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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 218492 times)

Offline tinman

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I'm glad people are starting to look at this using the many different methods to harvest and use the spike. This is what John Bedini and others have been talking about for years. Try it on the window motor with the full or even half bipolar Bedini/Cole switch or even the zero force... - you will all be amazed!
Cheers - Patrick

No it's not. There is no magical radiant energy entering the system here. This is showing real energy being captured and reused that would otherwise be wasted or dissipated as things like arc's-as could be seen clearly in Laurents video when he disconnected the cap,and an arc could be seen in the reed switch-->no unicorn power here.

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Offline gyulasun

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Hi Laurent,

I wrote that to widen the pulse width for the HV coil the 1 uF capacitor needs to be increased. Now that I watched the scope waveforms on your scope when you removed the 1 uF capacitor, the pulse width actually increased to cca 2.2 ms (video time 9:17-9:18) from the cca 1.8-1.9 ms pulse width when the cap was included. The pulse amplitude got reduced to cca 36 Vpp no cap from the cca 80 Vpp amplitude with the 1 uF cap in place.
So very probably my suggestion of using 2.2 uF will not widen the pulse width, sorry for this, albeit it may influence the amplitude a little.
The bottom line is that the high DC resistance of the HV coil prevents getting higher gain in RPM, it would be worth to replace it with a less lossy HV coil. Unfortunately, this would involve the use of thicker wire than the present one. 

Gyula

Offline shylo

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Hi Luc

Thank's very much for sharing your experiment, and it seems to work very well.
What puzzle me is the fact that the very sharp fly back spike normally has almost no energy, it has very high voltage peak, but very low current, and if you connect a diode and a capacitor, it takes a lot of pulsse to charge it to obtain some power. But in your design the cap get a real power at each pulse.
So i think that we have to think of what happen in the fly back spike itself.
How does the flybackspike "capture " this energy ?

https://youtu.be/tag5OlvPi54

Thank's

Laurent
Hi Woppy, It's easy to capture the flyback spike.
But timing is everything.
Introduce lenz when you want it.
push instead of pull.
Gravity , needs to be considered.
I'm trying to find the balance between the two.
I think magnetic fields should be used as shearing forces.
artv

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Offline MileHigh

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I think that it is important to reiterate that this is not a "discovery" and has never been a discovery.  People in the 1920s fully understood the dynamics of a discharging inductor.  It's just the mirror image of a discharging capacitor.  There is no mystery, no secret, no discovery.

In the real world you would be very hard pressed to find a pulse motor running in a practical application.  I can't think of one offhand.

There is a story that I am sure that you have read many times out of the JB universe and that of his associates or former associates.  The story goes something like this:  "We set up our pulse motor demo system at the show and were showing it powering LED lights and charging batteries.  An engineer came over to our table and we showed him the battery charging and he just scratched his head and did not understand what he was looking at and wandered away with a lost look on his face."

I have read that story at least five times.  The story is complete crap.  Really, truly, complete nonsensical crap.   And there is an ironic twist to the story:  JB does not explain to his followers how the discharging coil that charges the charging battery works.  He does not teach this.  Therefore, all of the hardcore JB devotees that say it's "radiant energy" have no clue what is actually happening.  They don't understand why the neons light up when the charging battery is disconnected and they don't understand why the "voltage spike" almost completely disappears when the charging battery is reconnected.  You can pay $350 to go to a conference and spend 3/4 of a day building a pulse motor and they will not hold a seminar to teach you how it actually works.  I find that very annoying.  Just like I find it annoying that they don't tell you that when you transfer energy from the source battery to the charging battery via the famous spike that you lose about 40% of your energy.  There is no "chemistry magic" when the misnamed "radiant spike" charges the charging battery.  Likewise, measuring battery voltages is not a legitimate way to measure the state of charge of the charging battery.  That's just a smokescreen to disguise the fact that in actual reality you are losing about 40% of your source battery energy when you transfer it to the charging battery using pulses of current.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 06:27:00 AM by gotoluc »

Offline synchro1

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I attached a 120 volt A.C. LED bulb directly to the charge circuit of a Bedini SSG and measured the Lumens. Only perhaps 17 percent of the input power was recovered this way. Woopy's capacitor is receiving a charge from the magnet rotor which is apparently bouncing back to the output coil in synchronized timing of the back spike. The power driving the rotor is mostly generated by the rotor and timed by the back spike. The actual power transferred to the output coil from the power coil is relatively insignificant. The back spike timing is the critical factor in the exceptional performance of this ingenious build.

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Offline gotoluc

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Hi Luc

Thank's very much for sharing your experiment, and it seems to work very well.
What puzzle me is the fact that the very sharp fly back spike normally has almost no energy, it has very high voltage peak, but very low current, and if you connect a diode and a capacitor, it takes a lot of pulsse to charge it to obtain some power. But in your design the cap get a real power at each pulse.
So i think that we have to think of what happen in the fly back spike itself.
How does the flybackspike "capture " this energy ?

https://youtu.be/tag5OlvPi54

Thank's

Laurent

Merci Laurent!... I could not of asked for a better replicator. You understood everything I have shared and you have made an excellent demo device and video documentary.

Thanks for sharing and continue thinking of all the other possibilities of using this most amazing and powerful magnetic field in our favor.

Here is a hint for your excellent demo ;) ... imagine if Art Porter would of used this to assist his GAP PM Flux Gate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnWuPzAKigs
I don't think he did anything with his flyback and it looks like he used mid impedance coils to lock the flux gate which is costly in input power as much is wasted in coil resistance.

I'm suggesting a high Impedance coils can hold a magnetic field for much long then a mid or low impedance coils but you want to load them with flyback of a super low impedance coils (below 1 ohm).
Initially you start the magnetic field with a short pulse in the low impedance coil which will make a good magnetic field and not waste power in resistance but in return it converts the current to a super fast high voltage spike which is in perfect condition for a high impedance coil and will create a powerful and long lasting magnetic field (chose ideal cap for holding time).
So let's use it to our advantage in hopes to change the world.

See videos below on how a high impedance coil alone can be used to hold a magnetic field. So after the peak pulse they can also be shorted to hold the flux even longer. So imagine how little input power a PM flux gate needs to allow magnets to do work!!!

Part1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHbQXnXK6Xc
Part2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY

Collect every MOT you can

Luc´╗┐
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 08:27:39 AM by gotoluc »

Offline gotoluc

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I'm glad people are starting to look at this using the many different methods to harvest and use the spike. This is what John Bedini and others have been talking about for years. Try it on the window motor with the full or even half bipolar Bedini/Cole switch or even the zero force... - you will all be amazed!
Cheers - Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I am quite familiar with JB work.
What is being shared here is very different from SSG and other things that have been built by him or Peter L. for that matter.

If you want flyback that can do work like I and woopy have demonstrated it must come out of a low Impedance coil (very low DC resistance). So this is not the same.

I will ask you and everyone else to refrain from posting any comments related to their work as it is not the same or taken from them.
I'm also not associated with the business of selling secrets for money.

Everything I do I give it free of charge in hope to make this world a better place.
You won't even find advertising on any of my videos.

Regards

Luc

EDIT: I have gone though all the posts and have deleted the posts that are off topic. Please keep it on topic and don't introduce other peoples work.

ADDED:

To MileHigh and others who wish to debate about other thing that are not directly related to this topic. I have split the topic and you can debate to your hearts content there:
http://overunity.com/16186/debates-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg465996/#msg465996

From now on, those who wish to debate please use the debate topic above or I'll delete your post if I find it doesn't fit here.

Luc
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:06:14 AM by gotoluc »

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Offline minoly

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Hi Luc,
Wow! you deleted my post... amazing. I better watch what I say - I thought it was very tame. Others have said worse.
In your first videos you show how the cap is necessary and without it the spike is "lost" and can not be converted.
Have you been able harness the spike to assist in rotation without a cap then? Also, in your last video you said this is all you will share with the public???
Thanks Luc,
Patrick





Hi Patrick,

I am quite familiar with JB work.
What is being shared here is very different from SSG and other things that have been built by him or Peter L. for that matter.

If you want flyback that can do work like I and woopy have demonstrated it must come out of a low Impedance coil (very low DC resistance). So this is not the same.

I will ask you and everyone else to refrain from posting any comments related to their work as it is not the same or taken from them.
I'm also not associated with the business of selling secrets for money.

Everything I do I give it free of charge in hope to make this world a better place.
You won't even find advertising on any of my videos.

Regards

Luc

EDIT: I have gone though all the posts and have deleted the posts that are off topic. Please keep it on topic and don't introduce other peoples work.

ADDED:

To MileHigh and others who wish to debate about other thing that are not directly related to this topic. I have split the topic and you can debate to your hearts content there:
http://overunity.com/16186/debates-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg465996/#msg465996

From now on, those who wish to debate please use the debate topic above or I'll delete your post if I find it doesn't fit here.

Luc


Offline gotoluc

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Hi Luc,
Wow! you deleted my post... amazing. I better watch what I say - I thought it was very tame. Others have said worse.

Hope you understand it's not a personal thing. It's about keeping the topic very focused so future replicators won't get confused.

In your first videos you show how the cap is necessary and without it the spike is "lost" and can not be converted.
Have you been able harness the spike to assist in rotation without a cap then?

In this video I demonstrated it can also assist without a cap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dmKEOWOhQA
Depends on may factors. In time or if you experiment you will understand and chose what you want.

Also, in your last video you said this is all you will share with the public???
Thanks Luc,
Patrick

Woopy made me happy so I gave one idea away.

So are you going to build something?

Luc

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Offline minoly

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Luc, understand this, I build everything I can. I'm not one of those fly-by-night commenters who thinks they know everything. I have experimented with this for some time and have many videos. I still don't understand, you say you share for free - yet you still have many secrets.
regarding the video you show the high voltage coil being used without a CAP, that is a different type of experiment from my question. my question was "Have you been able harness the spike to assist in rotation without a cap then?"[/size]
I'm not taking away from that experiment that was very nice!
no worries,
Patrick



Hope you understand it's not a personal thing. It's about keeping the topic very focused so future replicators won't get confused.

In this video I demonstrated it can also assist without a cap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dmKEOWOhQA
Depends on may factors. In time or if you experiment you will understand and chose what you want.

Woopy made me happy so I gave one idea away.

So are you going to build something?

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Luc, understand this, I build everything I can. I'm not one of those fly-by-night commenters who thinks they know everything. I have experimented with this for some time and have many videos.

Please post the link to your video experiments so we can see your work.

I still don't understand, you say you share for free - yet you still have many secrets.

Have I not shared the above to woopy and anyone else who reads this topic?... I don't appreciate your tone or unfounded accusation.
Let's see what you have shared over the years

regarding the video you show the high voltage coil being used without a CAP, that is a different type of experiment from my question. my question was "Have you been able harness the spike to assist in rotation without a cap then?"

Maybe you need to do the experiment?

Regards

Luc


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Offline woopy

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Hi Luc

Thank's for your encouragement. Very intersting and inspiring video.
I have made a test where it is clear that the flybackspike is really powerfull, as it can spin the rotor quite esaily without the magnetic field of the main motor coil. Very encouraging
.
https://youtu.be/y4S3XvloAnM

Hi Guyla
Thank's for your input. I have made a second video (just above) which will answer a part of your question. Concerning the capacitance, the best rpm i can get with my device as it is is 0.3 uF. Now concerning the impedance of the assistant coil i will see what i can do.


Hi all
Thank's for kind word, and please feel free to replicate

Laurent

Offline gotoluc

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Thanks again Laurent for this new video demo.

I would suggest that the cap is used to adjust the pulse width (magnetic field on time) of the HV coil. Too much on time can slow the rotor but may prove to have more torque for certain applications and too little on time would not hold the magnetic field long enough to pull or push the rotor magnet or core through.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline Jimboot

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Thanks Woopy, that was an excellent tutorial & demo. I haven't watched your last one Luc but I have been testing a few of the things you've demonstrated on a couple of motors. I'll be doing a replication tonight and testing various coil configs. Great work guys.

Offline MileHigh

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Thanks again Laurent for this new video demo.

I would suggest that the cap is used to adjust the pulse width (magnetic field on time) of the HV coil. Too much on time can slow the rotor but may prove to have more torque for certain applications and too little on time would not hold the magnetic field long enough to pull or push the rotor magnet or core through.

I watched Laurent's video and there were some interesting things revealed.

However, for starters, I think Laurent made some mistakes.  He needed longer wires connected to the main drive coil so that he could move it much farther away from the rotor when he wanted to eliminate the influence of the main drive coil on the spinning rotor.  Perhaps adding another 30 cm of wire would have allowed him to move the main drive coil a safe distance away from the rotor.  The second issue is that I don't think he gave the rotor enough time spin down and stabilize at a new RPM after the main drive coil was partially removed from influencing the rotor.  It's a hard drive bearing motor, so perhaps waiting at least 45 seconds to a minute would be required to let the rotor stabilize at a new speed when only being driven by the high-voltage coil.

You can clearly see a trend in Laurent's clip with respect to the changing of the capacitor:  If you increase the value of the capacitor the maximum voltage decreases and the discharge time increases.  Likewise if you decrease the value of the capacitor the maximum voltage increases and the discharge time decreases.

Now, if your goal is to get the highest RPM for your rotor, that suggests you want to have the high-voltage coil switched ON so the rotor magnet gets a push from one pole and a pull from the other pole of the high-voltage coil.  You want the high-voltage coil to switch OFF at the end of the pull phase.  This is a function of the ON time, the angle subtended by the two poles of the high-voltage coil, and the RPM of the rotor when it stabilizes at maximum speed.

One more time, this all is an investigation into the timing analysis of the motor.  It's hard to find that "Goldilocks" timing with fixed components, but nothing is stopping you from playing with the value of the capacitor live while the motor is running.  What you do need though is an accurate timing reference.  The easiest way to do that would be to use a small independent pick-up coil to sense the rotor magnet fly-bys and trigger on that.  You "sacrifice" a scope channel for that but then you are not "flying blind."  You can use your second scope channel to look at other events and know exactly what the rotor position is relative to those other events.  Timing is everything when it comes to a pulse motor.

Another option if you are hard core is to look at TK's MHOP clips and make an "LED strobe-scope" or "LED timing gun" and look at the rotor spinning in dim light with the LED illumination revealing the timing to you.

 

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