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Author Topic: empty promises  (Read 24197 times)

bitRAKE

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2007, 07:54:21 AM »
Sataur?, consumption beyond what is needed to live? That has been debated for thousands of years - it is a question of how one defines life and of resource management. Should each person be allocated an exact regimen of nutrients and social interaction (ala 1984, Brave New World, THX 1138, etc)? Maybe once the planet is exhausted and over-populated this will be a valid option for even the most egoistic!

Personally, I don't own a vehicle, TV, or house; and agree with your assessment of excess. To me it's very important to know what I consume and leave behind in waste. I've starting growing some of my own food, and I'm a DIY'er in general. My packrat nature has me reusing everything and thinking in that mindset from the get-go.

Examination of the census data seem to make it clear the US has been postponing an inevitable great depression. This "war" was just another step to stave off the implosion of the medicated bloated populous. Think about it: people don't know how to take care of themselves anymore! [After living through the 1920's depression my grandmother would not live anywhere she could not have a garden! For over 75 years she grew her own food and traded with local artisans.]

We divided from nature when social selection became possible. Humans might have been excluded from the definition of nature from the start?

Sataur

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2007, 10:53:08 PM »
I believe your assertions about the prospect of our country (and for the over consuming first-world countries in general) are correct, bitRAKE. We will have a rough transition into living for ourselves once again. Done will be the days of driving 10 to 30 miles to your office job which supplies money to buy food and goods for everyday living. This system has too many holes in it and it leaks far too much.

We will become more direct and one with the land. Instead of large farms producing food for thousands and thousands of people, I believe it is more practical for each or a smaller group of households to have a farm or large garden to supply food for themselves. This liberates us from the need to drive somewhere to make money which then is purchase food which was also shipped from somewhere else to a location where you must drive to in order to achieve possession.

This is only one example of the many changes that will happen to the world's societies. As we decentralize and become more independent, self sufficient entities, government will become less powerful, and eventually I see it evolving into more of a societal guideline for moral behavior in an area. This is one reason the government tries to push more industrialism, consumerism, and large commercial capitalism. Keeping the need for regulations preserves the need for government. Specific countries and borders will no longer be such big issues, and people will [hopefully] become more harmonized with each other.

Unfortunately before we develop such an enlightened and free society we must see a need to, and though some of us can accept the need, others are too entrenched in every-day living, trying to support a family and themselves, to take a step back and see whats going on can and must be changed. Others still refuse to accept a need for change because they are blind that their drive for more 'stuff' and more 'money' is a mere veil of distorted reality engendered by their false identity (ego) with material possessions and physical manifestations. Something universally threatening must occur, which shakes the very bones of every man in every society, before the need for change will become apparent and accepted. I only wish we could avoid this fate, but unfortunately it is the only conclusive answer I have come to.

Just my two cents.

HopeForHumanity

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2007, 11:39:13 PM »
The U.S. republic has become to socialist; no one is truly independent anymore. I think we will need something terribly drastic to happen.

bitRAKE

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2007, 01:22:52 AM »
Well, that is the very thing I will not accept: I will not demonize others and I will not prophetize the need for some apocalyptic event. Polarization is the very thing that de-harmonizes, imho. Instead we should look at the cycle that has been created and not count ourselves out of having an effect on that process (the good, bad and ugly).

You say decentralization, but I'd rather like to see it as re-localization. This is a great opportunity to build communities with all the positives of ancient tribes while still sharing on the global scale. No governance required should be the label on the box! [This is not a vote for Anarchy - although that would be better than what we have.]

I don't know about the whole morality thing. When it comes to people there is no general moral foundation - we need ethical processes that examine each instance with respect and understanding. Morality is a local (family, community, etc) phenomenon that cannot be institutionalized. Judgements are always wrong because each of us is changing and communication takes time. Isn't this our judicial system? [I'm not even going to talk about the Prison industry.]

To have one ego call another ego 'false' is just absurd! We are self-manifesting our destiny by calling whatever occurs by the names of the prophecies we have created; and then we get to talk of progress as we re-define things. [look at the hydrogen 'fuel' movement; global warming; etc] Yet, nothing has changed - that is the ultimate waste. To bring people together out of fear is the false "super-ego" at work - a cultural or collective conscience trait, and not a malady of any individual. [I really hope that is what you mean. I'm accepting of the idea that I'm full of shit - trying to make a distiction between individual fear and group fear is at best dubious.]

Sataur

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2007, 03:59:12 AM »
Perhaps you are correct in the idea that an 'apocalyptic' event is needed for change, but I believe some type of catalyst is required to push society into needing a reason for change. Perhaps the mere possibility of something horrendous happening to our dear earth will be enough, but seeing as how global warming still seems to be more of a political issue than one of humanity, we still have a long way to go.

I agree that re-localization would be a more fitting word for what must occur. When I said decentralize I suppose I just meant the breakdown of old-fashioned capitalized industries for the replacement of more local, 'secular' types of growth.

True, morality is more of an issue that is dealt with and learned within the confines of one's own personal life, and should not be dictated or enforced. One must learn to respect and understand enlightened values, not try to emulate them. What I meant by having a moral guideline was to have some sort of compilation of generally accepted customs in a certain area that may change over geographic distances, not so much the rudimentary morals derived through living and enlightened thought. Those these geographic cultural differences would most likely not be significant enough to be noted down (though in societies with extreme rituals such as cannibalism, it may help to know about it before one enters into it  ;) ).

Yes, if one ego does apply a negative label to itself or another ego, it defeats the purpose of trying to overcome the ego for the flowering of the true identity all together. One must rid himself of any ideas of getting better at something in order to 'look better' than another before he can truly become enlightened. It must be driven by intrapersonal motivators only. I believe you hit the head on the nail with your interpretation. Anything that is to be done with the hope of gain (over another individual or group) in either a personal or collective mind will ultimately end up with a more negative imbalance overall. Like you stated earlier, movements such as global warming which try to drive the people into fear in order to catalyze change will end up creating more egotism in society than before. 'Ego's will feed on this fear, and take advantage of exploitable opportunities. This can also work in the other direction as well, such as with president Bush filtering scientific documents to downplay global warming. By making it seam less of a problem than it really is, he is exploiting the ego's sense of security with what is currently being done is alright (that burning gasoline in large quantities is not bad for the planet), and he is doing this for personal gain.

We must be careful with how we approach these coming years, and people must realize that not only our physical ways are dysfunctional, but also our mental and psychological. We are out of touch with the beauty of life itself, with who we really are. We are not what we have, what we owe, or what we look like. We are the epitome of greatness in the most physical and ethereal way, and we must embrace this through abdicating our want for it (that is, the desire for greatness). In our 'ego'-driven society, people just want to feel important, but they fail to realize that they themselves are magnificent and great in their own right. They fail to realize that their physical possessions and appearances are meaningless, and that desiring and trying to gain only distances them more from happiness. This is unfortunately one of the downsides to a capitalist society, though people tend to refuse to believe it because of the apparent great "success" of capitalism in America. Whilst it may be successful in its physical manifestation, it fails on a deeper level. America is one of the most unhappy, most drugged, and most sick places in the world, and yet we are the richest.

One has to think if we'll reach a critical point of 'insanity' in the world where we all take a collective "step back" and realize that the world really is a lot more dysfunctional and maimed than previously thought.

Just my two cents.

bitRAKE

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2007, 04:18:27 AM »
Did you realize my response also tries to metaphorically outline my TPU theory? Talk about insane! :-p

IronHead

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 04:23:34 AM »
Take the red pill ,see it all.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/




Wake up , Be Enlightened
IronHead
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 06:30:50 PM by IronHead »

HopeForHumanity

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 06:31:22 AM »
By terribly drastic I could mean a mass ditributed overunity device, world energy companies will freak, and countries economic structures will fall apart. I think thats pretty damn drastic...

2012

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 10:52:49 AM »
Posting a working model and publishing instructions are too much too soon.

For one I would like to perfect what I have done and produce a marketable product for sale BEFORE I release the blue prints to anyone. The reasons are obvious, why would you spend 3 years making something work only to hand the blue prints to someone you never met while you are in no position to market what you have done. You know what happens next. I would be careful about making sure I could sell it, make it en-mass quickly and cheaply and have a return on that to fund the legal aspects before I made a public plan on how to build the next greatest thing on earth...

I know that goes against what some people are doing here but you can't release the next greatest Operating System Code bofore you can market and keep the product open source! If you fail to protect the actual blue print and al it's technical detail who is stopping Dick Cheny and Halyburton oil from lodging patent on your research? I can show you what I did and give insight to its workings but Ill be a year or 2 from openly publishing a working detailed blue print or API...

Besides, I can't afford a camera phone let alone a DV camcorder...

OffGrid rdnck

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2007, 11:21:21 AM »

I am genuinely concerned about the world having depleted its oil reserves and what that means for all of us ordinary folks and those much less fortunate than us. I am optimistic though, I believe that we are surrounded by untapped sources of energy.


Don't be. the Alarmists have been talking this peak oil doom and gloom from the time the first oil well was drilled.

People still  believe  a 200 year old theory that oil is made by dead dinosaurs, and other little organic bits billions of years old.  None of that is remotely true.  One oil field in Saudi Arabia would have had to have  500 billion dead dinosaurs somehow die and fall in the exact same spot to produce the oil in it if you were to believe that rediculous theory. Imagine how many dinosaurs there would have to have been living on earth to fill all the oil fields on earth. 
It must have been an awfull crowed place, the prehistoric earth, with dinosaurs packed like sardines on every square inch of land, just to fill the oil fields in use now of the same geological age.

The real truth is oil is constantly being produced far deeper in the earth than anyone has previously thought. The oil we find is the stuff that slowly finds it's way up from these depths and pools in  reservoirs along fault lines.
The fact is, we don't really know how much <a href="http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm"><b>abiotic</b></a> oil is produced by the earth.  When we find that out we will find out what "peak oil" is, and what the maximum yearly limit we can extract of this never ending resource.

Oil isn't  organic, in fact the only thing organic in oil is the contaminants it picks up as it moves through the outer layers of the earths crust where all this "dead dinosaur" material is.  All that stuff produces is a bit of methane gas.

Russian and Ukrainian scientists have discovered the true sources and nature of oil long ago,  around 1951 which was then used to discover the vast oil fields in Syberia, and to further prove the theories of abiotic  oil formation.  much has been written about this, but for some reason has been largely ignored by the west in favor of the 200 year old dinosaur juice theory.  I think you can imagine why it would be advantagous  for big oil to have people think we are always on the verge of 'peak oil".

There are  limitations to overcome  in order to reach richer deposits of oil, namely drilling through a very hot  putty like layer of granite; but research has been ongoing and several proof holes, such as <a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/inner1.htm#s2"><b>on the Kola Peninsula</b></a> have been drilled, which have also disproved many other theories of how the earth is constructed.

Beyond  certain depths, the rock cools and becomes less dense, as well as vains of extremely dense and salty heavily calciumated water  is found. It is now thought that these waters, released suddenly during catastrophic events are what formed much of the limestone and calcium deposits found on the surface of the earth, not billions of years of microscopic sea shells, which also explains the lack of any organic evidence found in many deposit sites around the world, including Englands vast deposit. These deep sources of  super dence water are now thought to have caused rapid shifting of the earths crust, not the slow billion year theory of plate tetonic theory. 

There is a lot of  so called 'scientific" B.S. being purposely  fed the sheeple in order to keep them ignorant and fearfull, and  for several reasons by groups with adgenda's that are not in the best interest of mankind. So, at least in regards for your worries about oil,  your main concern should be how badly we are being gouged for something we have a vast abundance of.  You'll learn much and find many interesting other bits of information following those links.

As far as "zero point" and energy from the vaccum" stuff, don't waste your time. It's mainly a excersize in measuring the tinyest potential differences in negatively and positively charged protons. In order to find a usefull source of "energy from the vaccum" you'd need an entire universe that has a negative chage, and another entire universe with a positive charge, and a way to hook a couple wires to them, which would then set off a vast chain reaction and collapse both universes,  or our own, perhaps instantly! (in theory, sort of like a reverse of the "big bang" theory)

We already can create this phenominum on a usefull scale, we call it a battery.

Many people seeking over unity, do not have, or forgotten the basic fundamentals of what electricity is.  Negative and positively charged electrons.  to create a potential difference and to thus make 'work", you have to create an imbalance, remove one from one and add it to another other. it will then try equalize itself. this takes work however. you don't get something for nothing. 
Unity is getting the same amount of work back that you put in.  Overunity is getting more  back than you put in, without creating an imbalance that seeks to restore things back to normal. This is explained in lens' law why it can't be done.

There is nothing  in this entire universe that gets something from nothing.  In fact this entire universe will someday end, because it is like a vast  wound up clock, (much more complicated of course) it began with a large imbalance which is slowly restoring itself to the state it was in at the moment of it's creation.
The sun is a giant and very obvious example of this, and if you study everything else in this universe, you will see the same thing happening everywhere.


 

OffGrid rdnck

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2007, 11:50:12 AM »
I believe your assertions about the prospect of our country (and for the over consuming first-world countries in general) are correct, bitRAKE. We will have a rough transition into living for ourselves once again. Done will be the days of driving 10 to 30 miles to your office job which supplies money to buy food and goods for everyday living. This system has too many holes in it and it leaks far too much.

We will become more direct and one with the land. Instead of large farms producing food for thousands and thousands of people, I believe it is more practical for each or a smaller group of households to have a farm or large garden to supply food for themselves. This liberates us from the need to drive somewhere to make money which then is purchase food which was also shipped from somewhere else to a location where you must drive to in order to achieve possession.

This is only one example of the many changes that will happen to the world's societies. As we decentralize and become more independent, self sufficient entities, government will become less powerful, and eventually I see it evolving into more of a societal guideline for moral behavior in an area. This is one reason the government tries to push more industrialism, consumerism, and large commercial capitalism. Keeping the need for regulations preserves the need for government. Specific countries and borders will no longer be such big issues, and people will [hopefully] become more harmonized with each other.

Unfortunately before we develop such an enlightened and free society we must see a need to, and though some of us can accept the need, others are too entrenched in every-day living, trying to support a family and themselves, to take a step back and see whats going on can and must be changed. Others still refuse to accept a need for change because they are blind that their drive for more 'stuff' and more 'money' is a mere veil of distorted reality engendered by their false identity (ego) with material possessions and physical manifestations. Something universally threatening must occur, which shakes the very bones of every man in every society, before the need for change will become apparent and accepted. I only wish we could avoid this fate, but unfortunately it is the only conclusive answer I have come to.

Just my two cents.


Rubbish. We are already far too overpopulated for everyone to own their own little plot of land  to produce enough food to sustain themselves.

Farming pracvtices today are a thousand times more efficient, and is all that keeps this world population alive on the airable land available.

I don't think you gave very much thought to your post, but perhaps you will find many interesting facts  if you take the time to reseach some of your assumptions.

As it is, we are far, far beyond any possiblility of "returning to the land"  and living like cavemen.  Thousands of years beyond in fact.

90% of the worlds population would have to be killed off for individual people to be able to sustain themselves off the land, and even then I doubt many could.

 Collective farming  has been the way of even the earliest civilizations, simply because
it greatly increases the chances of survival. 

Reverting to those type of civilizations however, would be much harder, because people simply do not know how to farm, nor hunt.  Plus there is all the other skills, like preserving food to eat while your crop grows, not that it will grow anyways,  because you have no fertilizer, and don't know how to keep the weeds and animals from eating it., no tools.

Then, even if you overcome all those difficulties, a better hunter and surviver will probably come along and kill you and take it all anyway.

I get a good laugh at  greenies who daydream about   'going back to the land'.

You had better get started now, because it's not easy living a rural life  even now with all the conveniences, and you'll need to learn that it's impossible to grow all your own food, so you are going to have to build up stores and stock up on things like ammo. And get to know others that will form part of your post collapse community.

 I've been doing it for 15 years, and you can bet when d-day comes, I won't be turning my lights (from my own home made electricity) at night.  Anyone thinking they are going to walk out of the cities and return to the land are going to be in for a suprize and a sudden reality check.

Sataur

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2007, 01:06:12 PM »
Yes we are overpopulated. Too much so. We have created and environment for ourselves which is unnaturally fertile, and as such we take away from the life of other species and organisms. There are simply too many humans all fighting to get as much as they can from everyone else.

And regarding your earlier posts, it doesn't matter where oil comes from or how long it will last, we have to be responsible and stop using it all together. The same goes for coal, natural gas, and nuclear energy as well (though nuclear energy is probably the best of them all, but is far more dangerous if not handled correctly). These products produce harmful effects which aren't temporally specific to our times, which makes them all the more dangerous. We won't necessarily see effects from the oil we burn today in our lifetimes, and perhaps not even our children's lifetimes, but we have to go beyond our egotism and false sense of superiority and uphold the responsibility to seize the use of oil and other non-renewable resources all together.

You need to get off your fantasy for a 'fallout' like aftermath, and realize it won't be beneficial to you or the earth to perpetuate our self-destructive tendencies which brought us to the collapsed state in the first place. Stocking up on resources and trying to gain an advantage over the rest will only hurt you and our successors in the long run. It is nothing more than a physical manifestation of a false egoic image withheld by most of the world, the same one that has created the corruption and destruction we are faced with today.

What I would suggest to you my dear friend would be to stop, step back, and look at what the root of the problem is. View beyond the physical, and enter the profound. It is not a physical cause which has created these physical effects. It was not what we did that got us here, it is how we were and how we are that did. Meditate, and you will see that the 'you' who you have come to know and identify with is merely a product of our ego-driven society, and is a sad and upset identity to which we have seemingly become perpetually bound. We need to break our bonds, and integrate our ego's into our true, loving identities in a healthy way.

Just my two cents.

2012

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2007, 06:21:23 PM »
I agree. If oil did run out it would not be long before new ideas on how things work came into mainstream thinking. The difference between then and now is who is paying the research money, for what and why....We hardly know anything about water, H2O. Its properties are unusual and its energy capabilities are 10,000 times greater than Nuclear yet research dollars go into Nuclear simply because its already done, has a shorter R&D investment cycle and yields a greater share of Corporate welfare simply because, its already there! Investing in H2O is not going to happen when the best we can do with it is make steam using oil........

If its true that radio transmissions can "crack it" then good, start using a radio frequency device and bump up the volume, see what does what! Nothing will happen Unless the Oil peters out and screws the world economy or someone beats the giants to it....

Remember the best inventions are the simplest ans most elegant, nothing has to be complicated! After all a silicon chip is a simply a very small screen print of a 2 way diode on a glass substrate, its elegant, simple and easy to make if you know how...Got a microscope?

bitRAKE

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2007, 07:10:46 PM »

bitRAKE

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Re: empty promises
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2007, 08:56:01 PM »
OffGrid rdnck, there is a lot of truth to what you say - I don't think large scale agricultural is in danger of being stopped by humans anytime soon. Yet, there is technology that can almost match yields on some crops at a smaller scale. Of course, I'm ignoring the steep initial costs of such systems.

For example, yearly lettuce yields are 500 plants per square yard at a specialized farm. An advanced hydroponic setup can almost match that yield.

There are many pluses for the local grow method. Sataur? mention some and I'll add that crops could be grown in any climate. Like you said, we are pushing the limits of the land that we have to work with. I think other techniques merely help to spread the risk and reduce the burden on an already stressed environment.

Let me make it clear I am not suggesting an energy savings from localized growing. What I'm suggesting is diversification is worth more than small energy losses, and possibly higher quality produce can be grown.

[On a side note: "d-day" would bring out the expert hunters and they will be at your house - talk about a reality check. If not expert hunters then a mob of thousands. "d-day" can/should not be prepared for - it is not a world I'm willing to live in.]