Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ? (Read 922486 times)

NickZ · « **Reply #405 on:** June 21, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »

@ Xee2:
How long will your 1.3 volt source battery last on your latest circuit before the led dies.?

xee2 · « **Reply #406 on:** June 21, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »

Quote from: NickZ on June 21, 2011, 04:33:47 PM

@ Xee2:
How long will your 1.3 volt source battery last on your latest circuit before the led dies.?

The battery in the video is rechargeable, they go dead in about 6 months even if not used. With an alkaline battery the LED should stay lit for more than 5 years. But it is very dim, not very useful.

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #407 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:24:36 PM »

Thanks for the vid, Xee2.

@Nick --

Quote

"My BwJt are still discharging the AA battery in two days. "

The test you requested is still going on the little sj1 circuit -- I'll keep it going for two full days.
We are at 44 hours now and the AA battery has dropped from 1.623V to 1.618V. I think the cap/time method is more useful.

I have done further tests with Xee's circuit. My best results came with the following changes:
Replaced green LED with red, e-Goldmine #G13713 - see attached
(5 for a buck; available; could be used as a standard perhaps)

Two 10 nF caps in parallel, connected to the MPSA06 base
(this lowers the frequency to about 24 Hz, visible flicker seen)

The red LED does not go "out" at the transition voltage to lower Pinput, as the green LED does, but it does go very dim to quite bright at 1.57V, and thereafter the power consumption is small.

LED in series with a 21-ohm resistor.

Pinput measured by the cap/time method, using a 10mF cap for Ein:
1.320 volts to 1.240 volts in 187 seconds => 5.4 uW.

Summer solstice, 8 minutes ago!

Beautiful sunny day here.

xee2 · « **Reply #408 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:55:41 PM »

The green LED I used is from Anchor Electronics (408-727-3693), min order $25 plus shipping.

xee2 · « **Reply #409 on:** June 21, 2011, 11:41:51 PM »

@ JouleSeeker

I think your circuit has a problem. I replaced the green LED with a 10mm white high power LED and my circuit still draws 4.0 uA.

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #410 on:** June 22, 2011, 02:07:17 AM »

Quote from: xee2 on June 21, 2011, 11:41:51 PM

@ JouleSeeker

I think your circuit has a problem. I replaced the green LED with a 10mm white high power LED and my circuit still draws 4.0 uA.

Please clarify -- which circuit? and what is the problem you see?

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #411 on:** June 22, 2011, 02:21:52 AM »

@Nick -- I ended the AA-battery test on the sj1 circuit after 2 days (+13 minutes). The voltage was 1.617V, beginning V was 1.623V.

Returning to the sj1 circuit, I found that the red diode dims down to 0.89V, then becomes suddenly brighter again. This is similar to what I observed (as noted above) with my build of Xee2's circuit.

So, I remeasured the Pinput for this region FOLLOWING the re-brightening of the diode in the sj1 circuit (with 50 kohms to the base of the transistor), with the result that the power consumption dropped dramatically, to 8.5uW.

So again, I see evidence that this is an important effect, this re-brightening of the diode (now in both circuits) at a critical voltage. For below V-crit, the power consumption drops off while the brightness of the LED increases. I'm enthused by these results -- its an intriguing effect IMO, one that I'd like to better understand.

Next, by increasing the R to the base from 50 Kohms to 390Kohms, the power consumption goes down to 4.6uW, and the brightening occurs at 1.03V.
(0.90 V to 0.86 V on a 10mF cap, in 77 s).

xee2 · « **Reply #412 on:** June 22, 2011, 03:31:37 AM »

Quote from: JouleSeeker on June 22, 2011, 02:07:17 AM

Please clarify -- which circuit? and what is the problem you see?

You were getting changes in input power for different LEDs in your copy of my circuit. I do not. The input power is primarily set by the base current. The LED used should not effect this.

NickZ · « **Reply #413 on:** June 22, 2011, 04:06:13 AM »

@ JS:
You have some great results, but, if the led is barely lit, what purpose does it serve? With Koolers devices the leds are bright, even three of them for months.
I do have one BwJt that if I turn the pot down all the way the led is about 1/2 brightness and after two days still shows almost the same voltage, but the current has dropped to half of what it started at. Still this show that I'm getting closer to your results, even without using the Goldmine toroids, which I think are the key to your success.
The point is that you are getting there by sacrificing the brightness of the led light. Now maybe try to maintain the brightness from getting dim, and still maintain the same voltage and current. That is where using or tuning to the sweet spot will help.
Thanks again for doing your AA test. I do think that it shows more than your cap test, as the cap test only show discharging of the cap, where as the AA show no sign of loss, or hardly any.

nul-points · « **Reply #414 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:24:40 AM »

Steven

here's an update on the logging results for my SJ1 variant with interrupted supply

as you can see, it does look like it was a case of 'battery relaxation', as expected

i'm going to leave the test running for a while longer, though, because now that the peak cell voltage has been passed, i can observe the comparative effects of different config changes on the cell discharge slope

i've dug out my 4-channel USB micro-logger and connected it up to my latest SJ1 variant - i've been trying out a few different ideas with either NPN or PNP configs (battery supplied) and i can log a single cell terminal voltage, and coil/core and ambient temperatures simultaneously for sustained lengths of time

i'm following your investigation of the 'critical' point with interest - when you first mentioned it, i thought you were referring to the slight 'burst' of light which sometimes occurs immediately before a capacitor supplied LED circuit finally extinguishes - which i put down to some non-linearity in the transistor transfer function around a volt or so (a more 'active' region which suddenly 'consumed' the remaining usable energy - and where there is a slight current surge associated)

but obviously, the effect which you've noticed is indeed related to different levels of efficiency, apparently within the LEDs themselves - a good catch!

greetings
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #415 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:30:31 AM »

Quote from: xee2 on June 22, 2011, 03:31:37 AM

You were getting changes in input power for different LEDs in your copy of my circuit.

Nope, I don't think I said that. Reduction of Pinput was evidently caused by the addition of (quoting from my earlier post):

Quote

Two 10 nF caps in parallel, connected to the MPSA06 base
(this lowers the frequency to about 24 Hz, visible flicker seen)

and LED in series with a 21-ohm resistor

These lower Pinput. Hope this helps.

It is true that changing the LED alone changed the "transition effect" as I've previously noted; the green LED goes completely out for several seconds in the set-up I described, whereas the red LED get dim but does not go completely out -- then both get brighter again. I don't know if you've seen this interesting effect, but it can be quite dramatic when the conditions are right, as I've explained I think.

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #416 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:38:35 AM »

Quote from: NickZ on June 22, 2011, 04:06:13 AM

@ JS:
You have some great results, but, if the led is barely lit, what purpose does it serve? With Koolers devices the leds are bright, even three of them for months.
I do have one BwJt that if I turn the pot down all the way the led is about 1/2 brightness and after two days still shows almost the same voltage, but the current has dropped to half of what it started at. Still this show that I'm getting closer to your results, even without using the Goldmine toroids, which I think are the key to your success.
The point is that you are getting there by sacrificing the brightness of the led light. Now maybe try to maintain the brightness from getting dim, and still maintain the same voltage and current. That is where using or tuning to the sweet spot will help.
Thanks again for doing your AA test. I do think that it shows more than your cap test, as the cap test only show discharging of the cap, where as the AA show no sign of loss, or hardly any.

OK, thanks. I'm hoping this decrease in power consumption Pinput while the LED brightens at a critical voltage will be important in our quest for OU. Don't know yet, but I suspect you would agree with that goal.

@np -- thanks very much, and your interest int he critical point is much appreciated.

Quote

i'm following your investigation of the 'critical' point with interest - when you first mentioned it, i thought you were referring to the slight 'burst' of light which sometimes occurs immediately before a capacitor supplied LED circuit finally extinguishes - which i put down to some non-linearity in the transistor transfer function around a volt or so (a more 'active' region which suddenly 'consumed' the remaining usable energy - and where there is a slight current surge associated)

but obviously, the effect which you've noticed is indeed related to different levels of efficiency, apparently within the LEDs themselves - a good catch!

greetings
np

I don't know where the different levels of efficiency reside... interesting question.

I will feel more confident when someone else observes the same effect, which I have seen now with BOTH the sj1-circuit and Xee2's JT. It appears to help to add a small R in series with the LED -- 5 ohms has worked well for me. The color of the LED does also seem to play a significant role in how the "transition effect" plays out.

nul-points · « **Reply #417 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:59:09 AM »

Quote from: JouleSeeker on June 22, 2011, 06:38:35 AM

[...]
I will feel more confident when someone else observes the same effect, which I have seen now with BOTH the sj1-circuit and Xee2's JT. It appears to help to add a small R in series with the LED -- 5 ohms has worked well for me. The color of the LED does also seem to play a significant role in how the "transition effect" plays out.

hmm - such a low resistance involved - that IS interesting!

first thoughts - some of these resistors are manufactured as a resistive spiral (around the length of the central body) - aka an inductor!

so, with low ohms (less damping) you could get a nice tuned circuit at some high (> 1MHz?) frequency

i believe that an LED works by introducing light energy into a 'reflective well' to achieve a type of optical standing wave to help cohere the light some? (in fact, i heard a reference somewhere to LEDs being 'failed' lasers)

anyway, with some possible 'negative resistance' behaviour in the LED mechanism (as in tunnel diodes) and a reactive component, sounds like you've cooked up a good recipe for a compact little 'burst' oscillator?

just my 2c

...i must get some sleep - 6am here now, woke up at 1am & got started on the tech stuff!

all the best
np

PS will try to look for the effect - when i free up a test board!

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #418 on:** June 22, 2011, 08:00:42 AM »

Thanks for the comments and for you enthusiasm to look and do experiments, NP.
Hope you get (or by now, got) some good rest.

Over at the Muller/Romero thread, I noticed something, but they don't like jabber -- so I'll mention it here if y'all don't mind.

Earlier today (here) Romero said several things, including:

Quote

I would love to clarify many things and shut off all this questions but I am not in the position to do it.
I have made a big mistake without any intention and that turned back to me, but this is life, we all do mistakes, now is done and must move on.
At the begining I had no ideea what is happening and I was scared to dead, cannot explain that, many are brave and laughing, I am not. Since then I had more understanding, talked to some people and understood what is all about.
[snip]
There are so many patents that have full details..."

OK, seems logical that Romero was approached by suits who represent a company trying to protect their patents. They threatened him with lawsuits I expect. He made the mistake of talking about "Muller devices" in some detail, and using the name "Muller" in his discussions -- He also said that he is not going to work on "Muller" devices any more, but rather a device of his own design... You can guess which company approached him... but I don't have enough clues to be sure about that. He is hesitant to say anything really helpful now about his "Muller device"/video, but he can talk about his non-Muller device, which he feels does not step over the line re: this threat from a company holding what they think is a big patent.

Make sense?

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #419 on:** June 22, 2011, 09:17:08 AM »

Can't sleep just now... wheels turning.

OK -- next deduction re:company M that "visited" RUK -- what did they REALLY want from Romero?
A: his device. R-UK said it was confiscated, did not say by whom (probably under threat again).
Q: why did they want his device?
A: because they believe RUK found a way to get it operate better, or perhaps even a "secret" that inventor Muller (now dead, we know) did not reveal prior to his demise.
They needed the actual Romero device to back-engineer, to make their patent useful to them!

If this line of reasoning is correct, they are now feverishly trying to get their machine on the market, incorporating Romero's "secrets"... and they may be willing to silence others until they get the device into production. They are almost certainly following the discussion here at OU to glean more information useful to them...

Is this a good thing? No, certainly not good what they did to RUK, "scared to death" he said. And his device was confiscated. You gotta admit, that was bold of whoever seized it.

If company M is seeking to monopolize this invention and "protect their patents", they may try to squelch the discussion here. Or they may just follow it from a distance...
They may go after other "successful replications." Of course, this line of reasoning suggests a way to find out about these guys and their intent... one just claims a self-running build of a Muller device, and...
You can figure it out from there. A good novel if nothing else!
But seriously..... I gotta get some sleep. zzzzzzzz.......
Cheers!

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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ? (Read 922486 times)

NickZ

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xee2

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