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local alternative energy Groups => local alternative energy groups in Europe => Topic started by: mastersus on April 30, 2012, 10:42:55 PM
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Hi all from this newbie,
Please allow me to tell you all a story of something that I saw with my own eyes.
this was back in the seventies in my homeland Scotland, I was a new salesman in stationary and office supplies and keen as mustered to make my mark. Working in the new town of Glenrothes, Fife, I happened upon a man working in his work yard, welding together mini skips, with the attitude nothing ventured nothing gained I approached him with my best introductory smile and catalog in hand. At this point I didn't expect much, just to leave my card and catalog would be welcome. Anyway he asked if I had anything in the catalog that would allow him to visually display his process at a university presentation he was giving in six weeks time. Jumping at the chance to show my prowess and ascertaining his exact needs, I was ushered inside the adjacent workshop.
This is where the story begins:-
He produced a small piece of wood approx 2"x4"x1/2"with two wood up-rites about 3" apart, both with simple V notches cut into their tops, effectively forming a cradle. There were two blocks of metal fixed at each side of one of these blocks, which tuned out to be magnets. So a base of wood, two wooden up-rites with v notches cut into there tops and two magnet attached the base , one each side of one (only) of the uprights. having handed it to me for inspection he then handed me the next piece of the puzzle,
Turned out this was an armature of sorts consisting of a long needle passed through a short length of 1/4" wooden dowel, on this was glued several triangular segments around one end of the dowel, turns out they weren't exactly triangular but tapered toward the dowel at one end of each segment. I was then given a small bar magnet (broken in the middle) which he asked if I could put together, this I did, after some thought I may add. Of course the broken ends could not come together as the ends repelled each other, he did this to see if had the knowledge of how magnetism worked. Having passed the test, he then asked me to place the rotor into the cradle, then with only my finger give it a gentle spin, that's when I witness something that nothing I could not explain. The rotor built up speed rapidly until it literally jumped/burst out of the cradle. He explained that the tapered magnet segments, glued to the dowel, were attracted to the two stationary magnets, fixed to the base, by the leading faces of the direction of rotation, and that the opposite end repulsion that should effectively have stopped the rotor, was weakened by it's tapered end section, hey ~ presto, perpetual motion, only he needed the university brains to design a centrifugal brake that would work intuitively to slow the spin action according to load/torque.
I might not have believed this, had I not both seen and set up the apparatus myself.
The man in question, had quite literally disappeared when I went back to inquire as to his success or otherwise. Workshop closed and empty, non of the surrounding companies saw the emptying and non knew how he could be contacted, mysterious!
...mastersus
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Hi all from this newbie,
Please allow me to tell you all a story of something that I saw with my own eyes.
this was back in the seventies in my homeland Scotland, I was a new salesman in stationary and office supplies and keen as mustered to make my mark. Working in the new town of Glenrothes, Fife, I happened upon a man working in his work yard, welding together mini skips, with the attitude nothing ventured nothing gained I approached him with my best introductory smile and catalog in hand. At this point I didn't expect much, just to leave my card and catalog would be welcome. Anyway he asked if I had anything in the catalog that would allow him to visually display his process at a university presentation he was giving in six weeks time. Jumping at the chance to show my prowess and ascertaining his exact needs, I was ushered inside the adjacent workshop.
This is where the story begins:-
He produced a small piece of wood approx 2"x4"x1/2"with two wood up-rites about 3" apart, both with simple V notches cut into their tops, effectively forming a cradle. There were two blocks of metal fixed at each side of one of these blocks, which tuned out to be magnets. So a base of wood, two wooden up-rites with v notches cut into there tops and two magnet attached the base , one each side of one (only) of the uprights. having handed it to me for inspection he then handed me the next piece of the puzzle,
Turned out this was an armature of sorts consisting of a long needle passed through a short length of 1/4" wooden dowel, on this was glued several triangular segments around one end of the dowel, turns out they weren't exactly triangular but tapered toward the dowel at one end of each segment. I was then given a small bar magnet (broken in the middle) which he asked if I could put together, this I did, after some thought I may add. Of course the broken ends could not come together as the ends repelled each other, he did this to see if had the knowledge of how magnetism worked. Having passed the test, he then asked me to place the rotor into the cradle, then with only my finger give it a gentle spin, that's when I witness something that nothing I could not explain. The rotor built up speed rapidly until it literally jumped/burst out of the cradle. He explained that the tapered magnet segments, glued to the dowel, were attracted to the two stationary magnets, fixed to the base, by the leading faces of the direction of rotation, and that the opposite end repulsion that should effectively have stopped the rotor, was weakened by it's tapered end section, hey ~ presto, perpetual motion, only he needed the university brains to design a centrifugal brake that would work intuitively to slow the spin action according to load/torque.
I might not have believed this, had I not both seen and set up the apparatus myself.
The man in question, had quite literally disappeared when I went back to inquire as to his success or otherwise. Workshop closed and empty, non of the surrounding companies saw the emptying and non knew how he could be contacted, mysterious!
...mastersus
Great story, I am trying to visualize the device but I cannot :), can you draw something that look like the device you saw?
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Great story and I agree with TheOne it would be nice to see a drawing of it. I was able to visualize nearly all of your description though as it was quite clear but things got a little hazy with the shape of the magnets on the dowel and a couple other little things. If he had a scheduled appointment at a university that could well have drawn attention of the sorts that caused his disappearance. How much later did you check back on him? Maybe he got paid off big and moved to a better place.
One thing that this story brought to mind I find intriguing is the idea of a triangular shaped magnet. That is something I have never seen but in thinking about it I can see some interesting possibilities. Assuming that you could magnetize one tip of the triangle to North and the other two to South it would seem the imbalance in geometry might be an interesting advantage as your customer may have found.
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I'm seeing something along this line? - just a rough drawing from the side view. I would imagine an odd number of triangular shaped magnets attached around the dowel and any slight deviation from symmetry along with a careful location might cause a spin. I'm just guessing on this and I'm far from a magnetic field expert but I can sort of see it if our old enemy stiction doesn't get too heavy handed.
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Please make a hand drawing or a CAD drawing or anything representative of what you saw. This sound interesting. Please do not hesitate for others with hard souls will try in stop a working principle being shown. Thank you
Richard Williams
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Sadly, the older we get, the more cynical we become. If there is one thing I love, it is a good story. Once upon a time, in a place far away, and a long time ago....
So you have known about this since the seventies. Did you try to make one?
If you break a bar magnet in half, when you try to reassemble it, the broken ends do not repel, they attract.
Did you carefully examine the bottom of the vee notches, and did you look for the tiny exposed wires there, that fed current into the armature from the AAA batteries hidden in the base?
Since this man had the answer to the world`s problems, how much time did you spend trying to track him down after he "disappeared"?
The kindest interpretation I can put on this is that you were a victim of a good conjuring trick. As always I would love to be proved wrong.
Thanks for entertaining us for a few minutes on a dull, rainy day.
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@mastersus
I'd like to join the others who have asked that you provide a drawing of what you remember of this device. It sounds too good to be true but maybe there is something to it . . . .
truesearch
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Sadly, the older we get, the more cynical we become. If there is one thing I love, it is a good story. Once upon a time, in a place far away, and a long time ago....
So you have known about this since the seventies. Did you try to make one?
If you break a bar magnet in half, when you try to reassemble it, the broken ends do not repel, they attract.
Did you carefully examine the bottom of the vee notches, and did you look for the tiny exposed wires there, that fed current into the armature from the AAA batteries hidden in the base?
Since this man had the answer to the world`s problems, how much time did you spend trying to track him down after he "disappeared"?
The kindest interpretation I can put on this is that you were a victim of a good conjuring trick. As always I would love to be proved wrong.
Thanks for entertaining us for a few minutes on a dull, rainy day.
It actually crossed my mind that the guy just hated salesmen and wanted to leave him with a mind bender puzzle that would haunt him for a long while. LOL ... But I prefer to stay open to any new possibilities until proven otherwise. I did question the part about the bar magnet but just figured that was lost in 40 years of memories. I actually had plans one time that involved a triangular layout of magnets that claimed it would cause some other magnets in the middle of the triangle to spin with no other input. It was a completely different setup and the only commonality was the triangle which is a very unique geometric shape with properties like no others - I like to call it the antithesis of a circle ;)
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Hi all,
Hopefully I've managed to attach my sketch, which I constructed in Sketch Up. By no means is it accurate, but it will help to show what I meant.
The reason I posted the subject in the first place was to see if any forum member understood the principals behind it and possibly follow it up. I myself, unfortunately am not in a position to do this, but if anyone else wants to pursue it I would be more than happy to relate any information I can.
Neptune...as both a Patternmaker and thoroughly skeptic individual, I inspected the device for just such a thing and can assure you what I witnessed was genuine. As to breaking a magnet...
...If a bar magnet is cut in half what happens?
In: Magnetism [Edit categories]
Answer:
Improve
according to laws of magnetism
1) law states that each magnet consists of two poles namely north(N) and south(S)
2) law states that like poles repel each other and unlike attract each other3) law states that when a bar magnet is cut into two, two magnets are attained
but
suppose we have bar magnet
1st side is north and 2nd side is south
when the bar magnet is cut into two
according to the law two magnets should be obtained
but when you do this
as 1st side was north so according to law the opposite side to this should be south
and 2nd side of the bar magnet was south so the opposite side should be north
and when u try to join the two magnets again into same shape as they were the won't
but why ?
they repel each other
correct
according to 2nd law only and only like pole repel each other
so the end points from where had cut the magnet they are either are N=N
or S=S
then according to 1st law a magnet consists on only two and unlike poles in a single magnet
so
this makes this laws contradictory proving that they are all wrong
++++++++++++++++++++
the centre of the magnet is at the neutral zone of the magnet. theoretically, there is no polarity at the centre. but, when at the centre it is borken/bisected each of the broken ends will assume polarity opposite to the that at the rear end. it means, one of the broken ends will have ''N'' and another one will have ''S''.
so each of both pieces of the magnet will become a complete magnet . this is according to the 'Molecular theory of Magnetism''. so the broken ends will attract each other ( not REPEL as commented above ) because unlike poles attract.
so, nothing contradictory is seen. one can better understand if Molecular theory of magnetism ' is read out in its simpler version.
How much time did I spend trying to track him down?...only what I've already stated. Why would I? as a young budding salesman selling was my only goal.
One thing I will say to all skeptic/doubters...don't close your minds to something you simply can't grasp, Albert Einstein was once regarded as a crank by doubters...look how wrong they were! :)
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
Albert Einstein
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@mastersus
Would it have been something like this for magnetic polarity perhaps?
truesearch
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Hi Mastersus,
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing this design.
The two magnets mounted on the base, is one pulling the curved side down while the other side is pushing up on the flat side? Looks almost like a magnetic ratchet.
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Yes, it's a good story. The plotline, in fact, has been used many times and has even been on television, like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, and dozens of others. Even down to the detail of the abandoned premises that nobody noticed being cleaned out.
Of course I believe you that it happened just as you describe. The best real life is taken from the ideas of playwrights, after all. Or is it the other way around? Either way, it's interesting.
What happened to the other magnet, though.. the broken one, the pieces that you handled? Where exactly were they, when you were watching the rotor gain speed?
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mastersus, Thanks for taking the time to draw the diagrams as I was obviously a long way off. Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Regarding the broken magnet I am a bit confused but I don't think it is that important with regards to the spinning magnets but I have to wonder if the broken bar magnet he gave you may have been magnetized diametrically - that is the front face North and the back side South rather than ends being N and S. That might explain why it wouldn't go together as one would expect.
From your drawings it almost looks like the magnets were semicircles or half of a round magnet. Would you say that is likely more so than triangular? Also looking at your diagram do you recall if it would be rotating clockwise or counter clockwise?
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I'm going to also take a guess that the magnet mounted on the base on one side is North side up and on the other side (not shown in mastersus diagram) is probably South side up.
edit: actually I think DreamThinkBuild said basically the same thing in his question. The fact that DTF is here looking at this gives me confidence there may be something to it ;)
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Hi Mastersus,
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing this design.
The two magnets mounted on the base, is one pulling the curved side down while the other side is pushing up on the flat side? Looks almost like a magnetic ratchet.
Hi DTB,
The sketch was not posted as a design per say, but as means of explaining my earlier post in part as it were.
The basic working premise for the model was the number of magnets employed and their precise shape. Whilst the thick edge attracted (let's assume they were North), as magnets naturally do as long as they are opposite poles, whilst the opposite ends repulsed, but that effect lessened as it's square surface was reduced, if you see what I mean.
I seem to remember that I rotated the rotor clockwise, but whether I have depicted the configuration of the rotor correctly I'm not sure.
When subscribing to this forum I expected constructive criticism if nothing else, skepticism, but not such downright negativism as has been shown so far. I know now how Issac Newton, Galileo and other profound thinkers must have felt, please gentlemen, if you have nothing good or accurate to say, better to say nothing at all...masetrus
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@Mastersus. Yes I can see what you mean about repulsion and the broken magnet. Either you did not explain it in enough detail, or I failed to understand. As an ex conjuror, I am always aware of people being fooled. Until and unless someone replicates this, it just remains an urban myth to those of us who were not there. Notice that I did not call you a liar, as you are convinced it was real, and you were there. Scepticism is not always a negative thing. Sometimes we have to reach an open verdict due to a scarcity of evidence.
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Did I miss the answer to the question about where exactly the other magnets were, when you were watching the rotor accelerate?
Or did it get lost in the skeptic-bashing somewhere?
I mean... someone relates a story about seeing a simple device--- similar if not identical to hundreds that you can find on this very forum alone.... and a story that has been used in literature many times.....
and he won't even answer a simple polite question about where the other, broken, magnet pieces are, but has plenty of time to bash those who ask the questions.
OK... I see that as being completely par for the course. Carry on with your Minato motor discussion, but remember: he has the patent on the angled magnet arrangement.
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@Mastersus. Yes I can see what you mean about repulsion and the broken magnet. Either you did not explain it in enough detail, or I failed to understand. As an ex conjuror, I am always aware of people being fooled. Until and unless someone replicates this, it just remains an urban myth to those of us who were not there. Notice that I did not call you a liar, as you are convinced it was real, and you were there. Scepticism is not always a negative thing. Sometimes we have to reach an open verdict due to a scarcity of evidence.
Hi neptune...sorry if I puffed up a bit there.
The broken magnet played no part of the demo, was done on a wooden work bench, I surmised he handed it to me to see whether I understood some elementary magnetic principals i.e. the fact that a broken magnet can't be put together as the new poles created at the break repulse, not attract.
I have never thought healthy scepticism to be negative, outright denunciation is an other matter...so let's continue :)
...mastersus
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For all interested parties :) http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure18.htm
...mastersus
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mastersus, Thanks again for sharing info here. It may be good to realize there is rather little moderation on this forum. That leads to a lot of armchair judges which are often quick to rebuke new claims. Many here have seen hundreds if not thousands of claims of perpetual motion, overunity, self-running magnet generators and so on. Yet most would not still be here looking if they had the details to build such devices. The skepticism and even anger at new claims after seeing so many things proven bogus or incorrect measurements and so on is not uncommon nor unexpected. A few people though will try to honestly and with open mind assess whether it may be possible. Next usually comes whether it is economically a good plan to try building something and to do that you will get a lot more nitpicking on details. Try not to take it personally as people in their anonymity on the Internet can come off a bit callous after having spent so much time seeing things that do not work out.
There are a couple real magnetic field experts around here and if one of them happens on to this thread you may get an explanation of how or if this was possible. I've seen companies that claim to have magnet motor generators and although I believe some are real and have seen large investments in building such I still don't see any available to the general public so it's still a choice of belief as to whether this concept works.
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Hi Mastersus,
I would expect skepticism from any type of magnet motor. I've tried building many different setups all leading to failure. I have not seen this design before where one side is smaller towards the middle. The Minato wheel uses flat segments with equal fields on each end and is not curved.
The difficulty in testing this design is being able to fabricate the magnets. Do you know if they were standard block magnets rounded off?
Hi E2matrix,
They have triangular magnets (magnetized from base to point) but they are pricy. Would be interesting to know the difference of field strength between the point and base.
http://www.supermagnetman.net/product_info.php?products_id=426
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Hi Mastersus,
I would expect skepticism from any type of magnet motor. I've tried building many different setups all leading to failure. I have not seen this design before where one side is smaller towards the middle. The Minato wheel uses flat segments with equal fields on each end and is not curved.
The difficulty in testing this design is being able to fabricate the magnets. Do you know if they were standard block magnets rounded off?
Hi E2matrix,
They have triangular magnets (magnetized from base to point) but they are pricy. Would be interesting to know the difference of field strength between the point and base.
http://www.supermagnetman.net/product_info.php?products_id=426
I seem to remember the magnets on the rotor were parabolic curved, whether they started as standard blocks I couldn't say.
...matersus
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Hi DreamThinkBuild, Those are the exact same ones I looked at the other night LOL. Interesting design and I also wondered how the field would be around such a shape. Given the design mastersus has shown though it almost looks like they are half circles. Without more detailed specs I would hesitate to buy a bunch of triangle magnets for this project (at least on my budget) as it looks like it would be easy to spend a couple hundred if they are triangle magnets. Nearly all Neo magnets have gotten expensive the last couple years.
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Hi guys,
Magnet motors have been around for over one hundred years.
See attachment.
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Hi guys,
Magnet motors have been around for over one hundred years.
See attachment.
Indeed, also Nicholas Tesla developed processes that provided free energy and all his information is still available...so why are these not available today?---simple, there's no profit to be made, therefore it doesn't fit in with today's unending quest for growth.
Thought money is not a real physicality per say, it exists only because we say it does, that is the vast majority think it does. In reality money is human input (work hours/rates) either on it's own or coupled with natural resources to produce products, nothing else, money simply provides a vehicle for free flow of this. If we resigned money no person could gain more than their own input, their fair share, you could say. No one person could achieve grater station than his neighbor. If you take this final statement to it's conclusion Mankind - Homo Sapiens - could become a wealthier species in every way...food for thought!
New paradigms are needed. Albert Einstein showed us through E=Mc2 that the environment, conclusively the entire known Universe, is crammed with energy, it surrounds and invades every known think, I have already mentioned one above who proved this, but unless the mass of people embrace this paradigm nothing will change.
All who have joined this forum, for what ever reason, have the ability both to grasp this truth and start something new, this would provide hope.
Before anyone jumps on me for having the audacity to put this in writing, I ask that you look at the field of over unity, particularly freely available energy or net energy gains which exist, some being worked on as we speak, by companies such as Hitachi ---www.cheniere.org/misc/kawai.htm---you might also want to research - Gabriel Kron and the Negative Resistor.
For myself, I hold an MSc in sustainability gained at the University of Dundee, and during my studies came to the conclusion that gaining sustainability in all areas is quite simple, gaining it for profit/growth is unattainable.
...mastersus
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Hi guys,
I have attached another foreign patent translation. This one's from Japan - 1978.
Enjoy.
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Hi guys,
Magnet motors have been around for over one hundred years.
See attachment.
Hi seraphis,
Very interesting motor setup, using only permanent magnets and soft iron cores, I have not yet seen such arrangement with them in such combination. Thank you for the the very good translation from French if it was done by you.
Would like to ask if you are aware of any attempts to replicate this motor? Would be very good to see it working... 8)
I just noticed your second upload on the Japan magnet motor. If you happen to have some more translations on the H02K53 patent area from other foreign patents, that would be also good to read... but I know a lot of Chinese or Korean patents are just ideas, most of them can be seen at once as impossible setups. Surely there are some pearls like the French one, I like it because after reading it a few times I cannot say it would be impossible... ;)
Thanks, Gyula
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Hello Gyula,
If you are interested in doing patent searches then I suggest using the following classifications.
H02K53, H02N11, H02K57, F03G7. There are other class. but these are the main ones.
I have been searching and collecting copies of patents for many, many years and you are right to suggest that there are 'pearls' out there. Because there are many. And you are also correct in your assessment about Chinese and Korean patent applications as being overimaginative and unrealistic. However I do believe that the Korean mind is very creative and I will be posting some patent translations worthy of serious consideration. I will also be posting more from Japan, France, Russia and Germany. Some old(1879), some new(2012).
Thanks,
seraphis
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Hi seraphis,
Thanks for the classification info (some of them was known to me, years ago I also searched some of them in patent offices and since the web the online possibility is much convenient of course) and looking forward to reading some of your 'pearls'. 8)
My best shot so far has been this US patent application (and I strongly doubt a final patent will ever be granted) from a Japanese guy, Makoto Ogoshi, perhaps you have also come across him in one of his (Japanese or international) patents out of the several ones he has applied or been granted so far. So my "pearl" is this application: US2005140231, Power generator and torque amplifier, a simple link is here:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20050140231
[In the Example section of the application the inventor wrote the input power was 8 times 50W=400W (from eight 24V DC motors) and the output power was 2 kW AC...]
rgds, Gyula
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I see way too many flaws in this from the device to to the story. A guy who is clearly practical with both metal wood and magnets cant make a brake ??? One could easily hide the batteries and coil to drive this in the wood as we have all seen before but the switch took me a while to figure but 2 wires up through the uprights would work for this since the metal rod of the shaft now becomes the switch and stops it going flat while sitting on the shelf and if you really got clever and used rechargables these could be used to recharge it as well. This seems to me to be the only way to explain why it doesnt have something simple to hold the rotor in place. Its cute that broken magnets only go back together 180 degrees to their original situation but nothing in those 2 parts has actaully changed they are still north and south at the same ends as they were before.
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Hi seraphis,
Thanks for the classification info (some of them was known to me, years ago I also searched some of them in patent offices and since the web the online possibility is much convenient of course) and looking forward to reading some of your 'pearls'. 8)
My best shot so far has been this US patent application (and I strongly doubt a final patent will ever be granted) from a Japanese guy, Makoto Ogoshi, perhaps you have also come across him in one of his (Japanese or international) patents out of the several ones he has applied or been granted so far. So my "pearl" is this application: US2005140231, Power generator and torque amplifier, a simple link is here:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20050140231
[In the Example section of the application the inventor wrote the input power was 8 times 50W=400W (from eight 24V DC motors) and the output power was 2 kW AC...]
rgds, Gyula
Hello again Gyula,
Yes I do have info on OGOSHI. See attachment.
One of the best 'pearls' I have found to date comes from Australia. I have attached the full patent application for your perusal. The year - 1979.
More later,
seraphis
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all that you need - to plase this model in seriusly 3D FEM program (not FEMM 4.0) - and see not working
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all that you need - to plase this model in seriusly 3D FEM program (not FEMM 4.0) - and see not working
Hi jonifer,
Would like to know whether you have placed this model in a real 3D FEM program and found it not working or you just express your skepticism? I think even if a real 3D software shows it not working, a practical test by an experienced hands-on person is still justified.
See this link here: http://greenenergy211.blogspot.com/ and the author wrote: I think the largest barrier in seeing a machine built that runs off permanent magnets is our current mental state. There’s no question in my mind that it is quite possible. However, present science says, “it’s NOT possible, that acceleration of an object via Permanent Magnets without ‘LOCK-UP’, demonstrating net gain of energy with NO apparent input of energy.â€
My basic approach is breaking the magnetic symmetry. This is accomplished by creating multiple additional electromagnetic fields from the placement and movement of the permanent magnets. The rotor being magnets as well allows magnetic fields to pass through one another. This is where many new possibilities exist. " This quote came from here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7506-permanent-magnets.html
Thanks, Gyula
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I have to agree with Gyula's post, the possibilities fixed magnets could provide is as yet unexplored to it's full.
Should any experienced hands on person wish to experiment with this, I would love to be involved, although my knowledge in this field is limited.
My own gut feeling, is that we can see a model of symbiotic magnetic field interrelationship, in the rotational motion of heavenly bodies.
Rotational energy is the most visible form of free energy we can observe, it's in every atom, every planet. The earth is a spinning magnetic field with a ferrous core, could this conceivably be harnessed?...mastersus
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Nice topic, much said and links filled with data but are there any builders who have made even a simulation of this device as given in his drawings? Keep the faith and build on it. Smiles to you all and wishing you all a bright future.
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If we are talking about the French patent drawings, then I suppose it would be best to look at it with a different frame of view.
What if the two rotating disks were stationary and the single disk that was stationary rotates! This is the same thing and easier to build and understand and model in a simulator.
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all that you need - to plase this model in seriusly 3D FEM program (not FEMM 4.0) - and see not working
not perfect