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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 210828 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Quote
Too much on time can slow the rotor but may prove to have more torque for certain applications and too little on time would not hold the magnetic field long enough to pull or push the rotor magnet or core through.

I think that you are overlooking one fundamental thing.  If the ON time is long or short, you are still dealing with exactly the same amount of energy in the pulse.  So the question is how do you get the maximum amount of rotor bang for your fixed pulse energy buck?  In my previous posting I am suggesting a precise "Goldilocks" pulse timing that may get the most (push + pull) from the high-voltage coil if the pulse timing is exactly the right width and exactly the right position relative to the high-voltage coil in time but who knows, perhaps a shorter more powerful pulse (same energy) would be better.

There are more suggested questions and investigations leading out of Laurent's clip:

Why does the capacitor voltage get higher when he moves the main drive coil away from the rotor?

Laurent exclaims that the high-voltage coil gives a comparable push to the main low-voltage drive coil.  That suggests an important question:  How much electrical energy per pulse can you estimate goes into the main low-voltage drive coil vs. how much energy goes into the high-voltage drive coil?  How do you make measurements to compare the two?  This will give you hard numbers about the relative propulsive force of the high-voltage coil as compared to the low-voltage coil.  This is the very essence of your experiment.

Finally, there is an outstanding question that becomes even more important considering what was just mentioned above:  The high-voltage coil is quite a high resistance and therefore there are certainly a lot of resistive losses in the high-voltage coil.  How high are the resistive losses in the high-voltage coil and how do you measure them?  How does that compare to the pulse energy that you put into the high-voltage coil.

These are serious real-world questions about what you guys are doing.  If you choose to ignore them because you don't know what to do that's your choice.  What I think you guys should really do is really discuss these issues and get your juices flowing and try to figure these things out among yourselves.  It's the difference between doing an "experiment" that is little more than observing your motor in action vs. truly trying to understand the energy dynamics and trying to optimize your motor.  This is all up to you guys for yourselves.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MoRo

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Thanks again Woopy! Very nice info!

And what about the back-spike coming off of the back-spike coil... Could a second reed switch be positioned so as to use it's back-spike ALSO on a third coil? (etc. etc. etc.)

Main coil - Reed switch - back-spike to (coil & Cap) - Reed switch - back-spike to (coil & Cap) - Reed switch - back-spike to (coil & Cap)

Just thinking of ideas here.

Offline gyulasun

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Hi Laurent,

Thanks for your new video with the interesting tests.

So my first estimation on increasing the 1 uF to make the pulse width wider was good but then this reduced the rotor RPM.  :(

With your second 1 uF added to the first 1 uF, the pulse width widened to 3 ms from the 2 ms but the peak amplitude went down to cca 62 Vpp from the cca 90 Vpp. This makes sense because the flyback pulse via the diode has a more or less given energy content from the collapsing field and the 2 uF capacitor with the same 1.8 H coil clearly represents a heavier load to the pulse than the 1 uF cap with the same 1.8 H does as MileHigh described this.
This means that if the goal is to get the highest pushing or pulling force at the ends of the C core it is the peak voltage across the HV coil which is to be maximized as you mentioned in the video because max peak voltages can give max peak currents which participate in the Amper-turns.
You mentioned you found the 0.3 uF cap value where the rotor RPM was the highest. This surely means that the peak voltage across the HV coil must have gone well above the earlier 90 Vpp value. The 0.3 uF gives resonance at as high as 216.5 Hz with the 1.8 H coil, this means the parallel LC circuit remains a capacitive load for the flyback pulse even at the increased rotor RPM too.

Greetings,
Gyula

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Offline MoRo

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Another Idea,

If we are looking to make a magnified magnetic motive force from the back-spike, then maybe try running the back-spike through a step-up transformer first to increase the voltage spike to even higher voltages, then send that spiked-up energy to multiple High voltage electromagnet cores (stators).

As Newman said, he runs his motors off of voltage.

The higher voltage overrides the wire resistance to create a magnetic field through many many many turns of wire. Once the magnetic field exist though, evidently the choice of capacitor will determine the rate of magnetic field collapse. In the mean time, the magnetic field can be used to produce great torque.

I don't have the ability to test the above, but sure would like to see from Luc or Woopy if stepping up the voltage will in fact allow multiple High voltage electromagnet cores vs. one electromagnet core without a voltage step-up.

MagnaMoRo

Offline Magluvin

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Hi Luc

Thank's for your encouragement. Very intersting and inspiring video.
I have made a test where it is clear that the flybackspike is really powerfull, as it can spin the rotor quite esaily without the magnetic field of the main motor coil. Very encouraging
.
https://youtu.be/y4S3XvloAnM

Hi Guyla
Thank's for your input. I have made a second video (just above) which will answer a part of your question. Concerning the capacitance, the best rpm i can get with my device as it is is 0.3 uF. Now concerning the impedance of the assistant coil i will see what i can do.


Hi all
Thank's for kind word, and please feel free to replicate

Laurent

Hey Woopy.

Probably seen it before and may not be what you are doing with the caps, but it does show a single drive coil powered by a battery with a reed switch and the bemf is taken from the first coil and sent to other a cap bank to power a second drive coil. And then the bemf from the second drive coil to charge a very bad battery.
The second drive coil here also helps the rotor to pick up speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXxvAQ_mdUk

Mags

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Offline gotoluc

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Hey Woopy.

Probably seen it before and may not be what you are doing with the caps, but it does show a single drive coil powered by a battery with a reed switch and the bemf is taken from the first coil and sent to other a cap bank to power a second drive coil. And then the bemf from the second drive coil to charge a very bad battery.
The second drive coil here also helps the rotor to pick up speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXxvAQ_mdUk

Mags

Sorry Mags, but this is not what we are doing here and overcomplicated.
I have always respected you and your research. However, I need to keep this topic simple and not a consortium of different experiments. So I hope you understand if I delete your post and this one tomorrow.

Kind regards and please feel free to replicate what is being shared here.

Luc

Offline tinman

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Sorry Mags, but this is not what we are doing here and overcomplicated.
I have always respected you and your research. However, I need to keep this topic simple and not a consortium of different experiments. So I hope you understand if I delete your post and this one tomorrow.

Kind regards and please feel free to replicate what is being shared here.

Luc

Luc
Mags system is much the same-just a little more advanced. He collects the backEMF,and drives a second coil with it-this is what Woopy is doing. The difference is that Mags can trigger the second coil with that captured energy with the second reed switch. He then also captures the backEMF from the second coil,and uses that to charge a battery,where as Woopy looses that within the cap/inductor set up on the second coil.

Mag's is well within the thread title-more so than others ATM as far as i can see
Quote title: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback

Brad

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Offline seychelles

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I concur with tinman mags is one step ahead of the average BEAR BOBO.

Offline MileHigh

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I looked at Luc's first clip:  Sharing ideas, how to build a more efficient motor (p.1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLcBD3Fy7M

When he has the high-voltage coil in the MOT core and no capacitor there is no perceptible attraction with the transformer core top plate.   Then when he ads the 11 uF capacitor to the circuit then there is fairly strong attraction with the transformer core top plate.

It begs the question, why is there no perceptible attraction when there is no capacitor?  Note that in both cases the same BEMF pulse energy is coming from the motor drive coil.   I just find it somewhat unusual that there is no perceptible attraction with no capacitor in the circuit.  Also, what happens to the attractive force as the capacitor gets larger and larger?

This is for Luc and all others interested in this subject to ponder and try to explain.  You are trying to use a second coil to do work on the rotor to make it spin faster so it behooves you to want to understand the why and how behind these issues.

One more time, this is about the difference between just observing the effects and taking note of them  (a "demonstration"), and observing the effects and then understanding the how and why that explain the observed effects (an "experiment.")

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline minoly

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This is what I was trying to point out, let's see if your words stick better than mine...
Magluvin is putting the spike to a cap and rather than using 100% of it on one pulse, he is switching it with another reed to another "same voltage coil" and conserving even more to a second battery.


This is a different nuance than what Luc is doing however, as MH states one has to do all the experiments to observe each effect. You don't however have to post a vid each time to prove anything to anyone.


It's all about the spike.


I feel this post is on topic however you might delete it anyway either way I'm still getting a lot out of reading every post in this thread.
Thanks!


I looked at Luc's first clip:  Sharing ideas, how to build a more efficient motor (p.1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLcBD3Fy7M

When he has the high-voltage coil in the MOT core and no capacitor there is no perceptible attraction with the transformer core top plate.   Then when he ads the 11 uF capacitor to the circuit then there is fairly strong attraction with the transformer core top plate.

It begs the question, why is there no perceptible attraction when there is no capacitor?  Note that in both cases the same BEMF pulse energy is coming from the motor drive coil.   I just find it somewhat unusual that there is no perceptible attraction with no capacitor in the circuit.  Also, what happens to the attractive force as the capacitor gets larger and larger?

This is for Luc and all others interested in this subject to ponder and try to explain.  You are trying to use a second coil to do work on the rotor to make it spin faster so it behooves you to want to understand the why and how behind these issues.

One more time, this is about the difference between just observing the effects and taking note of them  (a "demonstration"), and observing the effects and then understanding the how and why that explain the observed effects (an "experiment.")

Offline gotoluc

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Luc
Mags system is much the same-just a little more advanced. He collects the backEMF,and drives a second coil with it-this is what Woopy is doing. The difference is that Mags can trigger the second coil with that captured energy with the second reed switch. He then also captures the backEMF from the second coil,and uses that to charge a battery,where as Woopy looses that within the cap/inductor set up on the second coil.

Mag's is well within the thread title-more so than others ATM as far as i can see
Quote title: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback

Brad

Thanks for your input Brad.
I understand quite well what Mags has done and I have made similar tests and circuits many years back but have not shared it as the Low impedance to Low impedance to once again Low impedance process did not produce favorable results. Much is lost in the conversions.

The idea I'm sharing is simple, it's a Low impedance to High impedance motor assistance. It does not involve any circuitry, just 2 passive components.

You're suggesting that both can do the same, so I challenge TinMan Power ;) to build both and report which one you find to best assist a motor.
Think of it as a PMBO challenge ;D

Thanks for your input

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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I looked at Luc's first clip:  Sharing ideas, how to build a more efficient motor (p.1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLcBD3Fy7M

When he has the high-voltage coil in the MOT core and no capacitor there is no perceptible attraction with the transformer core top plate.   Then when he ads the 11 uF capacitor to the circuit then there is fairly strong attraction with the transformer core top plate.

It begs the question, why is there no perceptible attraction when there is no capacitor?  Note that in both cases the same BEMF pulse energy is coming from the motor drive coil.   I just find it somewhat unusual that there is no perceptible attraction with no capacitor in the circuit.  Also, what happens to the attractive force as the capacitor gets larger and larger?

This is for Luc and all others interested in this subject to ponder and try to explain.  You are trying to use a second coil to do work on the rotor to make it spin faster so it behooves you to want to understand the why and how behind these issues.

One more time, this is about the difference between just observing the effects and taking note of them  (a "demonstration"), and observing the effects and then understanding the how and why that explain the observed effects (an "experiment.")

With and without the capacitor. It's much the same as to why a vehicle going a set speed can be stopped quicker if you dont lock up the brakes and skid the wheels. Voltage leads current in an inductor,and if the applied voltage pulse is to quick and short,then there will be very little current that follows. However,if that spike is sent to a capacitor where the current leads the voltage,then you can be assured that the inductor will receive all of the !now stored! energy from that inductive kickback that was stored within the cap.

Offline tinman

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Thanks for your input Brad.
I understand quite well what Mags has done and I have made similar tests and circuits many years back but have not shared it as the Low impedance to Low impedance to once again Low impedance process did not produce favorable results. Much is lost in the conversions.

The idea I'm sharing is simple, it's a Low impedance to High impedance motor assistance. It does not involve any circuitry, just 2 passive components.

You're suggesting that both can do the same, so I challenge TinMan Power ;) to build both and report which one you find to best assist a motor.
Think of it as a PMBO challenge ;D

Thanks for your input

Luc

I accept that challenge.
But i can tell you now with some certainty that a low impedance secondary coil will perform better due to lower resistive losses ;)

Offline woopy

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Hi all
Thank's for info and proposals.
This setup in my videos is made to test Gotoluc's proposition concerning the flybackspike recovery.
Sofar i can confirm that the rotor spins easily and steadily when motorised by the "assistant" coil only.
Now for sure, those first and crude results are  encouraging and  motivating to go to a much better documented experiment.
Perhaps there will be people there to go in this direction.

Now one thing continues to puzzle me.

My beginner's knowledge indicates that, during the pulse, the main (low voltage ) motor coil, get a certain amount of electric energy (voltage and current) from the power station. This energy is dissipated for a small part in  heat due to the impedance of the coil and for the main part in building a magnetic field . During the building of the magnetic field its magnetic strength increases with the increasing current in the inductor and propels the rotor magnet which get kinetic energy.
So it seems to me, that at the end of the pulse, all the electrical input energy should have been transformed in some heat and the kinetic energy of the rotor, yes or not? And  the magnetic field seems to stay there at its max strength until the end of the pulse. yes or not?
Than it seems commonly admitted that at the end of the pulse, the magnetic field brutally collapses and creates the flybackspike.
But if the input energy is totally dissipated at the end of the pulse, how does the collapsing magnetic field create this powerfull flybackspike ? What is the process ?

Thank' to pardon my ignorance, but i am missing something here.

Laurent

Offline synchro1

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Hi all
Thank's for info and proposals.
This setup in my videos is made to test Gotoluc's proposition concerning the flybackspike recovery.
Sofar i can confirm that the rotor spins easily and steadily when motorised by the "assistant" coil only.
Now for sure, those first and crude results are  encouraging and  motivating to go to a much better documented experiment.
Perhaps there will be people there to go in this direction.

Now one thing continues to puzzle me.

My beginner's knowledge indicates that, during the pulse, the main (low voltage ) motor coil, get a certain amount of electric energy (voltage and current) from the power station. This energy is dissipated for a small part in  heat due to the impedance of the coil and for the main part in building a magnetic field . During the building of the magnetic field its magnetic strength increases with the increasing current in the inductor and propels the rotor magnet which get kinetic energy.
So it seems to me, that at the end of the pulse, all the electrical input energy should have been transformed in some heat and the kinetic energy of the rotor, yes or not? And  the magnetic field seems to stay there at its max strength until the end of the pulse. yes or not?
Than it seems commonly admitted that at the end of the pulse, the magnetic field brutally collapses and creates the flybackspike.
But if the input energy is totally dissipated at the end of the pulse, how does the collapsing magnetic field create this powerfull flybackspike ? What is the process ?

Thank' to pardon my ignorance, but i am missing something here.

Laurent

@Laurent,

This goes back to Nicola's very first invention: The "Spark Gap Generator". Simply a capacitor with two electrodes over head. The capacitor charge begins to increase naturally, one plate grounded and the other attached to an antenna and collector. The resistance between the air gap spark electrodes begins to decrease as the intensity of the electro magnetic field from the capacitor plates increases resulting in a sudden spark discharge and magnetic field collapse. The "Arc of the Covenent" was just such a generator.

Tesla theorized that there were two ways to generate power: One; Magnetic field collapse and the other; "Faraday Induction". The field collapse generates a "Longitudinal Wave" that reaches the limits of the Universe in all dimensions down to the Quanta and to the ends of the Cosmos instantaneously.

This invokes the "Broadcast Power Equation". The power of a violent field collapse is infinite! Think about this!

Radio had it's beginnings when European experimenters, long before Tesla, discovered that a field collapse could excite iron filings at a remote distance. The B.C. "Arc" could play this trick! This combination could signal a coordinated attack command to separate concealed regiments!

 

 

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