Author Topic: There is no Over Unity (Read 21988 times)

Tito L. Oracion · « **Reply #30 on:** June 03, 2009, 10:49:32 AM »

Hi

planets are moving, rotating, revolving by themselves

WHAT IS THAT

even magnets have mysterious unseen energy, a little movements of a coil or vice versa produce electricity using falling water oviously makes a recycle and convertion and overunity.

the heart of a human or an animal pumps by its own using only a fraction of energy and the body makes an unmeasurable designs of gigawatts of energy.

do you know tesla? etc?

otits

IronShell3d · « **Reply #31 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:07:15 PM »

Hi Tito,

Planets are not electrons. Very different. May work for SiFi movies but not in reality.

A magnet's magnetic field is created by the rotating and moving 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons of the aligned Iron atoms. Nothing secret or unknown here.

As for the body generating GigaWatts of energy, if it was 99.9% efficient (and it is not) that is a Megawatt of heat it would need to get rid of. As the measured heat generated by a human body is more like 100 Watts, I suggest the GigaWatts figure may be a bit overstated.

Anyway all the energy we use was created in the Big Bang, then stored in the larger atoms created in the fusion furnace in the belly of our young sun before it got a belly ache, went Nova and formed the planets from the heavier atoms it had created.

So there are no OUDS (Over Unity Devices with more energy in than out). Just inventors working to tap unconventional energy sources using UEDs (Unconventional Energy Devices).

IronShell3d

Liberty · « **Reply #32 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:55:44 PM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 03, 2009, 05:37:20 AM

Hi Liberty,

Loading a magnet moves it's operating point up and down it's BH curve. In doing so energy is used as any BH curve movement causes Hysteresis losses. So any magnet used in a normal PM motor experiences BH curve operating point changes and Hysteresis losses. These Hysteresis losses generate heat in the magnet and may be enough to lift it's operational temperature above it's Curie point and cause the loss of it's Iron atom alignment and the loss of it's external magnetic field.

However the energy to drive the BH curve changes comes from an external energy source and not the magnet, so it's 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons do no work.

But if you let a piece of ferrite loose near a magnet, the two are attracted to each other and the H field of the magnet will need to expend energy to align the Iron atoms in the ferrite (drive it up it's BH curve). The aligning ferrite's Iron atoms will produce a external magnetic field which will result in mutual attraction between the magnet and the ferrite. As both move toward each other, kinetic energy is gained until they collide with each other and the kinetic energy is converted into heat.

So here again we have some of the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons doing work and that work being converted into heat via both BH curve Hysteresis changes / losses in the magnet and in the ferrite and magnet collision.

IronShell3d

If I understand Hysteresis changes correctly, it means that the magnetic particles move or flip with a changing magnetic field. This would be nearly impossible in a permanent magnet because if the magnetic particles flipped, you would destroy the magnet itself. We know that the pinning material in a permanent magnet holds the magnetic particles in place and little if any heat is generated by flexing because these particles don't flip, thus making a permanent magnet. Hysteresis does occur in iron due to changing magnetic fields in things like a motor armature. They anneal the metal to lessen the effects of hysteresis in a motor armature.

IronShell3d · « **Reply #33 on:** June 03, 2009, 03:05:29 PM »

Hi Liberty,

Your understanding is ok for a perfect magnet but magnet are not perfect. Magnets do have BH curves. Take a short rod magnet. Working open circuit, the external field will be limited by the internal flux path (inside the magnet), in effect shorting the magnet and reducing the external field. Short the magnet by placing a C ferrite flux path for the internal and external flux and the magnet will move way up it's BH curve. However the available external field will be very small.

Overall a longer rod magnet will have a higher open circuit available field than a shorter rod magnet.

BTW, non Neo magnets in starter motors can get VERY hot and over time loose strength due to non pinned domains rotating, absorbing energy and getting hot. Neo work much better as they generally are stiffer due to their much better pinning of the aligned atoms / domains. However magnet manufacturing quality can also effect how much of the domains are pinned and how much internal heat is generated as the magnets operating point on it's BH curve moves up and down.

Not all magnets are created equally and all magnets can be demagnetised if a strong enough reverse magnetic field is applied. They can also be remagnetised. Sometime magnets are shipped unmagnetised and magnetised on the job. So ALL magnets can experience domain rotation.

Magnets have a designed operational range and the max reverse field strength is also specified. Keep with-in the magnet's design specs, use a high quality magnet and it's field strength will not decline.

IronShell3d

0c · « **Reply #34 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:09:08 PM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 03, 2009, 03:12:53 AM

As I have already shown how a magnet's H field can be made to do work,

I'm a bit curious how a magnet's H field can do work. Seems to me the H field is an externally applied field, not something intrinsic to the magnet. Take one of your favorite neo magnets and set it in the center of a wooden table all by itself. Where's the H field? How can it do any work?

Here's an interesting presentation I stumbled on recently. Maybe someone here can learn something from it:

Magnetic Microstructure of Magnetic Materials
http://141.223.122.174/schaefer/

newbie123 · « **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:58:58 PM »

Magnets alone can not perform work just like gravity.....

If you pull two magnets apart, you then have a potential energy that can be realized once you release the magnets and they come together. Gravity is the same way.. A rock on the ground is affected by gravity but doesn't have energy... Pick it up off the ground, then it has potential energy... Release it.. then there is the work/energy when it hits the ground.. It is the changes within these fields on an object (electrons in a wire, or a rock on a hill, etc)... That creates energy.. Some examples:

Lenz's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law

Changing magnetic fields will induce a current (move electrons) within a wire.

The hall effect is interesting as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect

IronShell3d · « **Reply #36 on:** June 04, 2009, 01:08:16 AM »

Quote from: 0c on June 03, 2009, 04:09:08 PM

Take one of your favorite neo magnets and set it in the center of a wooden table all by itself. Where's the H field? How can it do any work?

Hi NewBie123,

Put a battery in the centre of the table. How can it do any work?

You do need to put the energy source in contact with a load for work to be done.

When a magnet's H field encounters the unaligned magnetic domains in a nearby ferrite and causes them to become magnetically aligned, where do you think the energy that overcame the Hysteresis losses involved in the ferrite's domain alignment process came from?

It came from the magnet's Iron atoms 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons.

When you release a ferrite close by a magnet and the magnet and the ferrite are drawn to each other, where did the energy come from that caused the physical movement that caused them to become in contact?

It came from the magnet's Iron atoms 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons.

Do you understand why when you put two identical magnets facing say S/S and then facing say S/N an equal distance apart, the repelling and attraction forces are different?

IronShell3d

IronShell3d · « **Reply #37 on:** June 04, 2009, 01:13:05 AM »

Quote from: newbie123 on June 03, 2009, 06:58:58 PM

Magnets alone can not perform work just like gravity

Hi Newbie123.

Correct.

But place the magnet near a ferrite and it will do work in overcoming Hysteresis losses during the ferrite's domain alignment process and in causing physical movement that attracts the two together.

This is something gravity can't do and so lets agree that the two "Forces" are very different in this way. Gravity can not induce physical changes in a ferrite and a magnet can.

IronShell3d

IronShell3d · « **Reply #38 on:** June 04, 2009, 01:22:58 AM »

Quote from: newbie123 on June 03, 2009, 06:58:58 PM

Changing magnetic fields will induce a current (move electrons) within a wire.

Hi NewBie123,

You need to ask yourself why a changing magnetic field density will cause an outer shell copper atom electron to leave it's orbit and move to take up a place in the outer shell of a nearby copper atom. Why will it not do this with a non changing magnetic field. Why must the field density change?

I mean free electrons are easily controlled and directed with a static magnetic field. That is how a old style CRT based TV deflection system works as well as very big atom smashers.

Why then does the outer shell electron in a copper wire need a changing magnetic field density to get movement and current flow?

IronShell3d

X00013 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 04, 2009, 06:31:56 AM »

@ Ironshell3d, so how do I build it?

X00013 · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:18:47 AM »

Question, is the ultimate power source coming from heat or coldness? ( B vs. H ) , seems like the coldness rules, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31068574/

IronShell3d · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:22:57 AM »

Quote from: X00013 on June 04, 2009, 06:31:56 AM

@ Ironshell3d, so how do I build it?

Hi X00013,

Build what?

IronShell3d

IronShell3d · « **Reply #42 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:38:07 AM »

Quote from: X00013 on June 04, 2009, 07:18:47 AM

Question, is the ultimate power source coming from heat or coldness? ( B vs. H ) , seems like the coldness rules, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31068574/

Hi X00013,

All the energy in the universe that we know of was created by / during the Big Bang.

All we now do is to tap into various energy storage structures (normally hydrocarbon based, a bit of nuclear and a very small amount of real time solar derived energy (wind / PV)) that the original energy formed into and in the end turn that released energy into desired work and then into heat.

I'm about tapping the stored Iron atom's 3d shell energy that resides in the 4 unpaired spinning electrons that create the magnetic field we associate with a magnet. No OU here, just tapping a unconventional energy source.

Can you make a "motor" or a non moving device to tap that energy store? Yup, but not the way most of the inventors here are trying to do. You see they do not understand the nature of the energy source they are trying to get at. I'm trying to fix that lack of understanding and provide some guide lines along the way.

I have already given you thought experiments (which are easy to replicate) which show you can access the energy stored in the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons of each Iron atom of a magnet to generate heat.

IronShell3d

newbie123 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 04, 2009, 08:00:25 AM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 04, 2009, 01:22:58 AM

Hi NewBie123,

You need to ask yourself why a changing magnetic field density will cause an outer shell copper atom electron to leave it's orbit and move to take up a place in the outer shell of a nearby copper atom.

Changing magnetic fields will induce an electric current in wire ... That's just the way nature is. Without this feature we'd have no electricity.

Quote

Why will it not do this with a non changing magnetic field. Why must the field density change?

Lets try this analogy... Say you have a puddle (the copper wire) and a stick (the magnetic field), you can hit the puddle to create waves (or electricity). To keep waves (or electricity) in the puddle you need to hitting it with the puddle (wire) with the stick (magnetic) field.

You can't place a non moving stick in a puddle and expect waves to magically appear, right?

Liberty · « **Reply #44 on:** June 04, 2009, 01:27:53 PM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 04, 2009, 07:38:07 AM

Hi X00013,

All the energy in the universe that we know of was created by / during the Big Bang.

All we now do is to tap into various energy storage structures (normally hydrocarbon based, a bit of nuclear and a very small amount of real time solar derived energy (wind / PV)) that the original energy formed into and in the end turn that released energy into desired work and then into heat.

I'm about tapping the stored Iron atom's 3d shell energy that resides in the 4 unpaired spinning electrons that create the magnetic field we associate with a magnet. No OU here, just tapping a unconventional energy source.

Can you make a "motor" or a non moving device to tap that energy store? Yup, but not the way most of the inventors here are trying to do. You see they do not understand the nature of the energy source they are trying to get at. I'm trying to fix that lack of understanding and provide some guide lines along the way.

I have already given you thought experiments (which are easy to replicate) which show you can access the energy stored in the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons of each Iron atom of a magnet to generate heat.

IronShell3d

"It came from the magnet's Iron atoms 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons."

Do you have a estimate of how long this stored energy source will last if it is tapped, and what happens to the magnet when it is depleted?

Have you successfully made any devices to extract energy from a permanent magnet?

How did you make this discovery?

News:

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Author Topic: There is no Over Unity (Read 21988 times)

Tito L. Oracion

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Liberty

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0c

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