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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2237962 times)

Cloxxki

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1785 on: November 30, 2011, 08:42:03 PM »
What does angle have to with it? When a weight is allowed to go from a starting position to a lower one, the height difference and mass will determin the energy open to be converted. It can't do any work without immediately having it subtracted in full. Nice in practical applications is that you can get a lateral displacement at no charge at all, but as you know, a longer lever doesn't give more energy. More lever, less angle, same result.

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1786 on: November 30, 2011, 08:45:00 PM »
  This is how a pendulum can swing in perpetuality. It's based on children playing in a playground. It has been discussed before in this forum. Certain details were missed.
 When a child swings on a swing, they lean back. This shifts the weight on the main fulcrum (B). As such, the swing moves forward. And when it slows or stops, they sit upright and the swing reverses direction. Don't tell this to scientists, they've over looked what children have known. It's a secret  :-D
 And when they get their swings moving the way they like, often higher than atributed to the net input of force which is ZERO, some interesting things can be observed.
 When they lean back, their arms create 2 points with the main fulcrum, or if a solid line is represented, it pivots. As they swing, they start moving upright, fulcrum A. And when they finish their ascent, they stay upright while swinging backwards. When they stop, they lean back again rising even more on the opposite side unless they go to high, then the chains become slack.
 A ratchet type mechanism can move the weight A to it's outward position on the downward swing. And with brown representing flexible lines, the drawing shows how what a child knows might be able to be replicated by adults.
 And in mechanics, on the backward swing, the weights A & B will move together (hopefully) and if fulcrum B carries both weights, it is okay.
 Initially, on the downward swing, the line for fulcrum A would need to be slack. this would allow for torque or what it is those kids know to work, any way, hopefully work for adults.
 
                                                                                  Jim
 
edited to add; Hope every one enjoys the coming Holidays  !!!  Au revoir, do sveedania, etc.

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1787 on: December 02, 2011, 01:09:36 PM »
  @All,
 The basic idea is if you have a weight at  the bottom of a line, like on a swing, if another weight leans back,
it changes the center of gravity and pushes weight B forward. When weight A is lifted, it swings as a part of B.
If it is a little forward, then it helps to push weight B backwards. With something like this, it's start position would be at the top of it's swing in it's backward direction.
 By having a tab move into it's holder, weight A can pass it and when it swings down, can be reset.

                                                                                                              Jim                           

AB Hammer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1788 on: December 03, 2011, 02:58:35 PM »
  @All,
 The basic idea is if you have a weight at  the bottom of a line, like on a swing, if another weight leans back,
it changes the center of gravity and pushes weight B forward. When weight A is lifted, it swings as a part of B.
If it is a little forward, then it helps to push weight B backwards. With something like this, it's start position would be at the top of it's swing in it's backward direction.
 By having a tab move into it's holder, weight A can pass it and when it swings down, can be reset.

                                                                                                              Jim                         

Jim

 But doesn't the second cable of the swing have a pull back on the whole system that created a negative effect?

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1789 on: December 03, 2011, 05:04:22 PM »
Jim

 But doesn't the second cable of the swing have a pull back on the whole system that created a negative effect?

   Alan,
 When weights A and B start their downward swing, weight B would be supporting weight A.
This would give them both the same momentum. When fulcrum A starts lifting weight A, weight A will have a shorter path to follow than weight B does. This would cause weight A to be pushing weight B.
 As far as pendulums and swings go, weight B does not need to move at the ends of it's pendulum. I showed this as part of the mechanics children use.
 
                                                                       Jim
 
edited to add attachment.
edit; it might just be that when fulcrum A starts lifting weight A that weights A and b have the same distance to travel. If so, then the energy developed when weight B is supporting weight A is the extra impetus into the system which would allow it to be a dynamic self perpetuating pendulum. A tribute to their efficiency.
 A part of the reason is that weight A would be dropping more than it's own path allows for.

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1790 on: December 03, 2011, 09:01:59 PM »
  @All,
 This might simplify the idea. The pivot on fulcrum B can have weight C.
It's mass can equal A + B.
 If weight A has an antennae (for lack of a better term), a tab (pictured, like used on an umbrella) can restrict the downward movement of weight A. It slowly moves outward.
 It's potential would be relized by weights C & B. Then on the follow through (after bottom center), as weight B drops, it accelerates weight A, just slightly. This would align all 3 weights for the return swing.
 The nice part about weight C is that on the follow through, it's inertia would help move weights A & C. This would require weights A & B pivoting at weight C.
 Who knows, fulcrum A might not even be needed. Still, if used could make operation of the device simpler.
 
                                                                               Jim

AB Hammer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1791 on: December 05, 2011, 02:56:27 AM »

   Alan,
 When weights A and B start their downward swing, weight B would be supporting weight A.
This would give them both the same momentum. When fulcrum A starts lifting weight A, weight A will have a shorter path to follow than weight B does. This would cause weight A to be pushing weight B.
 As far as pendulums and swings go, weight B does not need to move at the ends of it's pendulum. I showed this as part of the mechanics children use.
 
                                                                       Jim
 
edited to add attachment.
edit; it might just be that when fulcrum A starts lifting weight A that weights A and b have the same distance to travel. If so, then the energy developed when weight B is supporting weight A is the extra impetus into the system which would allow it to be a dynamic self perpetuating pendulum. A tribute to their efficiency.
 A part of the reason is that weight A would be dropping more than it's own path allows for.

Greetings Jim

 I still don't see you getting an advantage but good luck on it.  When dealing with acceleration of swinging. I would suggest watching kids on the playground swing. By dropping themselves and kicking out to accelerate.

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1792 on: December 06, 2011, 01:24:38 PM »
Greetings Jim

 I still don't see you getting an advantage but good luck on it.  When dealing with acceleration of swinging. I would suggest watching kids on the playground swing. By dropping themselves and kicking out to accelerate.

  Hi Alan,
 As you know, I am engaged in learning the build process for what I consider to be Bessler's working wheel.
With this, there is one important thing to remember, work equals mass times distance. And it seems that torque is to be considered just the same.
 What this means is if someone tries to rotate a wheel using solid weights that they have to consider the distance the weights travel and their average position from center. That's to keep it simple. And using 4 weights as an example, the weights being lifted have to move close enough to the axle to travel less distance than those falling. A very difficult thing to do.
 With swinging weights, the efficiency increases. And as one weight drops, it can lift with no friction, a weight dropping can lift another weight the same height. While Bessler said he used 6 and 8 weights, he did not say on which wheel.
 With a wheel based on a pendulum type behavior, more than 2 weights can be used. But 2 weights might work best with the mechanics. And the best thing about something like this is people would believe that everything is rotating with the wheel. But as only the hands on a watch rotate, it would be the wheel and not it's mechanics that would be rotating. this would put people on the wrong trail from the word go. Thus they would never figure out Bessler's subterfuge.
 

                                                                                                                             Jim

johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1793 on: December 06, 2011, 05:14:07 PM »
   Alan,
 this might help simplify things for you and everyone else.
As has been mentioned, bessler made time pieces. these required great skill.
 And as you once asked in Besslerwheel, what could fit inside a wheel that
is 4 inches (10 cm's) wide ? Swinging levers could. And to throw a little math
at you, if a 1 meter long levers are used with a 7.5 cm radius cog, an over balance of
 5.88 cm's. Or the CoG would be 94.12 cm's. And if it rotated 1/4 turn, then the Cog
would be 82.345 cm's. That's a signifigant difference.
 As for the wheel itself, how much would the frame of a 10 cm wide wheel weigh ?
Not much, especially if it is covered with material as Bessler's were known to have.
 Just don't expect it to do much work, but it could rotate if the math proves to be correct.
 By the way, remember the spinning top that was a clue ? It could roll, couldn't it ? Like
maybe if a line were attached to something else ? And the line was attached to both ends
to pull it evenly ? just a thought.
 
                                                                                           Jim
 
edited to add picture showing a straight line pull.

Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1794 on: December 07, 2011, 02:12:27 AM »
latest from veljkomilkovic.com:


"Energy Globe Award" for Veljko Milkovic's Pendulum Pump
 
On November 25, in the Austrian city of Wales, the prestigious "Energy Globe" awards for the best global environmental projects were presented and this year's world and national winners were proclaimed. Veljko Milkovic’s innovation “Hand water pump with a pendulum“ was proclaimed national winner of “Energy Globe Award 2011“ for the Republic of Serbia.
 
 
On November 25, in the Austrian city of Wales, international foundation ENERGY GLOBE (www.energyglobe-foundation.com) traditionally rewarded projects which improve energy efficiency and renewable energy sources and presented the awards to international and national winners in its prestige Energy Globe Award (www.energyglobe.info). International foundation ENERGY GLOBE, based in Austria has been giving the most prestigious international award for environment preservation in the world since 1999. Among other things, ENERGY GLOBE award is intended for all the projects in the world which rationally, carefully and efficiently treat energy sources including renewable energy sources.
 
This year’s final ceremony was held in the Austrian energy city of Wales, in a beautiful setting of the trade fair and conference center "Messezentrum NEU” (www.messe-wels.com). Annual award "ENERGY GLOBE" was presented on a gala manifestation under the name “Olympics for our environment” which gathered representatives from over 40 countries, more than 1000 guests, top-ranking laudatory speakers and a huge crowd of press and television representatives. http://www.energyglobe.com/news/details/category/2/id/1823/

Almost 1,000 projects from 105 countries was participating for this year's award "Energy Globe" and from those who met the criteria of the international jury, the best project from each country was awarded the national "Energy Globe" award http://www.energyglobe.com/en/award/latest-winners/national-awards-wels-2011/ from which the top 15, divided into 5 categories (earth, fire, water, air, youth), were also nominated for global award "Energy Globe World Award 2011". http://www.energyglobe.com/en/award/latest-winners/nominees-world-award-2011/

International jury proclaimed “Hand water pump with a pendulum”, an invention by Serbian academician, researcher and inventor Veljko Milkovic (www.veljkomilkovic.com), the national winner in the Republic of Serbia for 2011 for his energy-saving technology for water supply and irrigation. http://www.pendulum-lever.com/pendulum-pump.html


johnny874

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1795 on: December 07, 2011, 05:30:13 PM »
   Merg,
 Veljko's award is something that probably would have merited it's own thread
as positive recognotion in this type of pursuit is something not known to happen.
It's nice to see that he has been recognized for his efforts.
 
                                                                                             Jim

Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1796 on: December 12, 2011, 01:26:46 AM »
a replica from YouTube...

1. two stage oscillator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPcE248BHE

2. two stage oscillator escapement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdE-K7Twvvc

3. TSO half cog powering mechanism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywh_NLHk-FY
 

Merg

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AB Hammer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1798 on: December 13, 2011, 12:51:57 AM »
Merg

The link you posted (1. two stage oscillator ) I found it a bit funny for if he tries to get more swing by hand. It will go through the roof. LOL



neptune

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1799 on: December 18, 2011, 04:26:49 PM »
Just imagine that someone invented a gravity shield . And imagine that in addition to being able to switch gravity off , it was also capable of intensifying gravity to 3 times its normal strength . The only problem is that the device switches gravity from zero to 3 times normal on a cyclic basis . We can control the switching frequency . Well , there is no need to imagine . The device is already a reality , and is open source . Google The secrets of free energy from the pendulum by Jovan Marjanovic . After reading this , see item 5 in the footnotes . "Theory of Gravity Machines ."
       The device is of course the Milkovic 2 stage oscillator . These two articles are the best I have seen , but there are others by the same author .The 2SO has never been looped for various reasons . The main reason has been timing issues . These issues could easily be overcome by using the output to wind up a large clock spring to drive the pendulum via an escapement . See my last post in this thread . Raymond Head [youtube rhead100] has done more than any man on earth to perfect this device . However , I know he has health problems , and has not posted for about 3 months . I would advise anyone building a 2SO to have a pendulum at least one metre long . Build the frame as strong as possible . In my opinion  one needs only utilise the downward movement of the output arm . Add a heavy weight to the output arm , so the upward movement lifts this weight , which the helps the downward movement on the way down .I plan to do some research in the new year , but it will be slow due to health and money problems .