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Author Topic: Johann Bessler information  (Read 31594 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2008, 07:44:22 PM »
@ alexioco,

That's just it, I think the spinning top is an interpretation of the re-draw artist. Like I said I would love to have a look at the original.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2008, 07:44:22 PM »

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2008, 08:23:05 PM »
@ alexioco,

That's just it, I think the spinning top is an interpretation of the re-draw artist. Like I said I would love to have a look at the original.

Hans von Lieven

What do you mean by re-draw artist?

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2008, 08:56:46 PM »
That is NOT Bessler's original drawing Alexioco.

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2008, 08:56:46 PM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2008, 09:52:10 PM »
That is NOT Bessler's original drawing Alexioco.

No but its the same though, but still, something might have been missed, I would like to the the original drawing too, then we could have a better idea, I think I saw it once before in a post somewhere, can't remember where though

Offline am1ll3r

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2008, 10:26:34 PM »


When I was younger I used to play with one of them, the bottom of it is heavier than the top part, yet when it is spun the light part lifts the heavier part right up through CF...

There is also someone who went in front of top scientists at NASA to demonstrate how an extremely
heavy weight can be lifted lightly by a man...

The weight was spun on the end of a stick thing then lifted it up, what was happening was that as the weight span, CF through its weight up and the weight become light, but those ignorant scientists told him to basically get lost as its impossible, they stuck with what Newton said and denied this new discovery...

I can't remember much about it, maybe you have seen it?

Ill try to find the footage...


Alexioco have a look here...

Eric Laithwaite may be your guy

http://www.gyroscopes.org/1974lecture.asp
10. Denis lifts a 18lb gyroscope with a 6lb shaft running at 2000rpm.

and

http://www.gyroscopes.org/heretic.asp

thanks


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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2008, 10:26:34 PM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 11:26:45 PM »
Hi Hans .. an excellent idea you have there - the contemporary tilting bird toy with partial linear pendulum action does indeed act in a similar fashion to C & D [the hammermen] of the toy page - I too wondered how you made the association with the hand drawn figure at the bottom of the toy page - I assume you think it looks somewhat like a pendulum bob of sorts - John has speculated before that it possibly was an after thought in an attempt to further strengthen his claim of priority should his secret be discovered prematurely, so it was obviously an important addition with a clear purpose in mind.

I have a copy of John Collins MT which faithfully reproduces Bessler's woodcuts [used for printing purposes] - I can tell you that it is virtually indistinguishable from Bill McMurtry's [ovyyus, on BW.com, or at www.orffyre.com] coral draw rendition - to all intensive purposes it very much resembles a child spinning top [string wound], IMO.

N.B. it appears it could be a whistling variety, though some say that the exterior markings resemble an eye, though for what purpose he would mark it like that I have no idea, other than to pointedly say "information for those with eyes able to see" - "for your eyes only", in contemporary terms, aka, a discerning mind - JMO's.

The rather more obvious conclusion to draw is that it represents a component of Cp forces & inertia as necessary for the functioning of his wheels - many feel that this is the correct interpretation, assuming that the figure is indeed a spinning top - so I would also be interested in your thoughts after having studied the woodcut reproduction - if you don't want to lay out a few dollars for John's book then perhaps the Kassel library can oblige ?

Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 03:23:50 PM »
Members only section of BW, which most of you now are

Al & Hans, bills scan of mt 138, at bottom of this page.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17250#17250.


@hans, i'd be very interested in  your translation of the inscription and the resemblance to writing style of bessler. Is it even him?

Or was this just a test board that was carved on to test skill/practice. And now its the holy grail of bessler clues.

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 03:23:50 PM »
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Offline utilitarian

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 06:06:38 PM »
Surprisingly I was aware of all that and you are not the first to argue the point.  Oddly, you acknowledge that Bessler may have had a working wheel, so how do you explain it - or can't you even be bothered to try?

John

I can neither prove nor disprove that Bessler had a working wheel, since I was not there and did not have a chance to examine it.  If he had one that works, it was not based on gravity, but something else.  A gravity wheel alone can never work.

Furthermore, have you even considered what water and wind are?  Water power is directly derived from gravity, as it is merely falling water.  So to compare water and gravity makes no sense.   And to call falling water a conservative force is ridiculous.  You have waves of molecules transferring their kinetic energy to the wheel, that is all.

Wind is not much different.  It is affected not only by gravity but atmospheric pressure and other factors, but the end result is the same - series of molecules transferring their kinetic energy. You cannot compare it to a force like magnetism or gravity.

If you are aware of all these arguments, I am surprised you do not have a better answer for them.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 06:22:55 PM »
I can neither prove nor disprove that Bessler had a working wheel, since I was not there and did not have a chance to examine it.  If he had one that works, it was not based on gravity, but something else.  A gravity wheel alone can never work.

Furthermore, have you even considered what water and wind are?  Water power is directly derived from gravity, as it is merely falling water.  So to compare water and gravity makes no sense.   And to call falling water a conservative force is ridiculous.  You have waves of molecules transferring their kinetic energy to the wheel, that is all.

Wind is not much different.  It is affected not only by gravity but atmospheric pressure and other factors, but the end result is the same - series of molecules transferring their kinetic energy. You cannot compare it to a force like magnetism or gravity.

If you are aware of all these arguments, I am surprised you do not have a better answer for them.

A gravity wheel alone can work, through the use of movable weights, and there are endless ways to make them move, so how can you possibly assume that its impossible for a pure gravity wheel? Have you tried every combination?

If weights in a wheel are positioned like so

(http://i31.tinypic.com/r7910i.jpg)

Then the wheel has to move, now if those weights are kept like that as the wheel turns, the wheel will perpetuate, now get a second lot of weights to keep those weights up, the weights that keep those weights up can also move in way to keep the wheel over balanced...
There must be thousands of ways to do this and the answer will be very simple once known...

I mean, if you study it, the weights only have to move from the shaft to the rim and we have perpetual motion...

Maths and science are good, but they wont prove anything, but a creative mind will, then the maths can be looked at...

Alex

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 06:22:55 PM »
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Offline utilitarian

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 06:45:10 PM »
A gravity wheel alone can work, through the use of movable weights, and there are endless ways to make them move, so how can you possibly assume that its impossible for a pure gravity wheel? Have you tried every combination?

I do not have to try every combination.  Sadly, to make a gravity wheel spin, what comes down, must go up.  You can never get more energy from a falling object than what is required to lift it to the place where it started from, so after frictional losses, you will always come out in the red, no matter what combination you try.

Offline Gustav22

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 06:49:55 PM »
All arguments about energy and work are futile because the physics priests redefined the meanings of these words to make them fit to their explanations ....
Regarding gravity driven systems, for me the best way to figure things out, is to find the system's center of mass and try to establish, where it is located relative to the wheel axis.

However, I agree to the fact that a wind and a water wheel can only work, because such arrangements make use of a 'medium' (wind and water) which permits the force of gravity to create a torque on the wheel.
Consequently such a medium has to be provided.
Let's provide it then, shall we?
Some recyclable mass, able to oscillate, should suffice.

Scissors mechanisms as suggested by Bessler and others come to mind.

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 06:49:55 PM »
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Offline Dgraphic911

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 07:01:56 PM »
I do not have to try every combination.  Sadly, to make a gravity wheel spin, what comes down, must go up.  You can never get more energy from a falling object than what is required to lift it to the place where it started from, so after frictional losses, you will always come out in the red, no matter what combination you try.

A gravity wheel alone can work, through the use of movable weights, and there are endless ways to make them move, so how can you possibly assume that its impossible for a pure gravity wheel? Have you tried every combination?

If weights in a wheel are positioned like so..........




Interestingly enough you are both 100% correct.


Offline utilitarian

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 07:23:34 PM »
All arguments about energy and work are futile because the physics priests redefined the meanings of these words to make them fit to their explanations ....

Physicists have defined these meanings because they are consistent with what is observed. Had the physicists observed something else, then they would have defined the meanings accordingly.  They are not making this up.  You cannot get more energy out of a falling object than what is required to lift it to its original position.  If you doubt this, take a see-saw and play with it.  Take two objects of equal weight and see if you can make one lift the other.  Sure, you can try to use leverage, but then one of the objects does not go as high.

In a nutshell, this is why gravity wheels cannot work.  You can try to confuse and trick yourself with elaborate setups, but all they will do is fail in elaborate-looking fashion.

Look, all this is educational in some way, I suppose, but honestly, gravity wheels are a waste of time.  I am wasting my time even writing about them, but I am hoping that through my effort, you guys will waste less of your time.  You guys could be learning about things that actually have a chance of working.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 09:32:00 PM »
Physicists have defined these meanings because they are consistent with what is observed. Had the physicists observed something else, then they would have defined the meanings accordingly.  They are not making this up.  You cannot get more energy out of a falling object than what is required to lift it to its original position.  If you doubt this, take a see-saw and play with it.  Take two objects of equal weight and see if you can make one lift the other.  Sure, you can try to use leverage, but then one of the objects does not go as high.

In a nutshell, this is why gravity wheels cannot work.  You can try to confuse and trick yourself with elaborate setups, but all they will do is fail in elaborate-looking fashion.

Look, all this is educational in some way, I suppose, but honestly, gravity wheels are a waste of time.  I am wasting my time even writing about them, but I am hoping that through my effort, you guys will waste less of your time.  You guys could be learning about things that actually have a chance of working.

Making an object go higher than what it started at is over unity and yes you are correct, how can it go higher than it started without energy? But weights going from the rim back to the axle is not going higher than it started...

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 11:21:28 PM »
G?day all.

@Dgraphic

Thank you for the link to the original page of MT138.

The inscription is written in old German script later known in slightly modified form as Suetterlin. It reads:

5 Kinder Spiele in welchem Joch auch was besonderes Arbeit, wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss.

I have included an enlarged picture of the comments below.

The key to the translation lies in the interpretation of the word Joch, the common meaning is yoke, but in this context it could also mean fulcrum or pivot.

The literal translation is:

5 children?s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

So much for the translation.

General comments:

The woodcut (if that?s what it is, more on this later) is almost certainly NOT the work of Bessler. The annotations with a high degree of certainty are. The depiction of the figures and the comparatively crude execution are in stark contrast to the other illustrations and point to an earlier period, at my guess at least a hundred years earlier.
If it is indeed a woodcut that would support my argument, but without close examination of the original I cannot tell.

As to the figure on the bottom, that is not part of the drawing but was added by Bessler in his own hand to the print. This puts an entirely different complexion on the meaning, and invalidates my earlier analysis. What I think now is that Bessler showed an inverted pendulum in the shape of a spinning top that is hollowed out on the centre with a cylindrical bore. Such a contraption is notoriously unstable and needs little force to upset one way or the other. Ideal when you are trying to disturb an equilibrium with very little energy. I have drawn my interpretation next to Bessler?s drawing. See below.

As to the woodcuts, they were not anymore in common use in Bessler?s time having been superseded by etchings and engravings long before. Especially for technical drawings etchings had been in use since around 1550 and were preferred because they were clearer and easier to produce.

There is rumoured to be another copy of Maschinen Traktate somewhere in England. If true, it would be interesting to see if those copies are annotated. Does anyone know about this?

In my view the pictures in Maschinen Traktate are NOT Bessler?s work. The handwritten comments in all probability are.

Hans von Lieven

 

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