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Author Topic: Johann Bessler information  (Read 31591 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 01:26:45 AM »
@ John Collins

G'day John,

I remember reading somewhere that Bessler used a stork bill as a spring or something. Have you heard about this and what is the reference, it could be important because the German word for stork bill ( Storchschnabel ) has other connotations. It could be a mistranslation.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 01:26:45 AM »

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2008, 08:17:19 AM »
You're partly right Hans, Bessler does use the word Storchschnabel and draws one too.  But there is no explanationof it being used as a spring.  He only ever comments on the use of a spring in response to a question about them.  He said that they were used but not in the way you might think, he also says that storksbills were used but again not in the usual way.

John

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 08:25:08 AM »
I agree in part Eric, but rather than different kinds of wheels being matched to the drawings I am looking at different drawings containing different parts of the same wheel.

I think he used different designs of mechanism to drive his different wheels but they were all based on an original simple concept.  I think that once the concept is understood we can devise different ways of using it and I think that Besler's wheel designs evolved from the original concept and that each was an improvement on the previous one.

John

PS Thanks for the 5 book order Eric - they're on their way to you.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 09:15:52 AM by John Collins »

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 08:25:08 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2008, 09:20:17 AM »
You're partly right Hans, Bessler does use the word Storchschnabel and draws one too.  But there is no explanationof it being used as a spring.  He only ever comments on the use of a spring in response to a question about them.  He said that they were used but not in the way you might think, he also says that storksbills were used but again not in the usual way.

John

Thanks John,

I would really like to see the passages you are talking about. You see in German Storchschnabel is the common technical term for a pantograph. The device and the term was around before Bessler. The first pantograph was constructed in 1603 by Christoph Scheiner, who used the device to re-create diagrams, but he wrote about the invention over 27 years later, in "Pantographice" (Rome 1631). This is why I am so interested. The implications are obvious.

Hans von Lieven

EDIT: For those of you that don't know what a pantograph is, here is an excellent web page where you can play with one in a java applet. You will immediately see how that applies to Bessler.

http://www.ies.co.jp/math/products/geo1/applets/panta/panta.html

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2008, 10:07:21 AM »
I'll get back to you with that information Hans.  Please allow me several hours to respond as we have a family troubles to cope with.

John

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2008, 10:07:21 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2008, 10:02:39 PM »
A further thought in that context hans & john - the pantograph is similar to the variations of the 'A's drawn in MT - as you know Bessler, while numbering & lettering his designs in MT, uses two styles of 'A's throughout his series - sometimes he uses them as you see them now [standard font] & then suddenly he changes to the pantograph looking versions [with the drop v cross-bar instead of the -- cross-bar] & they interchange throughout without seeming pattern.

It is also probably no coincidence that the pantograph form looks very much like a section of storksbill or scissor lift or jack section.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2008, 11:37:33 PM »
A further thought in that context hans & john - the pantograph is similar to the variations of the 'A's drawn in MT - as you know Bessler, while numbering & lettering his designs in MT, uses two styles of 'A's throughout his series - sometimes he uses them as you see them now [standard font] & then suddenly he changes to the pantograph looking versions [with the drop v cross-bar instead of the -- cross-bar] & they interchange throughout without seeming pattern.

It is also probably no coincidence that the pantograph form looks very much like a section of storksbill or scissor lift or jack section.

Fletcher, very very clever, spot on my friend, spot on, I noticed his A's too and couldn't understand why he wrote them like he did, you are absolutely right there, I think you have just hit on something big which will help me and other people and yourself to get closer to his wheel, I'm so impressed with what you just said...

I came up with this about a month ago, could this be some way he used it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvcmhDQCqNk

Its not quite the same but...

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2008, 11:37:33 PM »
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Offline utilitarian

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2008, 12:02:39 AM »
I have a feeling that little is known here about Johann Bessler, also known as Orffyreus, so I will just say that further information is available from www.free-energy.co.uk.  This web site which has been on-line since 1997 is the result of a lifetime of research into the life of the inventor.  I have tried to spread information about him but it is a slow process and time is short with the incredible rising oil prices.

John Collins

It's great that you compiled this info about Bessler, but your conclusions could not be more wrongheaded:

http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/why_gravitywheels_work.HTM

You basically state that because wind and water are conservative forces, and they can be used to drive a wheel, then so can gravity.

Well, water and wind are not conservative forces.  You are dealing with streams of molecules in motion, which have kinetic energy, and that kinetic energy can be transferred to a wheel.  This is fundamentally different from conservative forces such as gravity, elastic, or magentism.  Everything you conclude is based on this flawed assumption.  Sure, you can write volumes based on this one flawed assumption, and everything would seem really rosy, until you actually try to make something work.

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 07:42:54 AM »
I used wind and water as analogies for gravity, utilitarian.  My point is that even though they are not regarded as conservative forces, as gravity is, they act like conservative forces.  Conservative forces are measured by the work the force does on an object in moving it from A to B and the path is independent or irrelevant.  This is so in gravity and in the wind and water analogies.

You are saying, in effect, that wind and water forces are non-conservative forces.  In non-conservative (or dissipative) force, the work done in going from A to B depends on the path taken. Examples: friction and air resistance.  Although the wind may dissipate at any time, as long as it continues to blow the windmill reacts to a conservative force.

Yes its true  there are streams of molecules in motion, which have kinetic energy, and that kinetic energy can be transferred to a wheel but this is on a micro(nano) scale whereas we are dealing with straightforward empirical evidence viewable with the naked eye.

Finally I shall be presenting the strongest evidence that Bessler's machine was real and not a fraud, and in that case there will follow discussion about how we can explain it within the laws of physics, and that is what all I am trying to do now.

John

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 07:42:54 AM »
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Offline utilitarian

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2008, 08:22:00 AM »
My point is that even though they are not regarded as conservative forces, as gravity is, they act like conservative forces.  Conservative forces are measured by the work the force does on an object in moving it from A to B and the path is independent or irrelevant.  This is so in gravity and in the wind and water analogies.

Wind and water are not conservative forces and do not act like conservative forces.  No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

A force is about acceleration.  It is measured in Newtons, and one Newton is equal to the force required to accelerate the mass of 1kg by 1 meter per second, squared.  Neither wind nor water can do this.  All wind and water can do is bring the object they are impacting to a speed equal to the speed of the wind/water, but no faster.

Maybe Bessler had a working wheel, and maybe he didn't, but your theory is not going to explain anything.

Offline rlortie

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2008, 08:34:03 AM »
Air and  Wind have gradient; Changes is atmospheric density attempting to equalize.
Water has gradient; In the form of depth and fall.
A battery has gradient between negative and positive poles.

It is said that anything containing a gradient can supply potential energy.

Gravity has gradient between ground level and free orbiting space. Probably the highest percentage of gradient of  the above mentioned. Yet we call it a conservative force.

Sure somebody is going to say; yes but the sun is responsible for  wind and water usage, Even charging a battery relates to  sun in one form or another. But if it were not for gravity none of the above would exist!

My bottom line is; Gravity has potential, we just have not learned to utilize it yet.

 Remember there was once a time when nobody wanted anything to do with that black gooey stuff called oil.  We learned to utilize it and now look at the pickle we are in.

"If someone can write about it, man will eventually build it" Jules Verne science fiction writer.

If you have not figured it out yet; I am a strong advocate of  John Collins beliefs, I  may not totally agree with some of his debating analogy, but I stand behind him and am very optimistic that we will soon discover and build gravity powered machines not unlike the discovery of the internal combustion engine.

Ralph 



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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2008, 08:34:03 AM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2008, 09:04:59 AM »
utilitarian

All wind and water can do is bring the object they are impacting to a speed equal to the speed of the wind/water, but no faster.

Ah ha! this is true but Sir Isaac Newton left us a loop hole where as mass can be moved faster.  You seem like an educated man, so I will let you attempt to figure it out. If the Laws of motion is read and part three is scrutinized by the perceptive and discerning one will realize the validity and awaken to the fact that masses can by moved and accelerated) to uncontrollable speeds,

[In the International System of Units (also known as SI, after the initials of Syst?me International), acceleration, a, is measured in meters per second per second. Mass is measured in kilograms; force, F, in newtons. A newton is defined as the force necessary to impart to a mass of 1 kg an acceleration of 1 m/sec/sec; this is equivalent to about 0.2248 lb.
A massive object will require a greater force for a given acceleration than a small, light object. What is remarkable is that mass, which is a measure of the inertia of an object (inertia is its reluctance to change velocity), is also a measure of the gravitational attraction that the object exerts on other objects. It is surprising and profound that the inertial property and the gravitational property are determined by the same thing.}

[Mechanics," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.]

 I do not state this lightly and refer you to 'sGravesande's  exceptional  writings as well as that ofGottfried wihelm Leibniz.

Ralph   
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 09:25:00 AM by rlortie »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2008, 09:55:36 AM »
G'day all,

For what it's worth I would like to follow up on the pantograph idea. Amongst the drawings in the Maschinen Traktate there is one  drawing out of character. I am talking about MT 138. This is where he goes into pantographs using children's toys as an example. Picture C and D are toys that use the pantograph idea. Also picture E, what Fletcher calls, quite rightly, a scissor lift. Again we are talking about an antique toy that was known as the Nuernberger Schere ( Nuremberg scisssors).

What puzzled me for a while was the drawing at the bottom, which didn't seem to mean anything, until I remembered an antique toy constructed along a similar vein. There were a number of variations of it.

It uses a pendulum to achieve the same effect as C and D.

I made an animation here of the principle behind the device. I think that Bessler hid some of his clues in this particular drawing. As to the interpretation of A and B, I can only guess. I wish I had access to a good scan of the original MT 138. Perhaps that would tell me something this redrawn sketch does not show.

Anyway, here it is, tell me what you think.

Hans von Lieven

(http://keelytech.com/overunity/besslertoy.gif)

Offline John Collins

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2008, 02:59:16 PM »
Quote
Wind and water are not conservative forces and do not act like conservative forces.  No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

A force is about acceleration.  It is measured in Newtons, and one Newton is equal to the force required to accelerate the mass of 1kg by 1 meter per second, squared.  Neither wind nor water can do this.  All wind and water can do is bring the object they are impacting to a speed equal to the speed of the wind/water, but no faster.

Maybe Bessler had a working wheel, and maybe he didn't, but your theory is not going to explain anything

Surprisingly I was aware of all that and you are not the first to argue the point.  Oddly, you acknowledge that Bessler may have had a working wheel, so how do you explain it - or can't you even be bothered to try?

John

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Johann Bessler information
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 03:43:51 PM »
G'day all,

For what it's worth I would like to follow up on the pantograph idea. Amongst the drawings in the Maschinen Traktate there is one  drawing out of character. I am talking about MT 138. This is where he goes into pantographs using children's toys as an example. Picture C and D are toys that use the pantograph idea. Also picture E, what Fletcher calls, quite rightly, a scissor lift. Again we are talking about an antique toy that was known as the Nuernberger Schere ( Nuremberg scisssors).

What puzzled me for a while was the drawing at the bottom, which didn't seem to mean anything, until I remembered an antique toy constructed along a similar vein. There were a number of variations of it.

It uses a pendulum to achieve the same effect as C and D.

I made an animation here of the principle behind the device. I think that Bessler hid some of his clues in this particular drawing. As to the interpretation of A and B, I can only guess. I wish I had access to a good scan of the original MT 138. Perhaps that would tell me something this redrawn sketch does not show.

Anyway, here it is, tell me what you think.

Hans von Lieven

(http://keelytech.com/overunity/besslertoy.gif)

I like this pantograph theory, I think this is on the right track, your mechanism there looks very interesting, I'm not quite sure what it has to do with the spinning top at the bottom though...

When I was younger I used to play with one of them, the bottom of it is heavier than the top part, yet when it is spun the light part lifts the heavier part right up through CF...

There is also someone who went in front of top scientists at NASA to demonstrate how an extremely
heavy weight can be lifted lightly by a man...

The weight was spun on the end of a stick thing then lifted it up, what was happening was that as the weight span, CF through its weight up and the weight become light, but those ignorant scientists told him to basically get lost as its impossible, they stuck with what Newton said and denied this new discovery...

I can't remember much about it, maybe you have seen it?

Ill try to find the footage...

 

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