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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944449 times)

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1470 on: April 07, 2016, 11:32:51 AM »
Yeah, the dc coil thing seems like a cunundrum.  Was reading a book on electric motors by Irving Gotleib. May not have spelled that right. But one thing he said was with motors and gens, there are 3 requirements.  Electricity, AC and ;)  or DC, magnetic fields, and the third is motion.  Missing any of the 3 and its not a motor or a gen. Could get into static electric field motors, and the mag fields are there, whether they play a magnetic push and pull could be the reason there is attraction and repulsion between HV charged leafs and other plates and things, like Lasersabers electric field motors, is something that may be a miss. ???

So  if we look at the field of a coil with dc on it, other than producing  the 'stationary' field, it is doing no work, unless say it were to be picking up things or clamping something to a wall, but thats totally something else. We are talking motor/gen action.  Also the reverse, if a magnet is stationary near a coil, and no motion, then no current. 
I know you know all this stuff, but it helps for readers that dont have that understanding. ;) Ive thought the same things as you on that subject. Weird stuff when you try to think deep into it. :o ;D

Mags

The biggest mixup comes when some use AC and DC to describe voltage,and not current. Then there are those that think a direct current means a continuous current without amplitude change.
They see a current wave form in the shape of a sine wave,and think the current is AC,when in fact,the direction of current remains the same,but where only the amplitude of that current changes.

Brad

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1471 on: April 07, 2016, 11:43:08 AM »
I don't know if the quote above is due to your complete and total lack of critical thinking skills and total blindness to any kind of context, or, if it is just more completely useless trash talk.

Either way, it is a total fail.

Lol
No fail on my behalf MH.
Do you even read what you post?.

Quote
You did not find a link stating that resonance in the combustion chamber was a benefit like you said you would.

And here is what i said--what you quoted me as saying
I will dig up some more info for you ASAP.
Like I said, there is truth in what you say about unwanted resonance. But that truth also dismisses your claim about there being no resonance what so ever within the internals of the ICE ir self.
They use information gathered around these resonant effect to increase the efficiency of the ICE.


Where exactly did i state that resonance in a combustion chamber would be beneficial ?.
That's right--nowhere.
Like i said,you need to read a little better.
Here is what my statement said- there is truth in what you say about unwanted resonance
They use information gathered around these resonant effect to increase the efficiency of the ICE
Is it that hard to understand MH?. If they find an unwanted resonance,they reshape the internal's(in this case ,the piston) to remove that unwanted resonance,and increase the efficiency of the engine.
So,once again you failed to catch me out-as you continually do.
It is clear that i said nothing about this internal resonance increasing the engines efficiency--like you have tried to claim.

So another fail on your behalf MH.
You tried once again to say i said things i did not,and you once again got caught out.
This is becoming a habit with you.

Brad

minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1472 on: April 07, 2016, 11:45:44 AM »



   tinman,
           what do you think of Einstein?
 An Einstein Cross must have some merit?
          John.

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1473 on: April 07, 2016, 11:54:04 AM »


tinman,
       would you agree with Koala's point about a super-conductor?
                   John.

To which point are you referring to?.


Brad

minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1474 on: April 07, 2016, 01:03:51 PM »
Now you are getting it. In the DC case, the magnetic field is set up while the current is changing during the "switch on" time of the current. Once the current is flowing at a steady rate, it "costs" nothing more to maintain the magnetic field, and the field itself doesn't dissipate power. This is how superconducting magnets work. The situation is perfectly symmetrical. You get no current produced from a stationary magnet sitting next to a coil, because there is nothing changing. Move the magnet (or the coil), so that the coil experiences a changing magnetic field, and you get current.  Remember Faraday's Law of Induction (and pay no attention to the confused ravings of EMJunkie): The induced EMF is proportional to the _time rate of change_ of the linked magnetic field. You can take this algebraic equation and re-arrange it according to ordinary algebra, and see that the two situations are indeed symmetrical. The "conundrum" comes from mis-stating the problem or situation in the first place.

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1475 on: April 07, 2016, 02:55:35 PM »
 author=minnie link=topic=8341.msg479726#msg479726 date=1460027031]



Quote
Once the current is flowing at a steady rate, it "costs" nothing more to maintain the magnetic field, and the field itself doesn't dissipate power.

The cost of maintaining the magnetic field,is the flow of current through the coil--no current flow,no magnetic field.
So we have a steady flow of current,and that gives rise to a stable magnetic field--nothing is changing,nor needs to change in order to maintain the magnetic field. But if we have a stable magnetic field around a coil,that dose not create a steady current flow. Current needs no change in time to create the magnetic field,but the magnetic field needs to change in time to create current--or dose it?.
We could also say that the hot air in a balloon creates lift,but lift dose not create hot air :D

Quote
This is how superconducting magnets work.

Superconducting magnets also require outside energy to exist,and this outside energy is in the form of super cooling the conductor. As the conductor draws in energy from the environment(heat),then it slowly looses it's superconductivity.
So energy was needed to create the superconductive state,as energy is needed to create a steady magnetic field around a coil.
No one has been able to prove that the magnetic field takes no energy to maintain,as you cannot have a current flow through a conductor without an associated magnetic field.

Quote
The situation is perfectly symmetrical. You get no current produced from a stationary magnet sitting next to a coil, because there is nothing changing.

The same could be said for the current flowing through the coil-as stated above. What is changing in time within that coil that gives rise to a stable magnetic field?.

A magnetic field changing in time is not what creates current flow. Current flow is created by the motion of the Electrons, Ions,or photons. We can prove this by looking at the simple homopolar generator,where current flows due to motion of the electrons in the conductor,as the magnetic field dose not change in time in regards to the conductor. If the conductor has no motion,then there is no current flow. We also know that reversing the direction of motion,also reverses the direction of current flow. We can have the magnets fixed to the conductor,so as they rotate with the conductor,or have them fixed to the carrier(frame),so as they do not move with the conductor,and nothing changes.

If the flow of current is needed to create a magnetic field around a coil,then current must be flowing within a permanent magnet. Energy is dissipated by the electromagnet's coil due to this current flow,and so energy must be dissipated by the permanent magnet.

Most just say--well the magnetic domains are now aligned,and so we have a PM. But hardly no one ask's- what is the energy that is maintaining that alignment-what is actually going on with each electron within the atoms of that magnetic material ?.

The biggest problem here ,is that most have just settled for the good old !Faradays law of induction-a theory pieced together as the result of confusion--why one,and not the other?
Well,as they dont yet know what the magnetic force is,then Faraday's law of induction will do for the time being--as we have no other answer.
This is what people have settled on. We now know how to create and use the magnetic field,so why bother finding out what it actually is? :D

Quote
Move the magnet (or the coil), so that the coil experiences a changing magnetic field, and you get current.  Remember Faraday's Law of Induction (and pay no attention to the confused ravings of EMJunkie):

Like i stated above-neither the magnetic field or the conductor have to move in relation to each other for there to be current flow-there only has to be motion and a fixed reference point,but the magnetic field and the conductor may travel together where there is no change in time between the two-the homopolar generator ;)

The holy grail is finding out what the magnetic force is--what is that magnetic field?.

The very same happened when we figured out what light was-like sun light. We then learned how to use these photons to knock electrons out of the park,and create a current flow-the solar panel.
Now,can you imagine what will happen when we find out what is flowing in this field that surrounds a permanent magnet,and then we find our magnetic field !solar panel!.

We know there is a magnetic force-we use it all the time.
We also know that force is -Quote: strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement.

So something is in motion in the magnetic field of the permanent magnet--we just have to work out what it is.


Brad

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1476 on: April 07, 2016, 03:20:30 PM »
As an addendum to post 1517 on resonance in an ICE being mostly a negative issue

Johan has posted this before regarding the Resonant secrets of 2 stroke normally aspirated engines

  in 1961 the resonant 2 stroke secrets were taken from the German team in motorcycle racing and traded to Japan's Suzuki for freedom
[from behind the iron curtain]
prior to that time the 200 HP per liter barrier for normally aspirated engines had not yet been reached .
todays 2 stroke normally aspirated resonant engine builders are over 1HP for every 2CC's of displacement ..
and climbing.

the power band on 2 strokes has been small ...but there is something very special that goes on when you create a HUGE
STANDING WAVE
between the tip of the inlet and out the back of the exhaust [yes the wave reaches past the exhaust]

Johan Quote

A high Tuned 2-stroke, is Resonant in every single Cavity, and on the 'Power-band' or 'On the Pipe' it Resonate's between the serie fluide Resonant cavity's, this last also like I described in my first explanation.

The Reed / I-disc, is a Fet, the Crankshaft case and Cylinder is a ................ ?

Why is a 4-stroke far over 100 degrees Celsius, and a optimum 2-stroke only 55-60 degrees Celsius with a exhaust over 250 degrees Celsius?

end quote

this Huge standing Wave has an effect which defies change in some way ,I have heard others refer to things happening in the circuit which don't make sense once the wave manifests

like self tuning and maintaining the standing wave regardless of input or output [or load]

member Chesnyt mentioned this recently in his water cell discovery and another builder has alluded to this "anomaly"
in his unique electric motor builds .. for years now.

there is only one way to maintain a standing wave.

resonance

@Miles when it comes to "all things resonant"
never assume you know it all....

or insult others due to your own ignorance on the topic!

you have a Propensity towards this and assume all to often "You Know it all" and correct and embarrass others when you should not .













MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1477 on: April 07, 2016, 03:51:33 PM »
Chet:

Quote
Miles when it comes to "all things resonant"
never assume you know it all....

Don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

Put up a mechanical schematic and timing diagram and explain the "huge standing wave" because without it it appears to just be talk.  I am willing to learn but with just talk it could just be your resonance fetish bias rendering you all dreamy eyed.

MileHigh

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1478 on: April 07, 2016, 03:55:50 PM »
Miles
 
AS Johan has said
The breast is no longer available to you .....











MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1479 on: April 07, 2016, 03:56:42 PM »
Brad:

Quote
If the flow of current is needed to create a magnetic field around a coil,then current must be flowing within a permanent magnet. Energy is dissipated by the electromagnet's coil due to this current flow,and so energy must be dissipated by the permanent magnet.

You are just proudly demonstrating your ignorance and willingness to invent your own Bizarro logic.  Energy is not being dissipated by a permanent magnet.  But don't let that fact stop you.  You are the infallible Dr. Brainfry and what Brainfry says goes.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1480 on: April 07, 2016, 03:58:32 PM »
Chet you are not even at the table, you are calling some new fake-ass nutcase that wants to suck money from gullible people.

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1481 on: April 07, 2016, 03:59:52 PM »
@ MH

As requested.

Quote
The invention relates to a piston for a cylinder of a two-stroke internal combustion engine.The air within the cavity is caused to resonate at high frequency, thereby enhancing the combustion process

https://www.google.ch/patents/US4969425

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1482 on: April 07, 2016, 04:05:15 PM »
Miles
#We are going to discuss your Libel of me in great detail elsewhere .[and you will take that to the Bank]

here however we stick to yet another ignorant remark of yours regarding magnets and what they are truly capable of.

see the 11 minute mark and beyond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PS2v1kN1U8

you place yourself here as the Urim and Thummim of all that your purvey.

Shame on you....


tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1483 on: April 07, 2016, 04:25:46 PM »
Chet:

Don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

Put up a mechanical schematic and timing diagram and explain the "huge standing wave" because without it it appears to just be talk.  I am willing to learn but with just talk it could just be your resonance fetish bias rendering you all dreamy eyed.

MileHigh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumetric_efficiency

http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf

http://3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/chamberdesign/2003exhaust.pdf

http://www.xplorer.co.za/articles/exhaust.htm

http://people.eng.unimelb.edu.au/imarusic/proceedings/6/JonesBrown.pdf

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/Intake_exhaust.html

And the list go's on and on and on.
If you cant learn from this MH,then there is no hope for you.


Brad

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1484 on: April 07, 2016, 04:31:09 PM »
Brad:

You are just proudly demonstrating your ignorance and willingness to invent your own Bizarro logic.  Energy is not being dissipated by a permanent magnet.  But don't let that fact stop you.  You are the infallible Dr. Brainfry and what Brainfry says goes.

MileHigh

Shows how stupid you are.
Here you are,trying to justify your claim,and yet you have no idea as to what it is you are dealing with--you dont know what the magnetic force is,and so you cannot make the judgement you just tried to make.
You walk up your own garden path blindly,making claims you cannot back up.
But this is nothing new from you,as you do it all the time--so many claim's,and not an experiment to be seen from you on this entire forum of thread's.

You are a phony -pure and simple,and you do not belong here,as this is a place for experimenters-not procrastinators.

Brad.