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Author Topic: Johann Bessler information  (Read 34465 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2008, 11:59:54 PM »
G'day all,

I have been asked to repost my analysis of Bessler's use of the pendulum in his wheels.



Regards the wheel at Merseburg, and incidentally the wheel at Weissenstein which shows a similar arrangement I would like to say the following.

(http://www.besslerwheel.com/images/Merseburg_wheel2.jpg)

If you have a look at the drawing you will notice that on the left hand side it shows the same wheel shown from the side. There are actually two pendula involved, one in front of the wheel, one behind the hammer mill the wheel is driving. Both are driven by the main shaft without any other connection to the machine shown.

The same arrangement is here at the Weissenstein wheel.

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/weissenstein.jpg)

I have used the Weissenstein illustration for my analysis as it is a better depiction of the principle and a clearer scan of Bessler's original drawing (courtesy University of Goettingen). Only the colour and my comment regarding the centre of gravity have been added, otherwise the picture is original.

A closer look at the pendulum reveals that in reality it is not a pendulum at all. The two counter weights at the top shift the centre of gravity of the device very close to the fulcrum. This arrangement virtually cancels any pendulum effect. So what is it and why is it there?

It is my assessment that it is a very sensitive indicator of the balance of the entire device at any given point.

Like this:

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/balance.jpg)
Can you see the parallels?

So what was Bessler doing there? The answer is as simple as it is obvious.

Bessler used the device to set and adjust his weights inside the wheel during construction! After the wheel was built there was no further need for it and in fact in some of Bessler's designs he dispensed with it altogether though it is my guess he would have still used it during construction. A further indication that my analysis is probably correct is that in the earlier Merseburg wheel the device is much cruder in construction, indicating that Bessler was very much aware that the more precise the device the more accurate his measurements became. Hence the much greater care spent in its construction in the Weissenstein wheel.

It utterly amazes me that in almost 300 years no-one I know of has ever commented on this and that even today people that study Bessler still call it a pendulum when it is very clear that it is not.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2008, 11:59:54 PM »

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2008, 12:51:03 AM »
Very good, one question though, if the toy page wasn't done by Bessler, then how can this help us with the prime mover as no one had found perpetual motion before Bessler...

Whats an inverted pendulum?

Also thats a good point about something that is balanced but unstable, making the balance point weak seems a good idea, I have always thought that if inside the wheel the mechanism was unsteady, it would have more chance, I think for part of a working wheel is that everything must be independent and not controlled as something that is controlled is more weak I think, and if you think about it, something that cannot balance would be very tricky to hold in your hand without it either falling out or collapsing....

Thats probably why Bessler said that "a knock could bring the wheel to a grinding halt"...
He also said "the wheel must come into being" might mean that the weights had to work with each other but was unstable and relied on itself to keep itself up...

Basically everything must of been free...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 01:18:45 AM by Alexioco »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 12:57:35 AM »
Only because Bessler used someone else's drawing as an example that does not mean he is not trying to show us something.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 12:57:35 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2008, 01:04:38 AM »
Only because Bessler used someone else's drawing as an example that does not mean he is not trying to show us something.

Hans von Lieven

by the way I edited my post

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2008, 01:18:58 AM »
The picture below is an inverted pendulum. It needs a very small push to upset it's equilibrium.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2008, 01:18:58 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2008, 01:21:54 AM »
ah yeah, so once pushed gravity will help take it out of equilibrium, how does the yellow ball balance at the top? This is getting rather interesting  :)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2008, 01:25:59 AM »
If it is perfectly perpendicular it will stay

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2008, 01:25:59 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2008, 01:30:02 AM »
WOW now that is called a WEAK balance, if that was the only balance a wheel had then it would perpetuate with ease... So about the spinning top, you say it might represent an inverted pendulum?

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2008, 01:32:55 AM »
Yes, possibly with some mechanism inside that upsets it's balance in certain positions

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2008, 01:32:55 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2008, 01:42:05 AM »
Yes, possibly with some mechanism inside that upsets it's balance in certain positions

May I add?

If you get a long inverted pendulum {strong spring} with a 5 pound weight on the end, then under the pivot attach a short pendulum with a big weight that weighs JUST enough to keep the small weight up, then once a small force is applied to the top weight it will fall down then come up again...

It would have an upward force equal to its downward like Bessler said...
Also calculate the distance the large weight has to move to lift the small weight...
Could this be something?


Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2008, 03:41:16 PM »
@hans

Thank you very much for your translation and thoughts on the toys page. I was of some of the same thinking but without the knowledge to give myself any legitimacy i would have been recieved as a looney bird. I believe that in your translation we are being told to look at an "action" about a point that they all share. And that i can grasp a little better than the holy grail philosphy that the wheel is represented in that picture. 

I was meaning to try and find specific translations that i feel are materially being misunderstood in some of the early Mt's. I will try and find them and their texts. If you have time to peek at a few more.


Dave

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2008, 03:41:16 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2008, 05:39:18 PM »

I was meaning to try and find specific translations that i feel are materially being misunderstood in some of the early Mt's. I will try and find them and their texts. If you have time to peek at a few more.


Dave

Not a problem Dave, I see what I can do.

Hans

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2008, 08:58:04 AM »
Quote
I can neither prove nor disprove that Bessler had a working wheel, since I was not there and did not have a chance to examine it.  If he had one that works, it was not based on gravity, but something else.  A gravity wheel alone can never work.

Furthermore, have you even considered what water and wind are?  Water power is directly derived from gravity, as it is merely falling water.  So to compare water and gravity makes no sense.   And to call falling water a conservative force is ridiculous.  You have waves of molecules transferring their kinetic energy to the wheel, that is all.

Wind is not much different.  It is affected not only by gravity but atmospheric pressure and other factors, but the end result is the same - series of molecules transferring their kinetic energy. You cannot compare it to a force like magnetism or gravity.

OK Util.  Firstly you have taken the analogy from my web site out of context.  I specifically mentioned that the conservative effect is localised.  That means that for the windmill blade, the wind is a continuous force pushing against it, like gravity on an object with mass, and at that scale it has exactly the same features as a conservative force.  You will find also that in wind physics, the wind is clasaified as a conservative force.  As a localised feature it is irrelevant where or how the wind originated.

Secondly, these are analogies; ways of looking at problems and likening them to other similar instances to try to understand them

I have been arguing this pont for ten years and if you cannot accept it that's fine,  but there are many who do.

John

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2008, 06:31:39 PM »
Thank you for your translation, Hans.  Good work.

Your version:-
Quote
5 children?s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

 This what I made of it but I don't speak German.

Either "5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different way.?

Or alternatively, ?Fifthly - the children are instrumental, through their play, in causing the force - through some particular impulse - to be transferred from the abandoned foot to be applied to the other."

Any comments welcomed.

John

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2008, 08:41:17 PM »
Thank you for your translation, Hans.  Good work.

Your version:-5 children?s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.
 This what I made of it but I don't speak German.

Either "5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different way.?

Or alternatively, ?Fifthly - the children are instrumental, through their play, in causing the force - through some particular impulse - to be transferred from the abandoned foot to be applied to the other."

Any comments welcomed.

John

G'day John,

I am sorry, but you, or your translator, is trying to read something into this passage that simply is not there. Bessler is being very specific here. I have given you the literal translation, not an interpretation. The difficulty in your version arises because of the interpretation of the word "Spiele" which your translator reads as games. This would be a fair and accurate translation if we were talking about contemporary German. But we are not!

Modern German makes a distinction between game (Spiel) and toy (Spielzeug, or game apparatus, if you wish). Medieval German and Renaissance German (which is really what we are talking about here) did not make such distinction. The word "Spiel" applies to both and the interpretation is context dependent. There are two clues as to what is meant here. First, the obvious one, the pictures of toys. Secondly the use of the word "Joch" for which I gave three possible, but related, meanings. Since a game cannot possibly have a "Joch" it is clear that he is referring to an object! Which means that the correct translation of the word "Spiel" here is toy and not game.

It is not enough to speak German in order to translate Bessler. An intimate acquaintance with the language usage of the period in question is also required.

I will give you now my interpretation of what Bessler is saying here.

"There is something special in these 5 toys in the way they move, which can be applied in a different way".

Hans von Lieven

 

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