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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 210890 times)

Offline gyulasun

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People tend to neglect preciously listening to details.  When input current is switched on at a moment,  from that moment on till 5 times L/R time the current increases and magnetic field in and around the coil also increases in strength.  After the 5*L/R time elapses, a steady current flows in the coil and its magnetic field settles at a constant value.  (R means the total DC resistance of coil and its closed circuit via the battery and the energy content of the field is E= L*I*I/2  where I is the instantaneous value of the current, L is the coil inductance.)

When you switch off the current, the magnetic field starts to collapse. This means if it was just increasing in strength, then it suddenly starts decreasing in strength but it cannot change its earlier poles at the coil's end: what was North pole at one end it still remains North pole, just the intensity of the North pole reduces drastically at the moment of the current switch-off.

This flux change i.e. from an increase to a decrease direction  (or from a steady state value to a much lower value down to zero) of same poles is which flips the induced voltage polarity across the coil with respect to the voltage polarity the input battery established.  To compare this increase-decrease field change, imagine you approach a magnet towards the end of a ferromagnetic core (no coil is needed for this comparison) and then you stop the magnet say 2mm from the core then you start to move the magnet away from the core along the same straith line the approach happened, then the change of the magnetic filed strength in the core represents the event that happens when you switch the current off in a coil.  The rest of the process is also included in Tinman's nice explanation in his above post, no need to repeat.


Dear MileHigh,

you wrote:

"There is a somewhat ironic situation happening.  This thread is about a "more efficient motor" and only myself and Tinman have mentioned that the high-voltage coil has a relatively high resistance and that means more losses."

Well, please be more attentive because I also wrote about the 210 Ohm DC resistance as a loss in the HV coil in Reply 11, in the last but one paragraph, just after Laurent showed his first video replication:

http://overunity.com/16167/sharing-ideas-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg465969/#msg465969 

Of course I do not consider this forum as a pissing contest, just I ask you to be more attentive, that is all.
One more thing: Laurent just tested the concept as he said and obviously  did not design for low loss, I think he just used coils, components at hand.

Thanks,
Gyula

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Offline woopy

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Hi all

Yes very intersting development here, thank's to all for participating.

As i have the motor , i spent some time to place a 1 ohm current sensing resistor all arround the flyback ciscuit.

1- direct in the flybackspike just between  the output of the main (low voltage) coil and the diode, there is a very very narrow and strong current spike (peak at arround 1.3 A ) directed from coil to diode
2- Almost the same between the diode and the cap entry, but just after the spike,there is a very small and wide "opposed direction" current trace followed by   very little ringing (difficult to say because the trace is noisy)
3 almost the same between the output of the cap and the entry of the main (low voltage ) coil,
4- between the entry of the cap and the high voltage coil (assistant) there is a very small and wide current trace corresponding to  (2) or the discharge of the cap in the assistant coil.

So this confirm what Timan showed in his graphic.

Now the fact that there is almost no ringing, confirm also that the high voltage coil seems to  prevent almost totally the resonance of the tank circuit and maintain the slow and regular discharge of the cap which provide the usable secondary pulse .

So we will see if Tinman can get the same or better result with a lower voltage assistant coil.

Just for info i have tried to calculate the average power of the pulse  of the main coil and the assistant coil.  (calculation of the pulse duration only ,not the complete cycle) As said this  is quite difficult because the noisy trace of the very low current input in the assistant coil.

I have edited this part because i have to redo my calculation, because the main pulse and his son ( the pulse of the assistant Coil) are not of the same duration.


Hope this helps

laurent
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 04:51:32 PM by woopy »

Offline synchro1

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Bub ???

No, the current dose not revers polarity in the primary inductor-only the voltage dose.
You have confused current flow direction with current flow path.

OK,i will try one more time.
Please see attached pic below.
 Diagram at top shows conventional current flow when reed switch is closed.
 Diagram at bottom shows conventional current flow when reed switch opens.
As you can see by the red arrows,the current continues to flow in the !same! direction through the primary coil when the reed switch opend. You only have to look at the diode direction in the picture you posted of Woopy's circuit to see that this is true. If the current flow reversed as you say,then the diode would have to be turned around in order for that flyback current to flow into the cap/inductor combo on the secondary.

The cap will charge first with the flyback current,as it has a lower series resistance than that of the high turn coil. The cap will then start to discharge into the secondary coil as it reaches peak volatge. This is the reason for the !almost! linear discharge through the secondary coil,and the absence of resonant oscillations.

Hope that clears things up.

@Tinman,

There's no path back to the positive electrode for the reversed current with the Reed switch open. Positioning the diode at the top of the coil and connecting it to the positive electrode would send the current in the other direction backwards through the Primary to source. The destination determines the current polarity. The negative ground is the destination of the power pulse; Then the reversed current polarity seeks a positive ground!

You caused this same kind of confusion in that Universal motor schematic you passed to Chris Sykes on the bucking coil thread.

Charged capacitors resist change in voltage just like inductors. The sitting charge on the capacitor would determine the destination of the flyback, either through the inductor or to the cap. The LC tank is not isolated but part of a magnet rotor charging system. The spinning magnet rotor is causing a "Lenz Related" issue with the inductor that's outside the other factor. One the other or both, the flyback causes the capacitor to discharge into the Hi-voltage coil to accelerate the magnet rotor with a power pulse.

You're trying to maintain that a current can exist with a reversed voltage polarity. This is impossible! The current changes direction headed towards an opposite ground albeit by a circuitous path. The path is illusory, the direction of the current is switched from negative to positive inside the primary after the magnetic field collapse.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 07:00:43 PM by synchro1 »

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Offline gyulasun

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Hi Laurent,

I indicated with red X where I think you meant the positionings of the 1 Ohm resistor around the circuit, please correct me if I made any mistake and I will redraw it.

Would it be possible to take photos (snapshots) of the 4 waveforms on the scope you described in points 1 to 4? That would be better for everyone I suppose.

Thanks
Gyula

Offline minoly

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I wish I was coming to new understandings however I'm still having problems grasping the terminology.


A lot can happen in 24 hours of missed reading... I notice many are off topic. Tinman - thanks for trying to explain how a fluxgate can make a motor work to me. I'm so new to that terminology though, I'm hoping someone can break it down for me in simple step by step terms.


This is what Luc is trying to do right? Luc is not taking the spike from a coil on a rotor and then putting it to another coil to make it spin faster. He is using a fluxgate to make a motor work. However, I've looked up fluxgate and still can not figure out how to make a motor work with one.


So, putting the spike to a "high voltage coil" makes the coil stay magnetized longer which can electromagnetically hold onto a load longer, which has it's own uses, but I can't think of how to make a fluxgate make a motor work. Perhaps stronger at slower speeds? More torque? Or am I completely off and is what Laurent is doing exactly what you are after?


Can someone point me in the right direction as I believe this is the topic?



Yes Shylo, great thread!

Please feel free to share more if you can as 5x more sounds very interesting.

I'm very happy to see everyone's participation and some of us coming to new understandings.
Even if my ideas don't improve a motors efficiency we will all come out of it with something which should be the spirit of this forum.

Thanks to all for sharing

Luc

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Offline nilrehob

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Hi All,

I have written about this CLL system in my 4th paper at:

https://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/elementary-physics

named 4-increasing-magnetic-flux.pdf. Increasing magnetic flux in the inductance domain is the same as increasing charge in the capacitance domain which I show in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZcvOWSXcbU which in turn is the same as increasing momentum in the mass domain which I wrote about in my 2nd paper called 2-increasing-momentum-or-charge.pdf.

It is really simple and I love the way you guys have proved it!

You can think of it as a small mass colliding elastically with a big mass. In your case the inductors are the masses and the capacitor is the spring that makes the colission elastic. If the big mass is standing still before the collision, as the coil with hi inductance is with no current, the sum of the absolute value of the momentums increase, in this case the sum of the absolute value of the magnetic fluxs increase.

In the video above I show it for two capacitors and a coil. One big cap with no charge and one small cap discharging through a coil to make the collision elastic. Its the same thing, the sum of the absolute value of the charges increase.

/Hob


Offline woopy

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Hi Guyla

You are correct

Here some pics
 
your X1 is pic 1 and 2
your X2 is pic 3 and 4
your X3 is pic 5 and 6
your X4 is pic 7 and 8

Hope this helps

Laurent

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Offline MoRo

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I wish I was coming to new understandings however I'm still having problems grasping the terminology.


A lot can happen in 24 hours of missed reading... I notice many are off topic. Tinman - thanks for trying to explain how a fluxgate can make a motor work to me. I'm so new to that terminology though, I'm hoping someone can break it down for me in simple step by step terms.


This is what Luc is trying to do right? Luc is not taking the spike from a coil on a rotor and then putting it to another coil to make it spin faster. He is using a fluxgate to make a motor work. However, I've looked up fluxgate and still can not figure out how to make a motor work with one.


So, putting the spike to a "high voltage coil" makes the coil stay magnetized longer which can electromagnetically hold onto a load longer, which has it's own uses, but I can't think of how to make a fluxgate make a motor work. Perhaps stronger at slower speeds? More torque? Or am I completely off and is what Laurent is doing exactly what you are after?


Can someone point me in the right direction as I believe this is the topic?

SUBJECT: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficient motor using Fly-back

By 'more efficient' we mean: 'over-unity'; COP > 1
By 'using Fly-back' we mean: by using the energy received back from a primary coil after the initial source energizing said primary coil has been switched off.

Problems to overcome: how to best use the energy received back.

The terms:
Yes, understanding what is actually happening in a circuit can be difficult to understand. We can't see electricity. Our understanding comes from observable phenomena. This requires experimentation and deep thought. Many diagrams do not reflect what is actually happening. I myself try to visualize what is actually happening at any given moment on an atomic level with any given section of a circuit, including the connecting wires. So, for example, I don't really like the words 'current' or 'flow'. these words imply that something is flowing through the wire. I don't believe that assumption to be correct, because the wires are solid. To best explain what is observed I believe there is simply 'voltage pressure' which causes a phase change away from normal in every single atom of a conductor that is in-between a potential difference. Apply voltage pressure one way and the atoms push back (resist). The resistance is exposed as a polarized field around the conductor,  Shut off the voltage quickly and the atoms snap back to neutral phase quickly, perhaps even 'ringing' a little like a stiff spring. The greater the voltage the grater the atom goes out-of-phase, until you apply enough voltage to blow the atom itself off.

My other observations:
Luc's microwave core is more efficient. Why? because the copper windings don't just have an iron core passing through the middle of it, but the windings actually have soft iron material all the way around it creating a magnetic loop when the cover plate is placed on top. So the core surface area (the area against the core windings) is very important in the design of the electromagnet to achieve greater power from the available area.

Offline gotoluc

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SUBJECT: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficient motor using Fly-back

By 'more efficient' we mean: 'over-unity'; COP > 1
By 'using Fly-back' we mean: by using the energy received back from a primary coil after the initial source energizing said primary coil has been switched off.

Problems to overcome: how to best use the energy received back.

The terms:
Yes, understanding what is actually happening in a circuit can be difficult to understand. We can't see electricity. Our understanding comes from observable phenomena. This requires experimentation and deep thought. Many diagrams do not reflect what is actually happening. I myself try to visualize what is actually happening at any given moment on an atomic level with any given section of a circuit, including the connecting wires. So, for example, I don't really like the words 'current' or 'flow'. these words imply that something is flowing through the wire. I don't believe that assumption to be correct, because the wires are solid. To best explain what is observed I believe there is simply 'voltage pressure' which causes a phase change away from normal in every single atom of a conductor that is in-between a potential difference. Apply voltage pressure one way and the atoms push back (resist). The resistance is exposed as a polarized field around the conductor,  Shut off the voltage quickly and the atoms snap back to neutral phase quickly, perhaps even 'ringing' a little like a stiff spring. The greater the voltage the grater the atom goes out-of-phase, until you apply enough voltage to blow the atom itself off.

Very good ;)

My other observations:
Luc's microwave core is more efficient. Why? because the copper windings don't just have an iron core passing through the middle of it, but the windings actually have soft iron material all the way around it creating a magnetic loop when the cover plate is placed on top. So the core surface area (the area against the core windings) is very important in the design of the electromagnet to achieve greater power from the available area.

Excellent!... glad someone has their thinking cap on.

To capitalize on this effect, surface area is King.
The next thing I would recommend is a device that needs a long flux holding time. This is why I recommend a PM flux switch.
I have already designed and built it. I'll call it the GTL (short for "go to luc") Gate. The GTL Gate uses the same design principle of my mostly magnet motor, where both inner and outer fields of the coil is used which gives you double the magnetic field and obviously double the core surface area.

I will be sharing it soon but I was holding off till TinMan shares his results.

If you don't understand you will after I demonstrate it.

Thanks for everyone's participation

Luc

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Offline MileHigh

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Gyula:

Yes I apologize for not acknowledging that you made reference to the efficiency issue because of the resistance of the coil.  I actually did read your comments and I did remember them.  That was just an unconscious "filter" in my mind acting because I take it for granted that you really know your stuff - hence I filtered out your contribution to the discussion.

All:

Congratulations to Laurent for attempting some power calculations.  If he shows his measurements and calculations then we can then discuss it more.  You all have to realize that spoon feeding you information is not the way to learn.  Nor am I an expert at this stuff, but I am not afraid of being corrected if I am wrong.  You can't ignore major issues about a circuit because you are unsure about what to do.  Trying something is better than doing nothing.  Share your ideas and see what comes of it.   All of you must be interested in knowing what the resistive losses in the two coils are compared to the energy that you put into the coils.  You have to be interested in this - "ideas on how to make a more efficient motor."  Yet the silence from many of you guys about this and other issues is sometimes deafening.

Going back to my "zero sum gain" discussion, I realize that the only way to get lower resistance and accompanying lower power dissipation in a coil for the same amount of magnetic field strength is to increase the gauge of the wire.  So multiple taps on the same coil when you want the same strength of magnetic field will all burn off approximately the same amount of power.  I will just repeat myself that lower resistance in the high-voltage coil "risks" the onset of LC resonance which presumably will not have a positive effect on the operation of the pulse motor.

Minoly correctly uses quotations when he says "high voltage coil."  It's very poor terminology.  There is no such thing as a "high voltage coil."  Any coil can generate high voltage or be driven by high voltage, hence the use of that term as well as "low voltage coil" does not really make sense.  From now on I will use the terms "drive coil" or "low inductance coil" and "secondary coil" or "high inductance coil" to refer to the two coils.

Nilrehob's comments about the mechanical analogies for circuit components are excellent and I am a big fan of that.  For inductors, I like the heavy spinning flywheel on a ball bearing analogy, but his moving mass analogy is equally valid.  I asked and got no answer about what happens when the drive coil outputs the current pulse into the secondary coil and there is no capacitor present.  Many of you guys are too shy and you only feel safe doing the same old tests and discussing the same old things that you have done many times before.  Time to break out of the box.  How would you frame the question and then answer the question if you substitute the drive coil and secondary coil for a pair of flywheels?  Do that correctly and the answer comes very easily.

Offline MileHigh

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SUBJECT: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficient motor using Fly-back

By 'more efficient' we mean: 'over-unity'; COP > 1
By 'using Fly-back' we mean: by using the energy received back from a primary coil after the initial source energizing said primary coil has been switched off.

Nope, by "more efficient" we mean trying to put as much of the supply power as possible into making the rotor spin.  What goes hand-in-hand with that is we want to reduce the resistive losses as much as possible within reason.

Your analogies are somewhat bizarre and don't really make sense to me.  You talk about a "phase change" and a "polarized field" without defining them.  This is an exercise in basic electronics - a basic pulse circuit.  A much more applicable analogy to the circuit would be moving masses or spinning flywheels, mechanical springs, and calipers with brake pads.  It's more mundane sounding but much more real.

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Offline gotoluc

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Minoly correctly uses quotations when he says "high voltage coil."  It's very poor terminology.  There is no such thing as a "high voltage coil."  Any coil can generate high voltage or be driven by high voltage, hence the use of that term as well as "low voltage coil" does not really make sense.  From now on I will use the terms "drive coil" or "low inductance coil" and "secondary coil" or "high inductance coil" to refer to the two coils.

Nilrehob's comments about the mechanical analogies for circuit components are excellent and I am a big fan of that.  For inductors, I like the heavy spinning flywheel on a ball bearing analogy, but his moving mass analogy is equally valid.  I asked and got no answer about what happens when the drive coil outputs the current pulse into the secondary coil and there is no capacitor present.  Many of you guys are too shy and you only feel safe doing the same old tests and discussing the same old things that you have done many times before.  Time to break out of the box.  How would you frame the question and then answer the question if you substitute the drive coil and secondary coil for a pair of flywheels?  Do that correctly and the answer comes very easily.

MH

I'm going to ask you to be more tolerant when it comes to using the correct schooled engineering terminology. Nilrehob's is obviously an engineer, so that's why what he says or writes works for you (same school)
However, the reality on free energy sites like this one is, most experimenters are not school trained, as they are looking for something that is not taught in schools.

So don't nitpick on details like you did in your post, as you know quite well what he means.

I'll share my thoughts on Nilrehob's work... I can't understand most of what he is sharing as I have no school training. I never even finished high school. I quite on my 16th birthday as it was hell for 10 years. But that doesn't make me less then others who have schooling, it actually allows me to be creative and not just stick to what I was taught.

So be more tolerant and don't criticize as you were never taught what we are looking for, have you?

Kind regards

Luc
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:53:33 PM by gotoluc »

Offline minoly

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Luc,
I don't understand why you keep deleting my posts. I'm trying to understand more clearly exactly what you are doing. You even go on to answer my question yet you still delete my post???




MH

I'm going to ask you to be more tolerant when it comes to using the correct schooled engineering terminology. Nilrehob's is obviously an engineer, so that why what he says or writes works for you (same school)
However, the reality on free energy sites like this one is, most experimenters are not schooled trained as they are looking for something that is not taught in schools.

So don't nitpick on details like you did in your post, as you know quite well what he means.

I'll share my thoughts on Nilrehob's work... I can't understand most of what he is sharing as I have no school training. I never even finished high school. I quite on my 16th birthday as it was hell for 10 years. But that doesn't make me less then others who have schooling, it actually allows me to be creative and not just stick to what I was taught.

So be more tolerant and don't criticize as you were never taught what we are looking for, have you?

Kind regards

Luc

Offline gyulasun

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Hi Laurent,

Thanks for showing the waveforms across the 4 different placement of the 1 Ohm (current shunt) resistor around the flyback circuit.   In the meantime I figured that we could arrive at energy calculations in a relatively easy way, see below, albeit this would involve one more measurement from you... 

I think if we wish to estimate the energy in the secondary (assistant) coil, then you could use a 10 Ohm non-inductive resistor instead of the 1 Ohm and repeat step 4 to learn about the current in the secondary coil. I suggest this because then we could calculate the energy in the coil by the (1.8*I*I)/2 and we can also calculate the (heat) loss in the 210 Ohm coil resistance. I suggest the 10 Ohm because it is still negligible with respect to the 210 Ohm and the scoped waveform will be 10 times bigger, this helps evaluating the coil current better than with the 1 Ohm. Try to make sure the scope should display the average or at least the rms value of the coil current waveform, this would make it easier to get the loss.

I think you used the 0.3 uF capacitor for the scope waveforms, right? This involved a cca 130 V flyback pulse across the drive coil if I recall correctly, is this correct?  If yes, then we know that the peak voltage across the 0.3 uF capacitor must have been also about 130 V (let's neglect the 0.7 V forward voltage drop of the flyback diode). If this is correct, then the energy stored in this capacitor in the moment of the full peak voltage across it is Ec=(C*V*V)/2.
So it is (0.0000003*130*130)/2= 0.00253 Joule or 2.53 mJ. This energy will be going into the secondary coil.  This energy could be used as a cross-checking for the energy in the secondary coil received from the 10 Ohm current shunt measurement.

Now to estimate the input power if you wish to know about it, then probably the input DC current times the input DC voltage should give a good approximation, read from your power supply meters. Perhaps the use of an electrolytic filter capacitor right across the voltage input of the circuit, (say at least a 220 or 470 uF or higher) would help reduce the current meter fluctuations. The capacitor's positive leg would directly connect to the reed switch positive end and the negative leg of the capacitor would go to the negative end of the drive coil via the shortest connecting wire. You could also build the RC filter circuit for the input as Luc uses such with the two electrolytic caps with a 0.1 Ohm resistor in beween. Of course, a some mH choke coil with low DC resistance would also be good here instead of the R member of the filter and the current meter of the power supply would "calm down".  8) But possibly the single parallel capacitor will hopefully suffice.

Thanks,  Gyula

PS  MileHigh: okay, thanks.

Offline Magluvin

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Nilrehob's comments about the mechanical analogies for circuit components are excellent and I am a big fan of that.  For inductors, I like the heavy spinning flywheel on a ball bearing analogy, but his moving mass analogy is equally valid.  I asked and got no answer about what happens when the drive coil outputs the current pulse into the secondary coil and there is no capacitor present.  Many of you guys are too shy and you only feel safe doing the same old tests and discussing the same old things that you have done many times before.  Time to break out of the box.  How would you frame the question and then answer the question if you substitute the drive coil and secondary coil for a pair of flywheels?  Do that correctly and the answer comes very easily.

I believe I posted what happens if the cap were not there one page back.

http://overunity.com/16167/sharing-ideas-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg466132/#msg466132

"I had looked through my vids to see if i had one, but dont....  I remember trying to get a bemf spike into a higher henry coil and the higher H coil seemed to block most of the spike rather than take advantage of the full potential. Like a subwoofer crossover coil, it blocks out the high frequencies.  So the capacitor across your higher inductance coil probably loads up first then delivers it charge to the parallel coil?

Mags"

Mags

 

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