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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944375 times)

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #690 on: March 08, 2016, 04:08:38 PM »
MH
I am giving you a new knickname.
From now on i think we should call you 4T8 ;D

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #691 on: March 08, 2016, 04:10:28 PM »
I can answer the question very easily MH--you drive it as fast as it will go in the environment it is in,and measure the speed--100% accurate.
Using your speed measuring technique,we will never know the answer,as your missing one major environmental factor needed.

MH--do you know what you have missed ?.

My statement again:

Quote
The answer is the maximum speed of the car is determined from where the maximum horsepower that can be output by the engine is in balance with all of the air friction and various other friction forces.

"All of the air friction and various other friction forces" will depend on the environment the car is being tested in.  So your whole line of "reasoning" is wrong when you allege that I am "missing the environmental factor."

Quote
Guess you missed yet another post,regarding resonant inductive coupling transformers  ::)

You were talking about a Joule Thief and not "transmitting power over 'mid-range.'"

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #692 on: March 08, 2016, 04:13:44 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

Since measuring is not an answer then how can anything be known about the oscillations per time unit?

In short, no frequency can be known without measuring the cycles per time unit unless it is compared to a known value from an item that has that value known,, which is measuring in its own way.

I refuse to believe that you can't understand the meaning of the question.

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #693 on: March 08, 2016, 04:21:34 PM »
Stop pointing away from yourself

You are ultimately saying here that Brad is clueless (and Smokey too) because of some standard which
You have set ,
------

That they could probably resonate hell off its hinges if given the chance ..
Doesn't matter to you.

No you need some standard beyond measurement criteria  ,some higher level of knowledge which
You hold Ransome and flaunt in grandiose self serving pleasure for all to see..
(And for months of time ...you sadist !!)

Bow your head with me....

Putz
And then explain the difference between what they do to resonate (measure)
And what you do with magnets ?

Double putz

If you are going to claim that you know about resonance then answering two simple questions about resonance should be a trivial matter.  But instead, it's a high-drama circus.  What can you infer from that?  Stop your ridiculous "enforcer" nonsense and support truth and education instead of skewed politically correct enforced ignorance.

Calling somebody's bluff is a worthwhile exercise in the search for the truth and we are trying desperately to tun lemons into lemonaid but the resistance is on full force.  How dare people actually demonstrate competence, this is a free energy forum after all?  We need more people like FatBird.  Why don't you go to GDS and call their bluff?

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #694 on: March 08, 2016, 04:32:29 PM »
Most would call it hypocrisy !

and a double standard , with no value whatsoever but to place yourself at the top of some make believe pile of humanity.

creepy indeed !

you can't explain a magnet ,but that's OK because its you ..and we just measure .
Brad measures to find resonance [which he does Spot on whenever he pleases ]
but that's not OK he needs to bow and kiss your errr ring...

your quite odd in the way you set a standard and flaunt your self as some higher level of morality ...

very odd indeed
gotta go
however one personal comment

this ain't doin us any good...
please figure a way around this bump !



MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #695 on: March 08, 2016, 04:50:53 PM »
No, we were having a discussion about resonance and I suspected that some people were bluffing about it.  You know, like how 95% of the people that build stuff with coils and post about them all the time don't actually understand how they work?

So I posted these two simple questions and requested two simple answers:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?


And low and behold, nobody has been able to answer them correctly in their own words.  So what are the implications for people that are trying to experiment with resonance?

The questions were posed because of Brad's big talk about resonance, and it's turned out to be big fake talk and a bunch of copy-pasting.  That's a worthwhile exercise whether you like it or not.  It has devolved into a bloody circus and that's not my doing.  Answers will be provided in April.  If people had the right attitude they would take up the challenge and try to answer these simple questions by learning and then distilling that knowledge and comprehending it so that they could successfully answer the two questions.  On another forum where people take pride in educating themselves in the information age they would welcome this as a fun challenge.  Instead you have a circus with a bunch of poseurs that aren't happy that they can't talk the talk anymore because someone asked them to walk the walk and they couldn't do it.  All that they could do was complain and copy/paste, they couldn't use their own brains and intellect to answer the questions.  But they still can if they want to work at it.  Experience has shown they will not learn if it's spoon fed to them.

If you don't like it, tough for you.

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #696 on: March 08, 2016, 08:27:27 PM »
Going to electronics pre-101 :)

I asked this a long time ago elsewhere but did not get an answer,,

A conductor has a relaxation time period before it starts to conduct,, does an inductor have that same delay?


Yes, it is the inverse of its resonance frequency.


Actually, I just made that up...but it sounded reasonable didn't it?  I actually have no idea what the answer to your question really is.  Sorry.


Bill


PS  I would think that it would vary with the permeability of the inductor though. (Seriously)

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #697 on: March 08, 2016, 08:44:35 PM »
 MH
As regards TinMan and Smokey and your education of same and claim that they are faking it ?

I just got my crystal ball back from the shop...
I see that you have  no clothing  ? ( the Emperor has no cloths??) And egg on face..

Could be on the fritz again that atom guy really made a mess of it...
Although,
I suppose in Tinmans case he probably has something in his seven thousand videos
That will serve up crow ?

Enjoy you spring time !

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #698 on: March 08, 2016, 08:46:54 PM »
What's the matter with you, Chet?   You explain to us what a magnet *really* is?  You can't?  Whoops, not a single other person on this forum can either, can they?  And yet you want to single me out?  That is the lamest BS you are trying to pull on me.  In your previous posting you played straw-man with me and said I made statements that I didn't make.  Even you, not being technical, can spot Brad's continuous stream of ridiculous gaffes and you say nothing.

You are in a straitjacket and you are casting stones at me like a mindless drone because "forum political correctness" has told you to do it.  Go back and read "The Lottery" and bow your head in shame.

actually MH,  I know for a fact that at least 4 of us can do a pretty good job at it.
perhaps more, I don't "know" everyone well enough to make broad assumptions like that.

The problem I see with attempting to explain it to you, is the gaps in your logic.
You seem to have trouble following a coherent language-based discussion.
How could I ever expect you to be able to follow a quantum atomic loop around a single rendition.
much less the "countably infinite" number of renditions one must calculate to grasp a basic understanding of the magnetic moment.
Which occurs at something over a million THz in a monoatomic (Fe).

Then expect you to be able to add up all these quantities and their associated angular vectors to apply this to a mass-field scenario.

In all honesty, the way this thread has been going,
I would venture to say it is easier to perform long drawn out trigonometric derivations
than it is to teach a simply basic concept of wave interference to Milehigh.

It is beyond the point of ridiculousness. I am not sure at this point, if you are just not paying attention, if you habitually forget what was stated,
or that you just enjoy the confrontation (attention, etc) of being the naysayer. I am unsure of your intentions here.

 And now, once again, just for you MH, I will do what I said I was NOT going to do...
(seems like a waste of time, but what the hell, you actually seem interested in the answer for once....)





MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #699 on: March 08, 2016, 09:31:10 PM »
actually MH,  I know for a fact that at least 4 of us can do a pretty good job at it.
perhaps more, I don't "know" everyone well enough to make broad assumptions like that.

The problem I see with attempting to explain it to you, is the gaps in your logic.
You seem to have trouble following a coherent language-based discussion.
How could I ever expect you to be able to follow a quantum atomic loop around a single rendition.
much less the "countably infinite" number of renditions one must calculate to grasp a basic understanding of the magnetic moment.
Which occurs at something over a million THz in a monoatomic (Fe).

Then expect you to be able to add up all these quantities and their associated angular vectors to apply this to a mass-field scenario.

In all honesty, the way this thread has been going,
I would venture to say it is easier to perform long drawn out trigonometric derivations
than it is to teach a simply basic concept of wave interference to Milehigh.

It is beyond the point of ridiculousness. I am not sure at this point, if you are just not paying attention, if you habitually forget what was stated,
or that you just enjoy the confrontation
(attention, etc) of being the naysayer. I am unsure of your intentions here.

 And now, once again, just for you MH, I will do what I said I was NOT going to do...
(seems like a waste of time, but what the hell, you actually seem interested in the answer for once....)

The highlighted stuff must be you mistaking me for somebody else.

We are not here to talk about quantum physics, and that's a subject that I know next to nothing about.  Likewise I didn't ask you to explain anything about this to me, did I?

I made a posting to you where I asked some follow-up questions to one of your postings.

Beyond that, I am asking you to answer my two simple questions about the wine glass in your own words with simple, succinct answers - four sentences or less.  No discussion of fluid in the glass, no finger rubbing the rim, absolutely no copy/paste.  Just answer the questions in your own words.  Are you capable of doing that?

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #700 on: March 08, 2016, 10:07:08 PM »
before I get into this, I will state some basic assumptions of the conditions involved.
These assumptions are to give quantities to the unknown factors necessary for such discussion to take place.

We will first assume that our wine glass is void of all defects, bubbles, cracks, stress-lines, and other such imperfections in the crystals

and since either two of the common methods of calculation are dependent upon temperature and other such factors,
(Young's Modulus or Shear Modulus)
We will further assume that these calculations take place at Sea Level, at SI "standard" temperature, pressure, humidity, etc.
We will also assume there is "standard" ratio of the components of the "air", such that the mathematical constants applied thereto,
   do not change throughout the mathematical analysis of the glass' resonance.

I will use Young's Modulus, as it pertains, with respect to glass-ceramics, directly to the velocity and propagation of the wave function.
This is derived using the Bulk Modulus K, and by a proportional constant of nature, both Shear Modulus and Poison's Ratio are defined.

Young's Modulus (defined by a capital "E", not to be confused with Energy) is therefore modified as:
E = pv^2
p is the density of the glass, and v is the longitudinal velocity of the pulse, or wavefront.

as you can see here, we must hold temperature constant, or we change the value of the modulus.
like sticking a tuning fork in the oven  ;)


To further simplify the discussion, it will be assumed that the particular wine glass is of known composition.
let us assume this particular wine glass to be composed of a silicate
with a Young's modulus of 75

We will assume the speed of sound in air to be 343 Meters per Second

We will also assume that the wine glass is (mostly) cylindrical, and without odd curvatures.

[Note: there may be other obvious assumptions I may have forgotten,]
[ so the above list may be added to over the next short time]
[ while I attempt to fulfill what has been requested of me.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, what represents the resonant standing wave inside an (empty) glass, or glass filled with only air:
is considered in two parts.

There is the resonance of the cavity
and the shift in frequency caused by the elasticity of the glass material.

I will deal with the easy part first, the other half would probably take me most of a day to put into words.
The above Young's Modulus equation is already crunching half a page of math into a single line.
Do it again for the resonant cavity, and forgive me for needing a little time to plug both of them together.
it has been the better part of 15yrs since I've dealt with this particular issue.
Such is generally only required in theory, not in practice....
better yet, I have already done way more than necessary I think.
So let me just set this mess on my desk for now, I think you can see where it is leading.
I am not prepared at this moment to fully describe the wave interactions between the soundwave
and the vibrational wave through the glass material
in a coherent mathematical equation that represents both features.
this would be a lot easier if it were a flat, thin rectangle of glass.
Not a round goblet shape, its a mathematical blunder taking the tensor forces over a curvature.
(I think you have gotten the best of my patience on this one!! grr)

But what I will do instead is give you a footing by which you can change your own diaper.
(sorry, my babies are grown, I don't do that anymore)

So,. let us begin:

the frequency of the resonant cavity, formed by the dimensions of the wine glass is defined as:

f = v / 4(h + 0.4d)

where h is the height of the glass from the inside bottom to the rim
d is the diameter
v is the speed of sound

coincidentally:

v = f * wavelength
wavelength = 4(h + 0.4d)
v= f(4(h +0.4d))
and so forth and so on...

If the f represented by the resonant cavity were labeled as F1
the actual frequency resonating from the glass labeled as F2
then,

F1 - F2 = the shift in frequency caused by the glass material, as defined by Young's Modulus.

What you will find with your microphone or other testing apparatus, is both F2 resonating from the glass material
as well as F1 resonating inside the glass (with traces of F2 observable at certain locations therein)
as well as other (lower intensity) odd number harmonics.
these are defined as:

 
f = N(v) / 4(h + 0.4d)
  where N is an odd number.

Why an odd number?
  Because, much like our Joule Thief, the standing wave in the wineglass is a Half-Wave.
therefore, only the odd harmonics are not destroyed.

go ahead and test for these harmonic frequencies with your wine glass microphones.

If you find yourself unable to grasp these simple concepts,
you cannot understand what resonance "is".
everything that resonates, does so according to simple natural laws.

distances, velocities, intervals of time, rates of propagation
the things that define frequency

electricity and magnetism do not get a free pass on this one.
it is all the same

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #701 on: March 08, 2016, 10:14:22 PM »
four sentences.....

hmm.,..  I guess I fail your test then.

I require much more than that.

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #702 on: March 08, 2016, 10:29:21 PM »
So you are talking about the resonance of the air cavity inside the wine glass.

I asked you about the resonance of the wine glass itself.  Is there a comprehension issue?

Now that you understand that I am asking you about the resonance of the wine glass itself (like if you were to flick your finger against the rim) please give clear and succinct answers to my questions:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #703 on: March 08, 2016, 11:36:32 PM »
So you are talking about the resonance of the air cavity inside the wine glass.

I asked you about the resonance of the wine glass itself.  Is there a comprehension issue?

Now that you understand that I am asking you about the resonance of the wine glass itself (like if you were to flick your finger against the rim) please give clear and succinct answers to my questions:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

your inability to comprehend overwhelms me.....

the resonance of the glass itself, is a function of BOTH the resonance of the cavity formed by the SHAPE and DIMENSIONS of the WINE GLASS and the materials constant caused by the change in frequency through the glass itself.

if you flick a flat piece of glass - then you are dealing with (mostly) the resonance of the glass itself.
the physical dimensions used in this part of the equation are the length and width and thickness of the flat piece.
also it must be known if you are flicking it on its' wide flat surface or on one of its' edges.

  this is much different than a "wine glass" resonance. as I just explained above.
take 3 different size wine glasses, from the same set.
same glass material, etc.
put them on your table, and flick each one.

Now, you can hear how their physical dimensions change the frequency.

I have to go wash my hands now,. I think I got some poopie on them..
can someone please throw his dirty diaper away for me...



MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #704 on: March 08, 2016, 11:52:17 PM »
your inability to comprehend overwhelms me.....

the resonance of the glass itself, is a function of BOTH the resonance of the cavity formed by the SHAPE and DIMENSIONS of the WINE GLASS and the materials constant caused by the change in frequency through the glass itself.

if you flick a flat piece of glass - then you are dealing with (mostly) the resonance of the glass itself.
the physical dimensions used in this part of the equation are the length and width and thickness of the flat piece.
also it must be known if you are flicking it on its' wide flat surface or on one of its' edges.

  this is much different than a "wine glass" resonance. as I just explained above.
take 3 different size wine glasses, from the same set.
same glass material, etc.
put them on your table, and flick each one.

Now, you can hear how their physical dimensions change the frequency.

I have to go wash my hands now,. I think I got some poopie on them..
can someone please throw his dirty diaper away for me...

You dare talk about comprehension issues.  Total fail.  You were asked to give a simple answer and the mass of the resonating glass is much much larger than the air in the cavity and around the glass so it can be ignored.  The resonant frequency of the wine glass has essentially nothing to do with the air in the cavity of the glass.  Plus I asked for a simple explanation.  You are supposed to be explaining what resonance in a wine glass is, not having a technical wanking session to impress a bunch of unknown posters.

Your previous long posting is an incoherent technical word salad.  So I am firmly putting you in the poseur category.  You clearly can't express something simple in simple terms.  For all I know you did a Google frenzy.

Quote
consider the difference between the speed of sound in air, vs the speed of sound in a vacuum.

Speed of sound in a vacuum?  You must have tripped over your keyboard in a chaotic Google frenzy.

Take your colourful metaphors and wipe your face with them.