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Author Topic: magnetic perpetual motion  (Read 46030 times)

mastersus

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magnetic perpetual motion
« on: April 30, 2012, 10:42:55 PM »
Hi all from this newbie,

Please allow me to tell you all a story of something that I saw with my own eyes.

this was back in the seventies in my homeland Scotland, I was a new salesman in stationary and office supplies and keen as mustered to make my mark. Working in the new town of Glenrothes, Fife, I happened upon a man working in his work yard, welding together mini skips, with the attitude nothing ventured nothing gained I approached him with my best introductory smile and catalog in hand. At this point I didn't expect much, just to leave my card and catalog would be welcome. Anyway he asked if I had anything in the catalog that would allow him to visually display his process at a university presentation he was giving in six weeks time. Jumping at the chance to show my prowess and ascertaining his exact needs, I was ushered inside the adjacent workshop.
This is where the story begins:-

He produced a small piece of wood approx 2"x4"x1/2"with two wood up-rites about 3" apart, both with simple V notches cut into their tops, effectively forming a cradle. There were two blocks of metal fixed at each side of one of these blocks, which tuned out to be magnets. So a base of wood, two wooden up-rites with v notches cut into there tops and two magnet  attached the base , one each side of one (only) of the uprights. having handed it to me for inspection he then handed me the next piece of the puzzle,
Turned out this was an armature of sorts consisting of a long needle passed through a short length of 1/4" wooden dowel, on this was glued several triangular segments around one end of the dowel, turns out they weren't exactly triangular but tapered toward the dowel at one end of each segment. I was then given a small bar magnet (broken in the middle) which he asked if I could put together, this I did, after some thought I may add. Of course the broken ends could not come together as the ends repelled each other, he did this to see if had the knowledge of how magnetism worked. Having passed the test, he then asked me to place the rotor into the cradle, then with only my finger give it a gentle spin, that's when I witness something that nothing I could not explain. The rotor built up speed rapidly until it literally jumped/burst out of the cradle. He explained that the tapered  magnet segments, glued to the dowel, were attracted to the two stationary magnets, fixed to the base, by the leading faces of the direction of rotation, and that the opposite end  repulsion that should effectively have stopped the rotor, was weakened by it's tapered end section, hey ~ presto, perpetual motion, only he needed the university brains to design a centrifugal brake that would work intuitively to slow the spin action according to load/torque.
I might not have believed this, had I not both seen and set up the apparatus myself.

The man in question, had quite literally disappeared when I went back to inquire as to his success or otherwise. Workshop closed and empty, non of the surrounding companies saw the emptying and non knew how he could be contacted, mysterious!

...mastersus 

TheOne

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 01:38:47 AM »
Hi all from this newbie,

Please allow me to tell you all a story of something that I saw with my own eyes.

this was back in the seventies in my homeland Scotland, I was a new salesman in stationary and office supplies and keen as mustered to make my mark. Working in the new town of Glenrothes, Fife, I happened upon a man working in his work yard, welding together mini skips, with the attitude nothing ventured nothing gained I approached him with my best introductory smile and catalog in hand. At this point I didn't expect much, just to leave my card and catalog would be welcome. Anyway he asked if I had anything in the catalog that would allow him to visually display his process at a university presentation he was giving in six weeks time. Jumping at the chance to show my prowess and ascertaining his exact needs, I was ushered inside the adjacent workshop.
This is where the story begins:-

He produced a small piece of wood approx 2"x4"x1/2"with two wood up-rites about 3" apart, both with simple V notches cut into their tops, effectively forming a cradle. There were two blocks of metal fixed at each side of one of these blocks, which tuned out to be magnets. So a base of wood, two wooden up-rites with v notches cut into there tops and two magnet  attached the base , one each side of one (only) of the uprights. having handed it to me for inspection he then handed me the next piece of the puzzle,
Turned out this was an armature of sorts consisting of a long needle passed through a short length of 1/4" wooden dowel, on this was glued several triangular segments around one end of the dowel, turns out they weren't exactly triangular but tapered toward the dowel at one end of each segment. I was then given a small bar magnet (broken in the middle) which he asked if I could put together, this I did, after some thought I may add. Of course the broken ends could not come together as the ends repelled each other, he did this to see if had the knowledge of how magnetism worked. Having passed the test, he then asked me to place the rotor into the cradle, then with only my finger give it a gentle spin, that's when I witness something that nothing I could not explain. The rotor built up speed rapidly until it literally jumped/burst out of the cradle. He explained that the tapered  magnet segments, glued to the dowel, were attracted to the two stationary magnets, fixed to the base, by the leading faces of the direction of rotation, and that the opposite end  repulsion that should effectively have stopped the rotor, was weakened by it's tapered end section, hey ~ presto, perpetual motion, only he needed the university brains to design a centrifugal brake that would work intuitively to slow the spin action according to load/torque.
I might not have believed this, had I not both seen and set up the apparatus myself.

The man in question, had quite literally disappeared when I went back to inquire as to his success or otherwise. Workshop closed and empty, non of the surrounding companies saw the emptying and non knew how he could be contacted, mysterious!

...mastersus


Great story, I am trying to visualize the device but I cannot :), can you draw something that look like the device you saw?


e2matrix

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 06:16:14 AM »
Great story and I agree with TheOne it would be nice to see a drawing of it.  I was able to visualize nearly all of your description though as it was quite clear but things got a little hazy with the shape of the magnets on the dowel and a couple other little things.  If he had a scheduled appointment at a university that could well have drawn attention of the sorts that caused his disappearance.   How much later did you check back on him?  Maybe he got paid off big and moved to a better place. 

   One thing that this story brought to mind I find intriguing is the idea of a triangular shaped magnet.   That is something I have never seen but in thinking about it I can see some interesting possibilities.   Assuming that you could magnetize one tip of the triangle to North and the other two to South it would seem the imbalance in geometry might be an interesting advantage as your customer may have found.   

e2matrix

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 06:40:46 AM »
I'm seeing something along this line?  - just a rough drawing from the side view.   I would imagine an odd number of triangular shaped magnets attached around the dowel and any slight deviation from symmetry along with a careful location might cause a spin.  I'm just guessing on this and I'm far from a magnetic field expert but I can sort of see it if our old enemy stiction doesn't get too heavy handed. 

Hope

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 07:02:52 AM »
Please make a hand drawing or a CAD drawing or anything representative of what you saw.     This sound interesting.   Please do not hesitate for others with hard souls will try in stop a working principle being shown.   Thank you


Richard Williams




neptune

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »
Sadly, the older we get, the more cynical we become. If there is one thing I love, it is a good story. Once upon a time, in a place far away, and a long time ago....
 So you have known about this since the seventies. Did you try to make one?


If you break a bar magnet in half, when you try to reassemble it, the broken ends do not repel, they attract.


Did you carefully examine the bottom of the vee notches, and did you look for the tiny exposed wires there, that fed current into the armature from the AAA batteries hidden in the base?


Since this man had the answer to the world`s problems, how much time did you spend trying to track him down after he "disappeared"?


The kindest interpretation I can put on this is that you were a victim of a good conjuring trick. As always I would love to be proved wrong.


Thanks for entertaining us for a few minutes on a dull, rainy day.

truesearch

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 05:38:05 PM »
@mastersus

I'd like to join the others who have asked that you provide a drawing of what you remember of this device. It sounds too good to be true but maybe there is something to it  . . . .

truesearch

e2matrix

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 06:22:10 PM »
Sadly, the older we get, the more cynical we become. If there is one thing I love, it is a good story. Once upon a time, in a place far away, and a long time ago....
 So you have known about this since the seventies. Did you try to make one?


If you break a bar magnet in half, when you try to reassemble it, the broken ends do not repel, they attract.


Did you carefully examine the bottom of the vee notches, and did you look for the tiny exposed wires there, that fed current into the armature from the AAA batteries hidden in the base?


Since this man had the answer to the world`s problems, how much time did you spend trying to track him down after he "disappeared"?


The kindest interpretation I can put on this is that you were a victim of a good conjuring trick. As always I would love to be proved wrong.


Thanks for entertaining us for a few minutes on a dull, rainy day.

It actually crossed my mind that the guy just hated salesmen and wanted to leave him with a mind bender puzzle that would haunt him for a long while.  LOL ...   But I prefer to stay open to any new possibilities until proven otherwise.   I did question the part about the bar magnet but just figured that was lost in 40 years of memories.  I actually had plans one time that involved a triangular layout of magnets that claimed it would cause some other magnets in the middle of the triangle to spin with no other input.  It was a completely different setup and the only commonality was the triangle which is  a very unique geometric shape with properties like no others - I like to call it the antithesis of a circle ;) 

mastersus

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 11:08:39 PM »
Hi all,

 Hopefully I've managed to attach my sketch, which I constructed in Sketch Up. By no means is it accurate, but it will help to show what I meant.

The reason I posted the subject in the first place was to see if any forum member understood the principals behind it and possibly follow it up. I myself, unfortunately am not in a position to do this, but if anyone else wants to pursue it I would be more than happy to relate any information I can.

Neptune...as both a Patternmaker and thoroughly skeptic individual,  I inspected  the device for just such a thing and can assure you what I witnessed was genuine. As to breaking a magnet...

...If a bar magnet is cut in half what happens?

In: Magnetism    [Edit categories]

 
Answer:
 
Improve
according to laws of magnetism
1) law states that each magnet consists of two poles namely north(N) and south(S)
2) law states that like poles repel each other and unlike attract each other3) law states that when a bar magnet is cut into two, two magnets are attained


but
suppose we have bar magnet
1st side is north and 2nd side is south
when the bar magnet is cut into two
according to the law two magnets should be obtained
but when you do this
as 1st side was north so according to law the opposite side to this should be south
and 2nd side of the bar magnet was south so the opposite side should be north
and when u try to join the two magnets again into same shape as they were the won't
but why ?
they repel each other
correct
according to 2nd law only and only like pole repel each other
so the end points from where had cut the magnet they are either are N=N
or S=S
then according to 1st law a magnet consists on only two and unlike poles in a single magnet
so
this makes this laws contradictory proving that they are all wrong
++++++++++++++++++++
the centre of the magnet is at the neutral zone of the magnet. theoretically, there is no polarity at the centre. but, when at the centre it is borken/bisected each of the broken ends will assume polarity opposite to the that at the rear end. it means, one of the broken ends will have ''N'' and another one will have ''S''.
so each of both pieces of the magnet will become a complete magnet . this is according to the 'Molecular theory of Magnetism''. so the broken ends will attract each other ( not REPEL as commented above ) because unlike poles attract.

so, nothing contradictory is seen. one can better understand if Molecular theory of magnetism ' is read out in its simpler version.



How much time did I spend trying to track him down?...only what I've already stated. Why would I? as a young budding salesman  selling was my only goal.

One thing I will say to all skeptic/doubters...don't close your minds to something you simply can't grasp, Albert Einstein was once regarded as a crank by doubters...look how wrong they were!  :)

Quote
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
Albert Einstein

 

   

truesearch

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 11:56:22 PM »
@mastersus

Would it have been something like this for magnetic polarity perhaps?

truesearch

DreamThinkBuild

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 12:33:29 AM »
Hi Mastersus,

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing this design.

The two magnets mounted on the base, is one pulling the curved side down while the other side is pushing up on the flat side? Looks almost like a magnetic ratchet.

TinselKoala

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 03:05:09 AM »
Yes, it's a good story. The plotline, in fact, has been used many times and has even been on television, like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, and dozens of others. Even down to the detail of the abandoned premises that nobody noticed being cleaned out.

Of course I believe you that it happened just as you describe. The best real life is taken from the ideas of playwrights, after all. Or is it the other way around? Either way, it's interesting.

What happened to the other magnet, though.. the broken one, the pieces that you handled? Where exactly were they, when you were watching the rotor gain speed?

e2matrix

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 06:07:59 AM »
mastersus,  Thanks for taking the time to draw the diagrams as I was obviously a long way off.  Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words.    Regarding the broken magnet I am a bit confused but I don't think it is that important with regards to the spinning magnets but I have to wonder if the broken bar magnet he gave you may have been magnetized diametrically - that is the front face North and the back side South rather than ends being N and S.  That might explain why it wouldn't go together as one would expect. 

   From your drawings it almost looks like the magnets were semicircles or half of a round magnet.  Would you say that is likely more so than triangular?   Also looking at your diagram do you recall if it would be rotating clockwise or counter clockwise? 

e2matrix

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 06:16:58 AM »
I'm going to also take a guess that the magnet mounted on the base on one side is North side up and on the other side (not shown in mastersus diagram) is probably South side up.   
edit: actually I think DreamThinkBuild said basically the same thing in his question.  The fact that DTF is here looking at this gives me confidence there may be something to it  ;)

mastersus

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Re: magnetic perpetual motion
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »
Hi Mastersus,

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing this design.

The two magnets mounted on the base, is one pulling the curved side down while the other side is pushing up on the flat side? Looks almost like a magnetic ratchet.

Hi DTB,

The sketch was not posted as a design per say, but as means of explaining my earlier post in part as it were.

The basic working premise for the model was the number of magnets employed and their precise shape. Whilst the thick edge attracted (let's assume they were North), as magnets naturally do as long as they are opposite poles, whilst the opposite ends  repulsed, but that effect lessened as it's square surface was reduced, if you see what I mean.
I seem to remember that I rotated the rotor clockwise, but whether I have depicted the configuration of the rotor correctly I'm not sure.

When subscribing to this forum I expected constructive criticism if nothing else, skepticism, but not such downright negativism as has been shown so far. I know now how Issac Newton, Galileo and other profound thinkers must have felt, please gentlemen, if you have nothing good or accurate to say, better to say nothing at all...masetrus