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### Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 359375 times)

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4720
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2015, 12:50:38 AM »
You have shown a tank circuit where the current is being rocked back and forth between an inductor and a capacitor--different situation.
When a current is sent to an inductor,the inductor builds a magnetic field around it. When that current supply to the inductor is cut off,the field around that inductor collapses. The voltage across that inductor will invert,but the current flow through that inductor will continue to flow in the same direction. Think about what happens in a water pipe that causes water hammer when the tap that supplies that water flow is abruptly switched off. The pressure (voltage) in that pipe after the tap invert's,but the water(current) wants to keep flowing in the same direction through that pipe.

If we are to help Luc in making a more efficient motor using the flyback,then it is important that this is understood.
Voltage invert's across the inductor,but current keeps flowing in the same direction.

@Tinman,

Please look at the first minute of this video where Igor explains his schematic:

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2015, 01:01:24 AM »
Hi Luc
I haven't been able to watch any vids since my data is used up for the month.
But  I have found that you can collect 5 times the amount of any coil ,whether it is drive or generating.
The lower the UF of the cap , along with a paralleled cap bank can catch the spike.
The spike can feed as many as you can switch into collection.
Woppy add some diodes to the out put of your coil ,feed them into seperate banks, using the 1UF as a buffer in front of the bank.
If it's off topic feel free to delete.
Thanks artv

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2015, 01:19:20 AM »

Please feel free to share more if you can as 5x more sounds very interesting.

I'm very happy to see everyone's participation and some of us coming to new understandings.
Even if my ideas don't improve a motors efficiency we will all come out of it with something which should be the spirit of this forum.

Thanks to all for sharing

Luc

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4720
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2015, 01:26:03 AM »
@Tinman,

Here's Woopyjump's latest video above: His schematic below shows the power coming into the top of the coil through the reed switch from the positive electrode of the source. The schematic then shows where the flyback spike exits out through the bottom of the coil and travels to the auxiliary coil and capacitor through the diode:              That's to the right!

It may look like the current's traveling in the same direction but instead of going from positive to negative the flyback's going from negative to positive! The flyback current is traveling in the reverse direction, up the auxiliary coil from bottom to top! There's merely the illusion that the flyback current's traveling in the same direction. The power pulse current originated from the positive electrode, then after the collapse and polarity reversal, the flyback runs backwards to return to the positive plate of the capacitor, not the negative ground! In order for the flyback current to be considered as traveling in the same direction, it would have to continue on the same path towards the ground, where the original power pulse current was formerly headed.
That's to the left!

The flyback current "REVERSES DIRECTION" at that junction! The flyback  current in no way continues to travel in the same direction as the original power pulse current.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 05:59:10 AM by synchro1 »

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2015, 01:49:40 AM »
Luc Take a coil , spin a magnetic field over the coil, the coil produces an emf.
Hook a bridge to the coil, now you have DC output.
Connect a cap , now you have stored DC.
Where the bridge is hooked to the coil add half way bridges, but they have to be hooked to the same cap as before but a different one , But through a 1UF cap ,or it won't collect.
It will with a higher UF rating but not as good.
I'm still doing testes and need to build more switches , I think this thing will self run.
The half bridges with the low UF and high voltage caps , buffer the spike so it can be collected by a normal cap.
artv

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4720
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2015, 03:02:24 AM »
In woopjump's circuit, the flyback current needs the positively charged plate of the auxiliary capacitor to run toward while the Reed switch is open! This positively charged capacitor plate acts as the opposite current's new "Reverse Biased Ground"!

The Hi-voltage flyback spike travels through the auxiliary coil first to reach the positive cap plate and lowers the coil inductance triggering a capacitor discharge pulse backwards into the auxiliary coil. This discharge pulse powers the magnet rotor. The stored capacitor power is generated by the magnet rotor. This creates a timing event that has to be adjusted for by carefully positioning the auxiliary coil! The auxiliary output coil's polarity determines which of the capacitor plates is positive. This capacitor with no diode is a "Swinging Door".

Woopyjump removes the power coil and motors the magnet rotor solely with the auxiliary coil. He could easily run a second magnet rotor with the freed up power coil!

The question is: How did Luc get this all figured out to begin with?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2015, 05:56:27 AM »
In woopjump's circuit, the flyback current needs the positively charged plate of the auxiliary capacitor to run toward while the Reed switch is open! This positively charged capacitor plate acts as the opposite current's new "Reverse Biased Ground"!

The Hi-voltage flyback spike travels through the auxiliary coil first to reach the positive cap plate and lowers the coil inductance triggering a capacitor discharge pulse backwards into the auxiliary coil. This discharge pulse powers the magnet rotor. The stored capacitor power is generated by the magnet rotor. This creates a timing event that has to be adjusted for by carefully positioning the auxiliary coil! The auxiliary output coil's polarity determines which of the capacitor plates is positive. This capacitor with no diode is a "Swinging Door".

Woopyjump removes the power coil and motors the magnet rotor solely with the auxiliary coil. He could easily run a second magnet rotor with the freed up power coil!

The question is: How did Luc get this all figured out to begin with?

Like I said, we are talking about two different things.
I am talking about the flyback from the primary coil, not the secondary coil tank circuit.
The current in the primary coil continues to flow in the same direction once the reed switch becomes open. BackEMF is an incorrect term for what is known as the inductive kickback. BackEMF is the voltage in an inductor that apposes that which created it.
Like Mags said, it should be called an inductive kick foward, but as the voltage inverts across the inductor, it got the name inductive kickback of flyback.

As the title of the thread says using flyback to increase motor efficiency, then I thought it important that the flybacks current flow direction is correctly known.

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4720
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2015, 06:03:58 AM »
Like I said, we are talking about two different things.
I am talking about the flyback from the primary coil, not the secondary coil tank circuit.
The current in the primary coil continues to flow in the same direction once the reed switch becomes open. BackEMF is an incorrect term for what is known as the inductive kickback. BackEMF is the voltage in an inductor that apposes that which created it.
Like Mags said, it should be called an inductive kick foward, but as the voltage inverts across the inductor, it got the name inductive kickback of flyback.

As the title of the thread says using flyback to increase motor efficiency, then I thought it important that the flybacks current flow direction is correctly known.

@Tinman,

Pay attention Bub! The current from the primary coil generates a magnetic field that collapses and reverses current polarity and travels to the right at the junction when the Reed switch opens. When the Reed switch is closed the current from the primary coil travels to the left toward the negative ground! The yellow marker's pointing at the general area in the schematic below!

#### DaKrampus

• Newbie
• Posts: 22
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2015, 07:36:13 AM »
Reading this thread and looking at the different videos gave me an idea.. for a project I have been working on.
Using a classical bedini circuit and running a second (identical one) on the back-emf alone.
Result

http://youtu.be/IZPmdtTTmz0

It also works with identical coils, although they dont pulse at the same time as this is going to be a 3 phase motor generator
But it will be more efficient than running it on one pulse motor alone..
Sorry the video was very quick (and dirty) but i had to do the experiment before i leave for holliday until next tuesday

Luciano

#### nilrehob

• Full Member
• Posts: 100
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2015, 08:07:12 AM »
This ties directly into my 4th paper at https://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/elementary-physics which is really cool :-)
The same thing can be done with charge and momentum etc, also in my papers.
I have a video showing it with charge at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZcvOWSXcbU

/Hob

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2015, 08:48:28 AM »
Recycling unused energy that would normally be wasted is a good thing.  But how many times do you want to recycle that energy is a valid question.  For example, when you look at Laurent's clips you notice when he dumps the drive coil pulse into the capacitor and then the capacitor discharges through the second drive coil it completely discharges and you are done.  That's arguably an "elegant" solution - do a single recycle, burn off all of the unused recycled energy and you are done.  There is arguably little to gain by adding a second energy recycling stage.  It makes the circuit more complex and at each stage there are losses.  More stages equals more losses.

There is a somewhat ironic situation happening.  This thread is about a "more efficient motor" and only myself and Tinman have mentioned that the high-voltage coil has a relatively high resistance and that means more losses.  I have challenged you guys about measuring the losses in the high-voltage coil and nobody wants to touch it.  Also, nobody really knows what a true "Goldilocks" pulse would be for the high-voltage coil.  Perhaps a longer push-pull pulse that subtends the angle between the limits of the "U" core of the high-voltage coil?  (Relative to the passing rotor magnet.)  What about a shorter stronger pushing pulse that is focused on one end of the "U" core only where the magnetic field is stronger?  It's an unknown.

On the side of the good news, you are free to move the high-voltage coil around and hunt for a sweet spot.  That is your very easy variable timing system.  You don't actually need to scope the timing or make an LED timing gun.  What I can say through is that if I was a builder, I would add this to my bag of tricks:  In the TK MHOP clips he over-drives a "regular" LED and has a circuit to flash it at the start and end of the drive coil ON time.  To make it simpler, I would get a big mean very high-power LED, and use the op-amp to switch on and off a power transistor.   Then I would paint little white dots on top of the rotor magnets, and voila, you have your LED strobe timing gun to see the conduction angle for the drive coil.  You could make a little jig and then use your LED strobe timing gun on any pulse motor that you build.

So here is a variation on what you see in Laurent's clip to consider:  You need to have a high-voltage coil with multiple taps.  Then you can experiment with different capacitors, and different tap points on the high-voltage coil.  Can you shape the pulse to get more rotor bang for your pulse that comes from the drive coil?  Here is the big question:  When I change taps on the high-voltage coil, I lower the resistance of the coil.  Will that improve my overall setup because there is less resistance in the secondary coil?  The presumption is that you will get a shorter length pulse.  But don't forget that you are dealing with less turns, and therefore a weaker generation of a magnetic field for the same amount of current.  It's hard to know, but it could be an interesting investigation.

#### MileHigh

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• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2015, 08:48:52 AM »
Now I am going to play devil's advocate.  Sometimes in life you arrive at a zero sum game, and that may apply to the multiple-tap high-voltage coil.   In one case you have higher turns, higher resistance, and a higher strength of magnetic field generated.  In the other case you have lower turns, lower resistance, and a lower strength of magnetic field generated.  What happens to the resistive losses in the coil when we compare the two and we want the same strength of magnetic field generated?  Well, we know that low current, high turns, high resistance will be equal to high current, low turns, low resistance for the same strength of magnetic field.  So what if we look at the resistive losses in these two cases?  You are comparing (low current x high resistance) losses to (high current x low resistance) losses for the same strength of magnetic field generation.  That sounds like a zero sum game to me.  You can crunch the numbers on paper without even building anything to check this.

If you assume that it is indeed a zero sum game with respect to the resistive losses, (and we can't be 100% sure of that in the real world actual build) then the key to extracting the maximum rotor bang for your pulse buck may me more directly related to pulse strength, pulse timing and pulse duration.  Let's not even discuss the pulse strength because you have limited control over it.  So, to adjust the timing is trivial, because you have the luxury of physically being able to move the high-voltage coil around to effectively change the pulse timing.  Pulse duration is controllable with the size of the capacitor with the caveat that the larger the capacitor, the longer the pulse duration, and the weaker the pulse strength.

As you can see, it's an interesting study in trade-offs when you play with the various parameters.  This is all presuming that you have a fixed amount of pulse energy to work with.   And I will leave you with another question to ponder:  You are trying to make the most efficient pulse motor by recycling the pulse energy that comes from the drive coil when the reed switch (or transistor/MOSFET) switches off.  But perhaps a big pulse of energy from the drive coil is not as good as optimizing the drive coil pulse first and foremost, and then working with a smaller pulse for the high-voltage coil.  What is the best energy mix between the low-voltage drive coil and the high-voltage secondary coil?  70-30?  50-50?  30-70?  It's hard to know that one but at least being conscious of it is worthwhile.

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2015, 09:05:21 AM »
I had looked through my vids to see if i had one, but dont....  I remember trying to get a bemf spike into a higher henry coil and the higher H coil seemed to block most of the spike rather than take advantage of the full potential. Like a subwoofer crossover coil, it blocks out the high frequencies.  So the capacitor across your higher inductance coil probably loads up first then delivers it charge to the parallel coil?

Mags

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2015, 09:07:39 AM »
One other comment that just occurred to me.  We notice in Laurent's clips that the capacitor simply discharges through the high-voltage coil and we observe the voltage decreasing in an almost linear fashion.  That means there is a fairly even pulse of current going through the coil because i = C dv/dt.  This is somewhat strange, because the circuit is an LC tank, and normally it's supposed to resonate.  My assumption is that between the EMF induced into the high-voltage coil from the passing rotor magnet, and the relatively high resistance of the coil, you "stumble" upon this favourable capacitor discharge curve for the pulse motor operation.

However, if the secondary coil resistance starts to get lower because you change to a tap on the coil with a lower number of turns and a lower resistance, then you might start to see the LC circuit start to resonate.  It's pretty safe to assume that a resonating LC tank circuit will NOT help in the operation of the pulse motor.

#### tinman

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• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2015, 11:12:11 AM »
@Tinman,

Pay attention Bub! The current from the primary coil generates a magnetic field that collapses and reverses current polarity and travels to the right at the junction when the Reed switch opens. When the Reed switch is closed the current from the primary coil travels to the left toward the negative ground! The yellow marker's pointing at the general area in the schematic below!

Bub

No, the current dose not revers polarity in the primary inductor-only the voltage dose.
You have confused current flow direction with current flow path.

OK,i will try one more time.