Author Topic: There is no Over Unity (Read 22029 times)

IronShell3d · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:02:03 AM »

Hi Guys,

Energy is not power, which is the use of energy over time to do work.

The unpaired 3d shell electrons in the Iron atom are like a superconducting electron flow. As they have no resistance, they don't need to do work to retain their orbit and thus their energy level stays constant. Magnetically align Iron atoms and their individual magnetic fields combine to become strong enough for us to detect them.

However work was expended in causing the electron movement in the first place. For the Iron atom it was born from lighter atoms in the belly of our young star before it went Nova, belched out the Iron and other elements and over time formed our planets.

For the superconducting magnet, it was the original power supply that caused the current / electrons to flow that generated the magnetic field.

Either way they are the same. Constant electron movement, in a no resistance environment and the creation of a magnetic field as a result of the electron movement.

As for there the original energy came from, there is only one energy source that we have been able to tap so far and that is the sun. Burning fossil fuel is burning stored solar energy. So too is a atomic reactor as the fuel was made in the sun, like the Iron a long time ago.

IronShell3d

X00013 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:13:32 AM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 03, 2009, 12:02:03 AM

Hi Guys,

Energy is not power, which is the use of energy over time to do work.

The unpaired 3d shell electrons in the Iron atom are like a superconducting electron flow. As they have no resistance, they don't need to do work to retain their orbit and thus their energy level stays constant. Magnetically align Iron atoms and their individual magnetic fields combine to become strong enough for us to detect them.

However work was expended in causing the electron movement in the first place. For the Iron atom it was born from lighter atoms in the belly of our young star before it went Nova, belched out the Iron and other elements and over time formed our planets.

For the superconducting magnet, it was the original power supply that caused the current / electrons to flow that generated the magnetic field.

Either way they are the same. Constant electron movement, in a no resistance environment and the creation of a magnetic field as a result of the electron movement.

As for there the original energy came from, there is only one energy source that we have been able to tap so far and that is the sun. Burning fossil fuel is burning stored solar energy. So too is a atomic reactor as the fuel was made in the sun, like the Iron a long time ago.

IronShell3d

So what would be your suggestion to builders? Should we use round mags? How would you go about materializing your words?

IronShell3d · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:32:28 AM »

Hi X00013,

Trying to get power from a magnetic field is like trying to get power from a spring. It is not the real energy source, just the reflection.

A magnet generates an H field, which can be used to magnetise other magnets. One magnet can make unlimited more magnets. In the new magnets, the new magnetic field is not borrowed or transfered from the original magnet. Instead the new magnetic field is created from the aligned Iron atoms in the new magnet. What causes the Iron atom alignment in the new magnet is the H field in the original magnet.

Now doing this does need energy as the original magnet must do work to cause the non aligned Iron atoms in the non magnetised material to be aligned.

Here is one thought experiment of how you can tap the energy source that creates the magnetic field.

So ok now you have done the above and created millions of new magnets from the original. Insert each into the centre of a coil, connect up the coil to a electrical load and heat the million magnets above their Curie point using a solar concentrator. As the magnetic fields in the million magnets decays, you will get power transfered into the load. That power came from the zillions of 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons in original magnet which originally came from the sun as the Iron atoms were created.

Probably a lot easier to bypass the middle man, the magnet which did some solar energy storage, and get the power directly from the sun.

IronShell3d

TinselKoala · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:53:55 AM »

Did I suddenly wake up in a new and enlightened universe, where people actually make sense?
Next you'll be telling us that it's impossible to extract energy from a system of permanent magnets moving around a closed loop, or something like that.

No worries, there's always gravity....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(or buoyancy, or spiky electrical waveforms, or reticulated plasmonic persuasion...)

newbie123 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:56:48 AM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 03, 2009, 01:32:28 AM

Hi X00013,

Trying to get power from a magnetic field is like trying to get power from a spring.

I agree.

Quote

A magnet generates an H field, which can be used to magnetise other magnets.
One magnet can make unlimited more magnets.

Only with lots of energy input.

Quote

In the new magnets, the new magnetic field is not borrowed or transfered from the original magnet.

Yep.

Quote

Here is one thought experiment of how you can tap the energy source that creates the magnetic field.

So ok now you have done the above and created millions of new magnets from the original. Insert each into the centre of a coil, connect up the coil to a electrical load and heat the million magnets above their Curie point using a solar concentrator. As the magnetic fields in the million magnets decays, you will get power transfered into the load.

Eh?

IronShell3d · « **Reply #20 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:22:16 AM »

Hi X00013,

The energy input is only small and is just to overcome the Hysteresis loss in the unmagnetised ferromagnetic material that becomes magnetised.

The magnetic field which is "Created" in the new magnet is supplied by the 4 shell 3d unpaired electrons of the now aligned Iron atoms in the new magnet and not by the original magnet.

Hi TK,

Magnetic fields are just energy conduits just like a pair of copper wires are. In both cases, the energy is not in the energy conductor but in the prime energy source. In a magnet that is the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons of the Iron atom. They are where energy is stored and tapping that energy is what magnet UED (Unconventional Energy Device) research should be about.

I suggest one way to do that is to tap into the H field of the magnet and not the B field.

IronShell3d

TinselKoala · « **Reply #21 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:39:43 AM »

Ahh, I see. Hence your handle.

Whew. I was worried there for a moment, but I see that it's still the same old OverUntried Forum that we all know and love.

Carry on.

IronShell3d · « **Reply #22 on:** June 03, 2009, 03:12:53 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 03, 2009, 02:39:43 AM

Carry on.

I would suggest no one thinks they can get power from a pair of copper wires. I mean what comes out is just what goes in, minus losses. So totally conservative.

Likewise so it is for a magnetic field. It just transfers energy from the energy source to the load as in a transformer or motor. So like the pair of copper wires magnetic fields (the B field) are conservative and not a source of energy.

As I have already shown how a magnet's H field can be made to do work, I suggest the eager UED builders here should think awhile about the difference between the magnet's B field and the magnet's H field and understand the B field is just the effect / reflection of the effect of the H field on Iron atoms and not an energy source.

Maybe try to think about how to get energy from a superconducting magnet? I mean we all know there is energy stored there by the power supply that gave rise to the perpetually moving electrons that then created the magnetic field. In reality a magnet is just the same, perpetually moving electrons, expect the belly of our young sun was the energy source and not some high current power supply, which got it's energy indirectly from the sun anyway.

IronShell3d

TinselKoala · « **Reply #23 on:** June 03, 2009, 03:49:22 AM »

The only part of that that I find objectionable is the part where you get the energy out of the orbiting electrons.

How can that happen without the electron's energy level -- its quantum orbital level -- decaying by a quantum, that is, a photon, of electromagnetic energy?

And how can the electron's level decay beyond the ground state, or go above the ionization energy, if iron is to remain iron?

Sure, you can use various processes to make an electron jump to a higher orbital or shell, and it absorbs EM quanta when it does so. The same total energy, but perhaps in different wavelength(s), that you get out when the electron decays back to its ground state. So the electron, just like the spring or the mag field, is not an energy source but only a store.

Now, there's beta decay, which is a different sort of event altogether -- but then we don't exactly have iron any more, do we.

(And isn't it the Sun, in your example, doing the work, not the H field?)

IronShell3d · « **Reply #24 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:00:25 AM »

Hi TK,

Yup the spinning electron has stored energy that was put there in the belly of our young sun a LONG TIME AGO.

And yes the Iron will change as it gives up some of it's stored energy and the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons drop into lower and lower shells. However as long as they stay unpaired, the magnetic field will continue.

You could look at this process as momentum transfer from the electron to the load with the magnetic field being the transfer conduit.

There are no free lunches. Use the energy and you change the energy source. That is why I call it UED (Unconventional Energy Device) and not Over Unity, which is in effect, just not setting the square big enough to understand where the energy is coming from.

IronShell3d

lostcauses10x · « **Reply #25 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:02:27 AM »

LOL this one will be next.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090602112259.htm

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 03, 2009, 01:53:55 AM

Did I suddenly wake up in a new and enlightened universe, where people actually make sense?
Next you'll be telling us that it's impossible to extract energy from a system of permanent magnets moving around a closed loop, or something like that.

No worries, there's always gravity....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(or buoyancy, or spiky electrical waveforms, or reticulated plasmonic persuasion...)

Liberty · « **Reply #26 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:51:10 AM »

Quote from: IronShell3d on June 03, 2009, 04:00:25 AM

Hi TK,

Yup the spinning electron has stored energy that was put there in the belly of our young sun a LONG TIME AGO.

And yes the Iron will change as it gives up some of it's stored energy and the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons drop into lower and lower shells. However as long as they stay unpaired, the magnetic field will continue.

You could look at this process as momentum transfer from the electron to the load with the magnetic field being the transfer conduit.

There are no free lunches. Use the energy and you change the energy source. That is why I call it UED (Unconventional Energy Device) and not Over Unity, which is in effect, just not setting the square big enough to understand where the energy is coming from.

IronShell3d

Assuming that the above theory is true, we should notice a weakening magnetic field as energy is extracted from the magnet. Is there any evidence of this after using magnets in attract for a while? (Such as in a permanent magnet motor with a coil). How long does a magnet in a motor last since energy is being used from the magnetic field almost continually to assist running the motor?

IronShell3d · « **Reply #27 on:** June 03, 2009, 05:37:20 AM »

Quote from: Liberty on June 03, 2009, 04:51:10 AM

Assuming that the above theory is true, we should notice a weakening magnetic field as energy is extracted from the magnet. Is there any evidence of this after using magnets in attract for a while? (Such as in a permanent magnet motor with a coil). How long does a magnet in a motor last since energy is being used from the magnetic field almost continually to assist running the motor?

Hi Liberty,

Loading a magnet moves it's operating point up and down it's BH curve. In doing so energy is used as any BH curve movement causes Hysteresis losses. So any magnet used in a normal PM motor experiences BH curve operating point changes and Hysteresis losses. These Hysteresis losses generate heat in the magnet and may be enough to lift it's operational temperature above it's Curie point and cause the loss of it's Iron atom alignment and the loss of it's external magnetic field.

However the energy to drive the BH curve changes comes from an external energy source and not the magnet, so it's 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons do no work.

But if you let a piece of ferrite loose near a magnet, the two are attracted to each other and the H field of the magnet will need to expend energy to align the Iron atoms in the ferrite (drive it up it's BH curve). The aligning ferrite's Iron atoms will produce a external magnetic field which will result in mutual attraction between the magnet and the ferrite. As both move toward each other, kinetic energy is gained until they collide with each other and the kinetic energy is converted into heat.

So here again we have some of the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons doing work and that work being converted into heat via both BH curve Hysteresis changes / losses in the magnet and in the ferrite and magnet collision.

IronShell3d

newbie123 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 03, 2009, 05:53:12 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 03, 2009, 03:49:22 AM

The only part of that that I find objectionable is the part where you get the energy out of the orbiting electrons.

How can that happen without the electron's energy level -- its quantum orbital level -- decaying by a quantum, that is, a photon, of electromagnetic energy?

And how can the electron's level decay beyond the ground state, or go above the ionization energy, if iron is to remain iron?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

This isn't related to iron, but this company claims to have discovered a sub ground state of hydrogen (hydrino), which supposedly releases lots of energy .. But their theories aren't proven.. And I doubt their information is even public, or available for peer review... (which makes it bogus, until proven otherwise, imo)

IronShell3d · « **Reply #29 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:10:12 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 03, 2009, 03:49:22 AM

The only part of that that I find objectionable is the part where you get the energy out of the orbiting electrons.

How can that happen without the electron's energy level -- its quantum orbital level -- decaying by a quantum, that is, a photon, of electromagnetic energy?

And how can the electron's level decay beyond the ground state, or go above the ionization energy, if iron is to remain iron

Hi TK,

You think the fuel for a reactor stays as it was originally? No it changes as it gives off energy. So too will the Iron atom as it's 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons give off energy.

Oh and by the way, it is good to see you understand that the energy in those 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons originally came from the nuclear fusion furnace in the belly of our young sun before it went Nova and created the planets with all those unwanted Iron atoms. Before that the energy came from the Big Bang. Before that

IronShell3d

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