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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 947610 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1410 on: April 05, 2016, 07:08:40 AM »
As you wish: :)

A circuit which is able to boost ultra low voltage to a
level sufficient to switch a MOSFET which permits
efficient boosting of millivolt level source voltage
to several volts as desired.

The initiating oscillator for priming boost is a
JFET switch.

Thanks, and I made a mistake an assumed that a JFET required some Gate-Source voltage to be ON, when that is not the case.  So I retract my statement to Brad in post #1450 about it "not making any sense at all" because clearly I was wrong.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1411 on: April 05, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
Yeah well I would have to say that that doesn't make any sense at all.  But don't let that stop you since this whole thread is filled with nonsensical statements by you and just about nobody says anything about it.

Again MH?

You are saying !once again! that my statement is nonsensical--and once again you are wrong.
You need to stop MH,and do some research of your own before accusing me of making nonsensical statement's-->which are not.

Brad

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1412 on: April 05, 2016, 03:58:31 PM »
Again MH?

You are saying !once again! that my statement is nonsensical--and once again you are wrong.
You need to stop MH,and do some research of your own before accusing me of making nonsensical statement's-->which are not.

Brad

I was wrong about this one, but it still doesn't belie the fact that you have made tons of statements that are nonsensical.   Meanwhile PW discussed how in many cases the frequency setting on your function generator is not relevant when looking at how a circuit responds, it's the frequency content in the waveform that counts.  You didn't acknowledge that and I wonder if you might be ignoring that because you "can't see it on your bench."  I have to have discussed this same issue with you in the past but obviously it didn't stick.  If you were wise and you are indeed ignoring what PW said, then you should go back and try to understand what he is saying because it is extremely important.

minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1413 on: April 05, 2016, 05:49:09 PM »



   MileHigh,
          the Wiki thingy on Fourier is very good, I can remember that the Junkie
 chose to ignore it too!
               John.

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1414 on: April 06, 2016, 01:39:46 AM »
I was wrong about this one, but it still doesn't belie the fact that you have made tons of statements that are nonsensical.   Meanwhile PW discussed how in many cases the frequency setting on your function generator is not relevant when looking at how a circuit responds, it's the frequency content in the waveform that counts.  You didn't acknowledge that and I wonder if you might be ignoring that because you "can't see it on your bench."  I have to have discussed this same issue with you in the past but obviously it didn't stick.  If you were wise and you are indeed ignoring what PW said, then you should go back and try to understand what he is saying because it is extremely important.

Lets get something straight MH.
So far,you have been the one that has been incorrect,and i have been the one that has proven that you have been incorrect--resonant systems in and around ICE's,whether good or bad,they are there.

As far as frequency content (noise) go's,it has nothing to do with the frequency the circuit is running at,and to introduce such,is only adding to confusion that need not be there.
When we are talking about frequency,it is the frequency that the device is running at,or the signal it receives from the FG. If we rectify the output,then the frequency of the output will match that of the running or provided frequency--not the noise that exist within that frequency.

If my scope read's the same frequency as what is supplied by the FG,then that is the operating frequency of the device,and when we use these force switching method's in stead of running at a resonant frequency,then once again,noise that ride's on the back of this frequency has little to nothing to do with the way the circuit operates.

I chose to ignor it,because it has little to no impact to what we are doing here,and if you claim it dose-along with PW,then please feel free to show it.


Brad

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1415 on: April 06, 2016, 03:19:00 AM »
As far as frequency content (noise) go's,it has nothing to do with the frequency the circuit is running at,and to introduce such,is only adding to confusion that need not be there.
When we are talking about frequency,it is the frequency that the device is running at,or the signal it receives from the FG. If we rectify the output,then the frequency of the output will match that of the running or provided frequency--not the noise that exist within that frequency.

If my scope read's the same frequency as what is supplied by the FG,then that is the operating frequency of the device,and when we use these force switching method's in stead of running at a resonant frequency,then once again,noise that ride's on the back of this frequency has little to nothing to do with the way the circuit operates.

I chose to ignor it,because it has little to no impact to what we are doing here,and if you claim it dose-along with PW,then please feel free to show it.


Brad

Everything stated above could not be further from the truth.  It is very obvious that you do not get "it', and "it" is a very important and fundamental concept.  We are not discussing "noise"...

Your digital scope has a FFT mode to allow you to see the frequency content of a waveform (frequency domain), yet you apparently have not bothered to use it even as a learning tool (as I have suggested many times). 

When you are looking at your FG's output on your scope and you have the FG set to produce a 1KHz sine wave, both the FG and scope tell you it is 1KHz.  If you switch to a square wave, your FG and scope continue to say you are dealing with a 1Khz waveform.  But, it is obvious there is something very different because the sine wave now looks like a square wave.  The difference is that the square wave has had many harmonic frequencies (additional sine waves) added to the 1KHz sine wave (fundamental) to produce the waveshape you see as a square wave.

Read my previous post again, look at the Wiki reference (particularly the animated gif link) and try using your scope in its frequency domain mode (FFT).

PW

EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1416 on: April 06, 2016, 03:46:26 AM »


You Blokes will still be arguing in a 100 Years...

PW is correct and Tinman is Correct, each from their own points of View...

PW is talking Total Wave Content, Tinman is not. Tinman is talking Fundamental Wave.

If memory serves, Sine is all Even Harmonics, Square Wave is Odd Harmonics and Triangle is all Harmonics. All Waves have a tone of real wave content that is either side Fundamental.

#59: Basics of a Square Wave signal's harmonic content

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

P.S: You guys should really be working toward a common goal and not bickering over such thigns. After all, its just each others point of view. why not agree to dissagree?

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1417 on: April 06, 2016, 04:08:41 AM »
Chris:

You are just "injecting noise" into the discussion and your posting should be completely ignored.  PW is dead-on 100% correct and Brad should undertake to learn and understand this fundamental concept.

MileHigh

poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1418 on: April 06, 2016, 04:13:24 AM »
But i am a little confused about this turn off time,as the 1n4007 data sheet's all show a test frequency of 1MHz,
Indeed, but for what test is this 1MHz used for? The other test condition is a reverse voltage of 4V. Why would they do that? Why, to test CT of course.

Quote
while here i was using only 10KHz. If it is suited to frequencies of 1MHz,then how can it not switch off fast enough for 10KHz ?.

Brad
Any assumption that the 1N4007 is suited for use at 1MHz is incorrect. It is a line frequency device. If you want a faster version, try the UF4007. It has only a slightly lower capacitance under the same test conditions, but its Trr is much faster.

As PW is saying, the frequency has little to do with how fast a device can switch. The real question is how fast can the device switch at the transition points? A 1N4007 with a 10Hz square wave (but with 10ns rise and fall times) is still not going to switch very fast from ON to OFF and back to ON, because it is limited by its own finite switching speed. Relative to the period of a 10Hz square wave, yes the 1N4007 will switch pretty fast, but relative to the rise and fall times at the transition points of this same 10Hz square wave, its switching time is comparatively slow.

The frequency will eventually catch up and become the limiting factor for all switching devices. If for eg, a diode requires 2us to recover (Trr), then the maximum frequency one should expect for it to fully switch would be about 250kHz (50% duty), but you are not going to see a nice square wave on its output; it will be somewhat sinusoidal.

The again, what do I know, and why am I posting?  :-X

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1419 on: April 06, 2016, 04:22:04 AM »
Tinman was not correct...

His LED was being driven by the higher frequencies contained in his waveform well in excess of the 10KHz indicated on his scope.   

A pure "sine wave" contains no harmonics.  If it contains harmonics (as in distortion, THD, etc) then it is no longer just a sine wave and its shape will deviate (distort) from that of a pure sine.

A triangle wave, like a square wave, contains ODD harmonics, just as is indicated by the frequency domain plot EMJ posted (note there are no even harmonics displayed).  The difference being that the amplitude of the higher frequency harmonics are rolled off in the triangle wave.

PW

EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1420 on: April 06, 2016, 04:28:32 AM »
Chris:

You are just "injecting noise" into the discussion and your posting should be completely ignored.  PW is dead-on 100% correct and Brad should undertake to learn and understand this fundamental concept.

MileHigh



The only Noise around here is you MileHigh - Looks like you can not read as well?

Most everyone here has learnt fo filter your non-sense out however. Its a new type of filter, called a MilleHehehehe Filter!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org



picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1421 on: April 06, 2016, 04:45:47 AM »
Just a bit more on the subject:

Let's say we build a very narrow bandpass filter circuit that only passes 900Hz with very steep rejection of frequencies that are above or below that 900Hz.  Using our function generator (FG), we input a 100Hz sine wave to that filter and note that there is little if any signal passing thru to the output (it is, afterall, a very narrow 900Hz bandpass filter).

Without changing the frequency setting on the FG, we switch to a triangle wave like in EMJ's post above (still at 100Hz).  Now when we look at the filter's output, we see a significant amount of signal passing thru the narrow 900Hz bandpass filter.

How can that be, the FG (and the scope) continue to say 100Hz?  The answer is that we have changed the frequency content of the waveform by adding a bunch of odd harmonics, just as is indicated by the frequency domain display EMJ posted above.

These are very real harmonics, not just abstract concepts or "noise"...

PW

EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1422 on: April 06, 2016, 04:46:19 AM »
Tinman was not correct...

His LED was being driven by the higher frequencies contained in his waveform well in excess of the 10KHz indicated on his scope.   

A pure "sine wave" contains no harmonics.  If it contains harmonics (as in distortion, THD, etc) then it is no longer just a sine wave and its shape will deviate (distort) from that of a pure sine.

A triangle wave, like a square wave, contains ODD harmonics, just as is indicated by the frequency domain plot EMJ posted (note there are no even harmonics displayed).  The difference being that the amplitude of the higher frequency harmonics are rolled off in the triangle wave.

PW



PW - Thanks for correcting me!

Quote from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave

...sine waves are representations of a single frequency with no harmonics



I must have had the Triangle and Square mixed with the Square and Sine.


Like you say, Sine waves do have Harmonics, but result in a distortion:


   Chris Sykes
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MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1423 on: April 06, 2016, 04:56:59 AM »
Quote
Like you say, Sine waves do have Harmonics, but result in a distortion:

No, read PW's posting again.  Sine waves do not have harmonics.  A slightly distorted sine wave is by definition a fundamental sine wave plus some added harmonics.

You can go from the time domain to the frequency domain and then back to the time domain.  It's a very important concept.  I am pretty sure that's how they developed the algorithm for mp3 audio compression.  They take the audio time domain waveform and convert it into the frequency domain.  This is a much more efficient way of representing a waveform.  Then they compress the data associated with the frequency domain to give you a very efficient compression scheme.  Then when an mp3 is played back, the reverse is done.  The compressed frequency domain information is decompressed and then converted back to the time domain.

It's also the basis for a lot of image compression algorithms also.  That's why sometimes in a heavily compressed image you see "ripples" around small objects that are high-contrast relative to the background.  The "ripples" are waves - compression artifacts from a heavily compressed image where the compression algorithm primarily operates in the frequency domain.

EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1424 on: April 06, 2016, 05:06:04 AM »
No, read PW's posting again, sine waves do not have harmonics.  A slightly distorted sine wave is by definition a fundamental sine wave plus some added harmonics.


Millehehehehe - Old Mate...

I think Reading is not one of your strong points? I quote again:


A pure "sine wave" contains no harmonics.  If it contains harmonics (as in distortion, THD, etc) then it is no longer just a sine wave and its shape will deviate (distort) from that of a pure sine.


I really dont see this as hard to understand, it is certianly not any deviation from what I have already said in my posts and already clearly quoted!!!


   Chris Sykes
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