Author Topic: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.) (Read 340948 times)

sparks · « **Reply #720 on:** July 31, 2008, 08:58:56 PM »

Quote from: Grumpy on July 31, 2008, 07:42:22 PM

Anyone ever seen a waveform like this?

This is from Ossie's magnet motor - Bedini-ish type.

I have seen similar (a little sweeter) from a Newman motor.

Yes I have. It looks like a variable frequency induction motor drive waveform output. Lots of little energy bursts slamming into counteremf low freq.

Spider · « **Reply #721 on:** July 31, 2008, 09:49:48 PM »

Gentlemen, my compliments, you have build some very nice coils in such a short time

Greetings Spider.

EMdevices · « **Reply #722 on:** July 31, 2008, 10:03:30 PM »

@wattsup,Â not sure what you're doing there, but I suspect you're not hooked up correctly to see any delay.Â Grumpy's diagram on the previous page is not wired correctly (scope in the wrong place).

Take a look at my new diagram below.

What happens is that when the voltage of the square wave transitions, the iron coil doesn't conduct current right away for that particular polarity, and a voltage drop occurs across itÂ (V = L di/dt)Â and as the current increases other components get loaded and carry the voltage drop, so basicaly this is seen on the scope as a delay(with time pulses, and as a phase shift with sinewaves).

In your case, your Z = jwL,Â (an inductor)Â and for this you will not see a delay since I suspect the inductance of the iron coil is a very small percentage of the inductance of the larger coil.Â What "Z" you use makes a difference.Â Â

Anyway, that's my take on this whole delay business.Â If you understand phasors you will see how a coilÂ (and a capacitor) introduce a 90 degree phase shift.Â The iron coil just has more inductance per length of wire compared to copper, but it can't compete with a copper coil that has a huge number of turns.

EM

P.S.Â Obviously, both probes are referenced to ground, just like the signal.Â

forest · « **Reply #723 on:** July 31, 2008, 10:06:57 PM »

Quote from: Spider on July 31, 2008, 09:49:48 PM

Gentlemen, my compliments, you have build some very nice coils in such a short time

Greetings Spider.

May I ask if your coil is generating sound ?

Spider · « **Reply #724 on:** July 31, 2008, 10:26:58 PM »

@forest,

I havent heard any sounds yet. Maybe with high voltage, but i am still working on that.

@wattsup.

In the beginning I made some smaller diameter iron coils, about 10 mm and I saw hardly any delay.
Try a 30 to 35 mm diameter coil, 30 turns. The winds as close as possible. Thin wire.
Did you use a steel spring as coil? I think pure iron is best. Its hard to get tho, most is covered with zinc or something.

Greetings Spider.

Grumpy · « **Reply #725 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:07:47 AM »

Quote from: EMdevices on July 31, 2008, 10:03:30 PM

@wattsup, not sure what you're doing there, but I suspect you're not hooked up correctly to see any delay. Grumpy's diagram on the previous page is not wired correctly (scope in the wrong place).

Take a look at my new diagram below.

What happens is that when the voltage of the square wave transitions, the iron coil doesn't conduct current right away for that particular polarity, and a voltage drop occurs across it (V = L di/dt) and as the current increases other components get loaded and carry the voltage drop, so basicaly this is seen on the scope as a delay(with time pulses, and as a phase shift with sinewaves).

In your case, your Z = jwL, (an inductor) and for this you will not see a delay since I suspect the inductance of the iron coil is a very small percentage of the inductance of the larger coil. What "Z" you use makes a difference.

Anyway, that's my take on this whole delay business. If you understand phasors you will see how a coil (and a capacitor) introduce a 90 degree phase shift. The iron coil just has more inductance per length of wire compared to copper, but it can't compete with a copper coil that has a huge number of turns.

EM

P.S. Obviously, both probes are referenced to ground, just like the signal.

EM is correct. I moved the probes from the original drawing to the ground side. At least someone is paying attention.

Grumpy · « **Reply #726 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:21:36 AM »

It's sad that a couple of people have tried this experiment and concluded that there is nothing to see.

They post no data other than a picture, if even that.

No one even asked about the length of the iron wire required or the amount of delay - they just jumped to the preconcieved conclusion that it doesn't work as described. For all they know it takes 100 feet of iron wire or 2 inches.

The required delay could be anywhere from a few ns to a microsecond. How much iron does that take?

I found one source for velocity of electric wave in iron = 101700 km/s - compared to copper at 299500 km/s.

Anyway if you iron can give you a microsecond - it should be long enough - however long that is.

forest · « **Reply #727 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:33:31 AM »

Maybe pulse coil with rectified sinewave.... I have managed to produce high frequency in my coil (which is different then described coil+ iron delay coil) with sinewave 100Hz and squarewave 4.5khz . With sinewave (acutally it is fully rectified wave from cheap PSU) it is easier to get effect.

forest · « **Reply #728 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:39:00 AM »

Much much easier with rectified AC , pulsed 100hz, with squarewave resonance is sharp.and voltage at output lower and input frequency is the same as output so probably no gain.

pauldude000 · « **Reply #729 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:53:27 AM »

@all

I am going to have to back up grumpy on this, as he is speaking truth. Electricity has been known to travel at different rates of speed through different materials for a long time. The higher the resistance, the slower the propagation.

Nichrome wire (heating elements in electric heaters), for instance takes a LOT longer than iron for electricity to flow through, but heats up MUCH more. This is true for each substance, as the higher the resistance, the higher the heat, the slower the electrons travel through. Substances with lower internal resistance such as gold propagate electricity faster than copper.

However, what I saw in my coil setup was variations on a theme of voltage spikes with phasing. I have seen this in several of my TPU builds, and MANY of the pancake and/or bifiliar coil variations that I have experimented with. I have even seen variations of the theme for the scope shot you posted concerning the magnet motor.

That is why I want to know what you are calling kicks. Like I said elsewhere, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I actually have the feeling that what I am calling kicks actually IS what you are calling kicks. You may disagree, but I am certain you can achieve kicks from AC as well, though I do not know what the effects would be on the negative kick cycles.

Paul Andrulis

pauldude000 · « **Reply #730 on:** August 01, 2008, 01:06:31 AM »

Quote from: Grumpy on August 01, 2008, 12:21:36 AM

It's sad that a couple of people have tried this experiment and concluded that there is nothing to see.

They post no data other than a picture, if even that.

No one even asked about the length of the iron wire required or the amount of delay - they just jumped to the preconcieved conclusion that it doesn't work as described. For all they know it takes 100 feet of iron wire or 2 inches.

The required delay could be anywhere from a few ns to a microsecond. How much iron does that take?

I found one source for velocity of electric wave in iron = 101700 km/s - compared to copper at 299500 km/s.

Anyway if you iron can give you a microsecond - it should be long enough - however long that is.

If copper is 299500 and iron is 101700, you see a ratio of 1 to 2.945. It should phase accordingly around 33% at resonance. What is worse, is that through the process of motion, the copper wire sees a slower sweep type waveform in the iron. It get pretty interesting.

1 microsecond is 1 full waveform at 1 megahertz. Therefore, if your applied signal is 1Mhz, you will see little or no phasing (delayed signal will match applied signal).

sparks · « **Reply #731 on:** August 01, 2008, 01:14:50 AM »

@Grumpy

Nice find on the propogation of a wave through iron and copper. At least someone is looking at the inside of the conductors in play. I would stop looking at this experiment with anything to do with the magnetic field. Someone once said that the kick does it's thing before any electrons move. (having to use quontum physics terms is at the least confusing. Particles imply nothing in between.) No mass no magnetism. Energy yes magnetism not necessarily.

Grumpy · « **Reply #732 on:** August 01, 2008, 03:40:05 AM »

Quote from: pauldude000 on August 01, 2008, 12:53:27 AM

@all

I am going to have to back up grumpy on this, as he is speaking truth. Electricity has been known to travel at different rates of speed through different materials for a long time. The higher the resistance, the slower the propagation.

Nichrome wire (heating elements in electric heaters), for instance takes a LOT longer than iron for electricity to flow through, but heats up MUCH more. This is true for each substance, as the higher the resistance, the higher the heat, the slower the electrons travel through. Substances with lower internal resistance such as gold propagate electricity faster than copper.

However, what I saw in my coil setup was variations on a theme of voltage spikes with phasing. I have seen this in several of my TPU builds, and MANY of the pancake and/or bifiliar coil variations that I have experimented with. I have even seen variations of the theme for the scope shot you posted concerning the magnet motor.

That is why I want to know what you are calling kicks. Like I said elsewhere, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I actually have the feeling that what I am calling kicks actually IS what you are calling kicks. You may disagree, but I am certain you can achieve kicks from AC as well, though I do not know what the effects would be on the negative kick cycles.

Paul Andrulis

A few kicks amounts to nothing - it is understanding what they represent and what to do with them that is important. Descriptively, they look like a bunch of spikes - which is rather vague. Squeeze it over and over - the more the better.

I've never photo'd a kick. Really no reason to. Everyone that I hang with knows what they are.

Well, if the iron ain't working for ya - try passive delay line. I really want you guys to see it for yourself, so we can move past this sticking point.

pauldude000 · « **Reply #733 on:** August 01, 2008, 09:19:36 AM »

I may have a photo for you... when I take it that is. I may try to do it later tonight, if possible.

It is not with this delayed device, it is with my replication of EM's "mysterious resonant circuit". The only way I can think to describe the effect is "kicks".... nothing else would seem to fit. I will let you all decide.

Also, 70V kicks to boot, from a lousy 9v battery supply, with all turns matching on the toroid (3 parallel wound at 14 turns each) except for the trigger coil (8 turns) ....

Seriously, this should be a 1:1 ratio form of transformer, but it isn't.

I just don't understand why they are present in the middle of the pulse waveforms. The pulses at the ends make sense.

Oh well.

Paul Andrulis

forest · « **Reply #734 on:** August 01, 2008, 09:54:09 AM »

Quote from: pauldude000 on August 01, 2008, 09:19:36 AM

I may have a photo for you... when I take it that is. I may try to do it later tonight, if possible.

It is not with this delayed device, it is with my replication of EM's "mysterious resonant circuit". The only way I can think to describe the effect is "kicks".... nothing else would seem to fit. I will let you all decide.

Also, 70V kicks to boot, from a lousy 9v battery supply, with all turns matching on the toroid (3 parallel wound at 14 turns each) except for the trigger coil (8 turns) ....

Seriously, this should be a 1:1 ratio form of transformer, but it isn't.

I just don't understand why they are present in the middle of the pulse waveforms. The pulses at the ends make sense.

Oh well.

Paul Andrulis

Now , you are talking !

That's why I'm testing Bedini SSG coil ;-) , no need for iron, just bifilar based on two wires different size and matching resistance by using POT. Kicks,kicks,kicks. It's a pity I can't see them on scope but I fee them and I see my neon doing funny things, even blinking when I try to measure AC across neon terminals with multimeter.

I think that TPU is such simple, much simpler that "Y" arrangement - just a few control coils in resonance plus additional collector coil. You can do it even with 1:1 transformer. Basically it looks almost identical to SweetVTA except probably is driven directly by AC or square wave pulses, while SweetVTA was powered by additional coils inductively.

IF you really want to replicate TPU or something similar then please at first step try SSG coil as the simplest device to test this phenomena.

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Author Topic: The TPU uncovered? (A PROBABLE technique.) (Read 340948 times)

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