Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM (Read 1213734 times)

hartiberlin · « **Reply #435 on:** December 25, 2009, 07:21:41 PM »

Hi Ben,
many thanks for the scopeshots.
These are as expected.

Please can you now only turn the rotor by hand , give it a quick spin
with some kind of thread wound around the cola tube and just scope the
voltage from the coil, put the scope heads directly across the coil
without any switching.

I really would love to see, how much induction voltage your magnets are
putting out into your coil and how the waveform looks.

Probably only a very small some kind of a sin^2 waveform..
around the zero line..

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

MileHigh · « **Reply #436 on:** December 25, 2009, 07:31:35 PM »

Broli:

Quote

Sure it isn't since you have tried or any alien race to absolutely prove this, right? I'm sure Tesla was a blockhead using simple inductive and capacitance laws to do things 1 million EE's combined can't do today.

Actually Tesla's experiments and gained knowledge were very interesting and advanced science to a certain extent, but science has moved way beyond Tesla at the present time. We don't use Tesla's technology today because we have developed better technologies and better ways of doing things.

You should try to stay away from the "every possible arrangement conceivable to mankind" angle, it is a false argument. You can understand how certain electrical circuits work and then apply that gained knowledge in a general sense to all circuits of the same type.

Quote

This thread has some good momentum behind it with already decent experimentation beginning. I will politely ask you to either contribute to encourage positive progress or not disturb the progress with your short sighted believes. Thank you for your understanding.

No way. You should not be saying that at all. People have a right to express their opinions. There is a difference between expressing a different opinion and people like Wilby that disrupt threads and go off topic for the "sport" of arguing.

Exnihiloest has the same right to express his opinion here as you do and as I do. This fundamental principle of free speech and the exchange of ideas is thousands of times more important that your personal feelings about who should be allowed to post and who shouldn't be allowed to post.

I know that you don't want me to post either but I will post if I want to post. This is what freedom and free speech are all about and you should apologize to Exnihiloest for your statement.

Lumen:

Quote

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Broli is right, the current does not change direction. Seeing the voltage reverse across a coil makes people think that the current changes direction but in fact the current keeps flowing in the same direction.

Gravityblock:

Quote

In this case, the mechanical gain due to no CEMF is already OU (Lenz violation). Recovering the BEMF makes it more OU. This really burns you naysayers to no end. I love it.

There is no Lenz's law violation going on in the Steorn demo. There is CEMF but at a very low level. Most importantly, there is no OU. Don't believe that there is OU until it is proven to you. All that you saw with the Steorn demo was a pulse motor that demonstrated "classical" electrical and magnetic theories.

Lenz's Law is alive and well and this should not be surprising if you examine what they were demonstrating carefully. In the next few days I will post my impressions of what Steorn demoed and you can agree or disagree with me.

MileHigh

hartiberlin · « **Reply #437 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:00:41 PM »

MileHigh,
just wait until Ben posts his scopeshots of the hand turning induction into his
coil.
Then we can say more.

k4zep · « **Reply #438 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:37:37 PM »

Quote from: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 08:00:41 PM

MileHigh,
just wait until Ben posts his scopeshots of the hand turning induction into his
coil.
Then we can say more.

Hi Stefan,

Spun motor up to 1000 RPM @ 26VDC give or take. Removed power, scope shot directly across coil, 20mv./div. 50 to 60 mv peak funky sine wave due to imperfect magnet placement (shaky hands and eyeballs). IF all 4 coils were balanced, I assume they would disappear. When I rebuild it, I will try to balance to less than .1uH. Lets see 60 mv back emf vs. 26 volts not bad. Hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Ben

MileHigh · « **Reply #439 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:41:16 PM »

Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance. If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns. Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance. When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil? Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns. It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns. Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above. The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction as the magnetic field, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils. The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero. As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil. This makes perfect sense. We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil. Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil. It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil. A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil. You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip. The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil? That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh

broli · « **Reply #440 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:47:22 PM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 08:41:16 PM

Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance. If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns. Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance. When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil? Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns. It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns. Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above. The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils. The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero. As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil. This makes perfect sense. We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil. Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil. It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil. A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil. You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip. The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil? That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh

Good morning to you too. Too bad you missed the train and arrived to a conclusion which everyone and his cat already accepted. But I guess that's the sickness attention seekers like you have. Next time try to be on time.

k4zep · « **Reply #441 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:49:09 PM »

Hi Gang,

A further video.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafdIK5tzAs

Mile high has some very good observations and very good pointed questions as to theory of this device, most excellent. We can discuss them as time passes by....Are we having fun?

Happy new year.

Ben

MileHigh · « **Reply #442 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:58:57 PM »

Broli:

Quote

Good morning to you too. Too bad you missed the train and arrived to a conclusion which everyone and his cat already accepted. But I guess that's the sickness attention seekers like you have. Next time try to be on time.

Quote

Mile high has some very good observations and very good pointed questions as to theory of this device, most excellent. We can discuss them as time passes by....Are we having fun?

You were the 10 counter-clockwise turns and K4zep was the 10 clockwise turns so the statements canceled each other out, with the bonus that people can look at your statements and draw some conclusions about your character.

MileHigh

k4zep · « **Reply #443 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:08:39 PM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 08:41:16 PM

Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance. If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns. Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance. When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil? Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns. It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns. Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above. The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction as the magnetic field, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils. The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero. As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil. This makes perfect sense. We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil. Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil. It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil. A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil. You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip. The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil? That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MHand all

Hi MH,

I'm for anyone jumping into the discussion as long as they remain a gentleman.

The problem with induction and bifilar wound coils is simple, sort of like the chicken and the egg, which comes first.

If you don't have inductance you can't have induction, but if you have induction and a magnetic field INSIDE the core from nominal external excition (power supply), does the passing magnetic fields interact with the internal field and in return show up in the coil when it is balanced or cause a special type of field anti-torque reflected back into the magnetic rotor? Don't know yet, Obviously with the coil around the core on, it is shielded from external fields, but when floating, of course there could be interaction but to what. There is no load on the coil, therefore there is no current flow and hence no induction fields.....funky. If I can get the effective coil inductance down to <.1ufH with tedious trimming of individual coil turns and hence a resistive load, perhaps we can precede further into this discussion as a building block in our knowledge into this mode of operation.

OU, I don't know. Steorn thinks so.....I suspect the effect is OU expressed in mechanical terms, but is there enough for the "ride to glory!". Until I get a refined enough motor to run a generator, I haven't a clue.
Now darn it, there are some crackerjack of builders out there because I have seen their work, lets get a few more of these motors operating!!!!!

Respectfully,
Ben

lumen · « **Reply #444 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:37:32 PM »

Quote

Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding.

Well, if you think about any coil on a relay, which way is the shunt diode that SHORTS the fly back?

Hmmm... it's not in the direction of the initial current flow.

I have been in electronics for 30 years.... I probably have an idea. I have a two oscilloscopes also and can set it up to look like anything, but the term fly back IS exactly what it means.

broli · « **Reply #445 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:46:55 PM »

Quote from: lumen on December 25, 2009, 09:37:32 PM

Well, if you think about any coil on a relay, which way is the shunt diode that SHORTS the fly back?

Hmmm... it's not in the direction of the initial current flow.

I have been in electronics for 30 years.... I probably have an idea. I have a two oscilloscopes also and can set it up to look like anything, but the term fly back IS exactly what it means.

If you can't see that 1+1=2 then there's little reason to argue. If we don't have a mutual understanding of basic things we will never achieve anything.

hartiberlin · « **Reply #446 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:57:59 PM »

Quote from: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 08:41:16 PM

Stephan:
.....

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil. You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip. The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil? That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh

Yes, you are totally right...
BUT you can extract about 90 % of the inputted electrical energy via BackEMF extraction.
Then you have almost the rotational energy due to the attraction of the magnet to the ferrite core FOR FREE !

Then the attraction energy must only be bigger than the 10 % you will not be able to
extract via the BackEMF extraction circuit.

The simplest BackEMF extraction circuit is just a graetz bridge across (parallel ) to all the toroidal coil in series
feeding a capacitor.

mondrasek · « **Reply #447 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:03:16 PM »

Isn't it wonderful what civility and knowledge can do?

Gentlemen, (and I ask many to re-read that last word) I applaud you!

Please continue posting your findings! Cool stuff!

M.

PS. TK, would you kindly join in here?

hartiberlin · « **Reply #448 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:06:37 PM »

Quote from: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 08:37:37 PM

Hi Stefan,

Spun motor up to 1000 RPM @ 26VDC give or take. Removed power, scope shot directly across coil, 20mv./div. 50 to 60 mv peak funky sine wave due to imperfect magnet placement (shaky hands and eyeballs). IF all 4 coils were balanced, I assume they would disappear. When I rebuild it, I will try to balance to less than .1uH. Lets see 60 mv back emf vs. 26 volts not bad. Hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Ben

Hi Ben,
many thanks for the scopeshot !
Well , now we know, that with a good setup this will work.

60 mV with so many coil windings on neodym magnets is pretty low
at almost 1000RPM.
If you would take a normal coil with the same number of windings
and would use it, the induced voltage would be probably a few volts,
so we can say that the motor to generator effect is very asymmentrical,
what we also need for an OU motor.

So it seems the toroidal coil does not work well as a generator
and so the counterEMF(induction into the coil while motor is running)
is very much suppressed which
is a very good sign that this motor is just a motor and not a generator.

This way it can be designed as an OU motor with stronger magnets and the
right mechanical and electrical setup with BackEMF extraction and short gap magnetic
flux pathes.( low magnetic flux losses)

hartiberlin · « **Reply #449 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:23:05 PM »

Hi Ben,
could you please put a graetz bridge rectifier bridge across your toroidal coil and charge up a big cap with it during the motor runs ?
Would like to see the produced voltage and the cap uF capacity.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM (Read 1213734 times)

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