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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944451 times)

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1365 on: April 02, 2016, 08:51:08 PM »

The more efficient your ICE is,the less emissions you have.


That statement is for the most part not true.  Particularly with regard to NOx  emissions. 

Very often efficiency and emission reduction are at complete odds with each other.

PW

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1366 on: April 02, 2016, 09:05:27 PM »
@picowatt

I understand very well the present beliefs. This explanation has been used so many times but under any logic base it does not correlate. It is very common and normal since you guys do not have any higher level of logic to base it on so of course this is all you have to go by. I respect that and appreciate you bringing it forth so it does not come from me. But deep down, you cannot really expect that hot current is coming in from every half cycle via the ground and neutral.

Throughout most of the USA it does not.  The neutral is a separate wire all the way back to the pole transformer.  The Earth is not used as a current conductor. 

However, in countries that use SWER, AC current does actually flow thru the Earth, and does indeed reverse every half cycle.  It is very easily measured with common instruments. 

Turn your car's headlights on.  Attach one side of your cars battery to Earth.  Did anything change?  Did that prove anything?  The AC distribution system used in the US is no different, it just happens to be connected to Earth. 

Perhaps you should consider that it is your logic that is flawed...

PW

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1367 on: April 02, 2016, 10:13:06 PM »
Throughout most of the USA it does not.  The neutral is a separate wire all the way back to the pole transformer.  The Earth is not used as a current conductor. 

However, in countries that use SWER, AC current does actually flow thru the Earth, and does indeed reverse every half cycle.  It is very easily measured with common instruments. 

Turn your car's headlights on.  Attach one side of your cars battery to Earth.  Did anything change?  Did that prove anything?  The AC distribution system used in the US is no different, it just happens to be connected to Earth. 

Perhaps you should consider that it is your logic that is flawed...

PW

Here in the USA the neutral wires and ground wires of home wiring are all tied to the same bus inside the breaker box.  So, effectively, they are wired together.

Bill

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1368 on: April 02, 2016, 10:18:54 PM »
Nope. Mine was a slide valve setup--one rod,and two gears--thats it.
You make the slide and seats from the same material that the valves and seats are made from.
The counter weight fitted to the drive gear is the same weight as the slide rail,and so maintains balance.

The more efficient your ICE is,the less emissions you have.
Take a more efficient valve train(such as mine),where it takes less energy to drive the valve train it self. That means less fuel used for the same amount of mechanical power going to the wheels.
Less fuel= less emissions to do the same job.

They may be improving in emissions output,but they are not to interested in efficiency--there all in cohorts with big oil,and regulated by the government.
I seen it happen first hand here in Western Australia with Ralphs orbital engine.Designed and built just 160km up the road from me. This ICE was 50% smaller than any other ICE for the same power output,and 35-50% more efficient. Ralphs biggest mistake was taking on BHP as a partner,who finally got Ralph to sell up to them,and then BHP shelved the project :D

Ralph is now into large realestate deals,and worth over 700 million.
He also still makes great amounts of cash from his fuel injection systems that are fitted to most 2 stroke outboard motors today.

Any car maker that waffles on about how fuel efficient there cars are--are full of shit.
Guys in there back yard workshops were killing todays fuel efficiency 50 years ago.

It's all about money,and there all filling each others pockets--not ours.


Brad

My argument against all of these expensive "hybrid" cars is that they are bragging about getting only 40 mpg.  Of course, you have to replace a $5,000 battery every 3 or 4 years which they never factor in.

Well, 3 of my friends owned 1980 Volkswagen Diesel Rabbits which easily got over 55 mpg.  That was back in 1980 and no need for fancy battery exchanges or expensive super high tech components.  Then, I learned that VW now makes newer versions of these that get over 70 mpg but, they are not allowed to be imported to the US.  Total Crap that they do this shit and we let them.

Bill

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1369 on: April 02, 2016, 10:24:00 PM »
Here in the USA the neutral wires and ground wires of home wiring are all tied to the same bus inside the breaker box.  So, effectively, they are wired together.

Bill

Just as I have stated several times.  However, the neutral returns to the transformer center tap via a dedicated wire, not thru the Earth. 

SWER systems in other countries (and parts of Alaska) do use the Earth as a current carrying conductor.

Neither system disproves the existence of electrons...

PW

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1370 on: April 02, 2016, 11:23:58 PM »
Just as I have stated several times.  However, the neutral returns to the transformer center tap via a dedicated wire, not thru the Earth. 

SWER systems in other countries (and parts of Alaska) do use the Earth as a current carrying conductor.

Neither system disproves the existence of electrons...

PW

Sorry, must have missed where you said that.  Yes, of course it does return to the transformer via wire and not the earth.

However, I did read somewhere that the power companies laugh at us because the earth grounds send the energy back to the power plant where they can sell it to us again...being ac.  This made no sense to me but, I am more familiar with dc than I am ac.

Bill

TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1371 on: April 02, 2016, 11:50:19 PM »
Having the channel labels immediately to the right of the zero reference marks on the left side of the scope's screen is not that handy either.  It's hard for these old eyes to tell exactly where the zero line is...  but you do appear to be lined up with a major division.


Yes, always (or at least whenever possible). You know I don't trust "numbers in boxes" much and prefer to interpret the traces, at least as a cross-check. However the Rigol DS1054z is rather notorious for having some offset on the traces. But comparing the trace value before, and after, the positive pulse seems to indicate the 4mA reading is at least close to accurate.

Quote

When the waveform is at -6 volts, the three diodes should turn on and conduct with a total of around 1.8-2.1 volts of drop thru all three.

I would think that the remaining 4 volts or so thru the 1K resistor should end up with around 4ma flowing during the negative portion of the applied waveform prior to the rising edge.

PW

TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1372 on: April 02, 2016, 11:58:01 PM »
@ TK

phototransistor is more accurate, if you can place it in a good spot.
I don't trust PV's for light measurements,
they are consistently inconsistent :)
I agree.

Quote

luckily for us, both components can be found in many garden solar lights.
along side a superbright, and a charging circuit.
  [note: some Chinese companies hide the charging circuit inside a small black dot of epoxy resin]
          [ it is basically a two or four diode rectifier and sometimes a resistor, that feeds to the battery]

Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, more of a boost regulator circuit. There are a couple of different 4-lead ICs that are used, as well as the "cob" (chip-on-board) black dot kind.

I have taken apart many of those solar-powered garden lights of many different kinds, and I have yet to find a phototransistor in one. They commonly use a CdS light-dependent resistor (aka LDR or photoresistor) when a separate sensor is used.

YMMV, of course...

Quote

There recently began emerging some fancy cells, that have the sensing unit built into the cell, where you can't even see it, or remove it as a separate piece. From the same Chinese companies....
It seems they don't want us taking them apart and using it for other things....

Actually the "sensorless" circuit just uses the light level falling on the photovoltaic cell itself, there is no separate or hidden sensor in those.

TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1373 on: April 03, 2016, 12:11:45 AM »
(snip)

@TK

"FG isolated". Is this via a car battery and inverter running the FG or is the FG output simply going to an isolation transformer?

wattsup
Neither. This FG (MingHo MHS200A) is powered by a wall-wart SMPS with two prongs, so it's not connected to the mains ground wire. Neither the Black (BNC shield) nor Red outputs are connected to the ground. So unless I establish a connection by patching the second channel to the scope or something like that, both outputs are floating. In the present case of course the Black FG lead is connected through the 1R0 current-sense resistor to the scope ground reference. The important point is that the 1R0 isn't shorted out by the connection, since the FG is floating.

TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1374 on: April 03, 2016, 12:16:27 AM »
TK

Now remove the 1k resistor,and try again.

Brad

Now we get into the meat of the matter.   ;)

When the 1K resistor across the LED is removed, the LED goes out.

But when I replace the resistor with a 2.2 uH inductor (DC resistance about 0.8 ohm) , the LED comes back on.

SeaMonkey

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1375 on: April 03, 2016, 01:51:57 AM »
Quote from: picoWatt
That statement is for the most part not true.  Particularly with regard to NOx  emissions. 

Very often efficiency and emission reduction are at complete odds with each other.

Oxidized Nitrogen by-products are the result of
very high temperature combustion.  The techniques
for reducing combustion temperature while at the
same time increasing gaseous reaction volume are
well known.  It is possible to eliminate NOx, reduce CO,
reduce fuel consumption and thereby enhance engine
power and efficiency quite easily.  Aviation has been
doing it for decades.  Savvy motorists have also been
doing it for decades.

Magluvin

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1376 on: April 03, 2016, 02:30:03 AM »
Anyway....

Was looking into the battery oscillation more.  With the new circuit a relatively fresh AA battery is ringing at about 15mhz. The voltage swings seem quite high, so I put a white led across the battery. Circuit is running without load leds. Only the led across the battery.

Mags

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1377 on: April 03, 2016, 02:47:21 AM »
Oxidized Nitrogen by-products are the result of
very high temperature combustion.  The techniques
for reducing combustion temperature while at the
same time increasing gaseous reaction volume are
well known.  It is possible to eliminate NOx, reduce CO,
reduce fuel consumption and thereby enhance engine
power and efficiency quite easily.  Aviation has been
doing it for decades.  Savvy motorists have also been
doing it for decades.

I was with you up to "enhance engine power".  There was a time when EGR was used for purposes not related to intentionally reducing emissions.  However, replacing a lot of inlet air or air/fuel mix with EGR to reduce NOx is not going to "enhance power".  As well, adding extra fuel to to keep the cats lit off or just having to deal with their added back pressure is not going to improve fuel economy.

Look at VW's recent diesel emissions debacle.  They illegally chose performance over reduced NOx emissions when the vehicle's software detected no emissions test was underway (mostly by decreasing EGR).

It is quite easy to improve the fuel economy or performance of a modern auto engine.  Lose the emissions related hardware and reprogram the ECM.  There is an entire aftermarket devoted to doing just that.  While it is illegal to do so in the US, many do it anyway (often under the guise of claiming off road use).

I would not want to own a modern diesel with a DPF.  Another consumable (DEF), additional exhaust back pressure, and even more fuel needed to burn off captured particulates during the DPF purge.  Talk about reduced performance and economy for the sake of reduced emissions.  Aftermarket DPF and EGR delete kits abound... (and of course are installed and used illegally)

Some of the emissions related gear has gotten better (for example, modern cats need less fuel (EGT) to keep them "lit").  But for the most part my statement stands.  Reducing the emissions produced by an ICE almost always means having to reduce performance, efficiency, or more to the point, fuel economy.

PW

picowatt

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1378 on: April 03, 2016, 03:06:06 AM »
Now we get into the meat of the matter.   ;)

When the 1K resistor across the LED is removed, the LED goes out.

But when I replace the resistor with a 2.2 uH inductor (DC resistance about 0.8 ohm) , the LED comes back on.

Without the 1K resistor there is no path for current to flow when the applied waveform is a negative voltage.  Without that current flow, the 1N4007 diodes never turn on.  Because they never turn on, there is no turn off delay to power the LED when the waveform transitions to a positive voltage.

This supports 1N4007 turn off delay time as being the reason the LED lit (as opposed to junction capacitance).

PW

SeaMonkey

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1379 on: April 03, 2016, 04:16:00 AM »
Quote from: PicoWatt
...
Some of the emissions related gear has gotten better (for example, modern cats need less fuel (EGT) to keep them "lit").  But for the most part my statement stands.  Reducing the emissions produced by an ICE almost always means having to reduce performance, efficiency, or more to the point, fuel economy.

Your thinking is too recent and too modern.
The techniques I hinted at go back a long
way and are completely "legal."  In fact,
they are still in use today by many.  The
aviation industry uses a variant to boost
aircraft power when it is most needed.

Rudolf Gunnerman has devoted many years
to his project of maximizing engine efficiency
while minimizing harmful emissions.

It is very unfortunate that Corporate Love of
Money (and individual Love of Money as well)
have proven to be a nearly insurmountable
obstacle to the manufacture of clean and efficient
engines for the masses.