much cheaper one with bandwidth only 12Mhz and is still more than enough for basic researching.
Frenky
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@Jb
to complete the Gyula explanation here a drawing
@ Cp
and a picture of my scope 25 mghz
good luck
laurent
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Hi Folks,
Here is a digital scope, 25MB bandwidth:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ATTEN-ADS1022-C-25MHz-Digital-Oscilloscope-DSO-ADS1022C_W0QQitemZ250548408860QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item3a55d9521c
Unfortunately, the shipping costs $102 from Hong Kong, maybe the manufacturer has got dealers on the main continents: http://www.atten.com.cn/english/index.html
rgds, Gyula
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Hi.
This scope should be more than good enough:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hantek-DSO-2090-PC-USB-Digital-Oscilloscope-100MS_W0QQitemZ280422059620QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item414a750e64
This one has 40MHz bandwidth. And I have read some good reviews online about Hantek DSO-2090.
I think that gotoluc also has it.
I am using much cheaper one with bandwidth only 12Mhz and is still more than enough for basic researching.
Frenky
Thanks for the recommendation. For some reason a while back someone told me not to get a usb scope because they could not due DC. This one shows "DC accuracy +-3%", I assume this means they told me wrong, and they just did not have as good of quality of one to compare to? Or does that spec mean something else entirely? Because I certainly want to be able to measure DC.
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Yeah you can measure DC no doubt about that.
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Hi CP,
Once the scope is featured for Coupling modes as AC/DC/GND it should mean the DC coupling too. Otherwise it would be a big drawback in marketing for this type. The +-3% DC accuracy is a usual accuracy for even a similar digital scope like the one I referred to or probably Laurent has.
The only problem I have with USB PC scopes is they need a PC... they are designed to a PC of course, maybe a dedicated lap-top could be assigned for it.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi CP,
Once the scope is featured for Coupling modes as AC/DC/GND it should mean the DC coupling too. Otherwise it would be a big drawback in marketing for this type. The +-3% DC accuracy is a usual accuracy for even a similar digital scope like the one I referred to or probably Laurent has.
The only problem I have with USB PC scopes is they need a PC... they are designed to a PC of course, maybe a dedicated lap-top could be assigned for it.
rgds, Gyula
Yeah, the laptop is not a problem. I have an extra one, and a desktop that is not even being used at the moment anyway. But I just want the best bang for the buck, considering the limited funds available, and a good oscope can run thousands easily.
@all,
I started my long run with my motor to see how it is doing. This one is still just using two reeds, and I have not set it yet to fire on both incoming and exiting of the coil. That will be the next step, but I wanted a good efficiency benchmark to check it against first. So far, this one shows an increase in voltage on disposable batteries, and a small decrease on rechargables. Still scratching my head on that one. But for this run I am using 1 AA 2000mah nimh battery. So far it has ran for 12 hrs and has only decreased .06 volts. Still could be better, but it's not bad as it is already. So it's going pretty well so far. I'm working on the 4 reed version that will be running shortly to compare the data. I'll keep posting my data as it goes.
Makes me wonder, when steorn stated the longest they ran the orbo for was 7 days continuous, and they were using a 10,000 mah D cell. Guys, I think this Ossie motor can perform better than that. It would be great if someone had a high enough quality oscope to do the same final tests that steorn did, with an Ossie motor.
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Hi Jimboot,
Yes, I have been aware of your excellent series of tests and the only reason I included that link here is that I also thought it to be an Ossie variant, using diodes, reeds switches and coils, only the mechanical arrangement of the magnets and coils are different. I did not want to offend anybody here.
Re on your recent asking where to put the scope probe. Laurent has showed mainly two measuring points, one is across the final ends of the series coils and another one is across a 1 or 100 Ohm resistor to see the voltage drop and estimate the current draw from the battery.
Because these battery operated pulse motor setups are ground independent circuits i.e. they have no any connection to the mains, normally there is no problem which point of the circuit you clip the scope probe on when you wish to see the pulses across the coils, the only consideration could be to see a positive going waveform on the screen and this happens when the ground clip i.e. crocodile of the probe is connected to the most negative polarity part of the circuit and the "hot" center pin of the probe is clipped to a 'positive' point. For instance the most negative point of the coils in Ossie circuit is the negative battery wire via the reed switch and via the 2.2 Ohm to lower leg of coil L4, if you consider Ossie's schematic on Naudin page here:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm So I would connetc the crocodile of the probe to the common points of L4 and R1 and the pin tip of the probe would go to the upper end of L1 if I wished to see the waveform across the 4 series coils.
In these scope shots Laurent used scope settings like 10 ms for the time base range switch and 20V/DIV setting for the vertical scale:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8731.msg227021#msg227021
It is always helpful to know what these setting have been at the moment the picture is taken from the scope display when you want to show it or ask about it.
His first picture in that link shows the waveform across the his coils and the lower picture shows the diode bridge output, being the crocodile is connected to the diode bridge negative output and the tip of the probe is clipped to the positive output of the bridge.
rgds, Gyula
Hey Mate - no offence taken! I was checking to see if I was missing something. The build is pretty impressive. I wasn't sure if there was something else I was supposed see.
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@ Gyula @woopy thanks so much for the explanation. working on it last night. In the office but still not quite awake. :) Went to bed with two motors running off the same 1.5 battery - just because :) They were still running this morning.
Something weird is going on with my new Orzy tho. I had some metglass toroids. 19mm (not squareloop) & 12mm (squareloop) They fitted inside each other exactly and then into the perfectly... so of course I had to build a motor with them inside. Got it running on normal coil polarity then on my arse backwards polarity. But I think I am getting massive bemf or something. The rotor inititially starts to spin up fast then the coils begin to emit a low loud hum and the rotor slows down. The hum vibrates the table I am working on but voltage drops don't seem that worse. This is off a 1.5v battery. To me it seems like a hell of a lot of energy being demonstrated in these vibrations. I'm hoping to find the equal but opposite reaction tonight :)
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I'm having a hard time visualizing your setup? But knowing how the magnets are pulling at those toroids, and it seems you have a toroids inside of other toroids. Then I tend to think that your vibration is not necessarily coming from the pulsing of the motor as much as the natural magnetic attraction moving those toroids around. Are they firmly fastened? I'm just curious if you may be experiences toroids banging around inside of the other toroids. If this is the case, you may want to fix that scenario quick like. Metglass cores are kinda fragile. Not knowing how severe your vibration is, it concerns me that you may be on the road to messing up your cores on accident. Just take a good look at what is happening, and find a way to dampen the vibration if you can figure out where it is coming from. But, of course I cannot really visualize what your doing so I'm making it up as I go, lol... Good luck!
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I'm having a hard time visualizing your setup? But knowing how the magnets are pulling at those toroids, and it seems you have a toroids inside of other toroids. Then I tend to think that your vibration is not necessarily coming from the pulsing of the motor as much as the natural magnetic attraction moving those toroids around. Are they firmly fastened? I'm just curious if you may be experiences toroids banging around inside of the other toroids. If this is the case, you may want to fix that scenario quick like. Metglass cores are kinda fragile. Not knowing how severe your vibration is, it concerns me that you may be on the road to messing up your cores on accident. Just take a good look at what is happening, and find a way to dampen the vibration if you can figure out where it is coming from. But, of course I cannot really visualize what your doing so I'm making it up as I go, lol... Good luck!
The toroids are fastened & not moving. I paid attention to their name Metal Glass :) . If this rumble was coming from the torids they would be well & truly shattered by now. The rumble is coming from the coils themselves. I think it is a current issue, bemf or some kind of feedback. Just very weird to see that much energy coming off a 1.5v for me. the rotor starts to accelerate then hum builds & slows the rotor but it keeps running. I'm sure it is a coils polarity issue but I didn't have this happen in the first motor and the only diff is the toroids. I took some vid last night but with web cam so the audio sux. edit: JUst remembered the other diff is that this motor has the opp mag polarity to the first one.
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Here's the vid of my Ossie with Metglas. Just a weird effect which vibrate through the whole table. It is not in the rotor but the grinding sound is coming from the coils. Just found it interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEcVPJZl11Q
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Left this morn with both going off same d cell. When I got home 20mins ago the Orzy had stopped but the ossie was still going happily at 310rpm with slight v drops. I simply touched the rotor of the orzy and spun up to 400 rpm with no rumble. V at 1221, (meter disconnected except when measuring.) 10mins later voltage had risen to 1236. I'll isolate the orzy in a few hours & report back. A convoluted setup I know, but I'm having a helluva lot of fun! Looking good
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@ Gyula I was confused about the SAM Motor as he claimed it was a self runner. Surely if it needs batteries it is not a self runner? If you can have a self runner with batteries how long does it have to run before you call it a self runner. I'm just a bit confused about definitions. Will setup some scope shots tonight.
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Thought I would go ahead and post the data I have so far on my Ossie run. As a reminder, I am using 1 1.2v 2000mah nimh battery to run it. The battery started fully charged at 1.354 volts.
The data is pretty interesting indeed. You can see how the voltage dropped faster in the beginning, but it seems to be leveling off now. It would seem that it is possibly that the battery being full charged, was just not able to effectively hold as much of the recovery energy. As the battery goes down in voltage, it would appear that the battery is catching the recovery energy much more effectively. Hopefully it will turn a corner in the next couple hours and hit the sweet spot where it does not lose energy anymore.
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Capt
The battery, was it fully charged? Even if it wasnt, it may still be on the way down to a sort of resting point.
They call them 1.2v but the resting point really doesnt exist with nicads or nimh because they will drain on their own over time. But above a certain point, lets say 1.2v, they will drain themselves faster from a high till they reach a so called resting point. Once reached, the self draining will be minimum, and this is the time, or place, that the battery will accept a charge from your motor easier because the battery is not as much of a load on the recharge it gets from the motor.
This is why an alkaline battery seems to work better, just because it does. The alkaline has very very little self drain.
Alkalines can be recharged. They just cant be charged hard like a rechargable. Most people dont know this but if you put alkaline batteries in a rechargeable battery charger, they can only take so much heat before they leak, or pop. If, depending on the alkaline battery manufacturer, you put an alkaline battery in the charger for 1/2 hour to an hour, let it cool then repeat, she will recharge many times successfully.
So the charge they get from the motor, as long as they dont get too hot, which they should do fine, should not hurt them. Rechargeable s waist a lot of energy in the recharging process in creating heat. My nimh bats get so hot when done, I cannot hold on to them. So whether we get more use out of them before throwing them away, the power co. is getting their watts out of it, and they are probably in bed with the battery companies.
Mags
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Hi.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that voltage will actually go up, but your current voltagedata shows what is normal NiMh discharge curve.
See here: http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/using_nimh.html
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Here is where I got my info on recharging alkaline batteries. You wont find this info from a battery company.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MattBlytheTheOne#p/u/40/UDwMxISYojM
In the graph above by Futuristic you can see why the rechargeable will seem to remain steady for such a long period.
And the hump in the middle also shows why a voltage rise over time will occur. Tricky on the mind.
I am going to run a pulse motor on an alkaline starting tonight. I will put up a vid and see what she will do.
Mags
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Thought I would go ahead and post the data I have so far on my Ossie run. As a reminder, I am using 1 1.2v 2000mah nimh battery to run it. The battery started fully charged at 1.354 volts.
The data is pretty interesting indeed. You can see how the voltage dropped faster in the beginning, but it seems to be leveling off now. It would seem that it is possibly that the battery being full charged, was just not able to effectively hold as much of the recovery energy. As the battery goes down in voltage, it would appear that the battery is catching the recovery energy much more effectively. Hopefully it will turn a corner in the next couple hours and hit the sweet spot where it does not lose energy anymore.
Hey CP congrats mate. My orzy had dropped .002 over 3 hours. I'm stopping it now as I want to check my toroids. Want make sure they dont rattle :)
@Mags thanks for the battery data. It makes sense to me now. I found it hard to even reach the same RPMs as with recharbles. My SLA's got the motor running when charged up but at half their charge, say 3V they wouldn't even spin the rotor.
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@ Gyula I was confused about the SAM Motor as he claimed it was a self runner. Surely if it needs batteries it is not a self runner? If you can have a self runner with batteries how long does it have to run before you call it a self runner. I'm just a bit confused about definitions. Will setup some scope shots tonight.
Hi Jimboot,
I think the reason Skycollection states his motor a self runner is that during 24 hours his battery voltage remained on the same voltage level he started to run it. (around 5.14V)
This may mean that his motor should run from a supercapacitor bank charged up initially to around 5.1 - 5.2V from a source then start running the same motor for 24 hours (if it is able to).
Question is how much the chemical processes inside the batteries contribute to maintain the voltage on same level, thinking on the regained pulse current via the diodes, in most of the cases charging batteries with pulsed current induces chemical proccesses that normally do not start for a regular charger. This is what I think. John Bedini calls his chargers as 'radiant energy' chargers (while he uses the same pulse that comes from a flux collapse) and states the 'overunity' is in the batteries charged that way.
It would be good to know how many mA his motor consumes. Also, I wonder what is the forward voltage drop on his so called high speed diodes i.e. type of his diodes. High switching speed is one requirement but the 1N4148 or 1N914 type diode with their excellent 4 nanosecond reverse recovery time do "eat up" 0.7-0.8V from the regained pulse amplitude, while there are other types that while a bit slower (20-30 ns) but have a 0.3-0.4V forward voltage drop only and this may also count on the long run.
All in all, I still think if he could run the motor on supercaps, and the voltage level would not start decrease on the long run, then he would really have a self runner. With supercaps the chemical 'help' inside the batteries could be ruled out.
With my above views, by no means wish I reduce his or others excellent achievements in this pulse motor field.
rgds, Gyula
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Thaks @Gyula. Just trying to get my head around the definitions and learn. Don't worry I'm not offended. :D I've found the capacitor behave completely differently. It is too "rigid". I had mine running for 11 mins on one but the voltage steadily drops no matter how much I try to tune. Just as all batteries seem to have different characteristics, my mind boggles at what I will have to do to get this thing to run on a capacitor. I think charging another battery is much more likely. Thanks for the excellent explanation on the diodes as well I'm learning heaps. I just built a schottky bridge rectifier ( I think ) between my 2 motors, both doing over 300RPM off my D cell. Voltage at 1.202 Think I'll let it run overnight.
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Here's the vid of my Ossie with Metglas. Just a weird effect which vibrate through the whole table. It is not in the rotor but the grinding sound is coming from the coils. Just found it interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEcVPJZl11Q
Jimboot, could it be that the rotor magnets push the air into the openings of the coil bobbin where the toroids start vibrating due to this?
Maybe holding a ventillator above the rotor and orienting it vertically down so that the direction of the air from the magnets themselves would surely change to another direction, downwards, surely away from the openings.
Or try to stuff in some elastic plastic 'folie' to cover up the opening of the bobbins, to prevent entering much less air.
rgds, Gyula
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Was thinking about the reeds in the circuits shown. If the reeds do not disconnect at exactly the same time, the diodes wont conduct properly. A way to avoid this is, they make DPDT reeds. This would be easier for tuning and most assuredly, they would be as close to on and off together better than anything else.
Now if we were not using just 1.5v to power the thing, 1 regular reed could turn on and of 2 mosfets in place of the 2 reeds. And Mosfets can be paralleled to get super low on resistances, and some are very fast switchers.
I have a few old Soundstream amplifiers, that in their power supply, it switches a 3 turn primary on a toroid transformer at 60khz, weel above audible freq. And the 3 turns are 2 phases of 3 18ga wire in parallel. it uses 4 50amp 60v fets in parallel on each phase of primary. That is pretty darn fast if speed is a concern, handling 200 amp load, if it even needs to be that much. I have been running 1 IRFZ44 in my latest circuits and it works great for most all I have done with it. Just a thought.
Mags
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One more thing. I see Jim has a lil different config going. in the Ossie motor circuit, I see the diodes are setup to capture bemf but does it also capture normal charge from the rotor? I guess what i am saying is depending on if the coils are setup to push the rotor or pull (opposing poles or attracting) will determining if regular charge is being accepted though the diodes, where as the bemf will be captured either way. In Jims case, he just may have a bit more regular charge happening, not just bemf capture.
mags
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@ futuristic,
Good call on the nimh graphing. That is exactly what is going on with the discharge rate! Thanks for posting it, it's a perfect correlation to my data.
@all,
Well, I have my first dead reed switch for my Ossie Motor. :'( Only a couple hours further into the run, I saw the rate of discharge turn the corner alright, except it turned the corner in the wrong direction and begin to discharge even faster again. I stopped the run so I could go ahead and hookup the 2nd set of reed switches to double pulse this motor for the next 24 hr run. After I could not get it tuned right for the second run, I soon realized one of my reeds on the first set was stuck shut. The way this motor is setup, it still runs just fine with a stuck reed, but the pulse width is then to wide, and off time. This does explain why it begain losing energy faster at the end of the run.
I have replaced the reed switch, and hooked up both sets now, but I'm banging my head against the wall because something else is still not right yet to start my 2nd run. It runs, but it is dead shorting the battery somewhere now, because the battery voltage is dropping like rock. I have narrowed down the problem now so that it does not do it if I disconnect the shottky bridge I made. Interesting enough, the motor does not run as smooth when the bridge is disconnected as expected, but the battery goes UP in voltage if I let it run for a minute. Now I am not letting it run like this, just something I noticed when testing the circuit to find the problem. It would be a reed killer to let it run this way with out any bemf recovery hooked up. I have not gotten time to pick it apart any further, I may have a dead diode in my bridge now causing the short, not sure yet.
But I did find it very interesting to see that the nimh battery was climbing in voltage with NO RECOVERY CIRCUIT hooked up at all. This goes along the lines of a post someone posted here with his relay driven Ossie and no recovery diodes. Sorry I don't remember who posted it yet, I'll look. Very interesting effect I'm gonna have to play with after I pick up a couple more reeds. It's to early to say though, because my motor was firing twice per coil pass this time, so it may show the same charging when I fix the bridge.
Here is my run data for the first one. I will post run data for the double reeds version when I get it fixed. It kinda sucks though, because the data is skewed right at the end of the run because of a stuck reed switch. The data curve looks to follow the graph of the nimh all the way to the end, but with a stuck reed, I do not know if it was stuck closed from somewhere in the first hour, or the last hour. I thought I had a decent digical camera to record a vid for you guys, but it's not working worth a crap either now, lol... I'll try and pick one up soon.
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Was thinking about the reeds in the circuits shown. If the reeds do not disconnect at exactly the same time, the diodes wont conduct properly. A way to avoid this is, they make DPDT reeds. This would be easier for tuning and most assuredly, they would be as close to on and off together better than anything else.
Now if we were not using just 1.5v to power the thing, 1 regular reed could turn on and of 2 mosfets in place of the 2 reeds. And Mosfets can be paralleled to get super low on resistances, and some are very fast switchers.
I have a few old Soundstream amplifiers, that in their power supply, it switches a 3 turn primary on a toroid transformer at 60khz, weel above audible freq. And the 3 turns are 2 phases of 3 18ga wire in parallel. it uses 4 50amp 60v fets in parallel on each phase of primary. That is pretty darn fast if speed is a concern, handling 200 amp load, if it even needs to be that much. I have been running 1 IRFZ44 in my latest circuits and it works great for most all I have done with it. Just a thought.
Mags
You know, I was thinking the same thing last night when I was replacing my reed switch. I do not have any DPDT reeds to even obtain locally, I have already checked. But I should be able to modify two of my regular relay style reeds to work in the same manner. I'm thinking if I wrap the two together with steel wire, and then leave an inch or so of the wire sticking out. Then I could pull the reeds far enough back to be out of the flux, but the one inch wire will still be in the flux. This should let the flux travel into both reeds at the same time and not be to hard to tune. I've give it a try!
One more thing. I see Jim has a lil different config going. in the Ossie motor circuit, I see the diodes are setup to capture bemf but does it also capture normal charge from the rotor? I guess what i am saying is depending on if the coils are setup to push the rotor or pull (opposing poles or attracting) will determining if regular charge is being accepted though the diodes, where as the bemf will be captured either way. In Jims case, he just may have a bit more regular charge happening, not just bemf capture.
mags
In my setup, I'm using a shottky bridge I made. I can easily see the slowing of the rotor due to Lenz Law both entering and leaving the coils when I don't have the motor turned on to fire. So I know mine if capturing the rotor energy for sure. But, I've still got problems with mine and will not be able to play with it again until after work tonight sometime.
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It has got me thinking, now that I have seen my battery increase in voltage, when the bridge was disconnected and my reeds were sparking themselves to death, I need to look into this further.
I come up with a small variation of the circuit diagram I posted earlier. This time I eliminated the shottky bridge, and replaced it with spark gaps... Tesla would be proud, lol... If I'm thinking clearly, the small amount of resistance in line with the reeds will make it easier to get the spark to jump the spark gaps instead of the gaps in the reed switches. If the gaps are tuned precisely, it may be possible for the reeds switches to open and not spark at all, while all the energy jumps the spark gaps instead and absorb into the battery. Please share your thought's on this new variation idea I shared. I think it may hold some promise.
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@Captaipecan . why not use old car spark plugs? You can beg old ones at any garage that does servicing . They will last years . When you get them adjusted , enclose them in an earthed can to prevent stray RF radiation.
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@captainpecan:
I like your setup with spark gaps. Do you think of doing it with two wire ends or will you make something more sofisticated? ;)
Frenky
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It has got me thinking, now that I have seen my battery increase in voltage, when the bridge was disconnected and my reeds were sparking themselves to death, I need to look into this further.
I come up with a small variation of the circuit diagram I posted earlier. This time I eliminated the shottky bridge, and replaced it with spark gaps... Tesla would be proud, lol... If I'm thinking clearly, the small amount of resistance in line with the reeds will make it easier to get the spark to jump the spark gaps instead of the gaps in the reed switches. If the gaps are tuned precisely, it may be possible for the reeds switches to open and not spark at all, while all the energy jumps the spark gaps instead and absorb into the battery. Please share your thought's on this new variation idea I shared. I think it may hold some promise.
Typically the solution is to put medium sized capacitors across the
arcing contacts. Capacitors sized to suppress the arc but not affect
circuit operation. Here is the thing; Those arcs represent combustion,
not necessarily oxygen combustion, to some extent and may themselves
be a source of energy in MHD form.
They really need to be fully suppressed in the long term. Lower
voltage then inductive kicks cause those arcs, and they start-up
when the switch contact gap is tiny. Sparkplugs need a much higher
voltage before they start to arc in air. Other discharge gasses might
accord some promise. Neon, Xenon, or Argon in the form of discharge
lamps across the contacts. But switch arcs can form even when there
is no inductive voltage rise at all.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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How about surge suppression devices that are rated just above the operating voltage? Im not sure that they exist at that low of a voltage, but they could act as a great precision rated spark gap. And if it is just above the operating voltage, it would be a one way trip back to the battery and eliminate sparking in the reed as well.
Caps are ok to reduce the spark in the reed, but it would seem to be a waste to put any energy into that kind of suppressive action.
Mags
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My Orzy is doing the grinding thing again the trace below is across the coils of my 2 motors. The top trace is the Orzy. The wave compresses like that when it grinds. I put a stethoscope on the coils & the noise is definitely coming from there. Feels like there is a lot of pent up energy trying to be released.
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Also, I see the resistors in the circuits. I see them as something that is slowing things down.
Look at it like this. Without the resistor, the inductor will charge faster and higher. With the resistor it will be slower and less of a field build at the end of the cycle, where the bemf will also be cut down likewise.
Like how much voltage is actually getting across the coils after the resistor during a short pulse? If the reed cant handle it, use bigger ones that can do the job, but dont "limit" yourself with resistors. I think that is kind of going backwards. But thats just me. =]
I said this before about the voltage, why just us 1.5v? Just because Steorn does? If you went to 3v, replace the resistors with diodes in a forward conducting manor through the reeds, and this will be an extra barrier to resist back feed through the reed. Sure there will be a voltage drop, but at 3v, say we get 2.2 at the least. I dont see any problems with that.
Just thoughts that I am going to play with here in a bit.
Mags
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Also, I see the in the circuits. I see them as something that is slowing things down.
Look at it like this. Without the , the inductor will charge faster and higher. With the resistor it will be slower and less of a field build at the end of the cycle, where the bemf will also be cut down likewise.
Like how much voltage is actually getting across the coils after the resistor during a short pulse? If the reed cant handle it, use bigger ones that can do the job, but dont "limit" yourself with resistors. I think that is kind of going backwards. But thats just me. =]
I said this before about the voltage, why just us 1.5v? Just because Steorn does? If you went to 3v, replace the resistors with diodes in a forward conducting manor through the reeds, and this will be an extra barrier to resist back feed through the reed. Sure there will be a voltage drop, but at 3v, say we get 2.2 at the least. I dont see any problems with that.
Just thoughts that I am going to play with here in a bit.
Mags
I have yet to use resistors in my circuits.
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Jim
I see that. =] I am just throwing stuff on the plate from stuff I see otherwise. Ideers. =]
Mags
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Jim
I see that. =] I am just throwing stuff on the plate from stuff I see otherwise. Ideers. =]
Mags
Sure. my comment was an FYI. With 3V what sort of battery? Alkaline still? My6v sla at 3v gave no joy. luvyawork
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Hello all
just for info
yestertday i came back to Ossie original polarity and with my new more resistant and inductive coils i could get very interesting results.
first it was easier to tune the reeds to get the current to drop (depending of the voltage) i could get a working motor with 1.5 to 2 ma really low
So i put another time my super cap 5.4 (2 x 2.7 volt) and 10 F to charge with my 4.5 alcaline battery. Than i disconnected the main battery and let the super cap works from itself and it lasted easily 4 hours but still dropping and i stopped the game when the rotor spun always at 60 rpm not dead at all. In my previous test it lasted only 1 hour and really at the end.
so my thinking is that if we go up with more turns on the coils and thinner wire the resistance is higher and the inductance also. Than the AC wave is larger but as we are in a air core config the BEMF is not proportional to this increase ??. Just a supposition !
But what is very good in my thinking is the TORQUE this motor works basically as an attraction motor (i did not try the CP config with attraction an repulsion energy yet ) but in attraction it is very powerfull
I mean the impuls transforms the air coils as a magnet and attracts the rotor magnet, than the magnet approaches the TDC and the second reed cuts the current and the air coil transform itself back as a generator
So contrary to a ORBO system Which depends of the orinal net attraction of the magnet to the core , with the Ossie^s we can vary the value of the attraction power by adding plus ore minus voltage. but as we cut this voltage at ( or just before ) TDC , the magnet travel the coils with the kinetik energy and that is my question eventually without (or very few ) BEMF
I am thinking how i can compare a very high end electro motor with 90 % efficiency to this Ossie's config any idea ?
Its a pleasure to be here and share
regards
Laurent
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Hey Jim
Just 2 cells in series. Or more. It just interests me that so many just use 1.2 - 1.5v, AA C D when 3 or 4 button cells or just AAAs would give faster test results in time also.
One reason that I can think of that the caps are not doing well here in replacement of the batteries is, the cap does not have resistance like a battery. With fat caps I can say yes to the resistors to limit the output. The cap as a power source, most tend to forget that the resistance is very very low and will dump way to fast. Here I would highly recommend a resistor to limit the output, and leave the recharge as direct as possible, diodes use at max. The resistor value will have to be experimented with but it may just do the trick. =] there may even have to be a zener across the cap to keep the volts down to a safe area below the caps max volts.
Now lets say the bemf is not quite as much as used, still, well that ratio can be very very close to 100% eff. Then all we need is just a hair of regular charge from the coils from the rotor to make up that tiny percentage and we are there. What do ya think? =]
I have been involved with solid state ways of going about this due to if it ever works, the idea of a spinner in a cell phone for example might not be necessary. But I have gotten up to 97% eff just on just bemf. PWM power supplies can be like that. Now if I can put a few lil coils around the big coil to just capture a bit of field pulses produced by the big one, I just may be able to come up with that 3% or more. =] I dont have big caps yet to work with, but am looking into them.
Mags
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hmmm quiet here now. Was it something I said? Just asking cuz it happens quite a bit that I post a few things and then silence. But anyway....
Some may say Rubbish on my 97% on my output vs input. Did you see my light bulb smoking? If it were on the 5v 1a lil PS I have been using in between battery charges, its not bright at all, which I have shown. But that does not prove much. What i like about this lil supply is that it really does hang at a max of 1a. Now when I put the 5ohm 5w resistor on the output, I can get 4.85v steady across it. So im in the area that I claim. Now just to get that extree 3% or more. I have a lil plan I am going to execute this evening after I eat Lasagna, mmmm Stoffers. =]
As for the Ossie motor, it seems like you guys are somewhere close to 100% eff. Just a few more ingredients and she may be a winner. Some how once you feel you have optimum from the motor itself, maybe placing a couple more of those coils you have maybe an in. or 2 behind each of the operating coils, and a bridge and cap and use another reed to dump the cap into the bat, during times that the bat is not being drained by the motor. It just may take you over the top. Just ideas.
Mags
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hmmm quiet here now. Was it something I said? Just asking cuz it happens quite a bit that I post a few things and then silence. But anyway....
Nope, just got off work. Trying to catch up on my reading.
As far as the resistors, I have not used them either yet. I am only referring to JLNaudin's suggestion to use 2 22ohm resistors in the original 1 set of reeds setup. I have not the resistors that low of value to even try until tonight. I grabbed some under 100 ohm resistors from The Shack today to try. According to JLNaudin, the addition of the very low value resistors decreased the amount of current input, but did not decrease the amount being returned by much at all. The lowest resistor I had to test with was 100 ohm until now. And that was not working at all, lol. All my test's are without resistors so far.
As far as what I plan to do with the spark gap? Not sure yet. I am just kicking around the idea so far. I just know that when I disconnected the bridge while my motor was running, the battery was charging up, while I could hear the rotor change in noise due to bemf, and my reeds switches were about to cry, lol.
As far as using diodes to shunt the spark gaps, or capacitors to filter it, I'm not sure what I think of that yet. I know when you introduce capacitors you can expect to lose nearly half of the energy going into it right off the bat. I was using a shottky bridge to start with when I found that disconnecting it actually charged the battery faster. Still not sure on the explanation for that one yet, but it's interesting.
As far as why using a 1.2v battery instead of anything larger? I have been using larger, I just have not reported the results. I've been using 3 volts, 6 volts, 9 volts, and 12 volts so far, and a few variations in between. Tuning seems to be easier to tweak the results at a much lower voltage so far. Once it gives the desired results at such a low voltage, I'll go back up in voltage and go from there. But for now, the original Ossie Motor was a 1.2v and I've been trying to successfully replicate before I drift to far from the original and get lost.
First off, I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with my dual pulse per coil setup, there is a short somewhere. That's what I will be trying to nail down tonight.
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I have to go and tonight so I can't work on the Ossie or Orzy .
@Mags I think it is a time zone thing. You'll notice I always seem to have a bunch of posts then have to wait until the Northern Hemisphere wakes up to get a response :)
That's really interesting with the resistor & cap. So if the voltage is less that shouldn't effect the flyback? Except for the frequency of the pulse? I have been working with a 55F.
@woopy 4.5 hours Woohoo.
I hate to impose on you guys but can anyone explain that top trace in my last scope shot. The noise from the motor is definitely not my Metglas rattling. Realised I had already uploaded this vid with the noise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEcVPJZl11Q
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I hate to impose on you guys but can anyone explain that top trace in my last scope shot. The noise from the motor is definitely not my Metglas rattling. Uploading a new vid now.
I am probably not the one to answer this question, because I am still trying to obtain a scope myself and I'm by far no expert. It very well could be switch chattering. Or a bouncy switch or something like that. It also could have something to do with your metglas cores, and a sort of resonance happening as the current flow and the permanent magnets field are trying to battle each other to overtake the core. I'm making it up as I go along of course, lol. Just throwing out some ideas.
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That sounds reasonable to me. Just odd to to see that high freq going through the coils punctuated by a longer wave. I think it is a build up in the coils.
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Jim
The coils do have capacitance that could ring them. But what I truly believe is your proximity and orientation of the reed to the coil, the coils field pulse and the reed could be oscillating till the other reed opens then it stops.
So the reeds may not be set up for timing exactly the way you might be seeing them on the scope. 1 could be letting loose a bit earlier than the other then the other is oscillating from the field change from the coil and producing the buzz and that vibration to the table. Normally the coil when pulsed should give 1 bump into vibrating the table, but a whole bunch of quick ones like that and you have your vibration sound problem solved.
So during that time of buzz on the scope, it is probably pulling from the battery to make those buzzing pulses, but also a bunch of kick backs in bemf.
Thats me theory! =]
Mags
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Jim
The coils do have capacitance that could them. But what I truly believe is your proximity and orientation of the reed to the coil, the coils field pulse and the reed could be oscillating till the other reed opens then it stops.
So the reeds may not be set up for timing exactly the way you might be seeing them on the scope. 1 could be letting loose a bit earlier than the other then the other is oscillating from the field change from the coil and producing the buzz and that vibration to the table. Normally the coil when pulsed should give 1 bump into vibrating the table, but a whole bunch of quick ones like that and you have your vibration sound problem solved.
So during that time of buzz on the scope, it is probably pulling from the battery to make those buzzing pulses, but also a bunch of kick backs in bemf.
Thats me theory! =]
Mags
Thanks Mags.
I'll be adding a resistor to my Supercap today. Still find this metglas fascinating
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Jim
Was messing with the idea of adding some recharge coils to the outside of your pulse coils to gather some volts from the system to get you over the hump in eff. If this works, you could possibly run many motors on 1 battery.
Below is my vid. It just shows pulsing a coil, capturing bemf from it and the pickup coil gathering from the first, without diminishing the first bemf. So this should be additional power for you. Even it is little, If the input current does not increase and the rotor does not slow down, its all extree. I like that word, Extree. My brother uses it. =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P34lqMJVSmE
Mags
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@mags I have alkaline 2Dcells, 1AA & 1 AAA running the motor without resistor at the positive of the battery at 1300RPMS, Good to see this baby speed up :) With the resistor I get this pulse which is about twice the height. I think I'll get a dynamo next like Ossie was demonstrating. I'm attempting to charge an old SLA but I'm sure I'm not doing it the right way. I'll find out in the morning.
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Jim
Was messing with the idea of adding some recharge coils to the outside of your pulse coils to gather some volts from the system to get you over the hump in eff. If this works, you could possibly run many motors on 1 battery.
Below is my vid. It just shows pulsing a coil, capturing bemf from it and the pickup coil gathering from the first, without diminishing the first bemf. So this should be additional power for you. Even it is little, If the input current does not increase and the rotor does not slow down, its all extree. I like that word, Extree. My brother uses it. =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P34lqMJVSmE
Mags
Yikes! Great vid but waaaay beyond my skill level. Thanks tho. I 'll watch it several more times and get back to you. In the meantime I think I'll buy a dynamo :) Voltage has gone up 0.8 volts in 23mins. That is nearly 3 times as fast as my D cell without your resistor. Thanks.
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For those of you using a HD motor as your bearing I have found a unique anomoly you should try. Stack 1/2" cylinder Neos on the center (stationary shaft) at the top of your disc motor. It causes the speed to increase and current to decrease.
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hey Jim
Im not sure what you mean by not using the resistor with the batteries. I hadnt recommended it. Now if you are running the system on a cap alone, then a series resistor I would use. But back emf should bypass the resistor back to the battery. Like shown as earlier.
So are you saying your getting better results with alkaline batteries? Or just that the voltage is rising using smaller batteries like AAA.?
Good going.
Mags
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Oh yeah
Now if the resistor with the batteries is to make up for reeds staying on longer than wanted, as they would let the coil charge slower, just as the cap would also need, but more ohms, then I would say the resistor could help some.
I have just, myself, been able to reduce my reed timing pretty good with polarizing mags on the reeds and a couple other techniques. I made some vids a bit ago on reeds.
Mags
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Has anyone tried this with Adams coils? I'm giving it a go with three bi-fillar wound and various combinations but the reed timing is a little tricky.
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Hello all
I made a new test on the ossie motor original config of the coils that is - + -+ - + - +
i disconnected the reed switch and diode circuitery and hooked up the coils directly to my orbo circuit see pix 1
that is a single Hall effect sensor circuit actuacting a mosfet to the coils.
And it works very nice and the current is also very low and the system works very regular and smooth And i get very similar trace as for the double reed circuit see the scope shot pix 2 and 3.
and now my question to you
WHAT DOES EXACTLY MEAN AND SHOW THIS UP AN DOWN SCOPE TRACE ????????
When the trace goes up that shows an impuls from the battery = energy lost to power the rotor OK But is there an hidden( behind ) generation curve which does not appears ?? I mean is there an original AC curve covered by the power pulse ?? which make me think that could be an equality between the in and out of energy in the upper curve ??
when the trace goes down that shows what ? Is it a net gain of energy which surpass the upward one or simply the mirror energy which cancel the upward one. so total balance is zero I mean very nice AC trace but only for the show and unsuable ??
Thanks for a comprehensible explanation i need to learn slowly please
regards
laurent
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Oh yeah
Now if the resistor with the batteries is to make up for reeds staying on longer than wanted, as they would let the coil charge slower, just as the cap would also need, but more ohms, then I would say the resistor could help some.
I have just, myself, been able to reduce my reed timing pretty good with polarizing mags on the reeds and a couple other techniques. I made some vids a bit ago on reeds.
Mags
Mm the volts initially went up but have decreased overnight. I was using the resistor with the batteries to see what the effect would be b4 trying with supercap.
I think I actually got better results with my circuit without the bridge. I'll switch back today to confirm.
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when the trace goes down that shows what ? Is it a net gain of energy which surpass the upward one or simply the mirror energy which cancel the upward one. so total balance is zero I mean very nice AC trace but only for the show and unsuable ??
Thanks for a comprehensible explanation i need to learn slowly please
I what I see from your scope shots is:
- you have motor working in attraction mode, because generator pulse fires right between magnets and it turns off when magnet comes close to the center od the coil.
- your generatur pulse is approx. 4V DC on the coil and induced voltage is 5V AC.
I can't say if you're getting more out than in if I don't see scope shot across the small resistor (1 ohm or less).
Have fun,
Frenky
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I what I see from your scope shots is:
- you have motor working in attraction mode, because generator pulse fires right between magnets and it turns off when magnet comes close to the center od the coil.
- your generatur pulse is approx. 4V DC on the coil and induced voltage is 5V AC.
I can't say if you're getting more out than in if I don't see scope shot across the small resistor (1 ohm or less).
Have fun,
Frenky
I agree. I'm not a pro at reading the scope yet, but if I'm reading correctly, his pulse width is a bit wide. I know it will run at higher rpm with a wider pulse width, but if the goal was to replicate what Ossie has said, then the pulse width should be hidden inside the AC wave. But what I do not quite understand is how you are seeing that he is getting higher AC voltage than the DC he is putting in? Like I said I am still learning to read scope traces, but by seeing his pulse flatline at the peak, it appears the AC wave is less than the DC pulse. Could you possibly explain to me how I'm misunderstand it? I would expect to see instead of the flatline, the upwards curve of the top of the AC wave, as it over powers the pulse. Thanks for any clarification.
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You can see from the bottom part of signal that it's size is 2.5 divs. 1div is 2V so AC is 5V.
But it could be that the Y scope axis is not calibrated to the 0 value correctly and that generator voltage is actually bigger than induced voltage.
The would also explain why there is no "bump" over the flat generator voltage.
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A little update on my motor so far. I have the dual pulse setup made and running now. I've been banging my head against the wall tuning it, but I've finally got it running really well. Only problem is that it's not as efficient as when I run it on one pulse per magnet pass. Using 4 reeds is not easy to tune at all, and is next to impossible to pulse it correctly without causing a short circuit. In other words, when the magnet is at TDC of the coil, it is trying to engage one reed from the first set, and one reed from the second set causing a direct short. When the reeds are moved far enough apart to make sure there is no short circuit, then the pulse is not timed proper anymore. Long story short, I'm working on biasing the reeds with a small permanent magnet to tune the pulses better. Also I am working on different layouts for the reeds, to help avoid this tuning problem. Including some idea's that were shared here earlier.
Overall, so far the double pulse setup does run much faster rpm, but it also loses more energy faster due to the slightly off time pulsing I have to be using to avoid a short circuit situation. Good and bad results. I'll share more when I get it running better. Interesting enough, if I disconnect the bridge, the battery begins to charge up, without any recovery circuit connected. Still weird, but of course murder on the reeds.
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You can see from the bottom part of signal that it's size is 2.5 divs. 1div is 2V so AC is 5V.
But it could be that the Y scope axis is not calibrated to the 0 value correctly and that generator voltage is actually bigger than induced voltage.
The would also explain why there is no "bump" over the flat generator voltage.
Okay, so you see what I'm looking at too then. I thought I was reading it right. I was also seeing the wave drop deeper on the negative side than the positive and I figured that was where you were coming up with the higher induced voltage. It just looked a bit funny. What would help would be to let the motor get to the top rpms, then switch off the power and take a scope shot immediately if possible. Then we could see the induced voltage wave to compare to. Just a thought.
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Okay, a little quick fun with photoshop and I think this is what is going on with that trace for sure. It is generating a higher AC voltage than the DC pulse, but just barely. It is the BEMF of the drive pulse itself that forces the voltage lower so we do not see the "bump" we would expect. You can also see the small spike on switch opening. That little spike seems to be close to the same voltage as the regular induced voltage if there was no BEMF at that moment of switch open.
A second thought from a bit deeper study. When looking at how the coils were wound for this trace, leads me to believe the peak of the wave is more narrow than what JLNaudin and Ossie show because the inside core is wider, and the outside diameter of the coil turns is smaller than what Ossie and JLNaudin used. Not that either is better or worse, just sharing what I am seeing by picking this trace apart. In order to hide the pulse completely inside this AC wave it would require a fairly small pulse width. This of course decreases RPM possibly to much. Coil diameter may be factor to pay more close attention to, and not just inductance or number of turns. A wider AC wave peak may be more beneficial for efficiency and higher rpms... At least that's what I see.
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What would help would be to let the motor get to the top rpms, then switch off the power and take a scope shot immediately if possible. Then we could see the induced voltage wave to compare to. Just a thought.
Hi CP,
I agree and perhaps the best would be for Laurent to pull the MOSFET out of his board by hand, just after the power switchoff, to get rid of any influence on the waveshape the FET inner body diode may have.
Also, I wonder whether Laurent tried to find the best position for the Hall sensor, not only shifting it sideways alongside the circumference but radially moving it closer or away from the magnets rotational circumference.
That movements should change the length of the horizontal cut on his upper peak waveform.
rgds, Gyula
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@ Futuristic and Cp and Gyula
thanks for replying my boring question
1- the scope trace (see pix) is perfectly centered and if it would be no pulse the AC trace would be + 5.2 volt and - 5.2 volts . as Cp showed in is post
so if i understand well, the red impulse rectangle " eat " the positive green generation curve and supress the small blue bump which desappears this is due to a CEMF ?
2- now what shows the negative purple curve which is not affected by the red pulse.
for info i have inserted my shottky bridge across the coil and i get the inversion of the negative AC trace, which become positive. But if i try to charge my supercap directly from the bridge the Rpm first fall down and than as the cap charges they go up again. Same thing with the current which first goes up and than down.
Now the super cap charges quite fast at the beginning and than slower and slower Now after 3 hours the super cap is at 4.37 volts still climbing and the battery is down at 4.25 volts (it was 4.29 at the beginning).
The Rpm was at 175 at the beginning, went down to 162 when i connected the supercap and are now back to 172 seems at max with thge battery at 4.25 volt .
Now the question is my motor using the juice of the battery and go down and down and in counterpart the supercap pumps the energy of this negative Ac curve wich stay undisturbed by the pulse as is positive sister ? And as this negative curve is slightly higher in negative volts (5.2 volts at the beginning and now on my scope is at 4.96 volts) Does it show trhat the supercap will charge up to probably more than 4.5volts (depending of diodes and circuit resistance) while the battery will go down more ? How can we put the supercap backstored energy in the battery ? Any idea ?
3- As the motor is an attraction motor, we aggree that the impulse current is independant of the magnet strength .correct?
If yes the bigger the magnet , the stronger the torque for the same impulse current? correct ?
So would it be a good idea to place a second magnet on the other side of the coil so double torque for the same current ? correct?
4- where and what is the best position of the magnet to the coil. Must the magnet be round to fit the round aire core ? Can it be a rectangular magnet with the aircore width but longer, covering the whole height of the coil ?
any idea ?
And it is all for this post
thanks to all
Laurent
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Just one quick answer. ;)
I have tried putting one magnet behind stator coil, because by logic the coil should extend magnet's field when energised. By doing this there should be more torque, but my experiment didn't show any improvement.
Please try it yourself maybe you will have more success, because in theory it should work.
Frenky
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4- where and what is the best position of the magnet to the coil. Must the magnet be round to fit the round aire core ? Can it be a rectangular magnet with the aircore width but longer, covering the whole height of the coil ?
any idea ?
This could be tested in Femm (magnetic field simulation software), but I haven't been using it for quite some years so I am probably not the right person to do it. :D
But my opinion is the bigger and the stronger magnets will show the best results.
Frenky
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Hi Frenky
what i meant is a sandwitch rotating rotor see picture. Can be mounted on 2 disc and flat coil config or as usual on a rotor with a drum on it to support the outer magnet.
i am not knowing FEMM but if somebody could help
last update my battery is now after 5 hours at 4.24 volts and the supercap at 4.43 volts Rpm at always 172
regards
Laurent
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Great thinking.
This would for really improve performance.
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And I would go with the top design because airgap betwen coil and magnets can be less than in bottom design.
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Because of how magnetic fields work, the bottom design will work better - magnetic fields want to 'line up' and in the top design, they are lined up the entire time, whereas in the bottom design, they are not in-line until you hit the center. I've tried both styles in other testing and noticed a significant difference. It's also easier to secure them against getting too close and touching, resulting in additional resistance.
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Magnetic fields of magnet pairs in both configurations are lined up all the time, because both are on rotor.
And magnetic field of coil is pulling that field into alignment with coil in both cases.
But smaller the air gap, the greater the force of pull.
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2- now what shows the negative purple curve which is not affected by the red pulse.
The neg. purple curve is the negative half wave part of the induced voltage during one full turn of the rotor. Here is a good Java animation for seeing a conventional generator principle, the same happens in your present setup too:
http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph14e/generator_e.htm
Note the voltage waveform has a zero crossing just like you have, this happens any time when your rotor magnets are just between two adjacent coils.
And if you choose the 'With commutator' position in the Java applet, then you just connected your full wave diode bridge to the coil outputs, and you get the negative half waves already turned upside and embedded between the positive ones. This is what full wave rectification like.
But if i try to charge my supercap directly from the bridge the Rpm first fall down and than as the cap charges they go up again. Same thing with the current which first goes up and than down.
This is natural and shows Lenz law: the capacitor draws current while charging up, and current is taken from the induced voltage and this process exponentially goes on as the cap charges up: first the capacitor is empty, hence the charging current (which is the load current for the coils' induced voltage) is at its maximum, then current reduces as the stored voltage across the capacitor increases. Had you had a resistor load say a 10 Ohm) across the bridge output, your rpm would have reduced to a steady lower value and would have remained there.
Now the question is my motor using the juice of the battery and go down and down
I am afraid yes but I have not built such setup and cannot confirm this, please read and study Ossie's letter, it says the voltage in the battery can be kept at the same level IF you make the switches ON and OFF times correctly, the letter is quoted on Naudin site,
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm#comments
and in counterpart the supercap pumps the energy of this negative Ac curve wich stay undisturbed by the pulse as is positive sister ?
No I do not think the voltage in the cap has "pumping connection" to the negative AC curve you refer to in your scope shot as you meant. In fact, that negative waveform is also used for charging the cap just like the positive waveform, the diode bridge changes the negative half to be also a positive one-- the bridge does its job, a full wave rectifier.
How can we put the supercap backstored energy in the battery ? Any idea ?
Normally by using a dedicated DC/DC converter but it can only be 95-96% efficient in selected cases so you would have to have at least a COP of 1.04 - 1.05 coming from your motor setup to compensate for the converter 'underuntity' , to get a real selfrunner. Others opinion are welcome here!
(On a real selfrunner I mean a device that has a COP>1 and part of its output energy can be used for solving its own energy supply.)
3- As the motor is an attraction motor, we agree that the impulse current is independant of the magnet strength .correct?
If yes the bigger the magnet , the stronger the torque for the same impulse current? correct ?
Yes for both, though it could be a repel motor too.
I would vote for making such a motor with as many small coils in series and very strong magnets as possible to place on a rotor of a chosen size. Many magnets mean much more flux interacting, giving more torque.
So would it be a good idea to place a second magnet on the other side of the coil so double torque for the same current ? correct?
Frenky answered this and I agree with him, though I have not tried this on an air core coil. It surely works on an ferromagnetic cored coil. If it cannot be made to work, then the lack of a ferromagnetic core is the answer.
4- where and what is the best position of the magnet to the coil. Must the magnet be round to fit the round aire core ? Can it be a rectangular magnet with the aircore width but longer, covering the whole height of the coil ? any idea ?
Ossie explained where it is the best, read his letter referred to above
and see this scope shot
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/images/ossie2.jpg
This means that it is better to use two switches, not only one. With the first switch you can choose the precise ON and with the second one the OFF time, Ossie says he positions the first reed horizontally and the second one vertically, you may wish to copy this with your second Hall sensor and circuit? Or your using only one switch, positioning it also radially (not only sideways) from the rotor magnets, this may not give an optimum switch on-off timing, it sounds better using two independent things for fulfilling two independent tasks.
rgds, Gyula
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Magnetic fields of magnet pairs in both configurations are lined up all the time, because both are on rotor.
And magnetic field of coil is pulling that field into alignment with coil in both cases.
But smaller the air gap, the greater the force of pull.
So the coil isn't there to be used as an electromagnet (attraction/repulsion)? If not, then I don't think it's going to make a big difference between 1 magnet and 2 magnets. You'll get more voltage from the higher flux density on the coil, but you're also going to get more drag on the system, from the increased wattage pulled from the coils.
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And I would go with the top design because airgap betwen coil and magnets can be less than in bottom design.
Hi Frenky,
I would like to understand why you think so, I have read your next letter on this too (Reply#222) but I do not get it.
If I see Laurent's both drawings correctly, then assuming for both we would use the same coils, magnets and the same distances I think we would get the same torque. And both designs let the same distances and material use, don't they? Maybe I miss something, please tell.
I agree, the smaller the distances between the two facing magnets, the bigger the torque can be, this would involve using very flat / thin coils.
By the way, Laurent first drawing recalls Garry Stanley's pulse motor setup, and if I remember well back to 2003 or so you also built it, right? Or was that guy another 'futuristic', I do not know. Sorry if I am mistaken.
Nevertheless, Garry used about 10mm gap between the facing magnets and he took the pancake-like air core coils from old floppy disk drives back then. And he used two such coils, the thickness of one such coil was 3-4mm, and he sandwiched two such coils one over the other as the stators, thus the total coil thickness was max 8mm, just passing between the facing magnets. He connected such two coils in parallel and he had 12 such coil pairs and 12 facing magnet pairs. The 12 (parallel connected) coil pairs (24 air core coils alltogether) were connected in series and switched on and off together by a power transistor from a 96V battery bank. He stated a COP of around 1.6 but unfortunately he never did a real torque measurement, and there were some others building his setup, but never reported real torque measurements I am aware of.
Garry always tried to explain that his paralleled coil pairs has no Lenz effect because he connected the start of one coil to the end of the other coil and vice versa (or say the + of the first is tied to the - of the other and the - of the first is tied to the + of the other) and fed them between the two start-end joint wires. He stated that by connecting them like that, in 'backwards' parallel, the induced voltages would mutually ruin each other, hence no Lenz. This explanation was rejected by many people.
My understanding is that (say we use such a coil pair in attraction) when we switch on the current to the coil pair, there is normal backemf developed all the time the magnets are attracted towards the coil pair but when we switch the current off at the TDC, then the magnets can continue moving away freely, there will be no any further interaction against their movement. However, I also say this is the same case for using only one such flat coil and not a pair of them. And for using one flat coil, the facing magnet pairs may get even closer, incresing flux density in the gap. The very good thing is you use both sides of the coil, no waste for one unused pole on the other side you also paid for in the input power.
rgds, Gyula
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So the coil isn't there to be used as an electromagnet (attraction/repulsion)? If not, then I don't think it's going to make a big difference between 1 magnet and 2 magnets. You'll get more voltage from the higher flux density on the coil, but you're also going to get more drag on the system, from the increased wattage pulled from the coils.
Hi,
I think woopy meant the coil to be used as an electromagnet, switched on at the right moment to attract the magnets and off at TDC. At least I assume he thought that when he draw those two setups and this way both sides poles of the coil are utilized. And if this is so, then please explain if you still see bigg difference between his two setups drawn?
Thanks
Gyula
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Thanks to all and especially at Gyula for taking so long time to answer my questions and each time i learn something and it is why this thread is for me very interesting.
And to be very clear. i am looking for something usefull and this motor IMO has something that can be usefull. (By the way Gyula any internet link to usefull Garry's work please)
I feel the torque with my fingers and i make some comparison with high end electric motor i have and the effect of Lenz law is very different . I mean when i brake very slightly those very efficient motor , the current immediately climbs very high and with my ossie very crude version, by braking the shaft, i feel a good torque until very low RPM and the current goes up but never so high as for standard electromotor.
That is why i will try this sandwitch config to get a strong torque with the minimum current i don't know if it is OU and it is not my beer at the present.
I will choose the flat coil config, because the magnets passes on the center of the coil without speed difference as it would be on the drum config
last update after 9 hours spinning battery voltage at 4.20 volts and supercap at 4.54 volt and Rpm between 171 and 172 RPM I feel that the supercap pumps all the generative induced wave which seems to be higher in votage than the battery voltage. But of course if have to loose a part of this stored energy through a DC/DC converter to be able to use it and ofcourse it is not very usefull yet
but perhaps with sandwitch config we can get double generation of energy for the same input and in this case !!!!!!!!! ????????
good luck at all
Laurent
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So the coil isn't there to be used as an electromagnet (attraction/repulsion)?
Yes, of course it is. If the coil wouldn't be used as electromagnet then the motor wouldn't run.
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Hi Laurent,
What current consumption do you think you have now from that 4.2V battery?
And what type of supercap do you have, make or type, Farad and voltage value?
Unfortunately Garry "disappeared" from mail groups he used to write to. His own yahoo group is inactive for years now and most of his work is there.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pulse_Motor_Group/
Many good info is also included by Garry in Stefan Hartmann earlier yahoo group before he opened this overunity.com site:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/free-energy/
Maybe a membership is still possible for these non-active groups, to see the uploaded relevant photos or files. I can access both if you need help.
Last week I wrote an e-mail to Garry I wanted to ask something but his earlier address is not valid any more. What is more his own website (in New Zeeland) where he originally started to publish openly his tests is already taken down. His site was at www.cable.net.nz he took it down in 2006.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Laurent,
What current consumption do you think you have now from that 4.2V battery?
And what type of supercap do you have, make or type, Farad and voltage value?
Unfortunately Garry "disappeared" from mail groups he used to write to. His own yahoo group is inactive for years now and most of his work is there.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pulse_Motor_Group/
Many good info is also included by Garry in Stefan Hartmann earlier yahoo group before he opened this overunity.com site:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/free-energy/
Maybe a membership is still possible for these non-active groups, to see the uploaded relevant photos or files. I can access both if you need help.
Last week I wrote an e-mail to Garry I wanted to ask something but his earlier address is not valid any more. What is more his own website (in New Zeeland) where he originally started to publish openly his tests is already taken down. His site was at www.cable.net.nz he took it down in 2006.
rgds, Gyula
with wayback you can see the old Garry pages:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.cable.net.nz
UPDATED
http://web.archive.org/web/20070614070723/http://www.cable.net.nz/ou/
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@Gyula:
Yes I was writing about Garry Stanley on energeticforum. I was in contact with Garry back then and I believe that his invention of flipped pancake coils eliminates lenz drag. It took me some time to understand the principle even tough its very simple when you get it. ;) I was using the same coils from 5.25" floppy drive and the first time I powered on my motor it was torn apart in just a few seconds due to such high rpm. And magnets were flying all over the place. ;D
About the two rotor designs... You can see on picture below that drum rotor has bigger air gap when using the same coils and magnets.
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with wayback you can see the old Garry pages:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.cable.net.nz
Thank you, it did not occur to me now. Here it is:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070519141509rn_1/www.cable.net.nz/ou/
http://web.archive.org/web/20050219145625/www.cable.net.nz/ou/latest+updates.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20070519171951/www.cable.net.nz/ou/Lenz.html
EDIT I have just noticed you also linked them. Thanks.
-
...
About the two rotor designs... You can see on picture below that drum rotor has bigger air gap when using the same coils and magnets.
Ok I understand it now and I agree with you.
One more question: after your Garry motor fell apart, did you rebuild it for a more robut setup and if so did you measure torque on it? Or are you aware of anybody who did some torque measurements on his motor? Thanks, Gyula
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here more:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/free-energy/files/anti-lenz/
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6116.0
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Ok I understand it now and I agree with you.
One more question: after your Garry motor fell apart, did you rebuild it for a more robut setup and if so did you measure torque on it? Or are you aware of anybody who did some torque measurements on his motor? Thanks, Gyula
Yes I did build more robust version, but I have made smaller diameter rotor and I used different bearing and motor performed poorly. After that failure I started building Newmans motor and never went back to Garrys motor.
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Wow fantastic thread guys. Woopy I have switched nack to my original circuit without bridge or schottkys and I am seeing similar (though not as neat) as yours. I will be digesting everyone's analysis of that tonight.
Yesterday I successfully attached a DC motor up to my rotor. My rotor definitely did work. I need to stabilise the setup more tho as there was a great deal of wobble. My old circuit on 6V is doing about 1250RPM & when tuned is running with no drops. Tuning is the hard part. Looking forward to a more effective circuit without reeds.
Here is current scope shot.
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This is getting to be a better picture for me. Currently at 895RPM I'm thinking that to try & get this running off a super cap is going to be a lot harder than either charging another battery or running a 6v Globe on it. When I put a 6v globe on it now my analogue meter drops about 0.5v slowly (haven't timed it yet). I'm wondering what is a better 'proof'. Having the rotor do work or running a globe for an indefinite period?
Thanks
-
RPMS are increasing on this setup as well. now up over 1000 from 895 in about 10mins. I've seen this happen a few times.
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I'm attempting to create what was explained to me as
a tank circuit in the coils. I have placed a 2 variable resitors 180deg apart in the coils at 10ohm waveform below & setup. Voltage at 4.72 rpms 540. If anything interesting happens I'll report back.
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I think I should be getting a little excited but I'm not sure. I just successfully aligned my rotor to hold a motor I pulled out of a CD ROM. It is generating .3volts. What do I do now? I have put a diode between the positive of the motor to the battery& hooked the neg direct. I think it is doing around 700 - 800 rpm but I forgot to put on new reflective tape. DOH. Don't want to stop it for the moment.
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Ok stopped it attached tape. RPMS rising rapidly output from generator 0.5v. Battery steadily rising. Think this needs a vid.
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Hi JB,
I cannot recall, your battery now is a rechargable one?
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Sorry 4XAA Alkaline. OM Original circuit. 2 Diodes.
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0.6v coming off my generator now. My battery doesn't seem to be taking it tho. As my motor is not tuned well atm to get the gen running I was hoping to turn some of the rotor power back into the battery before running a globe or charging a 2nd battery pack.
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Hey Jim
You will have to gear the lil motor to get higher voltages from it. It will need thousands of rpm.
mags
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If you put 1ohm resistor on the small motor contacts you can measure power out.
The ultimate test would be to have motor running full speed from battery then switch it to run from a capacitor for 10 sec and have another capacitor charged from small motor.
You could then calculate the difference in energy in and out. Energy of capacitor is W=CU^2/2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capeng.html
Frenky
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Volts hurt my head - can you measure the amps so we can figure out how many watts the motor is generating? Please!!!!
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Thanks @mags @futuristic @solinear Haven't measured amps but obviously way to loooow :( Have another motor I'll try tonight. I was trying to avoid gearing up given all the potential failure points.
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hi all
a lot of work but really good results
my first sandwitch motor works perfectly See pix 1 and 2
Very easy set up i took the coils of the previuos motor and glued them on heavy plastic blocs. The plastic blocs are also glued on a sand paper so i can place them on the basis wood plate where i want and they stay steady. So i can tune the coils at demand and it is the same for the rotor so i can get out the rotor (which is also mounted on a CD with underneath sand paper ) very practical config to tune every thing very precisely. and allows quick modif
and now to the results
Simply really impressive
in my previous post i could report that from the battery at about 4.2 volts i could charge the supercap (for Gyula it is a serie of 2 2.7 volt 10 F super cap = 5.4 volt) up to 4.55 voltr after 8 hours.
this evening i connected the super cap at 3.8 volt at 20.00 'oclock and 3 hours later it is already at 5.31 volts (climbing) and the battery is at 4.12 volts
I made 2 config
1-with the single Hall sensor and circuitery the Hall circuit consume from itself under a battery at 4,2 volts about 7 milliamp and when i find the right Hall sensor position the ampmeter shows NOTHING more than the basic circuitery difficults to say because the amperemeter flickers between 6.4 t0 7.6 but anyway very very low ? This shows that without the circuit consumpton the motor could work with ALMOST NO current ? OUCH ?
2- two reeds without electronic and schottky bridge across the coils the best results i could get is not better as with the electronics but the scope trace shows an impulse that does not "eat " the induced voltage and the positive BLUE bump of my previous drawing. This is the config of the actual super cxap charging.
3- the rotor of the sandwich is made of a stack of magnets that i have at disposal . But they are far not so powerfull than my 20 mm neo magnet that i used on my previuos test.
So i have to order more of those powefull magnets and it is very promising
good luck at all
Laurent
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@Woopy. Damn I'm gonna have to make one of those now. That is a really impressive trace from where I'm sitting.
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@Woopy: Really great work! ;)
Frenky
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lett s go to bed 12 o'clock here in europe but just for info
very last update
battery at 4.11 volts and supercap at 5.57 volts and climbing ?
please replicate this motor i am sure it is very very interseting
good night
Laurent
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could 'n t prevent me to look at the meters a last time before sleeping
and the battery is always at 4.11 volts and the supercap voltage at 5. 84volts (climbing)
much above the nominal rated voltage of 5.4 volts
If i suppose that the scope no load max trace is at about 9 6 volts do i suppose that the 5.4 nominal voltage will be pushed away it's capability ?
Answers tomorrow if always alive HE HE !!
regards
Laurent
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Last pipi before sleeping and just a look at the meters
battery at 4.11 volts and supercap at 5 .95 volts hope it will not explode during the night ! houuuilllle !!
laurent
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and the battery is always at 4.11 volts and the supercap voltage at 5. 84volts (climbing)
much above the nominal rated voltage of 5.4 volts
Laurent
@All
Don't try this at home...Normal capacitors have zero tolerance
for voltages above their published working voltage. Not 10%
but zero V above their WVDC. Their dielectrics punch through
and they become electrically leaky. They start to conduct dc
current then heat up. Generally, capacitors don't fail in some
friendly manner either. Supercaps, I don't know. Your PMM
is going to need some crowbar circuit protection against
capacitor overvoltage. It's definitely not a "Put it somewhere
running and forget about it" sort of thing.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@All
Don't try this at home...Normal capacitors have zero tolerance
for voltages above their published working voltage. Not 10%
but zero V above their WVDC. Their dielectrics punch through
and they become electrically leaky. They start to conduct dc
current then heat up. Generally, capacitors don't fail in some
friendly manner either. Supercaps, I don't know. Your PMM
is going to need some crowbar circuit protection against
capacitor overvoltage. It's definitely not a "Put it somewhere
running and forget about it" sort of thing.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Uhoh - @woopy has gone to bed.
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@woopy,
Great setup, and great work!
BUT....
Not a good choice to leave it running to overcharge those caps. Mscoffman is 100% correct here guys, this is not a set it and leave it situation. Woopy, your committing a form of circuit suicide here, lol. If you are not awaken by a similar sound to a gun shot when a capacitor explodes, then you may want to check all your components for damage. I do not recall your exact circuit setup, but at the very least if one of those caps fails, you no longer have a recovery circuit running so you most likely have been pounding your components with high voltage if the motor continues to run. Sorry man, sometimes we learn lessons the hard way. Good luck!
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On a good note, I'm excited! I have been digging really deep and hard to find me an oscilloscope to order. I finally found one and it's on its way! It's a pretty good, old scope. Tektronix 50MHZ 2 channel, and I got it for $60 after shipping!!! It was from a seller that did not know how to use it or even really what it was. I instructed him how to run a couple tests and he sent me pictures of it, so I know it is in good working condition! I can finally see what my circuit's are doing pretty soon when it comes in and stop guessing, lol... Now I can get back to work on my projects! Hopefully I'll have some more data to post soon.
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On a good note, I'm excited! I have been digging really deep and hard to find me an oscilloscope to order. I finally found one and it's on its way! It's a pretty good, old scope. Tektronix 50MHZ 2 channel, and I got it for $60 after shipping!!! It was from a seller that did not know how to use it or even really what it was. I instructed him how to run a couple tests and he sent me pictures of it, so I know it is in good working condition! I can finally see what my circuit's are doing pretty soon when it comes in and stop guessing, lol... Now I can get back to work on my projects! Hopefully I'll have some more data to post soon.
Congrats CP. Looking forward to learning heaps from your scope shots. I'm trying a motor out of a recharable torch. Don't really want to resort to gearing up. See how we go. edit: Got into trouble from the Grandkids for pulling apart their fave torch. 3&7 yo just don't get the whole overunity thing.
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Good morning all
still alive and no gun shot during the night
and the motor spins hapily
battery at 4.07 volts and supercap at 6.65 volts. I suppose it is not good for the 5.4 volts rated supercap so i stop the game and will order stronger magnets.
But any idea why this happens ?
regards
Laurent
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Good morning all
still alive and no gun shot during the night
and the motor spins hapily
battery at 4.07 volts and supercap at 6.65 volts. I suppose it is not good for the 5.4 volts rated supercap so i stop the game and will order stronger magnets.
But any idea why this happens ?
regards
Laurent
You got lucky buddy.... Good thing you stopped the run, I was getting worried it was going to turn out really bad. As far as why this happens, I think you are referring to the fact that the cap loaded up at a higher voltage than the run battery. If this is what you are referring to, then you must realize that when the switch is opened and the magnetic field collapses, it collapses with a higher voltage but lower current. Sort of a natural transformer if you will. It is not uncommon for low run voltages to charge caps up over 50 volts using collapsing fields, sometimes WAY OVER 50 volts. Just depends on the setup. Your setup may be doing extremely well and could be very efficient, but please dont make the mistake of thinking because the capacitor charged to a higher voltage than the run battery that there must be more total energy coming out than what you are putting in. Capacitors tend to be kind of lossy, and the actual energy in a capacitor is quite difficult to compare to the actual energy in a battery. But using the proper equations, E=1/2C*V2, you can very accurately tell how much energy is in a capacitor. A battery is just not that easy to measure, and a volt meter can lie to you when measuring them especially when a surface charge is present. It's like comparing apples to oranges. But sometimes that's just what we have to work with. Keep your head up, and keep rolling forward! Your bringing in some great data here for us all to kick around.
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battery at 4.07 volts and supercap at 6.65 volts. I suppose it is not good for the 5.4 volts rated supercap so i stop the game and will order stronger magnets.
But any idea why this happens ?
Your induced voltage is approx 10V AC. So your supercap would eventually charge to 10 volts if it wouldn't break before.
It's not good for supercap to overvoltage it because it will start to leak and lose it's ability to hold charge.
Frenky
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....
1 -with the single Hall sensor and circuitery the Hall circuit consume from itself under a battery at 4,2 volts about 7 milliamp and when i find the right Hall sensor position the ampmeter shows NOTHING more than the basic circuitery difficults to say because the amperemeter flickers between 6.4 t0 7.6 but anyway very very low ? This shows that without the circuit consumpton the motor could work with ALMOST NO current ? OUCH ?
Hi,
If you use the schematic shown in your post here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8731.0;attach=42071 then I think you could increase the 1 kOhm resistor up to even 4.7 kOhm in the collector of the 2N2222 to reduce the average 6-7mA current to 3-4mA or so (the 1 kOhm if it really 1 kOhm, directly shunts your battery whenever the 2N2222 is ON).
Also you may wish to select some TL4905 for less current (their data sheet says their typical current draw is about 4mA and the max is around seven, manufacturing tolerances).
What are your coils DC resistances now, I cannot recall? (I know they are +-+-+-+- in series.)
Thanks for the cap data.
rgds, Gyula
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If you use the schematic shown in your post here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8731.0;attach=42071 then I think you could increase the 1 kOhm resistor up to even 4.7 kOhm in the collector of the 2N2222 to reduce the average 6-7mA current to 3-4mA or so (the 1 kOhm if it really 1 kOhm, directly shunts your battery whenever the 2N2222 is ON).
Also you may wish to select some TL4905 for less current (their data sheet says their typical current draw is about 4mA and the max is around seven, manufacturing tolerances).
rgds, Gyula
Hi Gyula
You may recall the circuit you suggested for the Sotropa Motor using a Hall IC. Rather than using power from the source to trigger the transistor, I isolated the Hall circuit and used a separate 2V battery. This eliminated the power consumption from the source.
Tropes
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@Gyula
thanks a new time . Effectively the amps went dow almost by the half with 4.7 kohm resistor at the collector . Can i try higher resistor value or will it destroy the transistor ?
My tle 4905 is rated at typical current 3 to 7 max miliamps , do you know better one ?
What is this circuit that Tropes mentionned in the above post, do you know it ?
the resistance of all my coils in serie is 55 ohms and the inductance 39 mh.
Now to the last result
I connected the motor to a 12.2 volts (lipo) battery and positionned the Hall sensor to works in attraction mode (it works also in repulsion)
the motor consumes 10 Milli amps
than i connected a full wave bridge (not shottky) and got a very strong flyback spike. (pix 2)
than i connected a big cap 10000 micro F 100 volt to the bridge. And there the cap charges up to 50 volts in half an hour and went up to 56 volts.(pix 1)
the charge consume a lot of miliamps very shortly (some seconds) until the cap was at 12.5 volts than until the 56 volts charging process DO NOT TAKE ANY MILIAMPS at the motor as if the cap nor bridge was there. I tried to diconnect the cap than the bridge and reconnect it and the amps stay at 10 miliamps steady The charging process uses only the flyback spike.
pix 3 shows the "wide" usefull spike of 2ms
Very interesting what do you think ?
regards
Laurent
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hi all
i could set the current at a steady 7 miliamps and the big cap charges to 55.4 volt.
For info with the 12.2 volts battery, the Hall circuit alone consumes 5.6 miliamps that is to say that the motor itself uses 1.4 miliamps (7-5.6) and it spins happily at 453 Rpm and can charge a big cap to 55,4 volts.
Not too bad for a crude wobling CD, some market coils and old HDD reading head bearings and neo ring magnets.
regards
Laurent
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hi all
i could set the current at a steady 7 miliamps and the big cap charges to 55.4 volt.
For info with the 12.2 volts battery, the Hall circuit alone consumes 5.6 miliamps that is to say that the motor itself uses 1.4 miliamps (7-5.6) and it spins happily at 453 Rpm and can charge a big cap to 55,4 volts.
Not too bad for a crude wobling CD, some market coils and old HDD reading head bearings and neo ring magnets.
regards
Laurent
Yup, your doing great. You can see what I was saying about how it's not that difficult to charge a cap to 50v or more if your using flyback voltage. The reason it charges so fast until it matches your induced voltage is simply because of the generator effect of your motor, and the run battery voltage. But after it climbs over the normal generator voltage, and the run battery voltage, the rest is all flyback voltage. In a sense you are sort of just filling that cap with the run battery, the generator, and the flyback until it goes over those voltages. Then flyback only, (hopefully with a bit of added BEMF attached!) You should have noticed the rpms speed up the higher the voltage on the cap rose until it went higher than the generator voltage also. At this point, you really are no longer converting the kinetic energy of that rotor to electrical energy anymore, your simply catching the flyback from the run pulses. If you wish to keep making use of that spinning rotor, you could dump the cap back into the battery once per revolution or so, or maybe use a zener diode. Then you would not only keep catching the flyback voltage, you would also keep using the motion of the rotor as a generator to keep your battery charged longer. But you would of course still only make use of the generating voltage if you chose a run battery that was less in voltage than what the generator puts out. The rpms will go down a bit, but you will keep recharging that run battery. Just a thought.
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Hi Captain
thanks for answer have you some shematic as how to transfer the cap energy back to the run battery or how to use and what for a Zener diode value ?
Is it a way to calculate the power going in the big cap along the time . As the time from about 12.5 to 50 volt was 30 minutes is it possible to deduce some power from those datas ?
Or what would be the datas to register to get the power of those Flyback spikes ?
regards
laurent
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Ok tried a couple of diff motors last night. I have 3 multimeters but I don't trust any of them anymore :) I think I have to go & buy a Fluke. Anyway the voltage off the motors is 2.5v but I used my tongue multimeter & there was no buzz so I don't believe the amps are much even tho my analogue meter says they're around 1A.
However using the torch motor I successfully recharged the torch battery. So if I can do that, I should be able to get the charge back into the running battery? Am I doing it wrong? I simply have a diode between the positive of the generator & the battery & the ground of the generator going to the ground of the battery. Thanks.
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Hi Captain
thanks for answer have you some shematic as how to transfer the cap energy back to the run battery or how to use and what for a Zener diode value ?
Is it a way to calculate the power going in the big cap along the time . As the time from about 12.5 to 50 volt was 30 minutes is it possible to deduce some power from those datas ?
Or what would be the datas to register to get the power of those Flyback spikes ?
regards
laurent
@laurent
Question A-
On the zener...it is not efficient for discharging the 10Kuf capacitor.
The zener to use, would be the voltage you want to see, lets say
12.5volts. You put a resistor in series with the zener so that at
12.5 volts you get your required .007 amps = 7ma. pass-current.
The resister has to be of the appropriate wattage. The problem is
that same resistor at 50.0 volts will be conducting 28ma so at the high
voltage the power wasted is very high. P=E*I. where E= (max V - base V)
where base V is 12.5 volts. A series pass DC regulator will have this same
wasted power. What you need is a switching regulator for efficient
energy conversion.
Question B -
I wondered the same thing. What happens if you turn all of
the charge energy of the 50V 10kuf capacitor into 12.5 volts
at .007amps to run the motor:
o) Well 1C=1amp for 1sec. which means C= .007amps * 1800 seconds
or about 12.5Coulombs charge required by motor to run for 1/2 hour.
o) Also equals 1C=1Farad at 1Volt which means the capacitor
is C = .01F * 50Volts or only .5Coulombs charge stored in the
10Kuf capacitor.
So the capacitor is fairly light duty for running the motor for so long.
This is not suprising given the narrow width of the back EMF pulse
in ratio to the motors total pulse cycle time. You'll need to look
at a supercap in this application to have a shot at success.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@Mscoffman
Thanks a lot for the very comprehensive explanation
Hebeh ! I am far from the goal.!
If i have right understood , if i need 0.007 amps to run the motor for 30 minutes (1800 sec), the stored energy in the cap should be at minimum 12.6 Coulombs.
And as the actual energy after 30 minutesa is only 0.5 coulombs, i am about 25 time under any attempt for a self runner by this way.
Even if i only consider the pure motor current needed that is 0.0014 amps (without the Hall circuitery) i am always 5 time under the goal.
OU is not to be searched in the Flyback this way. Unless there is a mean to get far more of them and or stronger ones. Any idea ?
Can i state that in this case with 0.007 amps motor current by geting back all the fly back spike power i could get back 4 % energy or improve the motor efficiency of 4 % ?
And if yes if we could reduce the Hall circuitery to zero (ideal case), In this case with 0.0014 amps the efficiency could be improved of 20 %?
Just for thinking
Regards
Laurent
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Ok I put the gen motor aside for now. I'm attaching pickup coils. What sort of circuit would be best to capture current through the coils?
mmm just had a thought. What if I used the extra rotor & coils in series with the one below? The mags on the top rotor are opp polarisation to the one below. Could this cause some sort of phase cancellation?
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After banging my head against the wall a bit more, I stepped away from the project for a bit. After thinking it all through again, I came up with an interesting variation that could be of use. I'm thinking of replacing the bridge rectifier with a voltage doubler circuit. In theory, it eliminates 2 diodes so there will be less voltage drop on the energy captured from the induction. Also, it would allow the turn of the rotor to generate less voltage than the run battery, and still charge the run battery anyway.
A quick rundown of how it works. AC current comes from the rotor induction and feeds into the voltage doubler. Each half wave charges it's own cap through only one diode. When the reed switch is tripped, both caps are hooked in series to double the voltage and dump into the run battery. Pretty simple, just wanted to share what I was cookin' up in my head. Haven't tried it at all, just kicking it around. But in theory it may be a way to suck a bit more energy from the turn of the rotor without adding more pickup coils yet.
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After banging my head against the wall a bit more, I stepped away from the project for a bit. After thinking it all through again, I came up with an interesting variation that could be of use. I'm thinking of replacing the bridge rectifier with a voltage doubler circuit. In theory, it eliminates 2 diodes so there will be less voltage drop on the energy captured from the induction. Also, it would allow the turn of the rotor to generate less voltage than the run battery, and still charge the run battery anyway.
A quick rundown of how it works. AC current comes from the rotor induction and feeds into the voltage doubler. Each half wave charges it's own cap through only one diode. When the reed switch is tripped, both caps are hooked in series to double the voltage and dump into the run battery. Pretty simple, just wanted to share what I was cookin' up in my head. Haven't tried it at all, just kicking it around. But in theory it may be a way to suck a bit more energy from the turn of the rotor without adding more pickup coils yet.
I like it CP, except the bit about tuning 3 reed switches. The simpler te better tho I think.
-
....
Effectively the amps went dow almost by the half with 4.7 kohm resistor at the collector . Can i try higher resistor value or will it destroy the transistor ?
Hi Laurent,
Yes you can use a higher value resistor but do not go higher than 10-15 kOhm because switch-on time of the FET may suffer. (You cannot destroy the MOSFET by changing that resistor value to anything.)
My tle 4905 is rated at typical current 3 to 7 max miliamps , do you know better one ?
Will study this, at the moment I am not sure there are much types with lower current consumption.
What is this circuit that Tropes mentionned in the above post, do you know it ?
He asked me last year to give him a schematic on his opto interrupter device for his piston motor and he used different battery voltages for his motor tests (12-24V) and this involved using different resistors in series with the input diode of his interrupter. So that he should not bother on changing that resistor whenever he changed battery voltages he used a small 2V battery just for the input diode and this made his opto interrupter input side independent from the 12-24V side. Here is that circuit by the way:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3318.msg83314#msg83314 (it may need a 15V Zener diode between its Vcc and GND pins and series 3-4 kOhm resistor from its Vcc to the 24V battery input if there is a need for 24V operation, to protect the interrupter from excess supply voltage.
the charge consume a lot of miliamps very shortly (some seconds) until the cap was at 12.5 volts than until the 56 volts charging process DO NOT TAKE ANY MILIAMPS at the motor as if the cap nor bridge was there. I tried to diconnect the cap than the bridge and reconnect it and the amps stay at 10 miliamps steady The charging process uses only the flyback spike.
'The lot of mA' consumption in the first moments of the cap charging is normal, I mentioned a discharged capacitor is a short circuit at the very first moment the charging starts, then this peak current exponentially reduces as the voltage increases across the cap. After the voltage across the cap is about the same as the pulse amplitude that was rectified to charge the cap, there will be no any loading effect of the cap on the pulse. However the moment you take charge away from the cap i.e. you start using the stored voltage of the cap, the loading effect appears on the pulse again, proportionally to the charge consumed from the cap.
rgds, Gyula
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@Jimboot . Re the cicuit using the torch motor to charge a battery thru a diode . use a switch to short out the diode once things get up to speed . this will save energy waste in the diode and improve charge rate .
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I like it CP, except the bit about tuning 3 reed switches. The simpler te better tho I think.
I know exactly what you mean, I've already ruined my 3rd reed switch on my project. Which is the reason I was banging my head against the wall to start. The reed in the picture though would be set to only trip once per revolution or so to dump the caps. Either way, i'm not sure how well it work anyway, just something I was kicking around, as a way to get some extra charge from that rotor motion. May be able to use a zener diode to keep the caps dumping at a specific voltage.
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Hi all
a lot of learning today and so interesting
Thanks Gyula and Cp and Ms and Jb and all contributors
Now i have separated the trigger sensor circuit from the power motor circuit see pix 1 schematic. And so i can look at the real current consumption of the motor. And i can confirm a small 2 miliamps for the motor itself under 12.2 volts battery, and a 3 miliamps for the Hall circuitery undewr 4.1 volts.
And this evening i concentrated the efforts to get the form of the pure motor impulses current. This is made with the scope probe across 1 ohm resistor at the + of battery and the circuit
And the scope shot shows different variation dependly of the Hall sensor position on the magnets . See the 2, 3, 4 pix .
What is BIZARE is that on a single pulse the current goes Sharply up than down and may be negative in a U shape (pix 3 ) and goes up again to a strong positive spike and down is there any interpretation of those scope shots ?
regards
Laurent
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Have tried Ossie but with two coils only. Seems ok, running for long time; maybe with 4 coils it gets better…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZKxu5qTJI
Light (Mopozco),
Your video shows a circuit very similar to the one attached. ;)
- Schpankme
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Hi after looking at your scope shots for some minutes they don't look so bizare any more. ;D
What we see here is induced voltage which seems to be visible only when FET is conducting.
Depending on the hall position you were catching certain part of the sinus wave of induced voltage.
Pulse from the battery is so small that is not even visible. You said it's 2mA and induced sine wave shows approx 70mA of induced AC current.
If you get your motor to max rpm and then quickly replace FET with just wire, you should see on the scope complete sinus wave and not only a part of it like now.
Anyway I think you have something really amazing there. :o
To get full wave on the resistor I would suggest to try putting schottky diode in reverse direction to FET, because its internal diode doesn't seem to work?
Any way great work! ;)
Frenky
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For this type of results we should have smiley like this one: ;D
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q79/ComicsReader/bow.gif
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BTW if I didn't say it specifically.
I think that it should be fairly easy to make you motor to selfrun from a capacitor.
Because with 70mA:2mA current ratio it just can't get any better.
Frenky
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HeHe
thanks Frenky
but now goind to bed and night will connect all the good ideas hopefully
good luck at all
Laurent
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Hi after looking at your scope shots for some minutes they don't look so bizare any more. ;D
What we see here is induced voltage which seems to be visible only when FET is conducting.
Depending on the hall position you were catching certain part of the sinus wave of induced voltage.
Pulse from the battery is so small that is not even visible. You said it's 2mA and induced sine wave shows approx 70mA of induced AC current.
If you get your motor to max rpm and then quickly replace FET with just wire, you should see on the scope complete sinus wave and not only a part of it like now.
Anyway I think you have something really amazing there. :o
To get full wave on the resistor I would suggest to try putting schottky diode in reverse direction to FET, because its internal diode doesn't seem to work?
Any way great work! ;)
Frenky
I'm usually fairly good at reading the scope traces, but this one is a bit over my head I think. It's just not really making sense to me yet. I'm still waiting for my scope to show up so I can get some more hands on to learn it better. But how are you reading the 70ma current coming out from that scope shot? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying I don't understand it. 2ma going in and 70ma coming back out is making think something may be a bit weird with the calculations. I hope I'm wrong, but that's a 35 times increase, or course only if the voltage was exactly the same, but you know what I mean. Even if the voltage coming out was only 1 volt, it's way over power than what is going in. Maybe we should take a couple more close looks here, and make sure it is being read right.
@woopy, is there any chance you have a DPDT switch you can hook up at that fet. If you hook one set of poles to a shorting wire, and other to the fet, you could easily just flip the switch to see the difference in scope traces.
Either way, great work! It's nice to see a group of builders, moving along from hands on experience than just kicking all theories around.
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Thks, Schpankme, yes, as I found out the ossie is a long-runner, but not self-one…
I made tests with 1.5v (easy to watch tendencies) and voltage drop was really low, and with 6v bttry it runs for long time and seems as a self-charger, but eventually voltage gets down…
And your schematic reminding me TROS (transistor oscillator); it’s running from 1.5v bttry too and can light bunch of lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRYgNbLuXs0
May I see your pics of setup you show, wondering what output you got?
thks
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What we see here is induced voltage which seems to be visible only when FET is conducting.
Depending on the hall position you were catching certain part of the sinus wave of induced voltage. Pulse from the battery is so small that is not even visible.
I'm not so sure that is correct. I could be wrong, but I see something different. I see the first two peaks are the induced current, and the 3rd peak is the pulse. Notice the sharp turn off at the end of the 3rd peak. Thats the end of the pulse. So to break it down, it appears to me that you get the positive and negative AC peaks from the induced current, and towards the end of the negative peak it delivers a positive pulse. This makes the negative peak take a steep incline to the positive side until the pulse is turned off.
I THINK that is what I am seeing. But if I am correct, I am not sure if the pulse is the correct polarity to even drive that motor. So I still am a bit confused here. The main thing is that there is definitely 3 peaks for every pass of a coil. One of them has got to be the drive pulse. I can't think of what else it would be.
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Thks, Schpankme, yes, as I found out the ossie is a long-runner, but not self-one…
I made tests with 1.5v (easy to watch tendencies) and voltage drop was really low, and with 6v bttry it runs for long time and seems as a self-charger, but eventually voltage gets down…
And your schematic reminding me TROS (transistor oscillator); it’s running from 1.5v bttry too and can light bunch of lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRYgNbLuXs0
May I see your pics of setup you show, wondering what output you got?
thks
Hey Light.
I'm still unclear what the def of a self runner is but I had one run for 97.5 hours on a D cell at 250-300 RPM before I switched it off. Voltage b4 run 1.32. After run 1.36. The tuning of the reeds was the key for me. With the motor tuned to run at about 1000 RPM on 6V, it will take a load from this motor http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=YM2712 and run at around 700RPM with no discernible change in voltage drop. i.e. the load does not draw more current. The output from the motor on my meters is 2.5V at around 0.2DCmA . I have tried charging the running battery but not a lot of success as I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing. However I have charged a battery of a rechargeable torch using it's motor attached to my rotor. However I have not yet been successful in getting the motor well tuned so there in no voltage drop AND had the additional motor attached. Also my motor is losing a lot of energy in my wobbly coupling.
So I would not say the voltage always drops. Not in my exp anyway. I am a complete noob but I still think the Ossie has real potential. I hope that is helpful
Love to see any vids you have of your rig.
Edit: Not sure if I'm reading the meter right. The scale is a little ambiguous for me. It measured at 66% of the 2.5 scale so I'm assuming that is around 0.16DCmA.
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@Jimboot . Re the cicuit using the torch motor to charge a battery thru a diode . use a switch to short out the diode once things get up to speed . this will save energy waste in the diode and improve charge rate .
Apologies if this is a dumb question but if I short the diode won't the gen motor start drawing power from the charge battery?
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Another insight into woopy's scope shots.
I think that is Hall is triggering only on 1 out of 4 rotor magnets.
During that trigger pulse FET conducts and induced voltage in coil causes current flow through circuit so we can see induced voltage on the 1 ohm resistor.
What I don't completely understand is why, the 0 of the Y axis is not in the middle of that induced voltage.
I could be that pulse into motor is actually 20mA. In this case voltage on resistor would be 20mV and if you add that +20mV to the induced voltage of coil you would get the same voltage shift up on the Y axis.
Have fun ;)
Frenky
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@woopy btw mate I think you are doing sensational work. I don't understand it yet tho :) You're encouraging me to test a Hall sensor tho. Did you ever build Ossies' SS switching circuit? I'll be interested to know your thoughts on Futuristic''s analysis of the activation as well.
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all
have a good but short night because Olympic game.
This morning i redo the test to be sure of the 2 ma current draw.
here 4 pix to explain what i see.
the pix had been made one after another to be sure we speak of the same thing.
pix 1 is the ampmeter 2.1 average ma it varies slightly between 2 an2.2 ma probably due to slight wobling of the rotor or perhaps inequal magnetisation of the magnets. The minus value is only due to inversion of the connection nothing relevant.
pix 2 is the trace at 2.1 ma almost the same as the one from yesterday.
pix 3 to answer Futuristc question i hooked the probe to the coils and they fire all and regular. When it happens that one coil is not fired the trace is a smooth AC trace
pix 4 is my study of the trace (pix 2) above. As Cp think , i think the two first peak are zeroing each other and there is only the green triangle as pulse current . And the calculation (Thanks Gyula) shows that
this correspond roughly to 2.11 ma .
But on pix 4 i would like an explanation of those red and blue peak. Are they gain and lost ? are they braking the rotor etc.. ? What do you think ?
regards
Laurent
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Hi, thank you for clearing some things up.
Just a question. I see from the screenshot that you have two channel scope. Why don't you measure both voltages at the same time?
If you did your scope shot would be like this:
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Thanks Frenky
I am far from being an expert and i need you to improve my knowledge.
I hooked the main probe of canal 2 between the battery positive and the resistor (1 ohm wrapped with red tape to easily recognise it ) and i got a sister image of canal 1(pix 2)
but as soon as i try to connect the second probe on the other side of the resistor there is a short cut the amps jumps away and the motor stops. This is not the first time that something like this happens when i try to use canal 2.
So please where is the right place to connect the second scope probe (clip that i hold in my fingers) ?
Thanks
Laurent
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Hi Guys, Hadn't tried my 12VDC SLA in a while on the old rig.
The battery is steadily charging. How long this last I'm not sure. If it keeps going up it will probably melt my reeds but I'll let her run.
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So please where is the right place to connect the second scope probe (clip that i hold in my fingers) ?
It seems that - of your probes are on the same potential.
Do it like this to fix this issue:
+ of the first probe put between + of battery and the resistor.
- of the first probe put on the other side of resistor
- of the second probe put on the same spot as - of the first probe
+ of the second probe put on the other side of the coil
This way the voltage on the resistor will show up correctly but voltage on the coil will be shown flipped upside down.
But at least we will be able to see it together.
Frenky
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@Jimboot:
The top scope trace is voltage across resistor and the bottom is across coils?
If so it seems you have big current pulses going back to the battery. It's surface it is much bigger that the one of input current. :o
Wow this thread is really amazing.
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@Jimboot , re reply 288 . I assume this circuit consists of only a small motor used a generator , a diode and a battery , which is being charged . If you uncouple the generator from the drive , and short the diode , it will cause the generator to spin as a motor . NOTICE WHICH WAY IT TURNS. Now if you spin it in the same direction as it motors , BUT FASTER , it will charge the battery .In other words , provided generator voltage exceeds battery voltage , current will be driven backwards through the battery causing charging . Hence my previous advice to only short the diode after things get up to speed. The diode acts as a resistor , wasting power .
Re reply 287 . Photo shows meter on 10 volt DC scale . 66% of 10 volts is 6.6 volts . An analogue meter has several scales. Choose a scale that corresponds to the chosen range . So with range switch on 10 volt scale , use the scale on the dial that reads 1 to 10 . Please reply , telling me if you understand all this 100% because it is VITAL. There is no shame in not knowing , only in not asking .
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@ Frenky
back from work and tried your suggestion KUDOS it works fine . effectively my scope probes have the same ground so i have to be very carefull by using canal 1 and 2 together so to not short cut them
And the result is that is no doubt now each firing of coils comes from this first wavy and than spiky pulse.
And of course i am still interested in an explanation !
Just for info those datas are made under battery 12.2 volts Rpm at 473 and indicated average Ma at 2.1 that is an input power of about 24 miliwatts
good luck at all
and long night to me
regards
Laurent
.
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Great! ;)
Can you please try putting one (schottky) diode in your circuit.
It would probably help a lot at telling what is going on.
Frenky :)
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@ Frewnky
i can not open your circuit image with the schottky diode
please send again
good night
laurent
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Hmm. What about now?
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OK got it
good night will test tomorow
thanks
Laurent
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@futuristic That bottom trace is not actually hooked up.
@neptune Sorry I realised I had the setting on volts in the pic. I was actually talking about measuring amps. If you see where the scale is DCmA I came to my conclusion of 0.16 by measuring on the 2.5 scale. I'm assuming 2.5 is actually 2.5 DCmA . So yep I can read the meter just wanted to make sure I was measuring amps right with it. Re the diode, I understand what you are saying now. So I will have more joy trying to charge a second battery. It also explains why I could recharge the depleted torch battery but it seemed to have little effect on the running battery.
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@woopy and Future,
looking good guys, I think we are getting close to figuring out that trace. I think I see where your going with that addition of the shottky, will be interesting to see what comes out of it.
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“Hey Light. I'm still unclear what the def of a self runner is but I had one run for 97.5 hours on a D cell at 250-300 RPM before I switched it offâ€.
- Hi, Jim. I have 144 hrs of running time on single 1.5v bttry, but with voltage drop. On small scale it’s easy to notice even slight difference in setup.
Self-runner; look, you said “Voltage b4 run 1.32. After run 1.36†and “I have tried charging the running battery but not a lot of successâ€.
This’s a point – to charge the running bttry, and then and only then we can say this’s self-charger and self-runner.
Your bttry got charge after disconnection, it’s ability any normal bttry for recovering.
So, our goal (at least mine) to get charge back to RUNNING bttry.
And I like how it’s going in this thread.
“Love to see any vids you have of your rigâ€.
- Thks, yes I'll show more as get any success…or if it goes interesting…
cheers
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“Hey Light. I'm still unclear what the def of a self runner is but I had one run for 97.5 hours on a D cell at 250-300 RPM before I switched it offâ€.
- Hi, Jim. I have 144 hrs of running time on single 1.5v bttry, but with voltage drop. On small scale it’s easy to notice even slight difference in setup.
Self-runner; look, you said “Voltage b4 run 1.32. After run 1.36†and “I have tried charging the running battery but not a lot of successâ€.
This’s a point – to charge the running bttry, and then and only then we can say this’s self-charger and self-runner.
Your bttry got charge after disconnection, it’s ability any normal bttry for recovering.
So, our goal (at least mine) to get charge back to RUNNING bttry.
And I like how it’s going in this thread.
“Love to see any vids you have of your rigâ€.
- Thks, yes I'll show more as get any success…or if it goes interesting…
cheers
That's xlnt feedback. Thanks. That's what I thought a self runner would be. I have pick up coils setup atm but my current rig won't allow separate tuning of them. In your opinion is there potentially more energy in my pick up coils or my motor. Just wondering which may have the bigger payoff. I'm thinking my PU coils. Bigger coils than the motor and more potential energy in my mags. Basically I'm replicating the ossie above the original. So same size coils & mags as the motor.
Thanks again.
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That's xlnt feedback. Thanks. That's what I thought a self runner would be. I have pick up coils setup atm but my current rig won't allow separate tuning of them. In your opinion is there potentially more energy in my pick up coils or my motor. Just wondering which may have the bigger payoff. I'm thinking my PU coils. Bigger coils than the motor and more potential energy in my mags. Basically I'm replicating the ossie above the original. So same size coils & mags as the motor.
Thanks again.
My personal opinion on this matter, would be to use a smaller diameter wire for your pickup coils. The smaller diameter will give you more turns for the same size, and a higher voltage. It will give you less current, but on a pickup coil, you must make sure the voltage is higher than what you are charging or you are getting nowhere. Not to mention diode voltage drops from rectifying it must be overcome also. I'm not saying you need hair thin wire, but I would suggest if you used 20 gauge on your other coils, I would go with 24, 26 or higher for the pickup coils. But that is my opinion. You just want to make sure that even at lower rpms than you are used to seeing so far, that you will still have a high enough voltage to charge from the pickup coils. Remember, adding pickup coils will decrease you rpm's to an extent, but of course you are trading rpms for more electrical energy back out. Keep us informed of what you do, and how it goes.
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@ Futuristic and Cp
tried the schottky between Drain and ground. And no change at all on the trace. I tried also a 1n4007 diode and idem.
I suppose you wanted to check if the irf 540 integrated diode was OK, so i change against a BUZ 11 and no change at all. Than i also disconnected the bridge (which do nothing) and no change at all.
This morning i could get 1.7 ma and the power battery is always at 12. 18 volts and Rpm are at 470.
Tan i mounted a propeller to load the motor, the Rpm decrease to 433 and the current goes up to 4.4 ma. see the trace is changing now. All the trace is above the zero line
So than i decided to brake the rotor with my finger and i stabilised the rotor to get about 13 ma and now the trace goes up. see pix 3
Hope this helps
Laurent
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Hmm that is odd that diode doesn't help getting so more current back.
But weekend is coming and I'm going from my work location to my home location where I have workshop.
I'll be able to test some stuff by myself because it's much easier to figure things out by doing it than by reading about it. :D
Have fun,
Frenky ;)
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I think I've got this figured out pretty well. At least it is starting to make sense. What we appear to be seeing is the bemf caused from the pulse and the inductive wave butting against each other is trimming the peak off of the trace. That trimming of the peak we see in the trace, appears to be showing up in the other trace shot. It's disappearing from one, and reappearing in the other. This could be a little nugget of info we need to determine if we are capturing any extra energy from the BEMF. I see the same thing in woopy's new traces he just posted. The peak that disappears from one, shows up in the middle of the other. This at least indicates that the peak of the pulse that disappears, does not leave the circuit, it just get's redirected. Now, this also could be showing up this way because of how the probes are hooked to the circuit. I'm thinking Ossie and JLNaudin had the probes hooked to a slightly different place in the circuit. This trace could possibly look identical to theirs if probes were hooked different.
Woopy, could you please double check where your probes are hooked up, and let us know exactly where in the circuit they are for sure. Then we can try and compare with what we are seeing in JLNaudins and Ossies to see if we are indeed seeing something different, or just seeing the same thing in a different way.
Take a look, and let me know what you think.
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Hi Captain
I hooked the probes as Futuristic proposed some post ago,
1- Canal 1 with main probe between battery plus and 1 ohm resistor secondary probe (clip) right after the resistor . So to measure the current image.
2- Canal 2 with main probe on the ground (minus ) of the coil and secondary probe (clip) on the coil plus (positive) . Which give an inverted picture of the voltage. This is due to the fact that my scope as the same ground on both canal so i can not plug two minus probe together because shortcuting (thanks Frenky ).
But now something very interesting for the nihgt
I tried to slide out one coil . I mean the coil was always connected to the circuit in serie but simply no more activ (no more between the magnet sandwitch).
And i espected thad the motor would slow down 1/4 because a lack of this power coil .
Nope the motor speed up , the torque seems to go up an the current goes up to.
Than i slided away a second and opposite coil and again the current goes up as the Rpm and torque
Than i slided away the third coil and the current goes up and the rpm up slightly.???
Than i disconnected 2 coil from the circuit and i got a very good torque for a good current
will try to document this better this weekend
Ossies motor surprise
Good night at all
Laurent
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@ woopy,
Thinking about your results, and looking over your circuit again, makes me wonder a couple things. There does not appear to be any recovery going on here. The coils are only hooked up to the circuit when the mosfet is turned on. Then when it is turned off, the field is pretty much forced to collapse into the surrounding air instead of redirecting to the battery or anything. Is there some reasoning behind wanting to do it this way? As far as I can tell from your circuit, I see no generative effect at all there. The coils are not even hooked to the circuit because of the open mosfet the entire time, except for the brief time you are pulsing it. It's kind of like you are running a pulse motor with the same theories of a conventional motor. I am not sure what you are looking to do here, are you simply after the most possible torque? If so there are some things that could be tried to do that, including adding a small cap across the coils and try to tune it to resonate. If that is not what you are wanting to do, then maybe it's time to start adding some kind of recovery circuit and pull that lagging magnetic field out of those coils when you don't need it hanging around and poke into some batteries or something. It really does help a motor run much smoother when you recover it. I'm not trying to be negative, just calling it as I see it. Maybe it's just a test circuit, and you plan on adding the recovery anyway, and you just haven't got that fare. I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there, maybe something will help.
As far as it speeding up when you remove coils, it makes sense with your setup. As I see it, your BEMF that is limiting your current flow is cutting down more and more with each coil removed. Simply cutting down the BEMF by 25% by removing one coil, will allow more current to flow. More current flowing will drive the motor harder and show more torque. You must remember, you are now sending more current into that motor. You SHOULD be getting higher rpms and more torque. What your looking for is efficiency I believe. Having the extra coils gets you slightly more torque and speed for LESS current draw. It just depends on what you want your motor doing. Be more efficient, or run at break neck speeds and high torque! A good combination of both would be ideal. At least that is my theory right now.
Also, from looking so closely at your scope shots. It almost looks like your actually feeding energy backwards through that mosfet, and INTO your trigger circuit. That's just wierd... ???
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Hi Captain
Of course i am trying to get something back from the coils. But not so easy. And of course if i can maitain the torque high it is better. So many things is new for me in this concept, that i try every thing. Some time confusing sorry.
The last one is the bridge rectifier between the coils, and i added a diode between the minus of the coil and the bridge. See shematic
And the result is very interesting as i can get very strong and large positive flyback spikes. see pix. This way i could charge my big cap at the plus and minus of the bridge much better than without the extra diode.
Will test more tomorrow.
Please your comments
regards
laurent
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I've been working hard though the day and results are here. ;)
Video will come tomorrow because it's currently uploading to YT and I'm going to bed (almost 1AM here).
I will also do scope shots tomorrow...
So here is gallery ;D
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Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtuQvsBxGDA
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@futuristic nice work. Looking forward to your numbers.
Ok I'm moving away fom the pickup coils & going back to generator attached to rotor.
I want to be able to seperate out one AA of my 5XAA pack at a time to charge & when it has charged it gets switched back into the pack & the next one gets taken out & charged and so on. Not sure how I'm going to achieve this :)
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Hi, here are scope shots. For unknown reason reed is firing also between magnets and not only on the magnet.
Next version will be with optocoupler CNY 37.
Scope shots (one on the resistor is flipped because I had probes connected wrong way)
Frenky
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Ok gen motor is at 0.75volts 60mA. Still trying to work out the mathematics on what the Ossiemotor is actually using. It's running 2Xaa & 1Xaaa @ 3.65volt &880RPM.
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Hey Jim
Well once you are at this point that it is this efficient, working on the generator portion is next. That where to get the Extree. Also the battery, I put a pic of a small lead acid that takes less to charge than most. As in it receives a charge more like a capacitor than other batteries.
Those mags are good size. I would try some gen coils in between the big coils. If you run them to a bridge rect. during that time in rotation the motor is not taking from the battery, so it is a good time to just send it straight to the battery. And the pickup gen coils may get some from the motor coils just being in proximity. Extree. =]
Mags
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Hi frenky
nice work
As you use the double flat coils in paralell as per Garry Stanley . Can you make some test and shortcut the coils in freewheeling to see if they brake the rotor (Lenz law)
Regards and good luck
Laurent
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Hi. I have already tested that by mistake. ;D
At first run I wired coil pairs wrong and there was big slowdown of rotor.
After that I re-soldered the wires of coils correctly and now rotor spins freely.
I have now also made version with optocoupler but there was nothing interesting going on.
Will still upload video and scope shots...
Frenky ;)
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As you can see in this version with optocoupler there is almost no negative current flow and that is bad. Not sure why though...
opti1-coil.gif shows voltage across 1 coil
opti1-res.gif shows voltage across 1 ohm resistor
Txt files are raw scope data.
Frenky
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Hi frenky
nice work
As you use the double flat coils in paralell as per Garry Stanley . Can you make some test and shortcut the coils in freewheeling to see if they brake the rotor (Lenz law)
Regards and good luck
Laurent
Hi Laurent, and All,
Years ago Ron already made such tests you just suggested to Frenky, see this link here: http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~norman/pugh.html
Ron used the same flat coils Garry Stanley used too and now Frenky has shown. (Such coils came out from old 5 1/4" floppy drives, one such flat air core coil has about 1.1mH inductance and 4 Ohm DC resistance.)
Please read carefully all the tests. It turns out that a parallel connected coil pair (with the + of one coil end tied to the - of the other coil and vice versa) if loaded, produces Lenz effect. However Garry Stanley DID NOT use these coils pairs (he had 12 coil pairs and 12 facing magnet pairs) for GENERATING, he used them as motor coils, to attract in the magnet pairs till TDC then he switched off the coils by a bipolar power transistor. This is where the misunderstanding was based: everybody expected from these coil pairs to get induced energy too. Garry did not design a generator with his parallel coil pair idea but a motor.
Garry did answer the question of how he thought to use these coil pairs for generating: just after the magnets pass TDC, the paralleld coils should be opened (say by a reed switch or whatever that was closed on approach till TDC) and this way the individual and open coils could feed capacitors via diodes from the changing flux they sense from TDC and outwards from the leaving magnet pairs. This needs experimentation of course, I am not aware of any such test results from any body.
So there is no Lenz effect after you switch the coil pairs off at TDC and you do not load the coil pairs with anything. And before TDC, as you switch the coil pairs on to attract the magnet pairs on the rotor, there is a normal permanent magnet <-> air cored electromagnet interaction: the fixed coil pairs attract the rotor magnet pairs, the coil pairs have a closed circuit via the switch and the inner resistance of the battery, (under this coil pair ON time the situation is the same as like Ron test shows in Picture 7) hence there surely be Lenz effect in the attract mode but it is 'counteracted' or 'overwhelmed' by the battery energy for the whole attract time.
Now it would be too easy to abandon tests with such parallel coil pairs used in this setup, what would be good is to try opening indeed a coil pair just after TDC and see how much 'juice' could be collected from any one coil individually and also see how such load on the opened pair may affect the rotor moving smoothly away.
If I recall correctly, Garry wrote he measured about 9V induced AC voltage coming from one flat coil, unloaded, measured continuosly, not just after TDC, at the same rpm while he operated a test motor on a 12V battery. He did not have scope but a multimeter only.
rgds, Gyula
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Just some calculations of the version v1 with reed switches that performed better.
As you can see it seems that all (and more) current that goes into motor comes back and also the motor is doing work by working against friction.
And I think I can do better. ;D
Frenky
P.S.
Because forum doesn't allow .xlsx files excel is here:
http://file.si/pfiles/10422/Dso-data.xlsx
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Arrhhh that was the trace when I had probe connected wrong way so it should be flipped.
Actual ratio is then 97,46%. Well not bad anyway...
Frenky
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Video of motor with optocoupler CNY 37:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAPKqkrDx14
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Hi frenky and Gyula and all
i have reread all what is at disposal about the 2 thin coils (from Garry Stanley) and is seems that there is anyway Lenz law but weak, (i would say about 1/2 Lenz).
That is the rotor is attracted with CEMF untill TDC and than it is liberated witout CEMF. So for each pulse there is half the CEMF (1/2 Lenz) is it somehow correct ?
So i made a test today See pix
I tried to get attraction and repulsion of the rotor on a single pulse. And i placed the magnets to be slighty wider than the diameter coil and the sandwitch magnets are inverted (one for attraction and one for repulsion) There is now 4 magnets acting together. And it works very well. I have to hold the coil with my hand or it slide away at start.
So in my previous config (with only 1 active coil and sandwith rotor with each 4 magnets at 90 degrees) i got 4 pulses per RPM per coil and 4 time the half CEMF = 2 full CEMF (is it correct ?) per coil.
And now i get 2 pulses per RPM and also 4 half CEMF, so this config ought to be much better efficiency as it is not the double torque per pulse but perhaps 1.5 more I don't know.
I think this config will not work correctly with reed switch. The hall sensor swithes only on south pole so it does not pulse when the second magnet passes.
What do you think ?
Regards
Laurent
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I have 3 electric bikes. 1 is a Wavecrest Tidalforce. I enclosed a picture of the motor opened. I have not opened my motor but I have replaced the batteries in the front wheel hub.
Imagine working with one of these babies already made. If you zoom in you can see the curved magnets on the drum and the coils, though you cannot see from this side of the motor, are pared as 2's with the core shared on the backside. So as 2 coils fire the pair combined are very strong. This motor will do 1000w up to a regulated 30mph, not street legal, and the same motor is used in the 749w version and regulated to 20 mph but has some go up to 20 and quiet. The difference is software.
But I was thinking it would make an excellent platform to work with and there may be more eff to get out of it capturing bemf, as I dont think this does. Unless that force is used to help phase reversal. From what I know when the throttle is on, any speed, the coils are on always, just they are pwm pulsed to adjust torque. And it is opticaly timed, on the T shaped board there are 7 sensors, must be 1 for speed? Dunno that much but I have found all I can. the black and white coding disk is in the cover that is not shown here. Each the thickness of 1 core.
I just though I would share that. It can produce ideas. I would like to come across a broken one to just have the core elements, but these bikes are collectible and rare. Hard find. But there are many good chinese motors like on my Trek bike that are cheap enough to futz with.
Mags
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Hi Laurent,
...
That is the rotor is attracted with CEMF untill TDC and than it is liberated witout CEMF. So for each pulse there is half the CEMF (1/2 Lenz) is it somehow correct ?
I do not know whether half Lenz effect exists but it must be true that the flux from the coming magnet pair surely penetrates into the stator coil and because this coil has a closed electric circuit (via the switch and the battery), motional induction must also happen that works against the attract flux, this sounds Lenz.
So i made a test today See pix
I tried to get attraction and repulsion of the rotor on a single pulse. And i placed the magnets to be slighty wider than the diameter coil and the sandwitch magnets are inverted (one for attraction and one for repulsion) There is now 4 magnets acting together. And it works very well. I have to hold the coil with my hand or it slide away at start.
So in my previous config (with only 1 active coil and sandwith rotor with each 4 magnets at 90 degrees) i got 4 pulses per RPM per coil and 4 time the half CEMF = 2 full CEMF (is it correct ?) per coil.
And now i get 2 pulses per RPM and also 4 half CEMF, so this config ought to be much better efficiency as it is not the double torque per pulse but perhaps 1.5 more I don't know.
I think this config will not work correctly with reed switch. The hall sensor swithes only on south pole so it does not pulse when the second magnet passes.
Very good idea to use a second rotor magnet pair near to the first one and with opposite poles wrt the first one, so that with one pulse at the correct time, you get attraction and repulsion at the same time.
Let's consider this link where member DMMPOWER states that electromagnets facing in repulse mode do not have back emf (he surely means cemf that comes about the motional induction) because the flux lines of one coil cannot enter the other coil due to the repel mode: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5890.0
If this is true, it probably true for an electromagnet-permanent magnet interaction when they are also in repel mode: flux lines from the permanent magnets would not penetrate into the coil that is excited from the battery to also create a like pole.
This would mean that for the repel coil-second magnet interaction for your case here you would not have to consider any cemf due to Lenz, right? I hope this is so, :) Then this setup you devised should be even better than just one attract or just one repel magnet pair. And considering Garry used 12 magnet pairs in attract mode to his coil pairs, just imagine the torque gained in your present attract-repel setup with ,say, 16 magnets, 8 for attract and 8 for repel, just quadruple your present 4 magnet case.
Thanks,
Gyula
EDIT: What is the distance between the facing magnets now and what is the coil's hight, I wonder. Also the coil data like DC res, maybe L?
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Hi Gyula
Thanks for info and encouraging and it is a pleasure to go on this adventure in the calm and serenity of this thread
and right now i have remount my original 14 Ohms coils on the sandwitch motor with 2 inverted pole coils so i have comparison with the same magnet and the same coils congfig as in the Ossiesa basic sandwitch test ( sorry for the new commers it is something complicated and please ask for question if necessary) . And of course as i had only 8 of those magnets i could only build a two opposite coils config.
and the result
so the 2 coil are connected in series and i can run the motor with only 0,5 ma ( half a miliamp) at 190 RPM under 3.9 volts.!
really interesting
regards
Laurent
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hi Magluvin
thanks very much for your info
very nice motor
i am a fun of electric motor from very very small for indoor RC plane and helicopter to really mighty ones as the ones i uses on my electric power Ultralght plane ( here a Geiger Motor 13 kw max power ) flying machines.
regards
Laurent
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Hi all
Some more results
Yesterday at 23h 30 i charged my supercap at 4.5 volts and connected it to the 2 coils in serie motor (no battery at all) cap at 4,5 volts RPM at 195 and average current at 0.5 miliamps
And this morning after 10 hours the motor still spins at RPM 100 the supercap is at 2.3 volts and the amps across 1 ohm resistor are almost unmeasurable (see pix 1)
For info the 2 coils in serie have 28 ohm resistance and 19.7 mh inductance
pix 2 and 3 shows position and polarity of the magnets
more and more interesting
regards
Laurent
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@Laurent: Looking great! ;)
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Hi Magluvin,
Very interesting info on the electric bike, thanks. Recalls a so-called Sumo motor that also has a combination of permanent and electro magnets, here is some info on it, maybe you have heard about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUXhJZZRUIg and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs4GXH5Q3Rk
The electric motor principle is covered in some Jap and US patents, here is one:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20020409&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=6369479B1&KC=B1
Also some info on the Genesis Corp website, just click on the green arrows one by one: http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/index2.html
rgds, Gyula
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Very cool Gyula
This one is bad to the bone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_41btVawMc
This is the way all cars and bikes will be soon.
Mags
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Woopy
Awesome ultra lite. Everything is going electric. Talkin RC, I saw a 6kw brushless turbine, it can produce almost a bar of preasure, it could be used as a turbo charger in a car. I saw an electric turbo a few years back that had 3 starter motors in parallel. But the rc turbine is sick. I had an rc heli years ago.
Mags
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it's easy to do yourself... motorcycle tires are much safer/durable than bike tires @ 40+ mph. having done it, i agree with magluvin, 40mph on a pedal bike is damn scary.
little derbi's, ninja 250's and little aprilia's are perfect candidates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrFPMLAfs3s
edit: yes that motor you posted mags is sick. would love to have one.
woopy, that is one sweet ultralight, i am envious...
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I would love to design and build a motorcycle wheel from a blank. The motor in the vid of 2 posts up, that motor is sick. Even has the super slider magneto unit. =]
Mags
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Hehe Mag
i am also thinking of a scaling up of this research on Ossie motor.
Hello ! Ossie do you still follow this thread ? Have you some results on your transistor switching shematic ?
Thanks to all contributors
Regards
Laurent
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Ooups i forgot for interested people
Here some pix of not only rolling possibility in electric motion
yes we can really and interestingly fly with E-power and i am looking every thing that can improve this really fantastic and ecological way to be airborne
good luck at all and Bonne chance to approach your goal
Laurent
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Ooups i forgot for interested people
Here some pix of not only rolling possibility in electric motion
yes we can really and interestingly fly with E-power and i am looking every thing that can improve this really fantastic and ecological way to be airborne
good luck at all and Bonne chance to approach your goal
Laurent
Extremely cool Woopy!
Not sure about those transmission lines tho!
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Woop That is sweet. What is the flight time? It looks to have a similar motor as the bike.
Mags
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Interesting, the Ozzie Motor can fly an Ultralight and power a Motorcycle. Way to go Ossie!
- Schpankme
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@Schpankme
Not yet
The ultralight uses a brushless motor but with iron core coils (normal electric motor with full Lenz law application). So it is not an Ossie air core coil.
The power of this motor is at max 13 KW and the current (from a 56 volts with 40 AH lipo battery ) can go up to 230 amps. And (for Mags) i can fly about 15 minutes
But the goal is , as this motor is rated at a very good 90 % efficiency , can we do much better with the Ossie's config ?
And of course is it a mean with the Ossie's config or other mean (Orbo or else) to break the 100 % efficiency "unbreakable" barrier. Hooouuiillee i said something bizare here !
Have a good day
Laurent
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OK ladies and gentlemen back to work
can everybody explain this?
I made 3 tests with the repulsion -attraction 1 pulse config (see pix )
1 with 2 coils in serie ands i (get as reported ealier) about 0.5 to 0.6 miliamps for a 185 rpm.
2 when i open 1 coil and connect the second one directly to the circuit , That is to say that there is only one working coil , i get about 2.3 miliamps for 354 Rpm almost 4 time more current for only the double of rpm ?
3 when than i connect coils one and two directly in parallel to the circuit , that is to say 2 separately working coils, i get 4.3 miliamps curent and the rpm does not increase ( the torque seems to be stronger but difficult to measure with my fingers)
thanks for replying
Laurent
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Woops
Its the same reason the Ossie motor coils are all in series to lower the load and more efficient. And the load on the resistor, if you have one or two, and all else with the battery is more in parallel so that affects the efficiency.
Man i been up since yesterday winding coils and testing. Well I aint done yet Jonny! Im a world champion.
Magchamp
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Hey all
I have a question maybe some here know about. I was using a diode in series with my reed to prevent bemf from getting back across the reed, because in certain situations while capturing bemf I would see sparking when it should have gone to the capture circuit, but apparently not all of it. Now the bemf was about 260v to a cap without a load.
The series diode is a fast switcher 400v prv. So from what I know this far into this game, that 260v should not be able to cross the diode in reverse. Is it peak bemf voltages that I am not seeing?
Im not working on that a the moment, but in my daze from being a champ winder all night, I was just thinking about that and why.
Thanks
Mags
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@Laurent
I am uncertain in explaining your findings, I can tell generalities like current is linearly proportional with the number of fluxlines in an air core coil, and the stored magnetic energy in a coil depends on the current of the second power (L*I^2/2). I know this does not explain readily your third point, sorry.
@Magluvin
You mean you used a second diode in series with the reed and the first diode captured the flyback pulse as usual? Sorry I did not get it.
Gyula
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@ Gyula
thanks for your answer. I will try this weekend to store more info . Perhaps we can be more aware of what happens with more experiments i hope
@ Mags
Hi Magchamp thanks for your answer and now after one night winding what about your fingers ? for myself i use silk gloves ( please be smart hi hi!) to avoid finger burnings when i wound my coils with my windingmill. so easy and fast.
that's why i don't like toroidal winding
and another interesting week end in perspective
regards
Laurent
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Hi all
For my weekend thinking
What is the best arrangement of coils and magnet.?
I will go from the fact that the best impulse station is as it is described on the attached picture.
So what is best a round coil with round magnets or rectangular coil and magnets to get a longer torque to width ratio?
Another thing it seems to be more powerfull when i hook a soft steel plate to connect the magnets what do you thgink ?
thanks for reply
good night at all
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
I think Tesla Coil for electromagnets patent may be a good answer for you first question. It includes a huge benefit: if one could build such coils with a resonant frequency near to the one that comes from the rotor RPM then the input current to these coils would not find any inductive impedance, only the copper wire resistance would limit the current. (By winding the two parallel wire the way Tesla drew and connecting the ends as he showed, there will be a resonance circuit developed from the coils and the distributed capacitcnce created by the closeness of the two wires, and behaving as a series resonant circuit. Problem is that for normal RPMs like a few thousand, the resonant frequency is around some ten Hertz, it seems impossible to find a high dielectric material which would insure high enough capacitance for the limited number of coil turns to reach the low resonant frequency.
But I vote for flat and thin round coils anyway. Thickness seems important because a thin coil demands for a small airgap between the facing magnets, and this involves higher flux density hence higher torque. And I also think that using many such small flat coils as stators, distributed evenly around the rotor circumference, would enhance torque manyfold because it would involve many magnets hence much more flux to deal with.
Your second question connects to also the question of how flux density could be increased, using soft iron back plates is a good solution for this effect. (Door magnets utilize such back plates to increase their attract force.)
rgds, Gyula
PS here is link: http://www.tfcbooks.com/patents/512340.htm to Tesla electromagnet coil if someone wants to read it.
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@Gyulasun . re Tesla coils .Why not lower the resonant frequency by adding capacitance in the form of a capacitor?
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Hi Neptune,
Yes, I have thought of that already, thanks for bringing it up and it may work in the same way as if it were the distributed capacitance. It surely needs testing, I have not built such flat coils that thickness is constituted by the wire diameter only.
I have attached a drawing how the addition of a normal capacitor ought to be connected to get the same effect.
To get close to the needed resonant frequency, say your motor's RPM is 1200 then you divide it by 60 to get it in 1/seconds i.e. in Hertz. (1200/60=20 Hertz)
This is a very low audio frequency and if you can make ,say, a 1mH bifilar flat coil as Tesla shown, it would need a 63325uF non electrolytic capacitor. (I used this link: http://www.whatcircuits.com/lc-resonance-frequency-calculator/ )
I chose 1mH because for flat coils like these with a single wire thickness you cannot make much higher inductance coil, rather only less.
See this link: http://deepfriedneon.com/tesla_frame6.html
If I choose DI=3mm N=60 W=0.1mm S=0.1mm (this turn spacing will come from the second 0.1mm parallel wire), then the inductance comes as 41.5uH, obviously for a non bifilar case, and when you connect the second wire in series as shown by Tesla, the inductance roughly becomes 3.7-4 times as many i.e. 3.7*41.5=153uH And for this coil the outer diameter already comes out as 27mm!
For such a low inductance the resonant capacitor for 20Hz is 413,894uF!
A rather difficult value in practice.
Of course to test this all, you may start out with conventional bifilar coils wound on normal bobbins because that way you can really get bifilar coils (connected the two parallel wires in series as Tesla showed) several tens of mH inductance hence the capacitor value gets more practical, though still in 1000-2000uF range.
When you have wound a bifilar coil and connected the ends as Tesla showed, then you may use an inductance meter to get the resultant inductance between the two ends indicated in the patent drawing. Then you can figure out the needed capacitance to come near to resonance.
rgds, Gyula
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@ Gyula
thanks a lot for the very interesting link and infos
So this afternoon i wounded a Tesla coil. It is not flat but as i understood from the Tesla patent it does not need to be flat. He draws it flat for better comprehension for the patent. Is it correct?
So i made an almost flat coil (to get as you proposed the most flux ) and wounded it with 50 turns bifilar 0.3 mm copper and connected it a la Tesla.
the resistance is 1.7 Ohm and the inductance is 0.28 mh.
I enclose some picture of the set up and scope traces the last one is the pure flyback trace after the schottky rectifier plus one shottky diode to get total separation from battery (see my shematic some post ago)
And the result is with only one coil the motor spins at about 900 rpm for 25 ma on my old battery which deliver now 3.9 volts
Have you a proposition for a capacitor value to test with those values ? and is it possible to get resonnance or what would be the cset up to get it ?
good luck at all and by the way where are you in your progress Ossie ,JB ,CP ,Frenky and all ??
regards
Laurent
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Hi.
I'm watching your progress with great interest. ;)
Sadly I won't be able to make any experiments for about a month because I have bought an old apartment and I will be working on renovating it so I can start living there as soon as possible. But after that I will be able to work on experiments on daily basics. :)
Bye,
Frenky
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Hi Frenky
good luck in renovation
I made the same 3 years ago and it took me most of my 200 % energy.
But than what a pleasure to live in your BABY.
we live only 0ne time so it has to be good
Laurent
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Yeah it will be great when it will be done. I already know which USB scope, function generator and LRC meter I'll buy for my "home lab". :D
But that will be probably in somewhere in the year 2013 because I will be so broke after renovation. ;D
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Hi Laurent,
....
So this afternoon i wounded a Tesla coil. It is not flat but as i understood from the Tesla patent it does not need to be flat. He draws it flat for better comprehension for the patent. Is it correct?
Well, I think it is flat, there are more people taking it flat than not... Nevertheless, the flat coil that has only a thickness or actually a length of just the wire diameter, has interesting flux fields, see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O12UVMFGe2U If you consider a thicker coil wrt the flat one, the higher the thickness i.e. the length of such air cored coils the more distance the flux has to go in air which is the worst flux conductor. In case of a flat coil there is no any lenght in air in that sense, just the copper wire diameter.
This guy also tested several such flat coils for finding their resonance frequency, see here his Part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuevO1IhElg
Have you a proposition for a capacitor value to test with those values ? and is it possible to get resonnance or what would be the cset up to get it?
Your 900 RPM gives 15Hz, then the needed capacitor for resonance is about 402068uF, (almost half a Farad) 0.4F. A supercap is not the best here, not only because it is polaryzed but it has only 2.5V or 5V voltage rating, way too low value. Maybe connecting several 5V rated such caps in series, like 5 pieces of 2.2F/5V types, to see what happens at near the resonance to the pulses. Maybe the 25V (5*5V) voltage rating is still low at resonance I do not know.
Sorry that you seem left alone in hand on tests, I can be of mainly theoritical help for you or maybe recall my own tests from the past if appropiate, because circumstances changed at my workplace.
rgds, Gyula
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Laurent, see what member BEP says on flat coil:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6640.msg158978#msg158978
"The real beauty of this type of coil is it tells Lenz to blow. The induced field is perpendicular to the approaching field instead of opposing.
Bang one of these with a sharp spike and there is a 'clapping' in the center like no other. It is like stomping on a ripe banana. Everything squirts out the axis."
EDIT: and here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6640.msg158832#msg158832
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Hi Gyula
as expected this was an interesting weekend
Thanks to you i could try a lot of things
And especially the pancake coil. With a really exploding result as i tried to decrease the the gap to better fit the thin pancake and sunddenly the powerfull magnet attract together and the sandwitch (much too weak) collapsed and the rotor simply broke in several parts and died there.
So i decided to go on with a weaker rotor and ferromagnetic junction between the magnets
But i can not yet evaluate the results for the pancake coil . It works but not so good and draws a lot of miliamps, and the fet get warm , but not the coil?
Than i made some test with different Pancake coils to verify the BEP theory of radial flux , but no success perhaps my coils are too crude, but my compass did not shows any radial polarity as Bep seems to get
And finally i reinstalled my coil from yesterday with tesla connection and it fits very precisely the new rotor and it is very powerfull. Will make further test
ok thats all for today
regards
Laurent
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Hi Laurent,
Sorry to hear your rotor's broken down, you ought to have used nonmagnetic spacers between the sandwich plates to counter the tremendous attract forces. You may still use such spacers later.
The higher current draw with your pancakes comes from the fact that so far you have used multiturn coils with 8-10 Ohm copper resistances and maybe higher and in series but these pancakes has (by sight) much less than 1 Ohm, this is the reason. Try to make pancakes with more turns if you have the time and patience. The MOSFET switch dissipates much more power now due to the lack of coil resistances: battery voltage is divided by the ratio of resistors, the resistors being the drain-source ON resistance and the coil copper wires. So far your coils took much higher part of the battery voltage, now this is true for the FET. You may consider reducing battery voltage too.
Here is another link on the polarity tests of pancakes:
http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/rmfd_experiment.htm
Remember that you have a much less diameter pancake than the video and other links show and thus it is more difficult to probe flux fields. A small flux probe made form a dedicated Hall sensor may show more precisely the fields. (Not Hall switch what you use now but Hall sensor that gives out a proportionally changing DC voltage as the flux changes.)
Thanks for your infos.
rgds, Gyula
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Woopy
I have to say that those coils are just too little wire and too low of a resistance. make your coil thick. I am going to post a vid and you decide. If you do as I say you will have some big coils in there in a heartbeat. The back emf off of them will be enough to run a whole other motor very well without any more draw from the original battery, Or just send the bemf back to the batt as always.
But those skimpy coils aint gunna do it. My coils in this vid are in parallel and measure .45ohm tot. But you can do series if you like, try it both ways.
you may have to make the rotor more sturdy as you will see. =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7PR8JEVp7A
mags
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Also , the 5 ohm 5w resistor is a load that Im running the back emf into from the coils. this was a continuation of vids before it that explained that. =]
Mags
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Hey Woop, Luvyaworkmate. Been off the grid the last 3 days doing this. Trying to catch up on everyone's work. Sitting back at my bench now.
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Hi all
Made some mosfet try with different pull up resistors and of course different results seems that the Buz 11 is more easy to use , than the IRF 450.
But now i have to decide for a scaling up and probably i will make a mix with very thin but 3 or 4 layers heavy copper wire (1 mm ) so i can draw much current and very thin air gap with more coils probaly by pairs in serie.
I mean i plan to make at first 4 separated power circuits for 4 pairs of coils in serie. So i can increase or decrease the power of the motor by simply adding more or less circuit in work. and no need of complex electronic . so you have a 4 gears. And as i have noticed that those pulse motor do not accelerate as crazy i think a 4 gears motor could be a basis for a usefull and very simple set up. ?
>So a concept with big diameter slow rotating sandwitch with Attraction simultaneous with repulsion pulsed rotor seems to be a good candidate.
And of course if we can get or store some flyback energy, it will be great and better and if perhaps the silmultaneous attraction and repulsion pulse could diminish the Lenz effect , perhaps ?
But without testing no results so lets go
good luck at all and thanks for bringing your feedback
by the way Jb, be carefull of flybackgreatwhitesharksenergy hehe !
laurent
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Woopy
I have to say that those coils are just too little wire and too low of a resistance. make your coil thick. I am going to post a vid and you decide. If you do as I say you will have some big coils in there in a heartbeat. The back emf off of them will be enough to run a whole other motor very well without any more draw from the original battery, Or just send the bemf back to the batt as always.
But those skimpy coils aint gunna do it. My coils in this vid are in parallel and measure .45ohm tot. But you can do series if you like, try it both ways.
you may have to make the rotor more sturdy as you will see. =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7PR8JEVp7A
mags
Mags that is sick! Love that sound. Catching up with all your posts now to replicate :)
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Thanks Jim
The rotor is made from 1/2 in pvc board. Light, rigid and easy to work with. The bearing is from a HD. This rotor has been many motors. It started of as a Whipmag version I called the Robowhip. I use the PVC for everything that does not need to be heavy. Comes in 1/8 to a couple in. thick in 4x8 sheet or to a cut length sold by the foot.
Depending on where you are, price is a different thing. Here it is a bit less than plexi. But its lighter and easier to work with. Comes in black and gray also. Bonds with resin and superglue. And with super glue, the bond is stronger than the material itself. I buy superglue in 2oz bottles from the hobby shop. Sanding is a breeze and no floating dust. its one of my favorite materials. I even make subwoofer enclosures with it for cars. With inner support frame to stop large area flex. Its more expensive than wood, but better tech advantages.
At the time of the vid you liked, I was only concerned with how much rotor action I could get from THIS set of batteries. I started in the out beginning with tick tick tick at 120 rpms. but what is that. All in all we need to figure out how to get powerful motors more efficient, not reinvent huge clock mechanisms. Sound good? =]
Look at some brushless motor designs on the internet. I suddenly feel small. These guys are already approaching 100% eff especially no load. That is our starting point. We are working with no loads. It tells us nothing. It gives us nothing. One thing we have to remember. In order to see or get a gain of 1 type of energy, it must be converted to another form and reconverted back to the original form. Our advantages need to take place in the conversions.
In these awesome setups you all have going, speed will be of the essence. Speed is power. Throw a pebble at me and i will laugh, shoot a bullet at at me and I will die. How much energy would be spent throwing the pebble all your might as compared to the fizzle in the shell pushing the bullet? Well to extract the first half of that data would be a myth busters project, and I cant say they wouldnt have trouble with that. Ive seen where they couldt have done better. We all have. Here is the problem, using the human body to throw the pebble as fast as we can, energy needs to be spent getting the body to move also. You can work on the best, most eff way to move the body in a way to get the pebble to go as fast as you can. O now when we see the demonstration of it, by 5 different examples, how much energy total can you imagine being expelled into that throw, or flick, as a whole. Flick is something to think about here in the comparison and would hold substance in the analogy.. Some just may be able to flick the pebble faster than any throw. Maybe. Now the flick is getting closer to being the gun shot than the throw. I said closer, not close. =]
So tighten these things up and get some speed going, then work on how to keep it or even make it faster, by using less power. Using Mosfets is ok. Just because they cannot dump as much current as a reed, well this just means you are using less input. No losses there, its less resistance than the resistor you put in there isnt it? But the reeds do provide impact, impulses.
Imagine if You had 10 different sets of coils to try. from small to big, deep and wide, 1 set is going to shine. Imagine 30 sets. 1 will shine. Results from 1 random choice of base components will hold you at that level of the game.
Its expensive to experiment ideally.
But these are just my thoughts and Im always glad to help and share. That is what this place is all about.
Think gun shot, Think dc impulse. My bullets are small, but I have 16 of them. Machine gun. =]
Mags
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Hey Jim and all
In that high speed vid above, the voltage you see on the meter is the voltage across the 5 ohm 5w resistor while it is consuming Back EMF only. This is 2.5w of power being consumed by the resistor CONTINUOUSLY. While the rotor is being pulsed. Not continuously. If I pull the resistor out of the circuit, my battery input will stay the same, so this is energy that is normally wasted and ignored. you guys are using it in sending it back to the battery and that is fine, Im jus explaining a portion of the vid that may not be clear while watching it because it was a continuation from previous vids at the time.
Mag
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Thanks Mags,
That further helps my understanding. I have so many ideas bouncing around now for improved rotor design etc it's hard to know sometimes what to focus on. Your explanation helps me to sift some of my ideas.
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my trace across the coils atm. Setting up to attach gen motor again.
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@futuristic this was posted on the Yahoo EVGRAY list
"cooling fan motors usually have permanet magnets in them, and you can feel
the notchy rotation to them as the cores in there line up with the magnets so there is some loss using a cooling fan motor as a chasssis unless that is differnt type of cooling
fman motor with no permanent magnet in there.
Also known as cogging. Losses can decrease with higher
RPM's.
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Very much hope that Replication, but ,,,,,
Very much hope that has been completed to Replication a friend's release full details of the circuit, and the use of component inventory.
PS: Can I use the Bedini SG or the window circuit? Results will be better?
Thank you!
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Working on the gen still. This is the coil, battery & LEDs out of a rechargable torch. Not sure what value the battery is. I'm hoping the action of the rotor mags will charge it.
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I really like your versions of this motor :).
It looks like you have two rotors on top of each other, am i right? if so are they spinning in the same direction or the opposite?
Can you tell me what you use to build your rotor. It looks like it cruises pretty fast.
Thanks in advance for answering my questions.
Scott
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Hey tooomanymiles that rotor is an old computer fan with the blades replaced by a teflon ring I cut out of a chopping board.
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New rotor design which I'll upload pix soon for but get a load of this scope shot over 1s. Voltage bounces up and down by 0.5v
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Ok finally got my meters setup properly so I can read amps & voltage whilst the motor i running. At 531RPM current is 25DCmA @ 6V. WHich is 0.15 watts? Anyway Getting better performance now I can watch when the switch config starts to suck amps.
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Ok 1500 RPM on 0.12 watts. 6.19v 20DCmA. Tuning the reeds & coils for max RPM as well as low current draw is the key. I'm not using any resistors in the circuit but I am using the bridge rectifier and I have realigned my coils to -+-+. New rotor is using 8 mags aligned Orbo style. will post pix soon.
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Ok bit more tweaking. Looks like 2DCmA at 6.14volt 920RPM 0.012watts? 12 milliwatts? been running at that for over an 2 hours now. Has bounced up as high as 6.16.
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Ok bit more tweaking. Looks like 2DCmA at 6.14volt 920RPM 0.012watts? 12 milliwatts? been running at that for over an 2 hours now. Has bounced up as high as 6.16.
Hi Jimboot,
Very good! Do you have any magnetic core in the coils? Or you use the coils as electromagnets (either in attract or repel mode) or on Orbo mode you mean first attraction to the cores, then saturating the cores? Sorry I cannot see if there are cores in the coils or not.
rgds, Gyula
EDIT: just realized you wrote Orbo style magnet mounting not mode of operation so ok you have probably no cores in the coils.
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Hi Jimboot,
Very good! Do you have any magnetic core in the coils? Or you use the coils as electromagnets (either in attract or repel mode) or on Orbo mode you mean first attraction to the cores, then saturating the cores? Sorry I cannot see if there are cores in the coils or not.
rgds, Gyula
EDIT: just realized you wrote Orbo style magnet mounting not mode of operation so ok you have probably no cores in the coils.
Correct - still an Ossie but my rotor has 4X 2 sets of mags aligned N/S like an orbo but the coils are still air coils
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Ok bit more tweaking. Looks like 2DCmA at 6.14volt 920RPM 0.012watts? 12 milliwatts? been running at that for over an 2 hours now. Has bounced up as high as 6.16.
920 RPM consuming only 12 miliwatts??? For over 2 hours?? Amazing!!!!!
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At 920 RPM is it generating a little stream of air, as a mini fan? Put there some micro wind "turbines" to transform that stream in electricity.
Is it getting hot? Use peltiers modules to transform that heat in electricity.
Is it noisy? Use piezo sensors of microphones to transform the sound in electricity.
None of these devices above will slow down the motor.
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At 920 RPM is it generating a little stream of air, as a mini fan? Put there some micro wind "turbines" to transform that stream in electricity.
Is it getting hot? Use peltiers modules to transform that heat in electricity.
Is it noisy? Use piezo sensors of microphones to transform the sound in electricity.
None of these devices above will slow down the motor.
Xlnt. It has lost voltage over night but it is maintaining around 1000RPM. It generates a breeze but not really focused in any particular direction. It is a little noisy but not much heat coming off it. I have tried attaching a gen motor a few times but I can't align it well enough to avoid a wobble.
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I'm also thinking about getting a coil around the rotor itsel, just clear of the mags. The mags I've found in rechargable torches (flashlights) are very weak ceramic ones. The neos should way outperform them. I have some prewound coils out of the torches but I think I need to wind perpendicularly around the rotor somehow for max effect.
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Ok I have wound a pickup coil but getting nothing from it. What have I done wrong here?
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I thought lighter gauge wire was what was required for pick up. Obviously not in this config. I'll try a heavier gauge
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Ok I have wound a pickup coil but getting nothing from it. What have I done wrong here?
Hi Jimboot,
I think the pickup coil is too big, compared to its active part that just faces any two magnets. I mean the active part where induction can happen is too short with respect to the total coil's circumference.
A possible solution could be to use one single air cored coil for one single magnet, the diameter of the coils would be about the same as the magnets and the coil diameter coil thickness ratio could be around 3 or 4 (I mean not long coils).
I know this is much mechanical work to fix 8 but much smaller coils (compared to your present big 4 ones) but I think it could induce quasi optimally. (With precise positioning so that all the magnets and all these coils could face each other in the same moment, the coils could be connected in parallel to enhance current loading capability, this reduces generator inner impedance; but this is not a requirement of course.)
Maybe there are smaller audio cross over coils ready made in the shop where you got your present 4 big coils from?
rgds, Gyula
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@gyulasun Thanks. I thought that may have been the case. I'll go to Jaycar today to see if I can find anything.
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Jim
Are the mags all the same pole out? If so, the coil is probably getting a nulled field potential the way the coil is. I would put some small thin 20 to 23ga 30 to 60 turns right in front of the driver coils. Then as you pull charge to a bridge and cap, you will be able to run the motor and pickup power from the rotor and the coils as it runs. And hopefully if the timing remains the same, the motor wont use any more than it is.
Its worth a shot to try 1 coil like this to see if it works. The rotor may be dragged down some, but if it still uses very little to keep it going, you could have some good power output on the charge.
Your pickup coil is also using too thin of a wire to get good current output. The 20 to 20 ga will generate some light bulb running currents.
Mags
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Oh on the thin pickup coils, try to get the core to be the same size as the driver cores in dia.
Mags
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I'm thinking about switching back to a larger rotor as it seems to have more torque. The extra mass maybe? But I'll think I'll do the same config of 8 mags rather than 4. The larger rotor will also create more room for pickup coils.
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Jim
Are the mags all the same pole out? If so, the coil is probably getting a nulled field potential the way the coil is. I would put some small thin 20 to 23ga 30 to 60 turns right in front of the driver coils. Then as you pull charge to a bridge and cap, you will be able to run the motor and pickup power from the rotor and the coils as it runs. And hopefully if the timing remains the same, the motor wont use any more than it is.
Its worth a shot to try 1 coil like this to see if it works. The rotor may be dragged down some, but if it still uses very little to keep it going, you could have some good power output on the charge.
Your pickup coil is also using too thin of a wire to get good current output. The 20 to 20 ga will generate some light bulb running currents.
Mags
Xlnt Thanks Mags. The poles are alternating on both axis.
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Oh on the thin pickup coils, try to get the core to be the same size as the driver cores in dia.
Mags
Mmm ok - that hould make things a little easier actually
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Try to keep the coil 1/4 in deep from front to back. Just try 1 to start and just send it through a bridge rect to a cap and see what voltage it gives. No switches or reeds on this coil, for now.
Mags
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Not 100% sure what current I'm drawing here but from what I can tell it is bouncing between 0.8DCmA & 1.5DCmA. I have switched back to a single D Cell which is at 1.25V. Currently doing 750RPM.
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haven't had any joy with pickup coils. Should I see a charge just by hooking the coil up to a meter whilst it's in front of the mags?
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Jim
Hook the pickup coils leads to the ac side of a bridge rectifier and the dc out to a cap. 100 to 1000 uf 16v or more.
Then measure the caps charge. And if you put a little light bulb or a 10ohm res, you can read the voltage and current to figure your watts out, as compared to your watts in.
Mags
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been running on my 55F super cap for 11mins now. rpms have decreased. Trying to retune to get a better rpm
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woohoo! Self runner... I think.
20mins on Cap 350RPM.
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29mins on a cap so far.
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Not sure really re self runner. I'll have to set it up for an extended run. Def a long runner tho :)
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Thanks Mags. I'll do that today. Doing another run on the cap. At 45mins so far but volts are dropping.
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Running 45 minutes just on one supercap is very impressive. 45 minutes is not 45 seconds. It's a lot of time! Very good!
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but just think how this could revolutionize current electric motors for different tasks imagine your cd player or even portable DVD player lasting 10x's as long or your hard disk drive sipping power as if it were a mouse of current day ... This could easily lead to longer lasting batteries using current laptops or desktops even its really more then just simply a motor you could charge this capacitor then not charge it again until the voltage reaches "x" level or amount that requires a quick charge in doing so we have a very efficient motor more then anything currently available now...
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Hi Jim,
I think I read that 1 Farad of a supercap is equal to 1 Amp Second. You are running on about 1.5 ma's?
A 55 Farad Supercap would give a rather long run I think. Sorry my friend.
You should look into Lutec's pulse motor generator. Interesting how they harvest the produced AC off of the same DC pulsed coils. It might be a way...
Cheers,
Bruce
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Jim
Hook the pickup coils leads to the ac side of a bridge rectifier and the dc out to a cap. 100 to 1000 uf 16v or more.
Then measure the caps charge. And if you put a little light bulb or a 10ohm res, you can read the voltage and current to figure your watts out, as compared to your watts in.
Mags
Ok I've hooked up a coil from a rechargable torch. I have a 1000uf 35v cap & I have used a bridge rectifier (one I prepared earlier) that I made for another ossie circuit using schottkies . The cap quickly charges to 3.3 volts if I try hooking up a globe or a battery to charge tho my motor stops. Presumably because I'm altering the field in my drive coils with my pu coil current draw?
Anyway I'm thinking I should hook up a 2nd in series and that will give me over 6v that I can feed back into my drive battery? Maybe use a diode that only lets the current pass when over 6v? Once I get that happening - as long as I'm not dreaming I'll switch to a single D cell then try the supercap.
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Hi Jim,
I think I read that 1 Farad of a supercap is equal to 1 Amp Second. You are running on about 1.5 ma's?
A 55 Farad Supercap would give a rather long run I think. Sorry my friend.
You should look into Lutec's pulse motor generator. Interesting how they harvest the produced AC off of the same DC pulsed coils. It might be a way...
Cheers,
Bruce
Yep I realised my mistake. A 45 min run. Nice but no cigar :) Back to the pu coils.
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Running 45 minutes just on one supercap is very impressive. 45 minutes is not 45 seconds. It's a lot of time! Very good!
Thanks but I'm looking for something I can eventually put in a Tesla sports car :) I have no idea if it's impressive but I am at least impressed I have learned a lot :D
Back to work now.
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Hey Jim
If the motor stops because you hooked up the charging circuit, then something was wrong in the hookup. I dont think that tiny coil would influence that motor as much as to bring it to a stop while running.
Also try a bit heavier wire for the pickup. It really doesnt have to have a lot of windings.
But thicker wire will deliver more current than thin.
Mags
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Hi All,
Please see the following circuit below. I am getting great results with this circuit and find that I can get both batteries to charge at the same time. I can also keep replacing B2 with another battery until it is charged whilst never having to replace B1.
Battery swapping of B1 and B2 also works very well.
Regards,
Ossie
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Hi All,
Please see the following circuit below. I am having great success with this circuit and find that I can get both batteries to charge at the same time. i can also keep replacing B2 with another battery until it is fully charged whilst never having to replace B1.
Regards,
Ossie
Ossie! Fantastic to have you back mate. I'll start replicating ASAP :)
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Hi All,
Please see the following circuit below. I am having great success with this circuit and find that I can get both batteries to charge at the same time. i can also keep replacing B2 with another battery until it is fully charged whilst never having to replace B1.
Regards,
Ossie
Will you be adding pu coils next :)
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Hi Ossie,
Would like to know if the switches are ON and OFF at the same time? (I think they are.)
Also, the two 100 Ohm resistances are the best 'compromise' for the batteries to 'see' each other?
This setup works in repel or attract mode?
One thing is: the more permanent magnets you use the more 'free' flux is available, it seems.
Thanks, Gyula
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Hi Ossie,
Would like to know if the switches are ON and OFF at the same time? (I think they are.)
Also, the two 100 Ohm resistances are the best 'compromise' for the batteries to 'see' each other?
This setup works in repel or attract mode?
One thing is: the more permanent magnets you use the more 'free' flux is available, it seems.
Thanks, Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Yes, both switches turn on and off at the same time and the coils are in attraction mode.
There is alot going on in this circuit which works particularly well with old sulfated 12V lead acid batteries who can still maintain their voltage but not much current!
Regards,
Ossie
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Ok got my motor up to 4000 RPM on 110 milliwatts tho - then the mags went flying :)
All better now. Put 2 of the little coils (tried to wind my own mags but go nowhere near the perfomance of these little guys) on & @2500rpm I get about 7.5V. So I will be adding another 2 tonight.
I still have a prob when I try & use the current tho. Even tho the pu circuit & motor circuit are not connected as soon as I try to run a bulb it kills the motor. Weirdest thing. The scope trace does not change either. The whole motor just stops. I'm thinking phase cancellation or some weirdness like that between the pu coil & drive coils.
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Hi Jimboot,
May I suggest trying to arrange the pick up coils further away from the motor driving coils so that their own flux fields could not interfere. I know this may cause difficulties because of given distances and sizes but one thing to be considered is the fields may affect each other. Maybe to test this you could hold a pickup behind the rotor magnets, radially closer to the axle (if the rotor body lets it of course).
Another test may be if you have a small ,say, 6 x 6 cm i.e high enough surface, thin metal plate that you hold between a pick up coil and the nearest driving coil to shield them from each other? Some transformer laminations would be great for this test. I know this may cause some magnetic drug but it is acceptable.
rgds, Gyula
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Still working on pu cois. Onto my 4th config now. One of the mags clipped a pu coil last night & sent things flying again. I haven't got much room to work with to get pu coils in there.
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Hi All,
Please see the following circuit below. I am getting great results with this circuit and find that I can get both batteries to charge at the same time. I can also keep replacing B2 with another battery until it is charged whilst never having to replace B1.
Battery swapping of B1 and B2 also works very well.
Regards,
Ossie
@Ossie
Whats scare me a bit in your setup is the primary battery, a 17A vs 3-5A secondary battery. Can you run the same test but with both battery of the same size just to be sure that the recharge effect is indeed real and not just a balancing effect between the 2 battery.
Best Regards,
IceStorm
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hey Jim
Well if the lil coils affect it that much, of which I am surprised, then I wonder if the could block a magnet as a stator as well.
The thing is, if the fine wire pu coil is enough to stop the motor, then it should use very little current to block a stator magnet to get motor effect. And the regen developed in the coil after the pulse should be a lot.
Other than that, Ossies setup seems to be the one to work on.
Sorry for the no go on that.
Mags
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@mags It's just toooo damn tempting tho. I'm seeing all that energy not being used. Current config of 3 pu coils (seems to wrk better than 4) running on 6 x d cells at 5.5v .02A at 2000rpm gets 4V. Haven't measured current yet but it seems a shame to just throw it away. I will pursue Ossie's new motor but keep the pu coils from these torches. A weird thing tho. If I angle the neg side of one coil close to the rotor it doubles the rpm and the amps drop.
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Hey Jim
Try the pu coils btween the drive coils. It looks like you can squeeze them in
Mags
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Hey Jim
Try the pu coils btween the drive coils. It looks like you can squeeze them in
Mags
I'll try again. Hard to keep them stable tho. Have to try a diff mounting. Lost a couple of good coils that way :-)
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Oh you already tried? oops.
If you get some plexi strips like 1/4 in. , it bends nice with the heat of a torch or hot air gun. It makes brackets easy.
I have an idea I will draw up later, I have to go to work. But if you use a small u bolt and wind a coil on the u and have a bracket or bridge and have the open ends of the u bolt aiming down, 1 bolt end just above the S pole and 1 just over the N pole. The bolt will attract the field of the mag upward and it will generate voltage.
Or you can do it from the top and bottom so there wont be a wobble induced in the rotor.
So you have it doing 4000 rpm? This is good. I would work on more speed as you go, but if the gen brings it down to to even 1000 rpm to get some decent output, retune the motor at that point. Loads change things so it has to be re tuned .
Mags
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Hi All,
Please see the following circuit below. I am getting great results with this circuit and find that I can get both batteries to charge at the same time. I can also keep replacing B2 with another battery until it is charged whilst never having to replace B1.
Battery swapping of B1 and B2 also works very well.
Regards,
Ossie
Ok circuit running with pu coils as well :) pu colils currently at 3.2v . Using 2x 12v batteries one old and suphated as the charge battery. Voltage looking good atm. Still not doing anything with my pu coils. Drive batt at .1A
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Oh you already tried? oops.
If you get some plexi strips like 1/4 in. , it bends nice with the heat of a torch or hot air gun. It makes brackets easy.
I have an idea I will draw up later, I have to go to work. But if you use a small u bolt and wind a coil on the u and have a bracket or bridge and have the open ends of the u bolt aiming down, 1 bolt end just above the S pole and 1 just over the N pole. The bolt will attract the field of the mag upward and it will generate voltage.
Or you can do it from the top and bottom so there wont be a wobble induced in the rotor.
So you have it doing 4000 rpm? This is good. I would work on more speed as you go, but if the gen brings it down to to even 1000 rpm to get some decent output, retune the motor at that point. Loads change things so it has to be re tuned .
Mags
Ok a lot to study there (for me) The coils as they are set are very finicky & inconsistent in their charge. I find the "booby" wave below is getting the most efficiency in drive mode.
btw 4000rpm is bloody scary. Had a couple of near misses with flying mags. I wouldn't be happy with anything under 1500 in this current rig.
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I still have a prob when I try & use the current tho. Even tho the pu circuit & motor circuit are not connected as soon as I try to run a bulb it kills the motor. Weirdest thing. The scope trace does not change either. The whole motor just stops. I'm thinking phase cancellation or some weirdness like that between the pu & drive coils.
In the Orbo schematic Steorn posted, you can see that they actually added a second rotor higher up on the spindle, with extra magnets that drive the pickup coils. Could you add something like that? So that the pickup coils aren't interacting with the time variance of the magnets on the main drive rotor?
These motors seem so dependent on a specific relationship between the coils and the magnets and very finely capturing the rising and falling fields. If you introduce extra competing fields it would seem to throw the delicate balance out of whack.
But still you should be able to capture some energy from the torque in the rotor, right?
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In the Orbo schematic Steorn posted, you can see that they actually added a second rotor higher up on the spindle, with extra magnets that drive the pickup coils. Could you add something like that? So that the pickup coils aren't interacting with the time variance of the magnets on the main drive rotor?
These motors seem so dependent on a specific relationship between the coils and the magnets and very finely capturing the rising and falling fields. If you introduce extra competing fields it would seem to throw the delicate balance out of whack.
But still you should be able to capture some energy from the torque in the rotor, right?
Yep. I just have to work out the right config. I've tried dupe mags above but my rotor is not keen on the extra mass. Even to the side of the drive coils there must be some interaction with the fields.
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hey Jim
Well if the lil coils affect it that much, of which I am surprised, then I wonder if the could block a magnet as a stator as well.
The thing is, if the fine wire pu coil is enough to stop the motor, then it should use very little current to block a stator magnet to get motor effect. And the regen developed in the coil after the pulse should be a lot.
Other than that, Ossies setup seems to be the one to work on.
Sorry for the no go on that.
Mags
I've only just understood what you're saying here! Great idea. I lost another coil last night tho so have to go buy another torch.
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Oh you already tried? oops.
If you get some plexi strips like 1/4 in. , it bends nice with the heat of a torch or hot air gun. It makes brackets easy.
I have an idea I will draw up later, I have to go to work. But if you use a small u bolt and wind a coil on the u and have a bracket or bridge and have the open ends of the u bolt aiming down, 1 bolt end just above the S pole and 1 just over the N pole. The bolt will attract the field of the mag upward and it will generate voltage.
Or you can do it from the top and bottom so there wont be a wobble induced in the rotor.
So you have it doing 4000 rpm? This is good. I would work on more speed as you go, but if the gen brings it down to to even 1000 rpm to get some decent output, retune the motor at that point. Loads change things so it has to be re tuned .
Mags
I may just have the thing in the shed. Thanks that's an easy one to test.
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switched my drive coils to the torch coils. 350rpm. More than 1DCmA but how much I'm not sure. 350 rpm. Voltage steady at 5.66. I think the rotor is too big.Smaller mags, rotor would spin faster. I don't think the field is big enough to drive my rotor fast.
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I found out tonight that my motor will operate on only one coil! Given my exp with turning 1 coil away incresed rpms I decided to drop coils off 1 by 1. It reminded me of PLs miniorbo replication.The voltage on the pick upcoils is over 1v higher than the battery. I'm not getting too excited yet as I dont know the amps are on the pu. Ihave hooked the pu coils to the batt. Voltage seems to drop tho. I've simply hooked up the + & - from the cap on the pu. Any thoughts?
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pu coils at 6.3 battery at 5.3v tuning is a bitch tho. The p2p voltage stays constant tho which I haven't seen b4. Also I am about to embark on rebuilding the rig. I'm going to offset the pu coils on their own brackets. Could the pu coils affect the mags when drawing the current off them? I'm assumming atm it is only affecting the drive coil.
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Hi Jim,
Now that I have seen the pictures on your setup where you showed the position of the pickup coils (two days ago or so) and you wrote that loading the pickups stopped the motor, I am sure the problem is the position: the current from the load creates a field that hampers, screens off the useful field from the main coils. thus any original attract or repel force that insured flowless working by the main coils are opposed. And you found that gradually the problem decreased as your decreased one by one the number of coils, hence you had less and less opposing force in front of the main coils.
So I also think the only remedy is to rebuild your setup indeed and place the pickups relatively far from the main coils or at least not just inbetween the main coil and any rotor magnet when these two latter just face each other.
And yes I think the pu coils will affect the motor operation: when you load them, RPM will surely decrease due to normal Lenz law and you will notice this in increased input current draw. I mean if you so far tested your present setup by slowing it down by your hand and watched the input current: it increased, right?
(I do not think pu coils would affect the magnets in any other way, except Lenz law.)
Regards, Gyula
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@gyula Thanks mate. Feel like I'm being helped along by giants here :). Everytime I think of lenz law I think of Stan Deyo's work. Rightly or wrongly. It just pops into my head. How can use that reaction rather than eliminate it. I have strpped it down and am running on a single D cell atm. I am thinking of aligning the pu so they each face a mag at the same time. That should at least eliminate them affecting the drive coil. In this pic it is running at 1.33 v & less than .01A doing 420 rpm. It's much more sensitive to tune tho. Got my booby wave trace back tho :)
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@woopy where are you at? @neptune? Has life got in the way? :)
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Left it running on one coil no pu overnight voltage is slightly higher than b4 I went to bed.
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Amps are registering below zero on my 1amp panel meter. 830rpm. 1.32v . The amp needle is constant just under zero. Single d cell 1 drive coil. ABout to attempt a cap run. Then back to pu coils.
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Volts drop very slowly on cap run but still drop. Back to pu
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Hey Jim here is an idea
Try Ossies circuit using 2 caps instead of the battery.
In his circuit, the drive battery gets its charge from the second battery through the resistors as a trickle charge.
If you have 2 caps, it would be worth the go.
Mags
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Voltage rising but I've seen it do this b4 , peak , then drop. I love this wave tho. 1 D cell started at 1.322 gone as high as 1.327 amps constant below zero. 920RPM
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Hey Jim here is an idea
Try Ossies circuit using 2 caps instead of the battery.
In his circuit, the drive battery gets its charge from the second battery through the resistors as a trickle charge.
If you have 2 caps, it would be worth the go.
Mags
I was thinking of something like that. I buggered up my 1st attempt at it. As voltage dropped on both batts. I think I had something arse about. I'll get another super cap tmrw
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This is the most efficient I have seen this motor run. Voltage now at 1.329 RPM constant amps still below zero on the meter. Would that mean it's running in the microamp range?
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Voltage up to 1.330 amps looked to have dropped rpms @ 980. Wave looks even better. I haven't touched it since it started the run.
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Can someone look at these calculations pls. At just under zero on the 1A meter I'm assuming it's running at .0008A X 1.30 =0.00104w? 980rpms
1.331 is blinking :)
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steady at 1.331 970rpm
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I would just let it run. Till it reaches some significant lower voltage. But if steady or goes higher, let it run. =]
Mags
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Can someone look at these calculations pls. At just under zero on the 1A meter I'm assuming it's running at .0008A X 1.30 =0.00104w? 980rpms
1.331 is blinking :)
Hi Jim,
But you have already calculated it, assuming your estimation of the .8mA current is correct. And if you consider the 1.331V battery voltage then the input power is 1.064mW.
If you could produce 2x 3x as many output power by the pu coils, you would be in a happy position... ;)
Gyula
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I feel like I'm hogging the thread. 1.332 v 930rpm
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Dude, Hog away. you are an Olympian at this motor. The Magathalon
Mags
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@jim,
HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT!
LOL
sam
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Can't believe it!
This motors is spinning at 930 rpm, consuming only 1 milliwatt?
Well, one joule is one watt/second. If this motor runs for 100 seconds, it only consumed 100 millijoules... Someone knows a way to harness more than 100 millijoules from this device in just 100 seconds?
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dropped back to 1.328 overnight. Ok now at least I can work on the dbl cap & pu coils today. :)
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@jim,
HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT!
LOL
sam
Actually I did tell my wife yesterday that I felt sleeping & eating were annoying interuptions!
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Dude, Hog away. you are an Olympian at this motor. The Magathalon
Mags
Magathalon Lols luvyawork!
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Hi Jim,
But you have already calculated it, assuming your estimation of the .8mA current is correct. And if you consider the 1.331V battery voltage then the input power is 1.064mW.
If you could produce 2x 3x as many output power by the pu coils, you would be in a happy position... ;)
Gyula
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing - looks like coil time :D thanks mate. Looks like I'll be doing a video today.
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Can't believe it!
This motors is spinning at 930 rpm, consuming only 1 milliwatt?
Well, one joule is one watt/second. If this motor runs for 100 seconds, it only consumed 100 millijoules... Someone knows a way to harness more than 100 millijoules from this device in just 100 seconds?
I'll be getting pu coils back on today. The hard part about this motor is the reed switches. Tuning them is like tuning a magnetic tv antenna.
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latest vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQPWmR22BBg
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trying to get an accurate amp reading. I switched to a 1 milliamp meter during the run & it was bouncing at 0.5ma then it gradually stopped & I couldn't start it again without switching it out. These are passive analogue meters as pictured above. I have it running at the moment via a multimeter on 250milliamp setting. The meter is in series like the analogue ones. ONce again it affects the tuning of the motor. It runs at around 100rpm on 10dcma according to the meter. If I use say 20milliamps I get 370rpm but the voltage fluctuates wildly. between 1.300 - 1.312. What are the meters doing to the current that would affect the motor so much?
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Amps somewhere around zero on the 1amp meter. voltage1.322 pu coil voltage 2.20. Now to try to get that back into the battery. rpms580
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Trying to make use of the voltage on pu coils. It's coming off a schottky bridge rectifier. I measure by putting a cap in parallel. I assuming I need to ditch the cap. Not sure what after that.
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trying to get an accurate amp reading. I switched to a 1 milliamp meter during the run & it was bouncing at 0.5ma then it gradually stopped & I couldn't start it again without switching it out. These are passive analogue meters as pictured above. I have it running at the moment via a multimeter on 250milliamp setting. The meter is in series like the analogue ones. ONce again it affects the tuning of the motor. It runs at around 100rpm on 10dcma according to the meter. If I use say 20milliamps I get 370rpm but the voltage fluctuates wildly. between 1.300 - 1.312. What are the meters doing to the current that would affect the motor so much?
Hi Jim,
Any meter has got an inner resistance, what is more analog meters have inner inductance due to the coil they have inside by default, and the coil has the wire resistance of course, in digital or analog multimeters this inner resistance comes from the series shunt resistances, depending on the range switch settings.
IF you have a digital meter, you can check your 1mA and your 1A analog meter inner resistances simply by measuring at their connecting points by your digital Ohm meter. (Make sure the polarity coming from the Ohm meter tips would not bang out the 1mA meter to full deflection, this depends on the range switch on your Ohm meter, start in the kOhm range.)
Your finding with the 1mA meter halting the motor sounds strange, at the moment I can only think the meter has got high enough inner resistance to drop voltage from the battery. And what you find with the increasing RPM by using the higher range settings on your multimeter surely means a decreasing voltage drop across the meter.
The fluctuation may come from the analog meter coil's self inductance (some L-R time constant's coincidence).
In your latest video where is the pickup coil? (I can see a small flat coil slanting on the back of the big coil?)
Gyula
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lit up a couple of leds with the pu charge. pretty dim tho.
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Hi Jim,
Any meter has got an inner resistance, what is more analog meters have inner inductance due to the coil they have inside by default, and the coil has the wire resistance of course, in digital ammeters this inner resistance comes from the series shunt resistances, depending on the range switch settings.
IF you have a digital meter, you can check your 1mA and your 1A analog meter inner resistances simply by measuring at their connecting points by your digital Ohm meter. (Make sure the polarity coming from the Ohm meter tips would not bang out the 1mA meter to full deflection, this depends on the range switch on your Ohm meter, start in the kOhm range.)
Your finding with the 1mA meter halting the motor sounds strange, at the moment I can only think the meter has got high enough inner resistance to drop voltage from the battery. And what you find with the increasing RPM by using the higher range settings on your multimeter surely means a decreasing voltage drop across the meter.
The fluctuation may come from the analog meter coil's self inductance (some L-R time constant's coincidence).
In your latest video where is the pickup coil? (I can see a small flat coil slanting on the back of the big coil?)
Gyula
Thanks Gyula. The pu aren't hooked up in that vid. I have 3 where I used to have the drive coils. I'll do some measuring. I'm guessing the current from the pu is very low given my test with the leds. Is it still possible to get it back into the motor if it has low amp but higher voltage?
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What matters is the resulting power from the output current and voltage received from the pickups.
Try to use the 3 pickups in series (watch for correct polarity not to ruin the induced voltages in antiphase) to make the forward voltage drop-loss due to the diode bridge negligible wrt the summed voltage output.
Unfortunately, in your present setup if you load the rotor (by inducing current in the pickups, for instance) this load will reflect in an increased current draw from the battery. Some kind of tricks are needed like Ossie showing...
Gyula
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Hey Jim
The pu coil should be on a bridge rectifier. Connect the pu to the ac end of the bridge, and the cap to the dc side.
If you are using led's, red ones will be brighter at 2v than blue or white, as they need 4v to light properly.
If the red ones are dim, then try a different pu coil.
Here is an idea, run one of your drive coils as a pu. Keep it away from the rotor at first, get the motor up to speed, and slowly bring in the big pu coil and see what haps.
Mags
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Hi Jim,
Look at the first post in this link here, the circuit shown by 'lanenal' is a possibility to utilize the collapsing field's energy for supplying back most of the energy taken from the battery. (Kind of variant of one of the circuits Ossie showed, but I have seen this similarly from P. Lindemann.) I do not mean this is a magical circuit and by no means OU, just recapture some energy otherwise wasted.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5446.0
Gyula
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@mags I have the BR setup & working. I have attached a cap. The leds were white & dim. The voltage I see over the cap atm is only 1.5v I think rpms being only at 650 atm is the issue. Battery voltage is 1.317 has been steadily rising about 0.007 so far. Just trying to work out how I get that voltage back into the motor.
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Hi Jim,
Look at the first post in this link here, the circuit shown by 'lanenal' is a possibility to utilize the collapsing field's energy for supplying back most of the energy taken from the battery. (Kind of variant of one of the circuits Ossie showed, but I have seen this similarly from P. Lindemann.) I do not mean this is a magical circuit and by no means OU, just recapture some energy otherwise wasted.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5446.0
Gyula
Thanks Gyula. My wife is away this weekend so I am spending it trying to nail this :) Had a look at the circuit but I'll have to look at it several more times b4 I can work out how to implement thanks. I love Lindemanns work so I'll pay close attention. I haven't measured the current on the pu coils yet as it is diff with my current setup (pun intended).
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@mags I have the BR setup & working. I have attached a cap. The leds were white & dim. The voltage I see over the cap atm is only 1.5v I think rpms being only at 650 atm is the issue. Battery voltage is 1.317 has been steadily rising about 0.007 so far. Just trying to work out how I get that voltage back into the motor.
Maybe just connect the bridge output (that includes the cap) in parallel with the battery? (positive out to pos bat, negative out to neg bat)
Use more pu in series. MAybe use both the 'lanenal' circuit (or Ossie circuit) and the pu output.
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In retrospect I think I should have mounted this whole thing on velcro :)
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Maybe just connect the bridge output (that includes the cap) in parallel with the battery? (positive out to pos bat, negative out to neg bat)
Use more pu in series. MAybe use both the 'lanenal' circuit (or Ossie circuit) and the pu output.
Ok that was easy :)hooked in parrallel voltage on battery 1.318 I'll let it run & see what happens. My heart is hoping for a runaway. bat voltage increases, rpms increase, pu coil v increases. etc. I think that proves my oter pu setup was affect the drive coil field at least.
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mmm hooked in parallel the voltage accross the cap drops to .8v
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btw the cap I am using is 35v 1000uf
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Hey Jim
Guyla is saying to hook the bridge dc output to the input bat. 1.5v charging the 1.3v bat. + from the bridge to the + of the input bat and the - of the bridge to the - of the input bat. Cap unnecessary.
The bat v should go up. some anyway
Mags
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Hey Jim
Guyla is saying to hook the bridge dc output to the input bat. 1.5v charging the 1.3v bat. + from the bridge to the + of the input bat and the - of the bridge to the - of the input bat. Cap unnecessary.
The bat v should go up. some anyway
Mags
ok Thanks mags I'll ditch the cap - just had some tuning/alignment issues. Once pu coil v is over batt again I'll hook up.
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I really am going to buy some velcro tmrw. Never thought I'd be sick of screwing.
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Hey Jim
Do that, then after seeing what is to be seen, try this.....
Put a reed across the pu coil, as in when the reed is closed, it shorts the coil.
Then try different placement for timing of the reed and see what haps.
Here is an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR7P-JSF6i4
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morning all Voltage same as when I went to bed. 1.316 930rpm. Amps look like .008. Off to get some velcro today & some additional pu coils.
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Quick vid just to show position of pu coils & new scope trace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJqbF0MND0
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voltage has risen to 1.320 over the last 6 hours. that is up .004. no pu coils hooked up. I think if this thing is tuned well enough it does indeed charge the battery. @ mags when I spin the rotor without power going thru the circuit I get the wave without the spikes. Which is why I think you're suggesting the using the drive coils as pu. Maybe I had polarity wrong or bad circuitry somewhere when I tried using them. Now that buoght another 3 torches & pulled them apart for their coils I'll try the big again 1st.
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Hey Jim
Do that, then after seeing what is to be seen, try this.....
Put a reed across the pu coil, as in when the reed is closed, it shorts the coil.
Then try different placement for timing of the reed and see what haps.
Here is an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR7P-JSF6i4
WTF!! 70v? Ok I tried it on mine and I got up to 9.5v! off my litlle 1mw. However it stops my motor the closer I get the reed. I think there maybe a sweet spot. That tuning device you use looks sensational. Did you just make it with a mag? Wish I had one of those 4 months ago:)
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Ok volts on the pu cap get to 15v. Whilst drv batt at 1.270. There's a nice bright flash as the cap discharges over a diode. I have a red diode which then glows faintly as the drops to a steady 1.78v. I am using 3 of my orig drv coils for pu. About to test the torch ones. Fascinating stuff thanks mags for the reed switch tip. I haven't bothered to tune the motor yet to it's efficient running of this morn vid so it is consuming a whopping .02A. I have tried to attach to batt. there is an initial spike at the battery meter then it goes back to where it was & the cap drops right away to under 1v.
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Hey jim
The reed in your case does not necessarily need the polarizing magnet. My rotor had every other mag N out and S out. So the polarizing mag gives the reed the ability to not close when N rotor mag passes it, but will close when a S rotor mag passes it.
But your rotor mags are all same pole out. So the polarizing mag is not absolutely needed. But it still can help in tuning the reed. It would be good to make a plastic or wood stand to hold the reed, and also keep it away from any iron brackets or screws as they affect the operation sensitivity, as seen in this vid below. Look carefully at the small drill bit used to tune the reed. This was before I had discovered using the polarizing mags. The drill bit directs the rotor mag field to the reed by attraction. Watch the whole vid for the various effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgs7dvyZqc
My reeds are usually activated with 1 end aiming at the rotor. This gives a sharper pulse. And a polarizing mag can help by adjusting it near the outer end to help complete the magnetic circuit in the reed for it to close.
I think I posted this vid here before, but here it is again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXbRvIqqatI
Mags
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this rotor is N/S so I'll have a look. Thanks could be just what I need to get this thing running even better. Iwas looking for a mag potentiomer early in the piece. Volts at the cap 18.05. Pretty low current tho given earlier experiments.
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@mags you've spoiled it! I want 70v now :) My thought it is I f I get this to charge quickly and use a diode to pass the charge to the battery when it reaches 3v I should get rapid 3v pulses into the battery. But I need better pu. You were right. The drive coils way out performed the torches I bought once I attached the reed. I notice you said yours was bifilar so I will be studying those today when I get a chance. Using the reed across the pu coils does increase drag on my rotor so I have to run it at around 0.01A to get the rpms up.
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Hey Jim
Really the rpms being high are not that important. The coil i used in the vid used RS 30ga 2 rolls of 200 ft ea. wound bifi. Then another coil on top just use som other wire I had.
My motor in the vid is not running that fast. And it does slow down with the gen. The green coil is RS wire also, 2 rolls of 75 ft on 1 bobbin, not bifi though, just 1 on top of another.
You say your rotor mags are alternating N and S out?
Mags
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I just got distracted. I was passing a mag near the motor and it sped up. I then grabbed another mag. Faced the opp pole on the opp side of the motor and peed increased greatly. I was initially intrigued by George greens demo of the ball bearing and mags but then discounted it as the movement in his hand causing the rotation of the bearing. But maybe there is an effect similar. My rotor mags arem opp poles. Reconf my rig.. again. Btw my bifilar coil performed badly.With the mags tho I reckon I trebled the rpm with the consumption staying around a milliwatt.
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Thanks Mags, yep N/S poles. I have a mag about 75mm (3") above the rotor and it has doubled it's speed whilst not using any more power. Voltage b4 going to bed was 1.177 This morning it was 1.184. I'll buy some more wire today. I have just bought a coil winder. My wife tells me that apparently it will also peel apples :)
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Hey Jim, I remember some days ago you did an experiment when your motor consumed only 1 milliwatt and achieved more than 700 RPM.
I found this in the web:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100323105952.htm
"The latest and smallest device, which measures one cubic centimeter, uses a piezoelectric material, which is a type of material that produces charge when it is stressed.
(...)
The generators have demonstrated that they can produce up to 0.5 milliwatts (or 500 microwatts) from typical vibration amplitudes found on the human body."
At more than 700 RPM, maybe your motor can make three units of this piezo generator produce 0.5 milliwatt, no?
At 700 RPM, the motor can make a small device of one cubic centimeter feels like it was receiving more than the "typical vibration amplitudes found on the human body", no?
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Hey Jim, I remember some days ago you did an experiment when your motor consumed only 1 milliwatt and achieved more than 700 RPM.
I found this in the web:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100323105952.htm
"The latest and smallest device, which measures one cubic centimeter, uses a piezoelectric material, which is a type of material that produces charge when it is stressed.
(...)
The generators have demonstrated that they can produce up to 0.5 milliwatts (or 500 microwatts) from typical vibration amplitudes found on the human body."
At more than 700 RPM, maybe your motor can make three units of this piezo generator produce 0.5 milliwatt, no?
At 700 RPM, the motor can make a small device of one cubic centimeter feels like it was receiving more than the "typical vibration amplitudes found on the human body", no?
Interesting find. Definitely could cause enough vibration.
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B4 I left home at 9am batt voltage at 1.185V Got home just after 5 & batt voltage at 1.196. RPMS 765. Current showing under 0. This is with my new rig with a tripod over the rotor & some neos directly above to increse the RPMS. Scopes & pix to follow.
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I'm getting closer to being able to call this the flux capacitor :D
I bumped it earlier, and put it out of tune. It kept running but started sucking up current. Think I'll do a cap run tonight & wind some new pu coils. I have retuned & voltage is back at 1.196.
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Hey Doc, Are you saying, you have invented a time machine? =]
When using a cap as a source, remember that a battery has a higher internal resistance than a cap. Meaning that you NEED to have a resistor inline with it so that it does not drain like a cap but like a battery. And the advantage here is that you can bypass the resistor to the cap when sending charge to the cap without having resistance to the cap taking on a charge. This will give you an advantage as compared to a battery.
Does the cap seem to run the motor faster than the battery? Well thats because the cap is able to dump a lot more during the pulse because it does not have that internal resistance of a battery.( look it up, internal resistance of a battery) But caps will accept recharge much better than a battery, without the resistance. =]
Ill try to make a circuit for you this evening to try.
Mags
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Well no Marty... but the tripod made it look like it :) That is excellent info about the cap. I'll try it tonight. (8 hours time)
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Flux capacitors are cool! But require 1.21 gigawatt! I think it's better to make a device that requires just 1 milliwatt!
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Hey Jim
Actually this Ossie circuit would be good to try for the cap. Just replace the battery with the cap and try some different value resistors.
Mags
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There was another circuit he had with the bridge rectifier also, and it will help collect gen from the coils when the reeds are open, i think its here in the thread.
Mags
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There was another circuit he had with the bridge rectifier also, and it will help collect gen from the coils when the reeds are open, i think its here in the thread.
Mags
Thanks
That is the circuit I use :) With the BR but without the resistors. I'll simply add the resistors.
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something I'm playing with to increase rpms
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Hey jim
The reed in your case does not necessarily need the polarizing magnet. My rotor had every other mag N out and S out. So the polarizing mag gives the reed the ability to not close when N rotor mag passes it, but will close when a S rotor mag passes it.
But your rotor mags are all same pole out. So the polarizing mag is not absolutely needed. But it still can help in tuning the reed. It would be good to make a plastic or wood stand to hold the reed, and also keep it away from any iron brackets or screws as they affect the operation sensitivity, as seen in this vid below. Look carefully at the small drill bit used to tune the reed. This was before I had discovered using the polarizing mags. The drill bit directs the rotor mag field to the reed by attraction. Watch the whole vid for the various effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgs7dvyZqc
My reeds are usually activated with 1 end aiming at the rotor. This gives a sharper pulse. And a polarizing mag can help by adjusting it near the outer end to help complete the magnetic circuit in the reed for it to close.
I think I posted this vid here before, but here it is again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXbRvIqqatI
Mags
Polarizing mags really help thanks. 1000RPM 1mw.
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Really a weird field pulsing off the motor. You can feel it in your body from foot away. Should i be concerned? :) I've wound another bifilar coil to mags specs. I get around 10v in the cap. My winding is crap tho. I used a fishing reel to wind it, I think I need to buy an electric coil winder. Any recommendations? But have managed to keep rrpms close to 1000 whilst amps sit on 0 (0.009?). Voltage 1.303. Whilst typing next to this motor I can feel the shake of it through my arms. I have also used mags technique of polarizing the reeds. Weird new scope trace as well.
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Really a weird field pulsing off the motor. You can feel it in your body from foot away. Should i be concerned? :) I've wound another bifilar coil to mags specs. I get around 10v in the cap. My winding is crap tho. I used a fishing reel to wind it, I think I need to buy an electric coil winder. Any recommendations? But have managed to keep rrpms close to 1000 whilst amps sit on 0 (0.009?). Voltage 1.303. Whilst typing next to this motor I can feel the shake of it through my arms. I have also used mags technique of polarizing the reeds. Weird new scope trace as well.
should add without the gen coil attached voltage at the batt gradually rises in this config.
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This is the scope trace I see when voltage rises in the battery. It's across the coil.
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Really a weird field pulsing off the motor. You can feel it in your body from foot away. Should i be concerned? :) I've wound another bifilar coil to mags specs. I get around 10v in the cap. My winding is crap tho. I used a fishing reel to wind it, I think I need to buy an electric coil winder. Any recommendations? But have managed to keep rrpms close to 1000 whilst amps sit on 0 (0.009?). Voltage 1.303. Whilst typing next to this motor I can feel the shake of it through my arms. I have also used mags technique of polarizing the reeds. Weird new scope trace as well.
Hi Jim,
It has been said that very fast moving rotation of a magnetic field will actually spin the Ether. As long as you have been spinning yours, non stop, I am not surprised that you feel a weird sensation near your motor. Just my 2 cents...
Cheers,
Bruce
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New rotor.
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New rotor, how is it going?
Mags
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Behaviour is sooo diff to the last one. More torque RPMs are down around 300 on 10DCmA & 5.2 volts. BUt it give me more room for extra pick up coils. I'm using a CDROM spindle & bearings from the computer fan. It is much more free spinning than the computer fan & takes a looong time to spin down. Still tweaking & tuning.
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Hi All,
Been busy burning my fingers with hot glue, having motors fly apart at high speed winding coils, modified fishing rods etc.
I've setup a seperate Youtube channel for this stuff as my other channel is mainly for work.
Anyway 3 new vids http://youtube.com/user/jimboot2 My motor will drive a small 12VDC motor using 50milliwatts at around 2500RPM. I think I need one of thoise hub dynamos that Ossie had in one of his vids.
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Ok Here is my thinking - A hub dynamo from shimano http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/HubDynamo/HB-NX22/20GED-DH-2N30-E_HB-NX22-EN_v1_m56577569830605425.pdf is rated for 6V 2.4watt. The fastest I've ever been on my mountain bike is 50kmh or 830m/minute. My wheel circumference is 205cm so my wheel would have to be doing around 4000rpm? I'm assuming the hub dynamo will reach top power before then. I can get my motor doing that at around 50mw. The current rotor has a lot more torque so I am hoping the dynamo will have a similar drag to my 12vdc motor that I had attached at 2500rpm. Just awaiting my dynamo :) May have to do some jiggery pokery to get the dynamo far enough away from the rotor mags so they don't interfere but I'm a bit excited :D
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Hi Jim,
I was qurious to learn the efficiency of hub dynamos in general and found claimed efficiencies of about 62-65% as normal.
I try to follow your reasonings with the numbers on speed, circumference etc but I am puzzled ::) not good at such calculations. I think it is not the best to start with your max speed (50km/h) because as I read most hub dynamos has a built in voltage limiter (and it is a power Zener diode with 7V or so to limit output voltage above a certain speed) so that the bulb(s) should not burn out.
So if you do not mind you could start with say 20km/h speed and calculate with it further on how the energy "budget" will look like?
I have not found any efficiency data for your hub type. In the data sheet you gave link to I see warning of electrical shock danger if you happen to touch the output wires and I am surprised if it produces much higher output voltage than 6V when the output is -say- unloaded? Nevertheless if the output can give shocks it may mean there is no any Zener voltage limiter inside?
Thanks, Gyula
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Hi Jim,
I was qurious to learn the efficiency of hub dynamos in general and found claimed efficiencies of about 62-65% as normal.
I try to follow your reasonings with the numbers on speed, circumference etc but I am puzzled ::) not good at such calculations. I think it is not the best to start with your max speed (50km/h) because as I read most hub dynamos has a built in voltage limiter (and it is a power Zener diode with 7V or so to limit output voltage above a certain speed) so that the bulb(s) should not burn out.
So if you do not mind you could start with say 20km/h speed and calculate with it further on how the energy "budget" will look like?
I have not found any efficiency data for your hub type. In the data sheet you gave link to I see warning of electrical shock danger if you happen to touch the output wires and I am surprised if it produces much higher output voltage than 6V when the output is -say- unloaded? Nevertheless if the output can give shocks it may mean there is no any Zener voltage limiter inside?
Thanks, Gyula
If it works happily at 20km/h then I should get charge at 1600RPM. VERY doable. The only question becomes how much drag is there.
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A quick video update on my current rig. Just waiting for the dynamo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGGhk-jMPhc
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hi Jim,
I'll keep my fingers crossed for your successful looping!
Will you use some extra mass on your present rotor and the would-be hub combination, I think here of a kind of flywheel effect whether it is needed to a certain degree, to store mechanical energy. I do not mean it is a must, just maybe, it all depends on total summed masses versus would-be "momentums".
rgds, Gyula
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Thanks Gyula, I think I'll try a couple of different rotors of differing masses.
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I've already established it can carry a load without drawing any more current so it will be interesting to see how much drag the dynamo has. I may have to work out how I can get the motor up to high RPMs first before engaging the rotor. I need a clutch I think :)
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...
The fastest I've ever been on my mountain bike is 50kmh or 830m/minute. My wheel circumference is 205cm so my wheel would have to be doing around 4000rpm?
...
not 4000.
400 rpm (830/2.05).
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not 4000.
400 rpm (830/2.05).
Doh I was doing 200mm - how embarrassing! :) That is low rpm. Looking forward to getting my dynamo. Edit: Maths & South Australian Shiraz don't mix too well.
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Still waiting for my dynamo but just saw this on the Minatow list. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd0hk3_moteur-energie-libre-6000-tr-min_news any thoughts? My guess it would have trouble carrying a load but 6000rpm without electrical input...... errrm
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Hi Jim,
My first problem with that video (by the way it has been mentioned/discussed somewhere on this Forum too) that there is no sound but music and my second problem is the camera did not zoom out in the room to show the sides area from where a air blower could blow concentrated air to the rotor...
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Jim,
My first problem with that video (by the way it has been mentioned/discussed somewhere on this Forum too) that there is no sound but music and my second problem is the camera did not zoom out in the room to show the sides area from where a air blower could blow concentrated air to the rotor...
rgds, Gyula
Ahhh an air blower yes. Thanks Gyula.
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Just got the dynamo today. VERY hard to turn by hand :( Will have a go at it tonight.
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Hi Jim,
I think the hub is tested together with a bicycle wheel and then the force to rotate it feel much easier than directly at the axis without the wheel?
I wonder also if lubrication is needed for hubs, I think they are self-lubricating?
Gyula
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Hi Jim,
I think the hub is tested together with a bicycle wheel and then the force to rotate it feel much easier than directly at the axis without the wheel?
I wonder also if lubrication is needed for hubs, I think they are self-lubricating?
Gyula
I think the resistance is magnetic :( The other difficulty is that the terminals are on the rotor of course! I have to spin the stator. mmmm
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I think the resistance is magnetic :( The other difficulty is that the terminals are on the rotor of course! I have to spin the stator. mmmm
Yes I thought of that is magnetic.
I think the best construction for this hub would be to fix its axle (i.e. its rotor) vertically into a wooden board and fasten a non magnetic wheel to its outside stator. And this wheel would be your rotor for the magnets that pass in front of your stationary (air core?) coils. This wheel ought to be at least 25-30cm of diameter at minimum.
Gyula
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Hello All!
Jimboot! I'm new here, but I've been following your work for a long time. Nice work! :)
I'm doing some research myself in that topic, and I have a few thoughts about them.
I'm sure you are familiar with the following formula: B=N*I/l. Consider this. If you use your wire from your 1.8mH coil to make a new coil, but you lower the length of the coil, it will be much stronger then the original coil. For example your coil is 1" long and it has B1. Make a new coil with 0.5" length. This means "N" and "I" is still the same, but "l2" is half of the original "l1", so B2 = 2*B1. So the repulsive force between the magnet and the coil will be twice as much as it was before. But I don't know how much can you lower the length of the coil. I mean if your coil is 2 mm long, the upper formula is still good? Now I'm using 1 coil. I attached it below. What do you think? Later I will show some photos about my work.
Regards, Augen
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Hey Jim
If its the type of gen or dynamo Im thinking of, when you turn it, it has many resting points right? Well you will need to add weight to the rotor to get it to run through those sticky spots. For example, if you added some flywheel to the gen as it sits, you will see that it will spin longer, and the more weight, the smoother it will spin.
Your motor will spin a heavy rotor, it will just take time to get it to top speed. So just give it a spinup then connect the power so the reed wont take a slow beating.
Mags
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...
I'm sure you are familiar with the following formula: B=N*I/l. Consider this. If you use your wire from your 1.8mH coil to make a new coil, but you lower the length of the coil, it will be much stronger then the original coil. For example your coil is 1" long and it has B1. Make a new coil with 0.5" length. This means "N" and "I" is still the same, but "l2" is half of the original "l1", so B2 = 2*B1. So the repulsive force between the magnet and the coil will be twice as much as it was before. But I don't know how much can you lower the length of the coil. I mean if your coil is 2 mm long, the upper formula is still good?
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Hi Augen,
The formula you wrote above is not familiar in that form because you used B instead of H. H is the H field in A/m, H*l gives the magnetomotive force, while B is the magnetic field in Tesla. So the correct formula is H=I*N/l
If you wish to use B here, you can because B=u*H where u is the permeability. So H=B/u and the formula becomes B=u*I*N/l
What you mean with the formula sounds ok to me and the physical explanation for the stronger force is that for a coil of short length the magnetic field has to stay and cover a shorter path in the air than in case of a longer coil and as is known the air's magnetic conductance is poor. Possibly the 'pancake' coil form is the shortest construction possible because its 'length' is just the wire diameter.
But you have to find a tradeoff between the coil length and diameter because the shorter you choose the coil the higher its diameter becomes, assuming the same Amperturns, I*N is to be maintained. And higher diameter coils involve higher diameter permanent magnets.
Thanks, Gyula
PS: here is a link to the coil calculator for those wishing to use it:
http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm
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Hi Gyula,
You are right. B=u*I*N/l. That is the formula I'm using, but I forgot about the 'u' part in my previous post. Thanks for it. :)
My problem is the following. I did some tests, but the result wasn't what I expected. A made 2 coils. One of them is on the picture I previously uploaded. The other one has the same outer and inner diameter, but half the length (2,5 mm). I connected them in series (so they've got the same current). Using the formula you mentioned, both coils should have the same strength. In my test, the thicker coil was a bit stronger. And I don't know why. Today I'm going to do some other test. I'm gonna connect my coils (I have 4 coils) in series and in parallel, and check the results. I hope I will get some answers. But I'm almost sure, the coil Jimboot is using could be much stronger with a shorter length (using the same current).
Thanks, Augen
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Hi Augen,
My question is that out of the two coils you connected in series, the one with half the length (2.5mm) has got the same number of turns like the other one? Also, are the DC resistances the same?
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Gyula,
No. By cutting the length of the coil to half (from 5mm to 2.5mm), I decreased the length of the wire to half -> so both the number of the turns and the resistance were cut to half. It is like cutting the 5mm long coil in two 2.5mm long peaces. If you put them together, you would get the original coil. Like these below.
Augen
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Once your longer coil has twice the number of turns than your 2.5mm long coil has, then why wonder the longer coil is stronger?
EDIT: if Amperturns differ, so does B, no?
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If Amperturns matter that much, then you are right. But what about "B"? "u" is the same. U=3V and B=N*I/l (without "u"). So:
Coil 1:
N=660 turns
l=5 mm
R=14 Ohms
I=215 mA
142 Amperturns
B=u*28380 T
Coil 2:
N=330 turns
l=2.5 mm
R=7 Ohms
I=430 mA
142 Amperturns
B=u*56760 T (using 430 mA)
71 Amerturns
B=u*28380 T (using 215 mA) In that case, both coils have the same current.
So what about this? The math seems right. Then what is wrong? In parallel the amperturns are the same and B is twice, but in series amperturns are half and B is the same. So what matters? Amperturns or B? It is important, because the key to this project is to make the most powerful coil, using the list current. Right?
I did some experiments and I experienced the same as before. In series the bigger coil was stronger, and in parallel the smaller coil was stronger (I had twice the current. I guess that is the reason.)
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Hi Augen,
So what matters? Amperturns or B?
Well, in the meantime I realized we are dealing with an electromagnet (lol) and as such its attract (or here the repel) force depends on B squared, B2 ok? (see some more here http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/force.html )
So when you have them in parallel, the current is being higher in the thinner 2.5mm coil and the resulting B is higher, hence its squared value is even higher and this gives a stronger force.
And when you have them in series, the current is being the same but the number of turns are different, (the smaller coil has just half number of turns than the big coil) so the same current can only create less H field, hence the B2 value is also less.
The "strange" thing is the attract (or repel) force of an electromagnet is proportional to B2, and B2 is proportional to the current squared, I2.
You can also consider this as follows: an air cored coil that has a higher number of turns than another coil, can store higher magnetic energy because its stored energy is proportional to its inductance L, and normally a coil with higher number of turns has got a higher inductance. (EL=L*I2/2 I=current)
And when you reduced the length of one coil to half wrt the other one, you reduced its inductance too. If you want to compare coils with differing lengths, you ought to use identical inductance coils with the same current flowing through, this would involve higher OD for the shorter coil to maintain the same inductance.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Gyula,
I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that I was talking about electromagnets.
So here are the formulas:
F=B*B*A/(2*u) -> using fix u and max A (25mm diameter magnet -> 25mm inner diameter electromagnet) somehow we have to maximize B. Right?
??=I*N=H*l -> H=I*N/l and B=u*H -> using fix u we have to maximize H
H=I*N/l -> we have to maximize the amperturns in the possible shortest length (l). But if the inner and outer diameter is fix, by increasing N you increase l so N/l won't change. Or just a little. But by increasing N, you increase "R" so "I" will be decreased. Bottom line, by increasing N and l, you decrease H. Am I right?
EL=L*I^2/2 -> By increasing N and l (fix ID and OD) H will by less, but the store energy will be more.
So my question is: if you have for example 100m long wire, how can you make the possible strongest electromagnet from it?
Thanks, Augen.
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Very busy at work atm. However I have wound the drive coil off to half. Initial tests indicate stronger effect. Current draw fluctuating a lot. More tuning of reeds & testing of rotors required. Thanks @Augen
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Hi Gyula,
I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that I was talking about electromagnets.
So here are the formulas:
F=B*B*A/(2*u) -> using fix u and max A (25mm diameter magnet -> 25mm inner diameter electromagnet) somehow we have to maximize B. Right?
??=I*N=H*l -> H=I*N/l and B=u*H -> using fix u we have to maximize H
H=I*N/l -> we have to maximize the amperturns in the possible shortest length (l). But if the inner and outer diameter is fix, by increasing N you increase l so N/l won't change. Or just a little. But by increasing N, you increase "R" so "I" will be decreased. Bottom line, by increasing N and l, you decrease H. Am I right?
EL=L*I^2/2 -> By increasing N and l (fix ID and OD) H will by less, but the store energy will be more.
So my question is: if you have for example 100m long wire, how can you make the possible strongest electromagnet from it?
Thanks, Augen.
Hi Augen,
I am afraid your last question could be answered from a good 3D electromagnetic optimizer software like for instance Infolytica 3D or Maxwell 3D but their price is prohibitive, unfortunately.
Regarding your discussion of the formulas above, I notice the followings:
1) I do not think you would have to confine yourself with fixing the inner and outer diameters because then you cannot find an agreeable tradeoff. So I think you are free to choose inner diameter for the "dream" coil from 0.5*OD to 0.9*OD of the permanent magnet so that the outer diameter of the coil can range higher than the permanent magnet OD diameter, depending on the wire diameter and on the number of turns. IF you do not choose this relationship for the coil ID, then you fully lose your freedom on selecting thicker wires, which is important to reduce copper loss. I do not think you strictly have to observe coil ID=magnet OD, ok? It is unnecessary.
2) Now if you agree with the above reasonings you can find a length for the coil which of course should be a small value so that the flux created should find the smallest distance in the air to travel. So this length in practice could be chosen as between ,say, 2mm to 10mm whatever the wire diameter and the number of layers may dictate, considering and confronting the notice on the wire diameter above at point 1.
Quote from you: "Bottom line, by increasing N and l, you decrease H. Am I right?" You are right if you confine yourself for not letting coil ID and OD be varying.
Finally, there is the so called Brooks coil geometry which gives the maximum inductance possible for a given wire length, see here:
http://www.nessengr.com/techdata/brooks/brooks.html
Before you say 'Heureka' I do think we have to combine the above reasonings with the Brooks coil geometry conditions and also make a tradeoff because the condition for the Brooks geometry is not a strict or strong 'function' to observe.
The Brooks coil calculator does not include wire diameter unfortunately. And be aware it uses radius of coil, not diameter.
I found a useful air cored multilayer coil calculator which asks for only a inductance value you wish to get and gives a tabelle of useful data on several wire gauge, ID, OD, and number of turns which all would give the same inductance value, only the coil's geometry changes. here it is:
http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/inductor_info.html It is offered for audio crossover coils. I mention this only to widen our general knowledge on air core coils calculations, not for further 'confusion'.
I hope all this 'ramblings' will help you (and the others) to arrive at a "dream" coil for the job.
Gyula
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkI7cMszQcI coil wound back to half. Sorry about the voice. Went to the football (aussie rules). I'm now running it on a single d cell for the last 28 hours at around 900 rpm V has dropped .03 in 24 hours. But I'm sure I can tune it better given the trace over the coils I'm seeing. Current draw at .01. V @ 1.23 .
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Hi Jimboot,
If I observed correctly your present coil, you removed about half of the original windings from the bobbin diameter-wise BUT I think Augen and I were talking about coils with less lengths which does not mean reducing in the radius direction but in the coil's axle direction, reducing the coil's thickness, not its diameter.
What I tried to suggest to Augen is that to make a stronger coil you would wish to choose a coil ID of 0.6-0.7OD of the magnet, i.e. if you have OD=25mm magnet then you could make a coil that has an ID=0.6*25=15mm or around this value. And the thickness (or the length) of this coil would be any size between 4 to 8mm. Experimentation is needed here, especially for the starting ID of the coil. And comparison of the original coil to the modified coil is valid only if you use the same length of wire for the modification, ok? This means that the modified coil will have a higher OD in the end than that of the original coil, even if you observe starting with less ID as part of the modification and also make the coil thinner.
If you really find your present modified coil shown in the video is better than the unmodified, then the improvement may also come from the higher current your coil draws due to its half as much DC resistance. And this higher current is the peak current value what you cannot really see on your analog meter that always show avarege values. (Peak current could be seen on a scope, probing the voltage drop across a 1 or 10 Ohm series resistor.)
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Gyula,
You mentioned two electromagnet optimizing software. Do you have one or you just found them on the internet? Maxwell 3D seems to be a complex program. I just want to make a strong electromagnet using a 100m copper wire (0.45mm diameter) to repulse my neodym magnet (diameter=25mmm, thickness=5mm). Maybe you can help me with this, if you have this program and you know how to use it. It would be a great help to me.
Using your advices, I calculated a new coil. (Coil3.png) Do you suggest this coil will be stronger then the previous I posted? (Coil1.png)
Hi Jimboot,
Replying Gyula's last post: he is right. When I'd advised you to make a shorter coil, I'd ment what Gyula sad. I'm sorry if I misleaded you.
Thanks Augen
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Hi Augen,
Unfortunately I do not have any of the software programs I mentioned. I have read about them in the internet referred to as top rate electromagnetic analysers and optimizers. Maybe at a local university EE faculty near to you they may have such (there are other similar ones like Infolytica, etc) and you could approach them with your problem.
On you new coil Coil3.png: it has the length=8mm while your Coil1.png has only 5mm, this is against your suggestion of using shorter coils?
IT is true Coil3 has less inner diameter 20mm versus the other 25mm. I would suggest choosing the inner diameter to be 12mm and the length be 5mm. Then you would get about 95m wire length, with 759 number of turns, DC resistance 12.78 Ohm.
rgds, Gyula
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Hi Gyula,
I'm sorry to hear that, but never mind. I'm gonna figure something out. :)
I know. My new coil has 8mm length. That's because I'm not sure, that the calculated "B" value is really gonna evolve when the coil is that thin. I did some tests: a 4mm and a 2mm thin coils were connected in series (same ID and OD and the thinner coil had half the wire length of the 4mm coil). Using the formula for B, the two coils should have had the same strength. Instead, the 4mm thin coil was a bit stronger. Then I connected them is parallel. In that case, the 2mm thin could should have been twice as strong as the other. Instead it was just a bit stronger than the 4mm thin coil. So I guess, there must be some sort of rule for determining the geometry of the coil, when the usual formulas are correct. Like OD/l has to be below 4 or I don't know, "l" has to be min. 4mm. ???
The other problem I've been having is that formula: F=B*B*A/u. When you use a smaller ID the area of the electromagnet (A) will be much smaller, decreasing the value of "F". Am I right?
There must be a difference between these types of coils (and maybe the formula for B???):
H
H
H HHH
H HHH
H HHH HHHHHH
1. 2. 3.
1. thin coil
2. thicker coil
3. a long coil
Thanks Augen.
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Hi Augen,
When you compare coils, PLEASE consider their number of turns and their DC resistances too. Meaningful comparisons can only be made if you use the same length of wire for both coils. I hoped I had explained it in the previous page of this thread (Reply #534).
When your coils were in series, the same current caused a higher B for the 4mm coil because it had higher number of turns, right?
When your coils were in parallel, the 2mm coil got stronger current (its DC resistance is half of the 4mm coil), but had less number of turns, so it performed only a little better than the 4mm coil.
Regarding the cross section area of the coils I think you cannot consider ONLY the inner diameter of a coil as the EFFECTIVE area. It would be true for a coil that has a soft iron core which would 'collect' and guide the coils flux. Here we have air core so no collection and guidance.
This means for me that the total effective area for an air core electromagnet coil is its total facing area towards the permanent magnet.
This is why I suggest using for the coil's ID at least half times the OD of the permanent magnet, maybe even less than half times of it would be good, experimentation can answer this or a good EM analyzer software.
I agree with you that the different coil shapes you showed must have different flux strengths etc. But if you wish to compare them, use the same length of wire for making them.
rgds, Gyula
PS: Just found, here is a video showing the magnetic poles of a pancake air core coil, the strongest field seems to be in the center:
http://video.filestube.com/watch,1df15c74c7cb52ab03ea/hydro4f3a-016-Pancake-polarity.html
Also, there is polarity check for pancake here:
http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/rmfd_experiment.htm
EDIT: pancake coil here is a spiral coil, its length is only the wire diameter used for making it.
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Hi Gyula,
You are right, but I used different coil-length for a reason. I wanted to test the formula for calculating the value of "B". The length is proportional to the DC resistance and the number of the turns. The DC resistance is proportional to the current. You know, using shorter wire, you get less turns and less DC resistance, but a higher current. It is important to compare coils with different length of wire, because if the formula for "B" is correct, you will be able to get more power from the same length of wire using thinner coils. For example (using 100m long wire, and the same ID and OD): you can make 1 thicker coil or 4 thinner coils in series. Like:
HHHH or H + H + H + H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
Using the formula for B, the 4 thinner coils together should be 4 times stronger then the 1 thicker.
Explanation: The sum of the length is the same (100m) so the DC resistance and the current is the same.
Thicker coil:
Number of turns: 4 times more then the thinner, so 4N
Thickness: 4 times more then the thinner, so 4l
B=u*4N*I/4l=u*N*I/l
Thinner coil:
Number of turns: N
Thickness: l
B=u*N*I/l, but you have 4 of it, so B=4*u*N*I/l
What do you think?
Thanks Augen
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a quick update. Work has kept me busier than a one legged river dancer playing football. Been messing about with coils Based on Augen & Gyula. Ended up with stacked end to end in series. No theory just mucking about. Pardon my ignorance but in the scope shot attached the spikes represent the pulse across the coil? The wave is the mags passing the coils. That is what I have deduced from what I see. If I spin the rotor without the battery I get the wave. So from my noobie thinking I need a coil arrangement that is efficient pu as well as able to turn the mags. I realise I probably sound about as clever as a box of hammers but atm the motor has been running for three days no change in voltage. The stacked coils are in series, voltage at 1.4 amps bouncing between under 0 and 0 rpms @360.The key to me is the timing & type of coils.
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....
HHHH or H + H + H + H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
HHHH H H H H
Using the formula for B, the 4 thinner coils together should be 4 times stronger then the 1 thicker.
Explanation: The sum of the length is the same (100m) so the DC resistance and the current is the same.
Thicker coil:
Number of turns: 4 times more then the thinner, so 4N
Thickness: 4 times more then the thinner, so 4l
B=u*4N*I/4l=u*N*I/l
Thinner coil:
Number of turns: N
Thickness: l
B=u*N*I/l, but you have 4 of it, so B=4*u*N*I/l
What do you think?
Thanks Augen
Hi Augen,
Well I think the magnetic field, B can indeed be increased by 'sandwiching' several thin coils of the same thickness as a single thicker coil has, made of the same wire length. However I think you have to make the ID of the thin coils as small as practicable because only this way can you fill out the space in the radial direction all the way to the OD. I think this is important, and by choosing a higher ID you eventually lose on the benefits of the smaller ID (radially you introduce more air space if your ID is higher). I think of ID values as small as 5-6mm.
I think the B field increase effect is similar to the one when you attach two identical permanent magnets to each other, NSNS, and B becomes higher in the axial direction, flux lines will be more oval-like than for the same one single magnet. I am not sure the B doubles in this case but may approach the double value.
Also, I am not sure the 4 thin coils together will increase the magnetic field, B by four times as the formula may predict (you have to consider the air gap between the 4 layers, and possibly some other factors).
rgds, Gyula
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a quick update. Work has kept me busier than a one legged river dancer playing football. Been messing about with coils Based on Augen & Gyula. Ended up with stacked end to end in series. No theory just mucking about. Pardon my ignorance but in the scope shot attached the spikes represent the pulse across the coil? The wave is the mags passing the coils. That is what I have deduced from what I see. If I spin the rotor without the battery I get the wave. So from my noobie thinking I need a coil arrangement that is efficient pu as well as able to turn the mags. I realise I probably sound about as clever as a box of hammers but atm the motor has been running for three days no change in voltage. The stacked coils are in series, voltage at 1.4 amps bouncing between under 0 and 0 rpms @360.The key to me is the timing & type of coils.
Hi Jimboot,
I think you have found a good coil setup by stacking two coils of different ODs and placing the smaller one nearer to the rotor magnets. Because I think the smaller coil is able to guide most of the bigger coil's flux towards the rotor magnets, and it can do it better than you would place the big coil as near to the magnets as the smaller coil. The reason is I think that the big coil's flux obviously 'jumps' towards the small coil's flux (they appear almost in the same time) and vice versa BUT then the permanent magnet flux is also there and 'sees' and interacts with the guided and focused flux of the coils. Can you use 2 more coil pairs like those? and connect them in series, this way current could go below 1 Amper?
Yes I think those spikes are from the coils but then you have now two coils interacting by their flux and maybe the small time difference between the two spikes represent the difference in their inductance? IF you remove the smaller coil you can see only one spike as usual, I think? (Maybe I goof here.)
Thanks, Gyula
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Hi Gyula,
Last time when I wrote about the 4 thinner coils, I didn't mean to use them as a sandwich, but to put them to 4 different places, like the 4 magnets on Jimboot's rotor so you have 4 magnet-coil pairs. This way, you use all the 4 magnets at the same time, not just 1 at the time. I guess, it is like the original Jimboot replica of the Ossie motor (4 magnets, with 4 coils around them). The problem is, if you have a geometrically good coil (like my blue coil seems to be, which has special geometrical rate), cutting it to pieces and use them in series make it worse, because in that way, you ruin the good geometrical rate. The thinner coils will be too thin comparing to their OD-ID rate. I will explain it later. But if you have a geometrically good coil, using 4 of it will decrease their strength because the 4 coils have a 4 times greater resistance, so each coil will get 4 times less current comparing to the setup, when you use only 1 coil. That's why Jimboot got a higher rpm using 1 coil instead of 4, but using that setup, you using greater current. Is that clear? Because it is harder to explain things by writing them instead of telling them. "See coils.png"
I'm not sure that the sandwich type is better. The outer coil is too far from the magnets. Check this out: http://www.magneticsolutions.com.au/cgi-bin/flux-graphs?page=fluxgraphs
On that graph you can see magnetic flux, and how it decreases by increasing the distance.
The sandwich type is just a longer coil, but it has an air gape between the 2 coils it is made of. If the sandwich type has a better geometrical rate, it can be stronger, I guess.
Returning to my previous problem:
- Gyula, I guess you were right about the smaller ID, but this means when you calculate the force between the magnet and the coil, the 'A' is not the ID, but the OD. But why? I always belived that the effective area of a coil is the inner area, not area of the coil itself. Maybe I was wrong.
- Calculating B, I got that the Green coil should be about twice as strong as the Blue. But, when I tested them by connecting them is series, the result showed me that the Blue coil is stronger then the Green. So I guess, there must be some sort if geometrical rate, when the calculated 'B' is correct. The length of the wire in the 2 coils is almost the same.
- Next I'm going to make a new coil, with a much smaller ID (about 5mm), using the same geometrical rate as the Blue has: (OD-ID)/2 = l
I posted some pics, so you can compare the 2 coils I used, and you can see my setup of the Ossie motor.
Regards Augen.
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I forgot about my setup. :)
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...
I'm not sure that the sandwich type is better. The outer coil is too far from the magnets. Check this out: http://www.magneticsolutions.com.au/cgi-bin/flux-graphs?page=fluxgraphs
On that graph you can see magnetic flux, and how it decreases by increasing the distance.
The sandwich type is just a longer coil, but it has an air gape between the 2 coils it is made of. If the sandwich type has a better geometrical rate, it can be stronger, I guess.
Returning to my previous problem:
- Gyula, I guess you were right about the smaller ID, but this means when you calculate the force between the magnet and the coil, the 'A' is not the ID, but the OD. But why? I always belived that the effective area of a coil is the inner area, not area of the coil itself. Maybe I was wrong.
- Calculating B, I got that the Green coil should be about twice as strong as the Blue. But, when I tested them by connecting them is series, the result showed me that the Blue coil is stronger then the Green. So I guess, there must be some sort if geometrical rate, when the calculated 'B' is correct. The length of the wire in the 2 coils is almost the same.
- Next I'm going to make a new coil, with a much smaller ID (about 5mm), using the same geometrical rate as the Blue has: (OD-ID)/2 = l
...
Hi Augen,
Ok on your 4 thinner coils you did not mean to sandwich but use them separately with 4 magnets, I do think it is BETTER than sandwiching them.
However, the sandwich arrangement also has merits especially if the coils are very narrow indeed, so that the mechanical length or thichness of the sandwiched coils are kept at a minimum possible. And the minimum possible length is attained if you use a single wire thickness coil for the sandwich layers, the case for the pancake coils. Please read in the Abstract part of this paper for explanation: ..."the turns of the coils are not concentrated at the circumferences but distributed across the diameters." i.e. the turns of the two (or more) coils can directly and very closely face each other in the total area embedded within the circumference, so the (magnetic) coupling improves between the coils.
This explains why the small ID is needed: you have to fill the inside space with wire radially up and up, increasing the circumference; in a conventional solenoid coil (or in a multilayer coil with high ID) there is wire only at or near to the circumference, mainly length-wise, and the inner radial-wise space is 'empty'.
Here is the paper:
http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~btill/papers/neurimp/Zierhofer_Hochmair_1996_00503178.pdf
Now back to your 4 separate coils because I also think they will be more promising. I would like to draw your attention on an experiment Ian showed with a pulse motor, using only one big coil and he compared it to a pulse motor with 8 coils, using the same input power like the one coil motor:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1754.msg31932.html#msg31932
(It is worth reading his further posts in the second page of the above link, though not reported ou.)
You have built a nice setup from Lego parts for sure, not to mention your coils. ;) I think your blue coil is 'stronger' because (even though it has higher ID than the green coil) it fits much better to your magnet cross section area than the huge green one, this latter 'wastes' its bigger area: if you had magnets with comparable diameter to the green coil (and suppose these magnets would have the same strength than your present magnets), then I think you would have experienced the green coil was better. I already described in previous posts above what ratio I think may be good for the coil/magnet diameter but of course the tests are to decide.
Re on the geometry of your coil, (OD-ID)/2 = l, is it the Brooks coil geometry? IF yes you may have to change a little that ratio to be able to reduce the length of the coils, no?
So I think the bottom line is the more coils and magnets you use in such setups, the better torque you get and if you combine this with Ossie's switching circuits to utilize the collapsing fields energy at the switchoffs, then you can have even better performance. Will it be ou? I do not know unfortunately, I hope. Maybe Ossie already knows? ;)
rgds, Gyula
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I forgot about my setup. :)
Aaaahaaa! You wouldnt live near Narre Warren wd u?!
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running 7 days non stop at 460rpm. Voltage drop hard to measure. Tried diff meters but is irregular. May have dropped .01 Time to switch & try more Augen & Gyula ideas. :)
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Hi Gyula,
Maybe you are right about the coupling of the coil, but in that case you have to use them differently. For example place 2 coils about 2 cm apart so the B field is almost constant between them, and the magnet is moving between the 2 coils in a strong B field. See pic1.
I'm going to make a new coil: ID=5mm; OD=30mm; length=5-8mm. I'm hoping this will be much stronger, then the blue one (See Reply #548).
I think, using more coils will help me to get closer to OU. More coils use less energy (more coils -> higher resistance), and I'm hoping that the performance of the motor won't decrease much. (1 strong coil <-> more weaker coils, because of the less current, using the same voltage). But using more coils, you can generate more current, while using less current. (Ossie motor v1.2) I'm wondering weather the latest Ossie motor really works (12 magnets - 12 coils and 12V batteries).
Hi Jimboot,
I'm sorry, no. I'm from Europe.
Maybe we should try to build the latest Ossie motor (12 magnets - 12 coils and 12V batteries). He sad he'd got great results and achieved OU. (If I remember correctly)
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Hi Augen,
Well, I think the 2cm distance between the coils would be too long, maybe 6-7mm would give much better flux strength in the gap and a 5mm thick strong magnet could still pass easily in the gap.
Re. on the more coils use less energy, this is ok and have you read Ian's suggestion on connecting series coils groups also in parallel with each other?
here it is:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1754.msg35080#msg35080
It seems the more magnets you bring in to interact with the coils, the more flux quantity would be involved for the same input power.
rgds, Gyula
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Been working on a new rig. Getting some weird results. Im using a vertically positioned hdd rotor, mags & platter facing a bifilar coil i wound. It seems very efficient will post some odd scope shots soon.
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Vid of the new setup http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?client=mv-google&v=QMW-Nr2Qb_Y
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Hi Jim,
If you use those original flat magnets found in HDDs then they have NS not only through their thickness but also lengthwise (and their original backplate conducts flux to screen their backside and make their front face side stronger). See this link it explains better with pictures:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Hard-Disk-Drive-Magnets-For-Wind-Turbines.htm
So all I wish to notice is originally they have two poles to their front side, this is what you may find strange when watching the induced voltages on scope.
I found your video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMW-Nr2Qb_Y
rgds, Gyula
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Thanks Gyula I posted from my ipad so the url was a bit odd.
Here is the scope shot. The coil / switches are very noisy. The squeaking you hear in the vid is not coming from the rotor.
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Hi guys is there a way to modify bedini ssg circuit or any other motor with same pulse to charge it's own battery?
Thanks
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@guruji
yes, see these links:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5446.msg123037#msg123037
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8731.msg233576#msg233576
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg224946#msg224946
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg224979#msg224979
rgds, Gyula
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bit excited. Ive built several diff rigs since last posting with nothing new to report... until now.
I'll post pix & vid soon but here is what I am seeing.
I can dimly light a 6.3v 0.25A bulb with no extra current draw. The motor slows but the current remains steady. The 6vsla is dropping about .02/hour. The current rig is a bit of a Frankenstein from me mucking about with various coil configs. I believe I'll now be able to get similar results from simpler configs.
My current rotor is using 2 x 32mm disc neos which I have glued to a fan housing then bolted to a hdd rotor. I have kept the drive coil from the hdd rotor and have wired the 2 furthermost pins to a bulb. This is my generator. I haven't yet worked out power output. Im hoping that Im on to something.
Once again reed tuning has been the key to getting optimum speed to power consumtion. Ive tried collapsing the coil over a bridge & charged a cap up. I want to work on a self runner. Any ideas how I get this power back into the battery are greatly appreciated. :)
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Hi Jimboot,
The simplest solution maybe using a reed switch which connects your charged up capacitor to the battery (say the negative cap pole is directly connected to the 6V run battery negative pole and the reed switch connects the positive cap pole to the pos battery pole in the moments when the battery is not loaded by the motor current). Bedini uses more elaborate means to handle higher charging currents, as it turns out from his patents.
You would arrange your gen coils to produce at least 9-10V DC voltage in the capacitor via the full wave bridge, this should be fed into the 6V run battery via the switch, then the capacitor would be discharged to as low as the 6V battery level and the process repeats.
I hope Augen has continued his fight with coil windings too :) :D :)
regards, Gyula
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Ok here are the pix so far. I only have one bifilar badly wound coil and another normal air coil but I will think it will perform even better once I get another 2 bifilar in series. I'm also going to setup the rotor with a 3rd mag. Not for any reason except that it seems more natural :)
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Hi Jimboot,
The simplest solution maybe using a reed switch which connects your charged up capacitor to the battery (say the negative cap pole is directly connected to the 6V run battery negative pole and the reed switch connects the positive cap pole to the pos battery pole in the moments when the battery is not loaded by the motor current). Bedini uses more elaborate means to handle higher charging currents, as it turns out from his patents.
You would arrange your gen coils to produce at least 9-10V DC voltage in the capacitor via the full wave bridge, this should be fed into the 6V run battery via the switch, then the capacitor would be discharged to as low as the 6V battery level and the process repeats.
I hope Augen has continued his fight with coil windings too :) :D :)
regards, Gyula
Thanks Gyula. Yep your discussion with him here was one of my main reasons for trying diff coil configs. I've got a cap up to 23volts so far & unlike the last time I know that this charge has enough current to light a bulb.
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Hi all. Id appreciate some feedback on this. I'll measure current tmrw but I'd love your feedback. Ossie? Are you watching? Id still like to buy you a beer! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgoonXp1WAA
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Hi all. Id appreciate some feedback on this. I'll measure current tmrw but I'd love your feedback. Ossie? Are you watching? Id still like to buy you a beer! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgoonXp1WAA
Hi, if I click on your link, it says it is a private video and I cannot see it... Possibly a youtube "feature" to play our nerves.
Gyula
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I've just blogged about this & my journey & what you lot have taught me. Thank you. http://jimboot.com/the-ossie-motor
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@gyula sorrry mate. Default setting in iMovie upload. Should be right now.
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Hi Jimboot,
Some explanation is needed wrt the video... I wonder what the black multimeter measures on the left side (Digitech type), it shows increasing values and why negative?
I assume the yellow multimeter shows your input battery voltage, right? (6.3V DC)
Your analog ampermeter shows DC input current, changes between 100mA to 130mA, right?
About the coils: you connected the air core coils in series with the handwound coils placed behind them, the handwound coils are bifilar as you wrote. Why did you position the handwound coils behind? hence further away from the rotor magnets. Did you connect the bifilar coils in series within one handwound coil too?
What is the capacitor value you use after the Schottky diode bridge? I know the gen coils are embedded in the rotor as you showed in IMG_9512.jpg above at post #563 above. Would you measure its DC resistance? Also would like to know the air coil DC resistances, I assume the handwound coils have only half an Ohm or less.
rgds, Gyula
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Ill do the other measurements tonight. The reason I hve the coils stacked is the motor runs more efficiently when I have them there :) I have no idea why. the negative on the meter I think means I have something wired backwards on the gen coil bridge/cap. I'll work it out tonight.
Im searching for a resource that tells me what the pinouts are on the hdd coil but have yet to find anything. So if anyone can point me at something that explains the hdd coil config it would be greatly appreciated. There are 4 pins and I am using 2.
The ampmeter is showing input current. the 6.3 is the SLA battery. I have only hand wound the bifilar coils. They are in series with the normal machine wound ones. Cant remember the cap value or schottkys but Ill have a look tonight & measure coil resistances and do a schematic.
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Thanks for the infos. Hopefully the negative on the meter can be 'fixed' with replacing its endings and the polarity from the bridge correctly corresponds to the capacitor polarity.
The pinouts on the hdd coil: If I see it correctly in IMG_9512.jpg you have 9 or 10 coils, right? (Normally such motors were designed as 3 phase motors, 3 coils for each phase, then it had 9 coils but with 10 coils it had 2 phases I think.)
Try to do the followings: speed up the rotor and measure the generated AC voltages with your two channel scope across both pin pairs at the same time, no bridge or load connected to any output.
You say there are 4 pins (you used 2 pins), if you measure across the two pins you already used with one of the scope channels and you measure across the other sofar unused 2 pins with your scopes other channel and compare the amplitudes. You can see any phase difference between them too. Here I assume you already know there is DC continuity between the other 2 pins too. I assume the coils are in seriesly connected between the two pins you have used and surely the rest coils are also in series between the other two pins. With an Ohm meter this could be explored if all the coil endings are accessable somehow.
If you find the generated voltage amplitudes are about equal between the two pin pairs then you may wish to connect the voltage source in series (mind the phases) and then the summed output should go to the diode bridge AC input. Probably you will find the drag on rotor RPM will double when you load the output, unfortunately.
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Thanks for the infos. Hopefully the negative on the meter can be 'fixed' with replacing its endings and the polarity from the bridge correctly corresponds to the capacitor polarity.
The pinouts on the hdd coil: If I see it correctly in IMG_9512.jpg you have 9 or 10 coils, right? (Normally such motors were designed as 3 phase motors, 3 coils for each phase, then it had 9 coils but with 10 coils it had 2 phases I think.)
Try to do the followings: speed up the rotor and measure the generated AC voltages with your two channel scope across both pin pairs at the same time, no bridge or load connected to any output.
You say there are 4 pins (you used 2 pins), if you measure across the two pins you already used with one of the scope channels and you measure across the other sofar unused 2 pins with your scopes other channel and compare the amplitudes. You can see any phase difference between them too. Here I assume you already know there is DC continuity between the other 2 pins too. I assume the coils are in seriesly connected between the two pins you have used and surely the rest coils are also in series between the other two pins. With an Ohm meter this could be explored if all the coil endings are accessable somehow.
If you find the generated voltage amplitudes are about equal between the two pin pairs then you may wish to connect the voltage source in series (mind the phases) and then the summed output should go to the diode bridge AC input. Probably you will find the drag on rotor RPM will double when you load the output, unfortunately.
Xlnt! Thanks Gyula ! The motor does slow slightly when lighting a bulb or charging a cap but there is no discernible change in current draw from the motors battery. That's the main thing that has me curious.
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Thanks Gyula.
Here is the scope shot. The 1st trace represents what I was measuring in the last vid.
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So the green trace is from one output pin pair, loaded by the diode bridge + capacitor and some load?
And the yellow trace is the unloaded output voltage from the second output pin pair of your hdd coil set, right?
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So the green trace is from one output pin pair, loaded by the diode bridge + capacitor and some load?
And the yellow trace is the unloaded output voltage from the second output pin pair of your hdd coil set, right?
Both are unloaded. Pins 1 & 4 make up the green trace & 2 & 3 are the yellow trace. I just hit the auto button to configure the scope.
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Then all you can do is to connect them in series to get their summed result, the two output amplitudes are different unfortunately. You surely cannot access the individual coil ends in the 9 or 10 core segments to check if they are surely grouped in series and brought out as a result of pin 1-4 and pin 2-3?
You can test this with DC Ohmmeter too?
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Someone might be interested in looking at my Ossie dipole. Normaly opened and normaly closed reverse polarity switchs wired in series positioned at either side of a spinning dipole, with one diode between the coil and positive pole of the primary battery. You can read more about this Ossie type dipole Reed Switch circuit idea over on the "Single magnet Bedini" thread at Energetic Forum.
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Just resurrected the ossie circuit coupled with a Rodin coil. Pretty happy with the results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibxIEFSpUDU 3mw 1600RPM
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Just resurrected the ossie circuit coupled with a Rodin coil. Pretty happy with the results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibxIEFSpUDU 3mw 1600RPM
Your videos does not show 1600RPM, its more like 160 RPM.
Just look at the wobbling shaft rod.
If it really was 1600 RPM then the wobbling would not be visible.
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Your videos does not show 1600RPM, its more like 160 RPM.
Just look at the wobbling shaft rod.
If it really was 1600 RPM then the wobbling would not be visible.
Yes there is a wobble but the frame rate of the iPhone makes it look very different. I show you on the vid the rpms. If you don't believe me I couldn't give a toss.
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Had the osier motor up 9000rpm. I don't think the reeds will switch much faster. The Rodin coil is amazing. To use so little copper and achieve such high speeds compared to what I had been doing.
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Thanks Gyula.
Here is the scope shot. The 1st trace represents what I was measuring in the last vid.
Looks like you have about 90 degrees phase shift between green and yellow measurements. Is this due to some filter function/delay somewhere in the circuit?
Vidar
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@low-q that was just me using a hdd coil as a pick up. It is purely what is coming off the coil.
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JIMMY! Last I seen of you I believe you were saying the motor was causing headaches. What made you swing to the new Christmas coil? =]
Mags
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Hey Mags! I luuuurve the xmas coil :) Marko Rodin said it would be; A great diaphragm-less speaker coil - I've confirmed that. He said it was much more efficient & a lot less copper required than conventional coils, I've confirmed that. He also said it makes a great aerial, I've confirmed. Then he also claimed the maths were the answer to anti-gravity, free energy, space travel etc - Now to work on those :D Using a simple MOSFET circuit from woopy I got my little rotor doing 11,000 RPM last night before it started to shake apart.
Weird thing is though, when I put a rodin pu coil voltage rises quickly without shorting it out with a reed. No discernible bemf but it then seems to plateau... weird. Last night MOSFET test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q0tgr_hrLY
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btw this is the scope shot with the ossie circuit.
and this is the mosfet/hall switch scope shot.
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So do the outr star branches also have affect on the field produced in the center, or could the points be shortened, maybe rounded off half way, to reduce the resistance.
What is the resistance of the coil?
Mags
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The resistance of that coil is around 8 ohms. I have at 2 ohms but it sucks more amps.
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The resistance of that coil is around 8 ohms. I have at 2 ohms but it sucks more amps.
This is otits ;D
Hi jim, did you try adding some secondaries from primaries and amplify some current there? then add them all to battery.
and i think ozone makes a good moves here.
;D
ps: oh boy i have a virus i have to jimboot my computer bye. ;D joke :D
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Heheh hopefully your jimboot was successful! So u mean secondary gen coils?
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Heheh hopefully your jimboot was successful! So u mean secondary gen coils?
Yes sir, just a wild idea
since we are inducting the primaries why not use secondaries to get some transfered energies from the near primaries?
;D
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Well im successfully charging an old flat 9v duracell. More watts in than out i'd say but I'm not sure how to do the measurement. I'm using a 12vdc sla @ 200ma charging a cap to 7v and hanging the 9v off that. running at 7200rpm. The gen coil slows the rotor marginally. I have it attached to a rectifier schottky bridge . Im not shorting out the coil. That simply stops the rotor. Would it be poss to have the charge coil dump freq match that of the pulse coil? I was thinking of taking a parrallel trigger from my hall switch to dump the charge coil.
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Here is the scope shot. The green trace is the pu coil which charges a cap quickly now to 10v. Not sure if the p2p voltage is of any significance or not.
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Here is the scope shot. The green trace is the pu coil which charges a cap quickly now to 10v. Not sure if the p2p voltage is of any significance or not.
Hi Jimboot,
If you divide the peak to peak voltage value, 20.31 by 2.82, you get about 7.2V AC RMS and after the full wave rectification the capacitor is charged to the single peak value of this RMS which is 7.2V times 1.41, i.e. 10.15V DC what you can measure. Now the measured numbers are ok because the induced voltage is sinusoidal.
Gyula
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Here is the vid, the p2p v on the pu coil gets up to 29v
Http://YouTube.com/jimboot2/
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RMS? What is the RMS watt readings?
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Vidar, who are asking on the RMS watt readings?
I ask this because simply I converted Jimboot's induced voltage measured by his scope as a peak to peak voltage amplitude and he wrote he was not sure if the p2p voltage was of any significance or not. I simply converted the peak to peak voltage value to RMS voltage value that is all.
The significance of the output voltage manifests when a load is connected across the output and how it relates to the consumed input power then.
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You guys seen these motors john Hutchinson has fromi military surplus? They'd turn my osier motor ou not a problem. They seem to have very little resistance when he turns them by hand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX25yvRMiyY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Vidar, who are asking on the RMS watt readings?
I ask this because simply I converted Jimboot's induced voltage measured by his scope as a peak to peak voltage amplitude and he wrote he was not sure if the p2p voltage was of any significance or not. I simply converted the peak to peak voltage value to RMS voltage value that is all.
The significance of the output voltage manifests when a load is connected across the output and how it relates to the consumed input power then.
Yes, you're right. A load is important to make any conclusions. RMS readings will however tell more about the actual average voltage. In the 230 or 115V AC grid, there is a peak of 325 or 163V, but the effective voltage is 230 or 115V. If you have a voltage peak at 100V, lasting for 1mS at 50Hz cycle, you have an RMS voltage of only 5V. Lets say you have a peak of 10 amps too on the load. The peak will read 1kW, but the RMS readings will be only 1W. So I guess it IS important to consider the RMS readings too. Also phase relationship between current and voltage in a reactive load (Containing capacitors, and inductors) will be an important factor also.
Vidar
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Have you guys tried using a cap pulser circuit with the rodin coil design with lower resistance coils? My thinking is get the resistance as low as possible and burst pulse the coil to get a stronger effect through the lower resistance coils. This way you get maximum effect of the field and no direct short of the source supply. The lower the resistance the more intense the field will be.
jbignes5
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Dear Ossie, Jimboot and All:
Please forgive my basic questions I am new to this material. I have been following the development of the "ossie motor" since the original paper and set up by Ossie on through the builds by JLN and Jimboot. My questions:
1)Am I correct in assuming that the in Ossie's build of March 21 2010, build charges the batteries when the reed switches cut current to the coils and the coils release their voltage spike?
2)What is the purpose of the rotor with magnets given that the coils receive their charge from the batteries? That is to say a moving magnetic field near the coils is not needed to charge them.
Thank you for your time in answering my basic questions.
Pablo
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBT3PRCubk0
Building this for a pulse motor build off with Russ gries. Rpms up to 4600 rpm now and voltage up 500mv this thing does my head in :)
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Rims over 4700, volstge up will get scope shots tmrw
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RPMs this morning had risen to over 5000 with a continual run of 14 hours. Battery voltage looked to have slightly increased. I'm hoping it hasn't shaken itself apart by the time I get home tonight.
:P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maUJP3nz3xw&feature=plcp
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Over 24 hours running time RPMs over 6100 battery voltage dropped back to 12v but has started rising again.
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Don't if anyone is still watching this thread but check out this great replication by Russ gries using starship coils http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCriICVZqXM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Hey Jim
That as a neat looking motor in the vid. Where is this contest?
How is your motor running?
Mags
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Mags,
http://rwgresearch.com/
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Hey Jim
That as a neat looking motor in the vid. Where is this contest?
How is your motor running?
Mags
What the plaster said. Runs for ages on a super cap. Ran for 48 hours at 6300 rpm on 12v 5ma . Reeds begin to stick after a while though at those Rpms. Russ isn't your trick of polarizing the reeds in that vid. My latest vids on the ossie above.
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Woohoo! I won the build off.. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPj-evISjg4&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPj-evISjg4&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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Great Job Jim! ;]
Mags
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Thanks Mags, it was the polarising of the reeds that made the difference! ;D
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Congrats! Jim ;) What prize did you choose?
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Congrats! Jim ;) What prize did you choose?
I went for the solar panels.
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Hi, Can anyone tell me what is the best site to explain how to make ossie motor? :-*
Thank you from JAPAN Fukushima. :-*
Regards,
KJP
:D
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Hi, Can anyone tell me what is the best site to explain how to make ossie motor? :-*
Thank you from JAPAN Fukushima. :-*
Regards,
KJP
:D
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm
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In case someone wants a really low power motor, the Ossie Motor is not the only way to go.
I managed to build a simple pulse motor which ran on about 6 mW. With a better mechanical set up, it would run on even less (better balanced wheel, better bearings).
Coils from relays with a very thin wire and many windings (DC resistance of the coils is about 286 Ohm) did the trick. Of course, the motor has very little torque. Please note, that I did not need a reed switch, I used a pair of very reliable trigger coils instead. All coils are of the same type.
See my video of the motor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEjlYvZ5OM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEjlYvZ5OM) (sorry for the annoying music, stop the video to see details for a longer time) and attached find the schematics.
Greetings, Conrad
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Anyone can help to get a file from
http://www.savefile.com/files/3698316
?
This is old post from Ossie, but I can not get it.
Thank you for your help
KJP
********************************
Greetings all,
For all those working on Bedini stuff, please see my SSG motor circuit modification here:
http://www.savefile.com/files/3698316
Regards,
Ossie Callanan