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Author Topic: There is no Over Unity  (Read 21926 times)

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2009, 02:38:12 PM »
Changing magnetic fields will induce an electric current in wire   ...  That's just the way nature is.

Hi NewBie123,

What I asked you was to think about why this happens?

A non changing magnetic field can and does cause electrons to move. So why don't the electrons in a copper wire move when the wire is exposed to a non changing magnetic field? Why must the magnetic field density change to get electron movement in a wire when free electrons will move when exposed to a non changing magnetic field?

Start thinking outside the square if you want to find what you seek.

IronShell3d

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2009, 04:03:34 PM »
1) Do you have a estimate of how long this stored energy source will last if it is tapped, and what happens to the magnet when it is depleted? 

2) Have you successfully made any devices to extract energy from a permanent magnet?

3) How did you make this discovery?

1) The real question is now many Joules are there per cm3 of Iron as reference the 4 unpaired shell 3d electrons per Iron atom.

2) Yes. Have explained one way to do it.

3) Basics physics.

IronShell3d

Doug1

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2009, 04:20:50 PM »
Why must the magnetic field density change to get electron movement in a wire when free electrons will move when exposed to a non changing magnetic field?

  It's always in a state of change there is a deficit when it is converted to work which is allowing the flow to continue.With out the "it" having a place to go or fill or wiggle back and forth there is nothing but a shinny string or two with a machine or source of electron storage on one end doing nothing.Tesla's energy sink.

newbie123

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2009, 05:18:43 PM »
Hi NewBie123,

What I asked you was to think about why this happens?

I know exactly what happens to ferromagnetic lattice  in a magnetic field, but I'm having  hard time figuring out what you are trying to say.    It seems like you think you've come up with a  way to harness an electrons orbital spin energy (btw, spin and quantum physics isn't anything like our world)  ...   Which, if true,  AFAIK is a brand new concept in science...  So, I have serious doubts that you can actually do this by heating up  magnets and putting them in a coil, or as you previously described  :P.

But an experiment is far more valuable than a theory on this,  so why don't you show us a 'simple' demonstration rather than a thought experiment.

Quote
a magnetic field can and does cause electrons to move. So why don't the electrons in a copper wire move when the wire is exposed to a non changing magnetic field? Why must the magnetic field density change to get electron movement in a wire when free electrons will move when exposed to a non changing magnetic field?

In order for electrons to be affected by a magnetic field they need to be moving through it (have a relative velocity between the field and electron) 

If you have a vacuum tube full of electrons, you can't put a magnet next to it and watch electrons zip around in circles..  That's not how it works.

But if you have a magnetic field, and you're shooting an electron beam at it  the electrons' path will curve depending on the strength of the magnetic field.

As seen here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Cyclotron_motion.jpg

The curve, and how an electron or point charge will behave in a magnetic field can be determined with the Lorentz equation, seen here  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force

« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 05:47:58 PM by newbie123 »

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2009, 05:26:20 PM »
Why must the magnetic field density change to get electron movement in a wire when free electrons will move when exposed to a non changing magnetic field?

  It's always in a state of change there is a deficit when it is converted to work which is allowing the flow to continue.With out the "it" having a place to go or fill or wiggle back and forth there is nothing but a shinny string or two with a machine or source of electron storage on one end doing nothing.Tesla's energy sink.

Hi Doug1,

Lets talk real physics that can be demoed anywhere. Take a transformer. Apply DC to the primary. What comes out of the secondary? This is not a trick question. You may need to do this with a scope and load resistor attached to the secondary so you can observe what happens. What happens may not be what you think.

IronShell3d

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2009, 05:38:49 PM »
Hi NewBie123,

Simple question:

1) Ferrite domain alignment needs energy to overcome the Hysteresis loss, which by the way heats the ferrite both from the physical movement of the aligning domains and heats the ferrite due to the entropy alteration of moving from a random state to a ordered state. Placing a ferrite near a magnet will cause domain alignment and entropy alteration in the ferrite due to the influence of the magnets H field on the ferrite.

So where do you suggest the energy came from which caused the ferrite domain alignment to occur and altered the ferrite entropy from a random state to a ordered state?

IronShell3d

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2009, 05:49:25 PM »
If you have a vacuum tube full of electrons, you can't put a magnet next to it and watch electrons zip around in circles

Hi NewBie123,

What you never played with magnets next to vacuum tubes? You missed a lot of fun. Even better still was placing a magnet against a old colour CRT screen and watching the magnets field patterns displayed in colour on the screen. Try Googling "magnetron".

My question is still not answered. Why does the magnetic field density / direction need to change to cause copper atom to copper atom electron exchange and flow to occur?

IronShell3d

newbie123

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2009, 06:36:09 PM »
Hi NewBie123,

Simple question:

1) Ferrite domain alignment needs energy to overcome the Hysteresis loss, which by the way heats the ferrite both from the physical movement of the aligning domains and heats the ferrite due to the entropy alteration of moving from a random state to a ordered state. Placing a ferrite near a magnet will cause domain alignment and entropy alteration in the ferrite due to the influence of the magnets H field on the ferrite.

So where do you suggest the energy came from which caused the ferrite domain alignment to occur and altered the ferrite entropy from a random state to a ordered state?

Simple answer:

It comes from the power source that is moving the magnet,  which in turn is  causing the Fe magnetic moments (domains) to try to align.   

newbie123

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2009, 06:50:26 PM »
Hi NewBie123,

What you never played with magnets next to vacuum tubes? You missed a lot of fun. Even better still was placing a magnet against a old colour CRT screen and watching the magnets field patterns displayed in colour on the screen. Try Googling "magnetron".

I have before actually.

Quote
My question is still not answered. Why does the magnetic field density / direction need to change to cause copper atom to copper atom electron exchange and flow to occur?

I thought I explained this already, but I'll try again....    If a magnet is just sitting next to a wire  (wrapped around the magnet, or whatever),  electrons (and whole atoms)  aren't excited or moving (other than their movement due to temperature), but a changing magnetic field will 'push' the electrons in one direction (or two directions for alternating directions) and create a current.    But the PUSH is what is required, not just a stationary magnet.

There is a "relative velocity" between the magnet and the electrons in the wire, but unlike the beam image in my previous post, the electrons are more stationary and the magnetic field is moving (the opposite effect).



IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2009, 02:22:14 AM »
Simple answer: It comes from the power source that is moving the magnet,  which in turn is  causing the Fe magnetic moments (domains) to try to align.

Hi NewBie123,

Who said the magnet was moving? Stop thinking about motors as we are discussing a single isolated event.

That event is: does the H field of a stationary magnet cause domain alignment in a nearby stationary ferrite or not?

If it does cause domain alignment, then where does the energy come from that was needed to overcome domain alignment losses (Hysteresis losses) in the ferrite?

Second question which you have not addressed:

If we then release either the magnet or the ferrite or both, they accelerate toward each other and in the process do work and increase the kinetic energy of the moving item.

So where then does the energy come from that caused the kinetic energy increase in the moving items as they accelerate toward each other?

Note the acceleration increases as the distance between them decreases and the ferrite domain alignment become more complete. So here again more and more energy is sourced from somewhere and used to do work.

IronShell3d

IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2009, 02:28:41 AM »
I have before actually.

I thought I explained this already, but I'll try again....    If a magnet is just sitting next to a wire  (wrapped around the magnet, or whatever),  electrons (and whole atoms)  aren't excited or moving (other than their movement due to temperature), but a changing magnetic field will 'push' the electrons in one direction (or two directions for alternating directions) and create a current.    But the PUSH is what is required, not just a stationary magnet.

There is a "relative velocity" between the magnet and the electrons in the wire, but unlike the beam image in my previous post, the electrons are more stationary and the magnetic field is moving (the opposite effect).

Hi NewBie123,

The Copper electron is moving. It is in orbit in the outer shell of the Copper atom.

I suggest you need to think about the binding energy needed to break the outer shell Copper electron away and now that energy is delivered to the spinning, in orbit and moving Copper outer shell electron to cause it to break away and move to an adjacent Copper atom outer shell.

IronShell3d

newbie123

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2009, 03:43:04 AM »
Who said the magnet was moving? Stop thinking about motors as we are discussing a single isolated event.

That event is: does the H field of a stationary magnet cause domain alignment in a nearby stationary ferrite or not?

If you move a magnetic field near a ferromagnetic material, the magnetic domains will align.      Once the magnet is near the material the magnetic moments will stay aligned, until the external magnet is removed.

Quote
If it does cause domain alignment, then where does the energy come from that was needed to overcome domain alignment losses (Hysteresis losses) in the ferrite?

This is the part you seem to be having a hard time understand (or I'm just misunderstanding you).    Once a magnetic field is affecting (magnetizing) a ferromagnetic material, NO ENERGY required to hold the atomic dipoles  in their alignment.  As the magnetic dipoles  align (when you first move in a  magnetic field)  this is when the hysteresis losses occur ... overcoming the repulsion or attraction of a magnet, AFAIK.

Quote
Second question which you have not addressed:

If we then release either the magnet or the ferrite or both, they accelerate toward each other and in the process do work and increase the kinetic energy of the moving item.

So where then does the energy come from that caused the kinetic energy increase in the moving items as they accelerate toward each other?

It's the same energy that was used to separate them.   If you have two magnets that you've separated  (with force), then let them come together ... The energy of the magnets  coming together is the same as the  energy  required to bring them apart.   This energy is stored as potential energy within the system.


IronShell3d

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2009, 04:13:07 AM »
If you move a magnetic field near a ferromagnetic material, the magnetic domains will align. Once the magnet is near the material the magnetic moments will stay aligned, until the external magnet is removed.

This is the part you seem to be having a hard time understand (or I'm just misunderstanding you). Once a magnetic field is affecting (magnetizing) a ferromagnetic material, NO ENERGY required to hold the atomic dipoles in their alignment. As the magnetic dipoles align (when you first move in a  magnetic field)  this is when the hysteresis losses occur ... overcoming the repulsion or attraction of a magnet, AFAIK.

It's the same energy that was used to separate them. If you have two magnets that you've separated  (with force), then let them come together ... The energy of the magnets coming together is the same as the energy  required to bring them apart.   This energy is stored as potential energy within the system.

Hi NewBie123,

Obtaining domain alignment requires real energy to overcome the frictional losses as the domains move internally inside the ferrite from random to aligned. The entropy level inside the ferrite also changes. So lets focus on the energy input into the ferrite that is needed to overcome the real frictional losses as the domains rotate into alignment with the applied H field from the magnet.

Once aligned there is then an attractive force generated (no repulsive forces in ferromagnetic to magnet interactions). If either the magnet or ferrite or both are free to move, there is energy needed to cause the movement / acceleration / gained kinetic energy.

So both the act of overcoming frictional losses during domain alignment in the ferrite and the movement of either or both the magnet / ferrite toward each other require the use of energy.

What I keep asking you is to understand where this energy is sourced from? By the way both energy uses do turn into heat, which can be measured.

As for what happens when you try to pull the ferrite away from the magnet, that has nothing to do with this discussion so lets focus on the initial domain alignment and mass movement energy requirements that need to be sourced from some energy source.

IronShell3d

newbie123

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2009, 07:06:47 AM »
Hi NewBie123,

Obtaining domain alignment requires real energy to overcome the frictional losses as the domains move internally inside the ferrite from random to aligned.
I'm familiar with this concept.
Quote
The entropy level inside the ferrite also changes.
But not with this one....   Do you have a reference?

Quote
So lets focus on the energy input into the ferrite that is needed to overcome the real frictional losses as the domains rotate into alignment with the applied H field from the magnet.

Once aligned there is then an attractive force generated (no repulsive forces in ferromagnetic to magnet interactions). If either the magnet or ferrite or both are free to move, there is energy needed to cause the movement / acceleration / gained kinetic energy.

So both the act of overcoming frictional losses during domain alignment in the ferrite and the movement of either or both the magnet / ferrite toward each other require the use of energy.

There really is  no mystery here, but I'm not sure what else to say....  The energy required to overcome frictional losses in the domains comes  from the two objects coming together and accelerating toward each other.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 04:07:15 PM by newbie123 »

HeairBear

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Re: There is no Over Unity
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2009, 08:39:59 AM »
Maybe you could make some illustrations or a mini movie for him...  to help him out a bit?