Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 03:13:07 PM

Title: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 03:13:07 PM
Couldn't resist  posting this after reading it seconds ago.

Free Energy Truth makes a good point -->

Quote,
http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2009/12/steorn-confirmation.html (http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2009/12/steorn-confirmation.html)
Quote
ask yourself whether you think Steorn would have spent 14 million Euros, have 20 full time staff, spent the last 6 years on developing this and outrightly refused offers of investment then be committing themselves to a launch and media scrutiny if they had nothing.

If Sean was a crook, then he may as well have ran away with the 14 million euros. Instead, Sean pays a staff of people.

Well, Steorn has no more than 27 days to demonstrate their device. We'll have to see.
http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/newyear.html (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/newyear.html)

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 03:15:06 PM
And another interesting statement by Free Energy Truth,

Quote
Anonymous - you said: "Ah ha! Maybe this will be revealing. Be honest here, lets say at Las Vega a  was offering bets on Steorn. If you had say 100 million dollars, how much of that would you bet that Steorn had an over unity or COP>1 device? Be honest!"

All of it.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Cherryman on December 04, 2009, 03:22:09 PM
Quote: " We are less than 4 weeks away from this as we speak, so it will be a December launch for free energy."


Maybe thats why they hurry with the Kopenhagen agreement....  The energy industrie and politics need to secure there monyflow...

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 03:25:04 PM
6 years employies and millions to play with ...


hahaha

i did it on a shoe string .. alone ...

top it!

plus i already released ..  how they all work ...  and if there other ways ... and im sure there are .. then i will have to take a peek and see why they do as they do ... 

this usually takes me a watch or 2 of the video ...

ist!

he better hope he is not doing it electro magnetic ... as he will not gain 1 pattend ... why ?

thats right .....
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 04, 2009, 10:01:30 PM
I must of missed all those videos!  :o
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 04, 2009, 10:49:01 PM
6 years employies and millions to play with ...


hahaha

i did it on a shoe string .. alone ...

top it!

plus i already released ..  how they all work ...  and if there other ways ... and im sure there are .. then i will have to take a peek and see why they do as they do ... 

this usually takes me a watch or 2 of the video ...

ist!

he better hope he is not doing it electro magnetic ... as he will not gain 1 pattend ... why ?

thats right .....

It is at the request of the readers-of-broken-verse, mystery and mayhem therein.  I bequeath thee, post forth the aforementioned as you..
did it on a shoe string .. alone ...

And cast out the demon once and for all.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 06:22:19 PM
23 days or less!  FreeEnergyTruth heard from Sean, and he says it's all going as planned.

Hey, when the big moment happens, and Steorn announces something or starts the live video feed of the Orbo, could you *please* email me because I'll find out faster that way.

My email address (protected against spam spiders via javascript) is at,

http://globalfreeenergy.info/contact-me/ (http://globalfreeenergy.info/contact-me/)

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: FatChance!!! on December 09, 2009, 08:05:27 AM
The launch will just consist of another web update without any real meat of interest.
Or they'll postpone the launch as all their other launches....which seems most likely.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 09, 2009, 12:05:17 PM
The 'Orbo' is definitely a scam. I'd like to be wrong but I don't think I am.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 10, 2009, 08:48:23 PM
Someone just emailed this to me,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M)

Very cool. Can anyone make out what it all says?

BTW, I was unaware of the new posts in this thread. Someone keeps logging into my account, reading my *unread* private messages, and sometimes disables my notifications. LOL! What's the big deal, I have no secrets.  ;D   Anyway, again, I appreciate the heads up via email on any Steorn news.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 10, 2009, 08:55:13 PM
Someone just emailed this to me,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M)

Very cool. Can anyone make out what it all says?

BTW, I was unaware of the new posts in this thread. Someone keeps logging into my account, reading my *unread* private messages, and sometimes disables my notifications. LOL! What's the big deal, I have no secrets.  ;D   Anyway, again, I appreciate the heads up via email on any Steorn news.

Regards,
Paul

BTW, there are a lot of concerning words in that ad such as fraud, fairy tell, snake oil, non-sense? Is Steorn saying it's all a fake, or are they just quoting skeptics?

Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 10, 2009, 08:59:35 PM
Hey folks,

Besides the video of the Steorn ad in the previous post, looks like stuff is starting to happen, and soon we'll see. Someone told me about the new official Steorn youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial (http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial)

Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 10, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
Someone just emailed this to me,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vek5AKeOI8M)

Very cool. Can anyone make out what it all says?

BTW, I was unaware of the new posts in this thread. Someone keeps logging into my account, reading my *unread* private messages, and sometimes disables my notifications. LOL! What's the big deal, I have no secrets.  ;D   Anyway, again, I appreciate the heads up via email on any Steorn news.

Regards,
Paul

 Someone who knows what's happening emailed saying this is a new Ad by Steorn, which includes quotes from skeptics. Looks like global free energy will be realized in 2009.
 
 Paul
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: infringer on December 11, 2009, 05:30:25 AM
one word ...

Sweet!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 11, 2009, 06:53:32 AM
If they're paying $$$ for ad space and intend to do nothing, as they have for the last 4+ years, that's just wrong. Playing Devil's Advocate, it could simply be a maneuver to keep investors paying Steorn's bills. I hope I'm wrong, but it really seems quite absurd at this point.
Title: Two interesting anagrams of Steorn
Post by: kmarinas86 on December 11, 2009, 08:16:41 AM
one word ...

Sweet!

Steorn is an anagram of the words stoner and tensor.

"Stoner-types" are what make up "Steorn". You can see it in their consistently laid back personalities. This is how they sell their "pesty" hoax.

Tensor: Their multi-dimensional plot to twist the minds of investors in hyperbolic "goobely-gook".

Other anagrams:

nestor - Later Greek commander during the siege of "Troy", and a victim of a "Trojan horse" hoax who claimed his own side had it coming "Nestor declared that the Trojans were winning because Agamemnon had angered Achilles, and urged the king [Achilles] to appease the warrior"
noters - recorders of an outline of a speech, statement, testimony, etc., or of one's impressions of something.
tenors - the course of thought or meaning that runs through something written or spoken; purport; drift.
toners - persons or things that tone.
trones - a large pair of scales, a spring balance, or other weighing device located in a town or marketplace to weigh goods and merchandise.

Quote from: http://www.design215.com/toolbox/wordfind.php
Length     Starts with     Ends with     Contains     Unscramble
6 letters                                                             steorn
 
or less
                
any order
    
all possible

English word lists:
Standard: 99,300+ standard words and abbreviations
Extended: 167,900+ SCRABBLE® words* (INCLUDES SLANG)

   Clear

*There are issues with the extended list. Learn more >

Searched: 167964 words in 0.934 seconds
Words Found: 7    Scrambled Letters: stoner 

nestor
noters
stoner
tenors
tensor
toners
trones

I wouldn't be surprised if that name was a joke.
Title: Re: Two interesting anagrams of Steorn
Post by: happyfunball on December 11, 2009, 08:43:34 AM
Steorn is an anagram of the words stoner and tensor.

"Stoner-types" are what make up "Steorn". You can see it in their consistently laid back personalities. This is how they sell their "pesty" hoax.

Tensor: Their multi-dimensional plot to twist the minds of investors in hyperbolic "goobely-gook".

Other anagrams:

nestor - Later Greek commander during the siege of "Troy", and a victim of a "Trojan horse" hoax who claimed his own side had it coming "Nestor declared that the Trojans were winning because Agamemnon had angered Achilles, and urged the king [Achilles] to appease the warrior"
noters - recorders of an outline of a speech, statement, testimony, etc., or of one's impressions of something.
tenors - the course of thought or meaning that runs through something written or spoken; purport; drift.
toners - persons or things that tone.
trones - a large pair of scales, a spring balance, or other weighing device located in a town or marketplace to weigh goods and merchandise.

I wouldn't be surprised if that name was a joke.

Lol nice.


Scam:

'Macs' / 'Cams' ( Kinetica demo?)
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 11, 2009, 04:48:22 PM
Steorn just posted a new video,

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial

I love it! LMAO
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: FatChance!!! on December 11, 2009, 08:19:47 PM
Words..words..and more words....
What was there to love about this video?
It's just as inconclusive as usual.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 11, 2009, 08:26:37 PM
LOL, I just love overunity.com, the great theatrical play, brought to you by Big Oil.  ;)
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 11, 2009, 10:44:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTAEWpEmt5Y
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 12, 2009, 02:45:57 AM
Paul,

The video has been removed from YouTube. Do you have another link?

As far as your account, did you try changing your login password? I assume you have. If you still have a problem you need to notify Stefan. He should be able to trace were the hostile login is coming from.

In reference to this thread on Steorn. I have been following this since it began, and I am amazed how drawn out this whole process has been. The amazing breakthrough has always been pushed back. Again and again the promises, then the let downs. It sucks!!

I have reached the point where I'd just like to tell those guys to shut up and kiss my foot! Just shut up, release the technology, and get rich already. I'm sick of it because in the end the cost will save the average consumer NOTHING! Just wait and see, just like the oil companies, they will jack up the price and drain us just like it has always been done in the past.

Sorry, just venting.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 12, 2009, 02:49:55 AM
Sorry, just saw the video Happy.

Is that the one that Paul posted the link for?

I assume it is.

Coming soon to a youtube screen near you, the promise is repeated again.

and again and again......blah blah.

Sick of it...PERIOD!!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 12, 2009, 02:58:57 AM
Sure, someone copied it and has it playing at youtube. Sounds like you don't want to watch Steorn's new video.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 12, 2009, 04:04:18 AM
I'm sick of it because in the end the cost will save the average consumer NOTHING! Just wait and see, just like the oil companies, they will jack up the price and drain us just like it has always been done in the past.

Sorry, just venting.

Steorn isn't going to drain anyone except their investors.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: vonwolf on December 12, 2009, 04:05:48 AM
   That youtube video is the same one they have on their home page, I'm not sure how long it's been there but it's kind of old so I don't know the end of what year their talking about?
   It would be great if it was this year but it seems like their more driven by money then saving the world so I'm not sure it will make any difference.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 12, 2009, 03:20:28 PM
Nope, it was their new advert. You missed it. They posted it momentarily at youtube as a test while they get everything going to make sure it all works. You can still find it at youtube as someone copied it.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: infringer on December 12, 2009, 04:10:01 PM
Driven by money???

Yeah right think about it if you had the best find since sliced bread you would want to be rewarded as well and amply rewarded ...

They should make this a law anyone who finds a way to create energy in this manner should be payed more then the highest payed sports player by the DOE of not just one but every nation!

They should not go broke like Tesla did feeding pigeons his last years and living in a single cramped room!

It is a world changing thing there is no excuse for this kind of thing it is GREED and nothing more!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 12, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
They should make this a law anyone who finds a way to create energy in this manner should be payed more then the highest payed sports player by the DOE of not just one but every nation!

Yes, because legislating profits works so well.  Why don't we make a law that we should all be rich, and then no one would be poor and we could all afford the energy we need?   And let's make a law that that Orbo should be a real thing and not a figment of someone's imagination.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 12, 2009, 06:13:01 PM
Someone took a snapshot of the bulletin board that Steorn has advertising on for a few days now,
 
 http://imgur.com/x2EFd (http://imgur.com/x2EFd)
 
Someone also took a video of this bulletin, which is essentially the Steorn new video mainly consisting of the negative quotes made by skeptics. Steorn is obviously getting ready to make a fool out of closed minded skeptics. Ah, btw, any closed minded skeptics in this thread willing to come forth and reveal your names?  ;)   Ha ha, it's so big of people to throw rocks anonymously.
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: infringer on December 12, 2009, 06:14:47 PM
Your going a little overboard ...

You do not think in all fairness that this discovery should not be handsomely rewarded I went a little overboard as well but the whole sports player salary thing has really troubled me as of late is why I give such an analogy sorry bit one sided I suppose...

All that I am saying is the monetary value for such a find is hard to equate but the discoverer(s) should not reside the rest of there life as paupers because they freely gave away something of such importance.

Bottom line our life would be changed full circle so many issues can be solved with OU or free energy... People seem fail at understanding how important such a thing or find like this would be.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Cloxxki on December 12, 2009, 06:28:48 PM
Give the inventor 1$ for every person ever to use it. Paid from carbon taxes.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: infringer on December 12, 2009, 08:02:41 PM
It should be a fair amount of money because of the amount of time conversion and adoption would take. Hell if they provided pirated movies and music with there product maybe they could be gillonares like billy gates muahahahaha!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2009, 08:12:44 PM
The value of the device Steorn is claiming would be so much, they would need to buy Microsoft as a tax incentive.

Just think of the trillion dollar a year oil and gas companies that will be gone! Their product reduced to less than 1% of current value. (still good for plastics and fertilizer)

Just think of the HUGE boost to the world economy this would bring! Unemployment would be less than .5% for every developed nation for years!

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 12, 2009, 08:15:26 PM
All that I am saying is the monetary value for such a find is hard to equate but the discoverer(s) should not reside the rest of there life as paupers because they freely gave away something of such importance.

There are already private and public prizes and grants for certain achievements.  An example is the Nobel prize, which comes with a substantial monetary award.

And Paul, if Steorn turns out to be the real thing, i.e. bona fide overunity, free energy from magnets, real deal, I will gladly reveal my real name and private information.  I have zero worry that this will actually happen.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2009, 08:35:54 PM
The limits of mans ability, are found in the limits of his imagination!
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Cloxxki on December 13, 2009, 12:23:09 AM
Well, it's not entirely something out of nothing, right? From the little I was able to see of Steorn, you get heavy, slow moving machinery, with a surplus somewhere. To obsolete a nuke plant, it will need to be BIG. And no-where near free of charge.
The wealth to be found in a free energy device will be mostly decided by it's practicality. Average KWatts per kilo of device, or square floor meter needed. Cheaper to make than a windmills, less intrusive to community life, and a bit more output? That's going to warrent some industrial sized devices to be built. Building Microsoft to act as personal IT provider...not just yet.
If your one industrial device can obsolete all the others on earth, killing the energy industry altogether, the device feeding all the grip on the globe with plenty of power...yes, that would be huge. However, it would also be global war, instantly. No army could defend that device. Owning the de device would be like being a Kennedy walking around with a bulleye print on your jacket, your car, your house, your plane.
I hope the Steorn thing will prove to be like 5x better than a good windmill or solar panel, thanks to being weather independant. No crisis just yet, but a good boost for hunanity, and trade.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 12:33:50 AM
And Paul, if Steorn turns out to be the real thing, i.e. bona fide overunity, free energy from magnets, real deal, I will gladly reveal my real name and private information.

Get ready to reveal your real name & private information.  :)
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 12:37:14 AM
IST, 48/72 hour notice, get ready for project Guardian Steorn.  ;) Many brothers are now gathering for this global pinnacle moment.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2009, 01:19:54 AM
IST, 48/72 hour notice, get ready for project Guardian Steorn.  ;) Many brothers are now gathering for this global pinnacle moment.

this is THE REAL DEAL ...  AND IT WILL ALL BE FINE ... 

ALL WILL STAND ...  MORE ENGERY BALLS WERE SET IN MOTION ... TODAY ..

no worries.. 

william filsinger!

 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2009, 03:19:41 AM
William:

GIANT WAREHOUSES FILLED WITH TENS OF MILLIONS OF ORBOS GENERATING THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF MEGAWATTS OF FREE ENERGY ELECTRICITY.  ENOUGH POWER TO DESALINATE OCEAN WATER AND TURN DESERTS INTO LUSH FIELDS!!  THE POWER SOURCE FOR THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY!!  CHEAP CHEAP PRODUCTION OF GOODS AND SERVICES BECAUSE ENERGY COSTS WILL BE ALMOST NIL!!  THE DAWN OF THE AGE OF AQUARIUS!!!

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY YOUR CELL PHONE WILL NEVER NEED CHARGING!!!!!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: grayone on December 13, 2009, 04:28:34 AM
The hype is well done. Even better than before. But what proof has anyone ever seen, or confirmed. Allot of flash but.  ???
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 04:49:20 AM
Anybody that's seen or heard of something should just wait till the demo. It will happen soon enough. People can wait. That's what Sean & Steorn wants. Lets not get everyone who lives near Dublin all hyped up and trying to breaking in the demonstration building. Let them be until it's time. One person already broke in.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 13, 2009, 04:52:52 AM
Why do you suppose 'The Jury' found no excess energy? Surely they would have it were legit, no?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 05:04:32 AM
The jury found no excess energy because the jury was never allowed to see anything. LOL. Ding dong low end skeptics. I'd do the same thing, blow them off and ignore them. Such skeptics say the most negative things. Hey, there's a thought. Just maybe, just maybe Sean got fed up with those ding dongs and began ignoring them.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 13, 2009, 05:09:11 AM
The jury found no excess energy because the jury was never allowed to see anything. LOL. Ding dong low end skeptics. I'd do the same thing, blow them off and ignore them. Such skeptics say the most negative things. Hey, there's a thought. Just maybe, just maybe Sean got fed up with those ding dongs and began ignoring them.

Um, then what were they testing?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 13, 2009, 05:14:07 AM
Quote
Why do you suppose 'The Jury' found no excess energy?

Just a guess, but I think even though an energy gain may be shown on a test device using a given set of moves, building a device that can make the moves required and maintain low enough friction may not be that easy.

Judging from their last video, I looks like they may have overcome some final issues and have something operating.
At least we will all know in a few days one way or the other!

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 13, 2009, 05:17:25 AM
Just a guess, but I think even though an energy gain may be shown on a test device using a given set of moves, building a device that can make the moves required and maintain low enough friction may not be that easy.

Judging from their last video, I looks like they may have overcome some final issues and have something operating.
At least we will all know in a few days one way or the other!

You have to admit it's pretty odd to think that such a device would then be able to generate any real torque.

Btw, what's this guy up to  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXa09EVJ_fI
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 05:17:35 AM
Um, then what were they testing?

Their patience. They never not for one nanosecond had the device.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 13, 2009, 02:35:03 PM
Quote
You have to admit it's pretty odd to think that such a device would then be able to generate any real torque.

If it can be developed into a rotary system, a small torque is very useful!
Once you reach about 100,000 RPM, even a tiny torque can do a substantial amount of work.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: pcjunkie on December 13, 2009, 03:41:23 PM
Jet engines are not particularly powerful. They have a low power output - that is until they are spinning at 40,000RPM and higher, then you are getting foot pounds of pressure. 

When you ramp up the revs on those things it takes a while. Remeber the Airbus that crashed at the show, flew into the forest? The pilot started to Rev up at the end of the runway as he entered its zone, by the time he hit the forest 12 seconds later his engines were only just beginning to provide lift. Now compare a slight throttle tweak on a giant Diesel or if the plane had an old radial engine, the effect would have been instant.

As for the crash, most jets ramp up the engines as they hit the low point and by half way they are starting to provide the power.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 13, 2009, 10:05:51 PM

Serious, anyone who has the software to record the live Steorn video coverage should be prepared! It might require screen capture video software. You *will* want to analyze the live video feeds later on.

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 14, 2009, 07:20:27 PM
Did anyone catch this? Someone snuck in and got some pictures (no video). Apparently it was running. The person claims that the demo will be sometime this week.

http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2009/12/first_glimpse_of_the_demo_orbo_whirring_1.html
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: broli on December 14, 2009, 07:55:53 PM
Did anyone catch this? Someone snuck in and got some pictures (no video). Apparently it was running. The person claims that the demo will be sometime this week.

http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2009/12/first_glimpse_of_the_demo_orbo_whirring_1.html (http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2009/12/first_glimpse_of_the_demo_orbo_whirring_1.html)

He made that post on past Saturday so "next week" is this week for us.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!! (15-Dec)
Post by: Staffman on December 14, 2009, 08:55:04 PM
Per the link below the demo will be tomorrow 15 Dec at 10 AM in Dublin.


http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2009/12/steorn_demo_to_begin_tomorrow.html

There is a stream at

http://www.livestream.com/steorn

Should be live tomorrow.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: grayone on December 15, 2009, 12:36:47 AM
Staffman; What was that cable attached to it for?

First thing that came to mind is he is running it under power and then when he takes the cable off it will run on its own. At least for a while for a demo?

http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/images/demo_orbo.jpg

It looks like a cable to it to me.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 15, 2009, 12:53:48 AM
Staffman; What was that cable attached to it for?

First thing that came to mind is he is running it under power and then when he takes the cable off it will run on its own. At least for a while for a demo?

http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/images/demo_orbo.jpg

It looks like a cable to it to me.

Your right! I didn't notice that before. May it's taking measurements? I guess we will see tomorrow.
Title: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hekkmekk on December 15, 2009, 02:33:42 AM
Steorn starts another try for a public demo.

Live at http://www.livestream.com/steorn (http://www.livestream.com/steorn)
Start probably December 15th, 10AM GMT

Let's see what they have...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 15, 2009, 03:28:00 AM
Steorn starts another try for a public demo.

Live at http://www.livestream.com/steorn (http://www.livestream.com/steorn)
Start probably December 15th, 10AM GMT

Let's see what they have...

what is the password?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hekkmekk on December 15, 2009, 03:32:34 AM
Have a look at:
http://static.livestream.com/grid/LSPlayer.swf?channel=steorn&autoPlay=true (http://static.livestream.com/grid/LSPlayer.swf?channel=steorn&autoPlay=true)

nice ya?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 15, 2009, 03:37:41 AM
Have a look at:
http://static.livestream.com/grid/LSPlayer.swf?channel=steorn&autoPlay=true (http://static.livestream.com/grid/LSPlayer.swf?channel=steorn&autoPlay=true)

nice ya?

it says, offline.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: dankie on December 15, 2009, 03:45:54 AM
I'm afraid   Michoi  cockface is right on this one , its just nice scam , they talked about him on FOX news  lol give me  a  break , clearly they will use these guys as an lauughing stock  to humiliate any future debate .
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 15, 2009, 05:37:59 AM
I want to see them shave their heads AND their pubes this time.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 15, 2009, 05:56:10 AM
I think no undeserving fool should have a reach around here. take your turn please!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 15, 2009, 06:17:54 AM
Any chance those are laptop battery packs acting as the bases for the three Orbos?   :)

MileHigh

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: happyfunball on December 15, 2009, 09:37:18 AM
Live stream of Orbo up and running. Orbo up and running. Pinch me, I must be hallucinating..
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 15, 2009, 10:05:45 AM
Pinch me again, two live streams up and running. Orbo spinning.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: broli on December 15, 2009, 10:55:45 AM
There we have it. An electromagnetic system powered by a battery that never dies. I don't think a lot of people would like that.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 15, 2009, 10:58:47 AM
The orbo runs from a battery and then charges the battery in their own words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JikYfmEdF8

GB
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: tinu on December 15, 2009, 12:16:38 PM
I suppose they lack caps, right?
If so, I can borrow them a couple…
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Cloxxki on December 15, 2009, 12:42:56 PM
I can't stream here. Please a quick report?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 15, 2009, 12:51:03 PM
Live stream of Orbo up and running. Orbo up and running. Pinch me, I must be hallucinating..

lol!
You’re just fine and not hallucinating.
It’s running from batteries. Even I (far from a great builder) can make a motor running 4-6months from 2 AA (2000mAh) batteries.
So, see you in …June-July 2010.

I guess Orbo is the biggest charade of all times…
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 15, 2009, 12:51:49 PM
I've been watching the live feed.

I noticed that they have a couple of guys doing RPM measurements. At around 11:40-11:45 GMT, a guy came around, did a RPM measurement then started turning on a white little dial on the machine (not the hookup panel). Is that for friction? Was it winding down? A demo like this should be completely HANDS-OFF.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 15, 2009, 01:24:47 PM
The orbo is using very little energy from the battery to keep it at a constant RPM because of the frictionless magnetic bearings it is rotating on.  I speculate when a load is put on it, then it will drain the battery really fast.  The orbo could spin for a long time on a single battery without a load.

Here's a video of a levitating homopolar motor running for a long time with a single pulse of current, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hHfkK4iGBQ

Edit:  It appears the orbo is a homopolar motor rotating on frictionless magnetic bearing while the battery can send out a quick pulse when it falls below a certain RPM in order to maintain it's target RPM.  The duration between the pulses will be very long, and it will run for months maintaining a certain rpm with a single battery.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hekkmekk on December 15, 2009, 01:44:37 PM
This is a real shame!  >:(
What is the sense of spending time, effort and money for such a crap?

Do they really think we are _that_ dumb? They could have put an Diesel-Engine up there and say: "Look, it runs with nothing but this smelly liquid!" It would be the same...

This is absolutely unbelievable!!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 15, 2009, 01:51:42 PM
There are 4 live streams,

http://www.livestream.com/guide/search?count=&search_tag=steorn
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 15, 2009, 02:13:25 PM
http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2009, 02:13:38 PM
Looks like a pulse motor to me!
Just replace the battery with a cap and show it charging before we go any further.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Cloxxki on December 15, 2009, 02:25:59 PM
Sigh...
So, can they do any work with thise batteries during those months? Capacity of such batteries should be well established. You just can't lift a given weight up higher than X on a charge.
Just don't extract any work, and seasons pass during the experiment.

Hopefully there will be better stuff following soon :-(
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 15, 2009, 02:38:50 PM
There is no external load on the orbo.  Why?  Because the battery wouldn't be able to maintain the RPM for very long with a load on it.  How difficult would it be to hook a light bulb to the orbo to prove it is OU?  Not very difficult.

There is no external load on this device because it can not run with a load for very long.  However, it can run for a very long time without a load.  A demo running from a battery with no load on it showing OU.  I don't think so.

GB
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 15, 2009, 03:25:36 PM
Steorn should have used a small supercapacitor, even a 0.1 farad would do.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2009, 03:41:41 PM
Quote
Steorn should have used a small supercapacitor, even a 0.1 farad would do.
Yes, then provide some display showing the capacitor's voltage.

Pulse motor..... :(
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 15, 2009, 03:44:30 PM
Steorn should have used a small supercapacitor, even a 0.1 farad would do.

A super capacitor or a battery will have the same results because there is NO EXTERNAL LOAD on the orbo.  The orbo is spinning on FRICTIONLESS MAGNET BEARINGS, and the device only needs a quick pulse from the battery in order to maintain it's target RPM.  The duration between each pulse of current are very long, thus it can run for months on this battery or super capacitor without a load.

Give me a frictionless magnetic bearing, and I can replicate this orbo with a homopolar motor, such as the link to the levitating homopolar motor I posted earlier.

I really hope I am wrong about this and I am trying to keep an open mind.  The fact remains that this demo can be done without OU, and this bothers me.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 15, 2009, 03:46:07 PM
I wonder why they are using toroid em's? Kind of reminds me of gotoluc's Generator Coil Test 1.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gotoluc#p/a/u/1/ebybImidcFY

Instead of having a regular coil 90 degrees like gotoluc has it, they use a toroid at 90 degrees. Is this a lenz less setup?

I wonder if gotoluc can make a toroid and see what type of current he gets in his setup. Then put current through the toroid and disconnect power from the motor he's using in his setup to see if he gets rotation.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 15, 2009, 03:46:14 PM
It's not frictionless. It might run a month, two tops on that battery.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 15, 2009, 03:55:10 PM
It's not frictionless. It might run a month, two tops on that battery.

The complete system may not be 100% frictionless, but it is pretty close to 100%.  If it was 100%, then it wouldn't need the battery or capacitor.  The tiny bit of friction that is still present in the system allows it to run from a battery for months like you have said.

GB

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 15, 2009, 04:14:33 PM
Steorn should have used a small supercapacitor, even a 0.1 farad would do.

Why do you think the Orbo would spin with that?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2009, 04:30:25 PM
What does this device have to do with time variant magnetic materials?
Isn't that the principal it was supposed to operate on?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 15, 2009, 05:54:56 PM
What I am surprised about is how little coverage there is of this event, as compared to last time.  There are maybe 100 people worldwide watching the feed.  Almost no news articles about this in Google News.  A few things from ZDNet is all.

Even the Steorn forum is virtually dead about this, just a handful of people posting.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Thaelin on December 15, 2009, 05:57:54 PM
   Here we go again   :o
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 15, 2009, 06:05:48 PM
 :D :D Yahoo!!!  The world is saved!!!  :D

I... :-\ ... think ???

hmmm...
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: grayone on December 15, 2009, 06:18:15 PM
Doesn't this new orbo resemble a small Bedini wheel?  ::)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: grayone on December 15, 2009, 07:17:49 PM
I think it resembles a Bedini motor.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: powercat on December 15, 2009, 07:41:51 PM
This demonstration is supposed to convince the world that they have free energy, it's almost as good as watching paint dry.
      z z z z z z z     
cat   
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 15, 2009, 07:45:36 PM
@ grayone

I believe you are correct. There is only one difference I can see. It's that Steorn is using Toroid EM's. I'm thinking that based on what gotoluc showed in his video, the toroid in Steorn's setup minimizes lenz law. Steorn then uses a normal pick-up coil to recharge the batteries.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Topguner on December 15, 2009, 08:46:02 PM
It's not frictionless. It might run a month, two tops on that battery.

If it is putting out enough power to recharge the battery then wouldn't it run indefinitely?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 15, 2009, 08:49:35 PM
Once again, it is nothing but a publicity trick. If they cant close loop it with a cap then they have nothing.
It is sad to say the least they continue to get away with this.
It would have been nice to have some meters and tourque devices....it gets down to power in and power out.
Mark
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: markdansie on December 15, 2009, 08:59:14 PM
This device could run for months on battery power, if they really had something they would use a cap and close loop it. Sadly , just another publicity stunt.
No one has ever published a peer review paper on the input and output of any of their devices.
It have never been independently tested and peer reviewed in other words. Speaking of works the accademics use the word appears rather than any definitive language. When you test something it either does or does not. Its a bit like binary logic. Greay areas still have results without explanation.
The lack of interest this time is they have no credability, and it appears they will have none at all after this little stunt.
After millions of $ in investors money this is all they have to show. Sad
Mark
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mscoffman on December 15, 2009, 09:00:22 PM

This looks like a Bedini pulse motor on toroids.  :)
Battery must mean 10Kma hours. Seems like a well
designed pulse motor should be able to quite a while
on a single "D" battery. Makes me wonder if Steorn
doesn't read overunity.com

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Cloxxki on December 15, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
If it's such a low-friction no-work spinning, no wonder really that it screeched to a halt when a couple of TV cam lights were pointed at it at a previous launch. Tight tolerances. So now, a controlled lab showing. The fact that it runs down is a btter disappointment. At least use 1 battery to charge multiple others to full capacity or something.

Really makes you wonder what their motive is. To scam the world and then come forward with it? Get money from someone, for nothing? Or just wild ignorance and vlind belief?
Still hoping there will be more...
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 15, 2009, 10:02:07 PM
It's either what they say it is, or they want to be sued into the ground by their investors. It's one or the other. Unless the investor contract is somehow worded so that they cannot sue, which is also pretty much impossible.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 15, 2009, 10:07:10 PM
Steorn claims it also keeps the battery charged. If you look at the diagram it shows the pickup coils that goes to a diode, which charges the battery. So there's more than just friction, due to the pickup coils, but that's recycling the energy.

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/ (http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 16, 2009, 12:01:39 AM
Hi,

Here are  2 Youtube  Clips speeded up from the  Livecam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cE_1n_5Xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8JFaA4Xgk

Looks really like a Bedini-Adams style Pulse motor.


Okay, if they would drive it just with supercaps,
I would be really saying that they have the breakthrough...

but with a 10.000 mAh D-cell battery and with
magnetic bearings, this thing will
just rotate for more than a year, until the battery will be drained...

I would really like to see scope shots of the
input and output currents and voltages
to see their claims validated..


In their other Demo Video with the Magnet Measurement-device one could only
see always very symmetrical force curves plotted on their screen
when they measured the attraction and repelling forces
of their magnets..


So I wonder, where the difference forces are, if these are
very symmetrical, cause it could only work,
when there would be very asymmetrical forces, so a positive difference
force would be needed there to propell something..
but all their curves they have shown in the video look very symmetrical.


Well, let´s just wait, until they will sell their
Online Developer Kits.

At least here you can see the inner setup of their  Orbo rig:

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/

Also available as PDF there.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 16, 2009, 12:27:22 AM
My memory is probably faulty.... so here it goes....

I remember seeing a graph of the Steorn setup different than the 'new' video from the engineers. For some reason the graph I remember seeing resembled the one that gotoluc showed on his Generator Coil Test 1 video.

Maybe it was a PDF file or something. I'm probably wrong, but I just can't seem to get that picture out of my head. I think the engineer video is showing a graph of a different setup.

Oh well... At least I said something. Maybe it will stop bugging me.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 16, 2009, 12:42:36 AM
Does Steorn say, that there must be a special magnet pole
combination or coil-magnet configuration to achieve the effect of greater output than input ?

What are their current claims for this ?

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 16, 2009, 12:55:10 AM
Quote
Any chance those are laptop battery packs acting as the bases for the three Orbos?

Ha! Ha!  I collect my Brownie Points!

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 16, 2009, 12:59:19 AM
@hartiberlin

 I did see something about the magnetic field configuration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=K2eL-NlMtSI&feature=related

Here someone replicated the Steorn Toy, but called it the "90 Degree Magnet Rule".

To me it looks like a gate.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 01:09:31 AM
Anything change? Looks like it's still spinning at least.  ;)

The problem here is that Steorn is still being very secretive. I here some people, insiders, have proof. We'll have to see.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 16, 2009, 01:53:06 AM
Is it running anything? Anything at all?

Not even an LED!?!

Man! Pirate's Earthbattery does better than this.

Today was the day? Right!?

Was the real demonstration postponed again?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 16, 2009, 02:01:01 AM
Steorn claims it also keeps the battery charged. If you look at the diagram it shows the pickup coils that goes to a diode, which charges the battery. So there's more than just friction, due to the pickup coils, but that's recycling the energy.

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/ (http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/)

All of that other stuff on the device is more than likely a diversion and is not necessary for it to spin like it is.  They say the battery is re-charging without offering any proof.

I'm almost sure if the battery and all input connections were cut that it would spin for a long time before coming to a halt.  There is probably no current flowing through those coils to recharge the battery.

They have the entire orbo caged in plexiglas to minimize outside interferences such as air friction and pressure from people entering and exiting the building.  The entire design is based on minimizing friction and is only given a pulse of current from time to time with the battery to maintain it's RPM.

1)  Powered by a battery instead of a cap
2)  Caged in Plexiglas
3)  No External load
4)  No measurements showing the battery is being charged.
5)  More than likely has a near frictionless bearing.
6)  All they need are a few new gullible investors from this demo to pay off their previous and current investors to keep everyone happy so they can continue the cycle all over again.
7)  If they fail to obtain new investors, then this will more than likely end up in court.
8.)  A public failure like this will more than likely make any legit device in the future not to get the support it needs from the public.
9)  The powers that be, could be the cause and allowing this public failure to happen to limit public research, interest, and efforts in free alternative energy so they can stay in power.  This demo is giving us a bad reputation, which is their goal.  They know we are getting close, and this could be a big strike against us.

I'm not impressed and I have very low standards.  I want this orbo to be the real thing just like the rest of you, but I am really disappointed in this demo. :(

Maybe tomorrow will be a different presentation to convince me otherwise.  I want to be wrong, I really do. 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 16, 2009, 02:11:54 AM
To make this demo real all that they would have to do is power the motor with a 50,000 uF capacitor.  Checking the voltage on the cap once per hour would tell you instantly if this was real or not.

It's a total scam to use a battery that can power the device for perhaps a few months.

The cap would go down in voltage or after a very long time the battery would discharge.

It's a complete farce but perhaps they don't care.  Like barnacles in the ocean they know that some people will be impressed and might even invest.  It's just a numbers game like putting an ad on TV.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 16, 2009, 02:21:38 AM
and then again I repeat myself, you have to convert one form of energy into another to do work and each time you convert energy into another you lose efficiency in each transaction... Period! 8)

does anybody think they can break facts with their bare mind, you will hurt your head if you think you can. it is like somebody violently banging their head against an unbreakable wall for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 16, 2009, 03:08:04 AM
Anything change? Looks like it's still spinning at least.  ;)

The problem here is that Steorn is still being very secretive. I here some people, insiders, have proof. We'll have to see.

You seriously cannot be so gullible as to think this.  Steorn is being very open with the aspects of the device that do not prove OU (the battery powers the low friction device).  And they are being very secretive with the stuff that would actually prove OU (the charging of the battery).   Why do you think this is?  Isn't the point of the demo to show OU?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 16, 2009, 03:59:01 AM
I think they have it, but this is not it!
Maybe their investors are energy people that pay to NOT release the real information.

Why don't they just show the K-toy build so everyone could replicate that?
It would be a better place to start than where we are at now.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 16, 2009, 04:25:35 AM
These are the batteries they used.
I think one of these, in my giant wall clock, would run about 5 years!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 04:51:33 AM
Is it just me, or are they over doing it with all the thick acrylic? ..maybe to keep the lights from effecting it?

Bleh, is this another Rube Goldberg attempt at overunity?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 05:16:01 AM
These are the batteries they used.
I think one of these, in my giant wall clock, would run about 5 years!

That battery cannot keep that orbo going more than 2 months. Probably more like 1 month.

Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 16, 2009, 06:20:09 AM
Quote
That battery cannot keep that orbo going more than 2 months. Probably more like 1 month.

The real issue here Paul is not to speculate about the number of months, it's to remember that you told everyone to be sure to start recording the Steorn live feeds because something big was about to happen.

Well, it didn't happen and Sean was not kidnapped by the MIB.

I can assure you that you can continue testing supercapacitors without any government agents watching over you.  You can always burn CDs and give them to your friends and stay underground if you feel a compelling need.  Sneakernet still works pretty well and you can always wear some Groucho Marx glasses to hide your Sneakernet packets.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: protein_man on December 16, 2009, 10:32:25 AM
Steorn, why use a rechargeable D-cell battery, why not use a aaa cell or aa? They are all 1.2 volt battery's, a 900 mah aaa battery would be more believable for the duration of this demo.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: allcanadian on December 16, 2009, 12:15:06 PM
@onthecuttingedge2005
Quote:
"and then again I repeat myself, you have to convert one form of energy into another to do work and each time you convert energy into another you lose efficiency in each transaction... Period!  does anybody think they can break facts with their bare mind, you will hurt your head if you think you can. it is like somebody violently banging their head against an unbreakable wall for no apparent reason."

Your reasoning is flawed on various levels, you make the assumption that the system must lose energy because it is a closed system when of course this is simply not the case. Quantum mechanics wave/particle theory dictates motion is inherent in all matter as absorbtion/emission therefore there are no closed systems. As well you have assumed that energy lost in conversion cannot be compensated for by energy gains from external sources due to tha fact that conversion is in itself a disturbance of ambient conditions. Consider why a signal can be heard on almost every frequency from a simple crysatal radio, the static noise between man-made stations is in fact a signal and it constitutes energy recieved from an external source. This signal was "converted" and losses were incurred yet the signal remains and no energy was required by the operator to perform work on the speaker coil. It would seem a simple crystal radio  contradicts your "theory" that a conversion process must always imply losses in an absolute sense.

@protein_man
Quote:
"Steorn, why use a rechargeable D-cell battery, why not use a aaa cell or aa? They are all 1.2 volt battery's, a 900 mah aaa battery would be more believable for the duration of this demo."
The real issue is one of perception, you may think any battery can be slapped on this motor for the same reason milehigh believes any old capacitor could be used, while others believe they should just throw in a load of some sort. All these views make no consideration for the properties or qualities of the components in relation to the operation of the circuit, does it seem reasonable that we can just throw in any old components and expect the circuit to operate in exactly the same way? If you look at the history of the people who supposedly had free energy devices you will find all of them, 1)were observant of everything around them--every little detail, 2)meticulous in the craftmanship of their devices, 3)had an insatiable curiosity. The devil is in the details:)
Regards
AC
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 16, 2009, 02:15:00 PM
All I know is that they completed the big hooha testing with all the scientific bigshot experts. As reported here on Steorn's own website:

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/14683/randd/steorns-free-energy-device-goes-on-display

Right there it says in black and white:

'In fact, following an invitation to the science community to examine the technology, an international panel of 22 experts, headed by Ian McDonald, professor of electrical engineering at University of Alberta, Canada, said that demonstrations “have not shown the production of energy”.
"The unanimous verdict of the jury is that Steorn's attempts to demonstrate the claim have not shown the production of energy. The jury is therefore ceasing work," said McDonald in an online post in June 2009."'

So the whole show is over. What the heck are these guys doing this for anyway?
What a bunch of fools. I really feel sorry for those who actually invested money in their antics.

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 02:46:42 PM
Someone in the inner Steorn circle emailed me the reason why Steorn has not made this demonstration obvious over-unity. I don't have the right to post this information, I promised, but at least wanted to write this  much.  :( I don't know if I buy the reason, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 05:19:00 PM
Someone took a photo of the guys tachometer readings.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 05:29:24 PM
See the attached images. Here's what I can see,

First column:
14?2   ?
1201
1190 or 1490   ??
1232
.
.
.

Second column:
1235? ???
1624??? or 624???
?
447?
789? or 489?
423
4?4 (464?)
455
462?
712?
.
.
.

Third column:
?
6??
732?
?
428? 928?
987
1???
?
?
43?   ?
983?
771?
925?
?

Fourth column:
456?
59?   ??
?


Attached are two images, the same, except one is sharpened.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 05:37:55 PM
Some of the readings are clear, so you can get the gist that the rpm's fluctuate up & down a lot. That is extremely unusual, as that should not happen if it was just a battery & conventional electric motor.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 16, 2009, 06:19:05 PM
Hmmm....... I just realized this may be working on a totally different principal than a pulse motor.
They are using toroidal coils!
My theory is that the rotor is attracted to the core of the toroidal coils. Then they saturate the core with the windings to eliminate or reduce the attraction, and the rotor magnets are free leave with less energy than they gained during the attraction.
Like the magnetic amplifier principal.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 16, 2009, 06:22:37 PM
Hmmm....... I just realized this may be working on a totally different principal than a pulse motor.
They are using toroidal coils!
My theory is that the rotor is attracted to the core of the toroidal coils. Then they saturate the core with the windings to eliminate or reduce the attraction, and the rotor magnets are free leave with less energy than they gained during the attraction.
Like the magnetic amplifier principal.

Any thoughts?

A lot of my magnetic designs are based on the premise of changing the cores effective permeability.  :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 16, 2009, 11:21:13 PM
@hartiberlin

 I did see something about the magnetic field configuration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=K2eL-NlMtSI&feature=related

Here someone replicated the Steorn Toy, but called it the "90 Degree Magnet Rule".

To me it looks like a gate.

Hmm,
but that is not an official Steorn movie, but only a tinkerer, who
thinks that it is this effect.
Steorn to my knowledge has not yet explained,
where the additional magnetic energy comes from or
how they extract it.
They only showed these 2 new videos,
where one could see, that it is a pulse-motor with some
pickup generator coils, but they have not yet explained,
how exactly they generate more energy via the pickup coils,
than they input via the motor coils.

Or did they already state that somehow ?

I really would love to see the input current into the motor
coils on a few scopeshots on a calibrated shunt and scope and
the output voltages and currents
of the pickup coils.
Then one could really say, what is going on in this motor/generator.

The way they show it now is only a big publicity stunt with no real data..

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 16, 2009, 11:42:40 PM
I had a closer look to the video and
saw this Roth Elektronik Germany board RE901.

Here they are using this circuit PCB board  for their circuit:

http://ch.farnell.com/roth-elektronik/re901/laborkarte-smd-sot-23-multi/dp/1172113


http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13633.pdf

It is a multisolution SMD pcb board, which can hold several SMD devices.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 16, 2009, 11:51:37 PM
Hmmm....... I just realized this may be working on a totally different principal than a pulse motor.
They are using toroidal coils!
My theory is that the rotor is attracted to the core of the toroidal coils. Then they saturate the core with the windings to eliminate or reduce the attraction, and the rotor magnets are free leave with less energy than they gained during the attraction.
Like the magnetic amplifier principal.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting observation. That may be easy to test.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 17, 2009, 12:30:47 AM
I had another closer look in fullcreen to this video of Steorn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JikYfmEdF8

They have used really Toroidal-Ferrite coils  as Motor-Drive coils.
So as there are magnets inside the rotor,
the rotor is accelerated without any current input into the
direction of the ferrite toroid coils.

Then when the magnets arrive exactly over the toroidal ferrite core coils,
these coils are pulsed by a Reed Switch from the battery,
see:

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/
Part Number 23

and then repelled, so the rotor can rotate on.

One interesting fact here is, that these toroidal ferrite core coils
normally have their magnet fields completely inside the ferrite core
and only leakage flux is coming out of them..
so the rotor will probably have not much torque,
cause this will not repell strongly the rotor magnets.

Also the mechanical Reed switching of the input current will
probably wear down the Reed Switch pretty fast, as the BACKEMF
of the toroidal coils
also goes through the Reed Switch and will
spark a bit inside the Reed Switch.
Also the rotation RPM is thus not very fast, because the mechanical Reed Switch
could probably switch not faster than about 30 to 50 Hz or so...

So the Motor part is not very powerful in torque and not very durable
cause the Reed switch will wear out pretty soon.

On this  Roth Elektronik RE901 PCB board there seems to be
soldered also only a SMD diode,
cause only 2 connections are used.

It seems to be only the blocking diode,so that
the current from the battery will not flow through the
pickup coils, but this diode will only conduct during the
induction spike of the pickup coils recharging the Ansman 10.000 mAh
NiMh accumulator battery.


So all in all it is a pretty easy to build pulse motor
and should be easy to replicate and measure the
input and output currents.

The only effect I could see is, that they use the toroidal ferrite core
coils for the driver part, which could behave stangely,
cause the magnet will also induce current into them,
when they go by and this could reduce the input current...

But how much could only be measured via a scope on a shunt
resistor.

Gruss, Stefan.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 17, 2009, 02:16:56 AM
@all

I just did a small test. Not with a toroid but very similar. I took three neo magnets (1/4 inch diameter by 3 inches in length) and three 1/2 inch ball bearings. I then made a triangle with them making sure the poles all attracted. This cancelled the magnetic field (detected by the outside) of the neo magnets. Once the triangle was broken the field came back.

[Quick note... at the junction between the neos and the bearings due to size differences there was a small attraction to the neo by the iron nail I used to the sharp edge of the neo. Yeah, not quite a toroid but you get the point.]

I think this may be what they are doing with the toroids. With no current going to the toroid, the magnets on the rotor attract to the toroid. When the toroid is powered the rotor magnets are no longer attracted.

Does anyone have a toroid to test with? I may have something, an iron pipe that I could cut, but I'm going to have to get some higher gauge wire(36 awg will break on me).

EDIT: Just grabbed a magnet to see if it would attract to the steel ball bearings on the triangle. Yes, it still attracts. I'm going to try making a toroid coil tomorrow to see if this theory pans out.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 17, 2009, 02:53:54 AM
Now for the arrangement of the double rows of rotor magnets.
There are two rotors and each rotor has two rows of magnets.

My opinion would be that it would be the most effective if the top row of each rotor would be "N" out and the bottom row would be "S" out.
This would yield the most draw to the toroidal core material. (probably ferrite with low saturation)

The coil should cause the field in the toroid to be in a direction where after the magnets pass, the field is in the direction that would push on each of the passing magnets.
It would not actually be pushing but the opposing direction would yield the greatest rejection of any attraction to the passing magnet.

I guess it all seems fairly clear how it should actually work. (and be OU?)

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 17, 2009, 03:25:04 AM
Looks like Steorn put out a new learning module that is very close to the working concept!

http://www.steorn.com/skdb/e-learning/flash-promo/3.1/index.html
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 17, 2009, 04:08:29 AM
Another thing I just realized, when again looking at the video is,
that the generator magnets are located  90 degrees out of phase versus the motor magnets
inside the rotor.

So this makes sure, that motor and generator pulses are not occuring at the same
time but are occurring after each other in time.

So by putting a 1 Ohm shunt resistor onto the plus pole of the battery, it should
be visible on a scope , if the average current out of the battery is positive or negative
over one cycle...
If it will be negative, then surely this Orbo is overunity.

If the integration area is positive over one cycle then the Orbo is underunity.
(in this case heating losses I^2xR of the coils neglected..)
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 17, 2009, 05:18:19 AM
Looks like Steorn put out a new learning module that is very close to the working concept!

http://www.steorn.com/skdb/e-learning/flash-promo/3.1/index.html

Lumen, below is what the time variant magnetic material may be based on.

The Wiegand effect is a macroscopic extension of the Barkhausen effect as the special treatment of the Wiegand wire causes the wire to act macroscopically as a single large magnetic domain.  The small high-coercivity domains in the Wiegand wire outer shell switch in an avalanche, generating the Wiegand effect's rapid magnetic field change.

Because the voltage induced by a changing magnetic field is proportional to the rate of change of the field, a Wiegand-wire core can increase the output voltage by several orders of magnitude as compared to a similar coil with a non-Wiegand core. Once the Wiegand wire has flipped magnetization, it will retain that magnetization until flipped in the other direction.  It will not flip until an opposite polarity in the magnetic field reaches a certain threshold.

I've posted this information in various threads before this, but it's always ignored.  You're going to need more than just a toroid core.  You will need a Wiegand-wire core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiegand_effect

GB
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 05:42:08 AM
Great, now someone should build this. Although I would not recommend saturating the core.

I've seen several people who've had similar cop>1 designs based on the same method, but I don't recall their names and don't have the url's. Maybe someone knows.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 17, 2009, 05:50:33 AM
I looked at about 1/2 of the module and it contains just basic Electronics 101 stuff about magnetism.  I'm underwhelmed.

Quote
I've seen several people who've had similar cop>1 designs based on the same method, but I don't recall their names and don't have the url's. Maybe someone knows.

My eyes are glazing over.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 17, 2009, 06:08:57 AM

MileHigh is now added to the iggy bin for trolling

Anyone who doesn't think COP>1 is possible, is a troll on this forum.  "Zero Stars", below his name.  Go join the Physics Forum, they will welcome you with open arms.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 06:34:08 AM
MileHigh is now added to the iggy bin for trolling

Anyone who doesn't think COP>1 is possible, is a troll on this forum.  "Zero Stars", below his name.  Go join the Physics Forum where you are welcomed.

Welcome aboard to the MH ignore list. Soon he'll be talking to himself, lol.

Hey, not to get off topic to the Steorn replication, but the Thane Heins "Bi-Toroid Transformer" seems to use the same effect, except in a solid-state design. I'm still trying to find the other inventors using the same effect. I vaguely recall his accent, perhaps Russian.

Here's an example of the Thane Heins "Bi-Toroid Transformer",

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cka7qb0zoc8

Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 17, 2009, 06:57:50 AM
Just swap the battery for a 25,000 uF capacitor and we will see who was right and who was glazed.

Paul, just use your "contacts" to get them to switch the battery for a capacitor, something that any person with the most basic understanding of energy and electronics would want to see.

MileHigh

PS:  Since Sean is claiming three times more energy out than in, he can put a resistor in parallel with the capacitor.  The energy return would burn through the resistor and also keep the capacitor charged to feed the motor.

So that's the real proof of the claim:  A capacitor in parallel with a resistor running the motor.  Everything else is bullshit - that's what they have to demo.  But that won't happen - it's just a motor powered by a battery and just a bare naked capacitor without a "bonus energy sucking" resistor would show decreasing voltage.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 07:03:23 AM
Here's an interesting statement,

Comment #23:
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/16/steorns-orbo-free-en.html#comment-667190 (http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/16/steorns-orbo-free-en.html#comment-667190)

Quote, "Saw it today in the docklands, spoke to one of the guys, said that in Jan they're going to be hooking up all the equipment, oscilloscopes, amp meters etc, without those aforementioned devices it's just a nice looking display with a nice looking girl watching over it!"

Sounds like Steorn is going to hook up meters & such to the Orbo in January.  ;D   If true, then it's all going as planned.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: exnihiloest on December 17, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
MileHigh is now added to the iggy bin for trolling

Anyone who doesn't think COP>1 is possible, is a troll on this forum.  "Zero Stars", below his name.  Go join the Physics Forum, they will welcome you with open arms.

No sens.
This forum is not a mosque "muslims, welcome, atheists, out!"
It is a forum for "Free Energy Alternative", not a sect.

"Free Energy Alternative" does not mean COP>1. For example free energy could tape a hidden source.
And in any case, as this forum is regularly refering to conventional science and science is made by "not believers in COP>1" since the 19th century, skeptics are welcome too.

The Steorn show does not prove any thing. A D battery can supply power for weeks to a motor with low friction.
For storing and restoring energy on cycles as short as the time for a motor turn, a simple capacitor of some thousands of µF should be enough!
As we were all expecting for a full magnet motor, Steorn is always disappointing anybody except believers without critical thinking.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: gravityblock on December 17, 2009, 12:21:22 PM
exnihiloest,

There is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism, but condemnation before investigation is folly (that makes no sense).  At this moment, I believe the orbo is a fake, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated along with all other COP>1 claims.  In reference to those other claims in post #109, they were condemned by him in post #110 prior to any investigation because it was based on "electromagnetism 101".

Always a good possibility for the powers that be to have forced Steorn to demo a device that doesn't convince anyone of OU.  The way it was demoed makes no sense either.  Something is not right.

GB   
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 17, 2009, 03:09:01 PM
I think all you need to do is just stop for a second and think really hard, what principal makes this device operate.
If you do this, you will see the exact reason this device is OU.
No other device uses this exact effect!
Think of the field going through the toroidal core by passing the two magnets along the upper and lower quadrants of the core.
AND when they reach the center point!

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: k4zep on December 17, 2009, 03:29:36 PM
Hi All,

What an expensive work of art.  Nice machine work!  Looks to me like a Adams motor/generator with a torroidal twist. First remember that a 10Ah battery can power a low friction rotor for months if not years! Now to get to the "Guts" question.

Does it actually work as an excess energy producing device?

The most simple way to "prove" this technology is to GET RID OF THE BATTERY and run on a low impedance/low leakage Super Cap. At the COP claimed it would have no problem increasing the charge/voltage on the Cap. over time. If run away in unit is feared, use 1.5V zener of adequate wattage across Cap. to stabilize unit.  IF OU, voltage in Cap. will increase  from initial charge setting/rpm level  to zener limit along with an increase in RPM, then stabilization. 

Spin it up to speed with 1.25 V energy source and Cap. in parallel, let it stabilize (time?).  Monitor Cap. voltage with 20 Meg input, 4 1/2 digit  DVM. (if you are curious as I am, I assume it can power 20 meg load of meter and replace any leakage in the Cap.!) REMOVE energy SOURCE. Run on CAP only.  It either works or it doesn't!.....Until they remove ANY charge producing (Primary or secondary battery/device) except the motor/generator, I will be skeptical of this work of art.  I am a believer......just not in this technology as demonstrated. 

My gut feeling is you will never see a Cap. replace that battery.

My name is Ben, been there done that, happy holidays to all. 
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 04:18:14 PM
I think all you need to do is just stop for a second and think really hard, what principal makes this device operate.
If you do this, you will see the exact reason this device is OU.
No other device uses this exact effect!
Think of the field going through the toroidal core by passing the two magnets along the upper and lower quadrants of the core.
AND when they reach the center point!

Hi,

If you are saying no other device design uses the effect found in the Steorn Orbo then IMO that's incorrect. Going back years ago, all on my own I came up with designs that use that effect. Along the way I've seen numerous other inventors that have also used that effect. On paper it works out great, so it's definitely worth trying.

Paul
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 04:34:09 PM

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/?p=163 (http://www.freeenergytimes.com/?p=163)

"Steorn have promised that in January there will be live validation and replication sessions which should provide help shed light on these issues."

Also supposedly Steorn said they're going to put all kinds of meters on the Orbo in January. Looks like January is going to be a great month!  ;D
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 17, 2009, 04:46:55 PM
"Steorn have promised that in January there will be live validation and replication sessions which should provide help shed light on these issues."

 >:(
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: exnihiloest on December 17, 2009, 05:59:18 PM
exnihiloest,

There is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism, but condemnation before investigation is folly (that makes no sense).
...

I agree, gravityblock.
Nevertheless the burden of proof is not on the side of the investigation. If evidence is not provided by the claimant, the investigation need not even be made. An electric motor running with a battery is not a sign and even less an evidence of COP>1.

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 17, 2009, 06:28:58 PM
I look at it just like I looked at the Linnard Griffin Electrolysis Process. All my experimentation was to understand the process and then try to find evidence of overunity. Sadly, the unit was not able to run itself and slowly consumed the electrolyte and sacrificial metals. What would have been the sense of claiming overunity when the evidence showed otherwise?

I look at Steorn process the same way. So far not a single demonstration has shown overunity. I don't understand this last one at all. Why do it if you don't plan on showing overunity? It is a waste of time. Now they are delaying AGAIN until next month. This is ridiculous!

Delay...excuse...delay...excuse...delay...excuse... the pattern continues.

Please! If you have overunity, then show it already. Dump the battery and show something credible.

Does that make me evil? Unreasonable? Close-minded? Of course not.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 17, 2009, 06:38:20 PM
Both of Steorn cameras now have audio! Looks like Steorn is slowly ramping it up. We know from their ads they they want to rub it in to the closed minded skeptics. Maybe they want more to put their foot in their mouths.  ;)

At this moment the Steorn guy is explaining something to people.
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: markdansie on December 17, 2009, 08:52:44 PM
Both of Steorn cameras now have audio! Looks like Steorn is slowly ramping it up. We know from their ads they they want to rub it in to the closed minded skeptics. Maybe they want more to put their foot in their mouths.  ;)

At this moment the Steorn guy is explaining something to people.
Perhaps he is explaining why the device has stopped many times and how to do quicker battery changes during the black screen periods. perhaps he is being managed by our other friend (The lawrence lead out device). Lots of promisies.
You have to ask why they even bothered with this demo until they do have meters and qualified people conducting the tests. Why the battery remains there eill always be a huge question mark.
Kind Regards
mark
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 17, 2009, 11:43:31 PM
I suppose they should roll out this new technology at a rate to prevent any further sliding of current economies.
I mean, keeping the long term skeptics should provide a cushion that will prevent total chaos and slow the dumping of current technology during the build up.


Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 17, 2009, 11:49:17 PM
I suppose they should roll out this new technology at a rate to prevent any further sliding of current economies.
I mean, keeping the long term skeptics should provide a cushion that will prevent total chaos and slow the dumping of current technology during the build up.

Let me see.  So the fact that the technology is unconvincing is now evidence that it's real, right?  Please.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: happyfunball on December 18, 2009, 12:18:15 AM
I suppose they should roll out this new technology at a rate to prevent any further sliding of current economies.
I mean, keeping the long term skeptics should provide a cushion that will prevent total chaos and slow the dumping of current technology during the build up.

The Economist ad/ challenge came out Dec 2006. It's been three years. Do I hear four?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 18, 2009, 01:01:00 AM
Let me see.  So the fact that the technology is unconvincing is now evidence that it's real, right?  Please.

So your not convinced it's a real OU device?
Well I suppose you might as well go out and buy that new gas guzzling truck you wanted, instead of hanging out in here where nothing is useful.

I mean, what the heck, why waste time looking at fake OU stuff just to save a few cents worth of oil, the good old stuff is everywhere!
BUY BUY BUY!
 :o
 
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Yucca on December 18, 2009, 01:11:00 AM
epic fail!

D cell. LOL!

As others have said, put a cap on it.

BLARNEY!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 18, 2009, 02:26:51 AM
This is the only private video I could find on
youtube today, that a visitor has filmed about the Steorn Orbo...

But only taped via a mobile phone probably and very bad and too shacky...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdb1U7sGyi8

I wonder, why no visitors have put a detailed youtube video yet up,
where one could see more details, e.g.from the reed relay switch, etc...?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: happyfunball on December 18, 2009, 02:38:51 AM
This is the only private video I could find on
youtube today, that a visitor has filmed about the Steorn Orbo...

But only taped via a mobile phone probably and very bad and too shacky...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdb1U7sGyi8

I wonder, why no visitors have put a detailed youtube video yet up,
where one could see more details, e.g.from the reed relay switch, etc...?

Thanks, was wondering what the sign said. So, there you have it in writing for all to see. They are either blatant liars or they have something.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 18, 2009, 05:14:05 AM
Somewhere I read an astute comment by someone about the new problem the Steorn system will create - the overheating of the planet.  Shucks, we forgot about the down side of the Orbos spreading like wildfire.   It's wildfire.  Things will get "explodey."

Forget about the carbon menace overheating the planet, it's the Orbo menace that we will be dealing with in 10 years.

MileHigh

P.S.:  Sean McCarthy is the new bogeyman!   lol
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 18, 2009, 05:32:06 AM
Quote
Somewhere I read an astute comment by someone about the new problem the Steorn system will create - the overheating of the planet.

I understand that heat will radiate out into space providing it's not held in by greenhouse gases.

What about the new solar project where they collect solar radiation from space and beam it down to earth?
How well you think that's going to work when we double the solar footprint of earth?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 18, 2009, 05:41:06 AM
Lumen:

Quote
How well you think that's going to work when we double the solar footprint of earth?

You think big.  That's an extra 174,000 terrawatts.

We may have to set up some sort of giant Orbo-powered heat pump with COP > 4 to radiate the extra heat into space.  Orbos cooling Orbos, so to speak.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 18, 2009, 06:01:24 AM
Maybe just convert the excess heat to electricity and feed it back into an Orbo running in reverse.
The Orbo running in reverse would just absorb energy and make it vanish!

 :o
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 18, 2009, 03:15:06 PM
Some new Steorn videos:

Someone's personal video footage of the Orbo demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdb1U7sGyi8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdb1U7sGyi8)

Steorn placed their ad on TV. Skip to 49 seconds into video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcNwc-GhzIs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcNwc-GhzIs)

Speedup Steorn Orbo demo live camera feed 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8JFaA4Xgk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8JFaA4Xgk)

A cartoon, "Sean McCarthy vs. Michio Kaku"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raWuK6OmpTs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raWuK6OmpTs)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hekkmekk on December 18, 2009, 07:57:50 PM
Orbo Technology Update

Steorn invites you to visit www.steorn.com (http://www.steorn.com) for the first in a series of live talks and experiments regarding Orbo Technology.


Subject: Introduction to an Orbo Electromagnetic Interaction - Part 1

When: Saturday 19th December 2009

Time: 17:00 GMT

Where: www.steorn.com - Live Stream View 1

Or

In person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre,
Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland.

Directions: http://www.steorn.com/demo/  (http://www.steorn.com/demo/)


Description:

Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, will discuss and demonstrate cancelling Back EMF in Orbo electromagnetic interactions.

Who should attend:

Anyone interested in understanding Orbo Technology or taking up an Orbo Technology Developer License on 1st February 2010.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: powercat on December 18, 2009, 08:07:03 PM
The Cry Of The Snake-Owl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iyyh-hXox0
cat
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 18, 2009, 09:04:37 PM
"Steorn just posted an announcement that tomorrow, Dec 19th, CEO Sean McCarthy will give a talk titled “Introduction to an Orbo Electromagnetic Interaction, Part 1″. The talk will be at 5:00 p.m. GMT at the Waterways Visitors Centre where the demonstration is taking place. There will also be a live video stream of the talk available via the Steorn web site."
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Earl on December 18, 2009, 10:01:05 PM
[snip]
Harti,
your analysis is only partially correct.  Comments in-line.


Quote
They have used really Toroidal-Ferrite coils  as Motor-Drive coils.
So as there are magnets inside the rotor,
the rotor is accelerated without any current input into the
direction of the ferrite toroid coils.
Yes because the toroid core is made of magnetic material.

Quote
Then when the magnets arrive exactly over the toroidal ferrite core coils,
these coils are pulsed by a Reed Switch from the battery,
see:

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/
Part Number 23

and then repelled, so the rotor can rotate on.

No, the rotor magnets are NOT repelled.

Quote
One interesting fact here is, that these toroidal ferrite core coils
normally have their magnet fields completely inside the ferrite core
and only leakage flux is coming out of them..
so the rotor will probably have not much torque,
cause this will not repel strongly the rotor magnets.

The rotor magnets are neither strongly nor weakly repelled;
they only continue coasting by without being attracted back
in the direction of the torrid core.  The pulse into the toroid
coil has NO effect on the rotor magnets, neither attraction
nor repulsion.

Your analysis is correct until the rotor magnet reaches the
toroid coil.  At this point a pulse into the toroid coil saturates
the toroid core since it exceeds a certain ampere-turns
rating for that particular core material and size.  When the
toroid magnetic core saturates, it becomes what I call
"synthetic air" as all its magnetic properties disappear.
Since the rotor magnet is not attracted to "synthetic air"
it continues to rotate with no braking.  The magnetic leakage
from the now air-cored toroid is small.
Once the rotor magnet is far enough away from the toroid,
the pulse is stopped and the toroid core returns to being
magnetic material.

In my opinion, this demo is completely different from all
else Stoern has done until now.

In effect, this motor is alchemy.  Instead of turning lead into
gold, it turns magnetic material into air.


Quote
[snip]
So all in all it is a pretty easy to build pulse motor
and should be easy to replicate and measure the
input and output currents.

It should be very easy to replicate this motor, add
generator coils, use optosensors for timing and then
measure input to output power.  No reed relays
necessary.

I do not think that Stoern is using generator coils in
this demo.  This demo is interesting due to the non
traditional use of magnetic core saturation, but it
shows absolutely nothing about under or over unity.


Quote
[snip]

Gruss, Stefan.

Regards, Earl
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 18, 2009, 10:33:26 PM
All,

Some good pictures here:

http://www.sbutler.ie/page/Image-Gallery.aspx

Alex.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 19, 2009, 12:45:32 AM
One product: Steorn-O, the portable fire!

Hopefully they won't be trying to 'charge' a battery - otherwise We'll have to forward them some of our discussions about the accuracy of measured energy in one.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 06:35:53 AM
Here's a short video that shows underneath the Orbo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzbzH3dCBlo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzbzH3dCBlo)

11.5 hours till the Steorn talks.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: markdansie on December 19, 2009, 06:53:36 AM
I am sure millions around the world are counting the seconds to the speach. But then perhaps not. I would be more interested in seeing him arrested or being handed a summons live for ripping all those people of. However their appears as usual to be a small band of die hard believers, the type that hung onto the Mylow fairytale till the very end.
However I support free speach and peoples right to have faith, just can not see why I would bother watching a spin doctor making more hollow promises.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hakware on December 19, 2009, 08:47:30 AM
please.. I have a clock on my wall that runs for 2 years on a C cell. I suppose its OU.

Can i have some money to further my apparent over unity clock?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 19, 2009, 04:08:37 PM
...
Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, will discuss and demonstrate cancelling Back EMF in Orbo electromagnetic interactions.
...

The back emf is not the point for overunity. Cancelling Back EMF is easy. It is just recovering the energy stored in the magnetic field. A simple electronics design can recover more than 94% of the energy put in a coil (it is the value I attained myself in several expriments). The back emf energy is always less than the energy put in the coil (due to losses) even when there is no part of the input energy used to run a motor. So a discussion on how to cancel Back EMF is conventional technics and irrelevant for giving proof of OU.








Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 04:28:49 PM
It's in what ... 1.5 hours? Well I never gave Steorn a dime and never signed any NDA with them, but I'm still open minded until something happens.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 19, 2009, 04:37:53 PM
...
Then when the magnets arrive exactly over the toroidal ferrite core coils,
these coils are pulsed by a Reed Switch from the battery,
see:

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/
Part Number 23

and then repelled, so the rotor can rotate on.

One interesting fact here is, that these toroidal ferrite core coils
normally have their magnet fields completely inside the ferrite core
and only leakage flux is coming out of them..
so the rotor will probably have not much torque,
cause this will not repell strongly the rotor magnets.
...

There is another way to see the functionning (I dont know which is the right one). The rotor magnets are grouped by 2. If their poles are inverted, then the magnetic field between them, crossing the toroid, is oriented parallel to the toroid axis.
As an ordinary toroid coil carries a "multi-turns current" around its section but also a whole "one-turn current" around its axis (see the top half-page here: http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Experiences/Telos/) we guess that the "one-turn current" could provide the repelling force.

It would be interesting to know the relative polarity of the 2 magnets.


Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2009, 06:08:16 PM
Quote
I would be more interested in seeing him arrested or being handed a summons live for ripping all those people off.

I thought they only had private investors that were fully aware of the issues.
Like EESTOR, they only have private investors that were willing to gamble(invest) because the large profit potential.

Kinda like when you buy a lottery ticket. (big profit, small chance)
If they lose then oh well!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Staffman on December 19, 2009, 06:10:43 PM
Anyone getting sound on the video?

Edit: I see others are having issues as well. I guess it's easier to create perpetual motion than to stream video with audio.

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Airstriker on December 19, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
yes a sound of silence and no video ;] Very pro ;]
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: Airstriker on December 19, 2009, 06:39:32 PM
ok after all it wasn't that bad :P
toroid coils... hmm
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2009, 07:00:05 PM
I wonder the polarity of the rotor magnets.
At what position is the coil triggered.
Before coil center, as in attraction?
After center, as in repel?
After center, as in changing the permeability of the core to remove attraction?

I guess not much was answered on the operational theory.
Was still interesting.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 07:18:33 PM
Steorn said they'll post the recent live talks on their youtube page,

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 07:20:41 PM
Someone else posted the video, no sound  :( ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnDW3mGyNvA
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 08:49:49 PM
Someone else posted the video, no sound  :( ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnDW3mGyNvA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnDW3mGyNvA)

Speccy said the above video was captured some of the silent bit before it started, setting it up, some oscilloscope traces and what not. So it's not the entire talk.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: markdansie on December 19, 2009, 09:25:21 PM
here is a description of a similar device
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994#
This may help you see the orbo in a new light.
Kind Regards
Mark






Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 19, 2009, 09:47:56 PM
Ahhh...the Retro-Encabulator!!!

Why didn't I understand Orbo before. The differential girdle-spring was the KEY component!!!

Thanks Mark!!!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2009, 10:41:59 PM
I think he was right, it did seem to have the retro look!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 10:47:23 PM
Here's a nice brand new HD video on the orbo at the demo site,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6tdlavXAMY
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: markdansie on December 20, 2009, 12:39:53 AM
@resinrat,
you hit the nail on the head. Well done.
I am posting the link again so we can do a direct comparision with the link paul has put up. I am sure everyone will be amazed at the similarities in terminology and outcomes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994#

Have a good xmas everyone

Mark






Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 01:40:07 AM
Could someone please post the lingo similarities? Also it didn't look the orbo.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2009, 01:57:59 AM
One was a bad actor practicing for the Ronco talent show, and the other was some engineer that may have a solution to endless energy.

Not a close match but exactly the same for someone with glaucoma. (narrow vision)
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:27:20 AM
Steorn just posted todays Talks video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5nae_I_Mus

Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: utilitarian on December 20, 2009, 02:44:07 AM
Could someone please post the lingo similarities? Also it didn't look the orbo.

Dude, are you seriously expecting someone to make a comparison analysis between the orbo and the retro discombobulator thingy?  The point is they are both joke devices.
Title: STEORN LIVE Demo in Dublin, December 19th, 5 pm results
Post by: hartiberlin on December 20, 2009, 03:47:08 AM
Hi All,

today was a live demo of a scope measurement on the ORBO.

Now this thing gets much more clearer !

Have a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5nae_I_Mus
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5ZxPkGxmQ

Seems Steorn has a valid counterEMF less (Lenz law violation) motor
which brings up the possibility to produce greater mechanical torque power than inputed electrical power.

The question is, if the mechanical attraction of the magnets to the ferrite cores (distance x force) of the toroidal coils are bigger than the used energy pulse to energize the toroidal coils.

But surely you can get 90 % of the electrical input energy back, when recycling the BackEMF from the coils...

(This is the energy where the green scope trace line oscillates)

So I think it is a valid OU motor concept.

Now they only have to optimize the toroidal coils,
so these would need to have a much higher turn winding numbers, so
they work more likely like Newman coils and don´t need so much energy
per On pulse. Surely you have to optimize the tau=LxR of the coil wire
to get fast switching times for high speed=high power motors
and then compromize to use low input current with more turn number coils
and higher coil impedances.

Well done Steorn.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 20, 2009, 03:56:49 AM


Your analysis is correct until the rotor magnet reaches the
toroid coil.  At this point a pulse into the toroid coil saturates
the toroid core since it exceeds a certain ampere-turns
rating for that particular core material and size.  When the
toroid magnetic core saturates, it becomes what I call
"synthetic air" as all its magnetic properties disappear.
Since the rotor magnet is not attracted to "synthetic air"
it continues to rotate with no braking.  The magnetic leakage
from the now air-cored toroid is small.
Once the rotor magnet is far enough away from the toroid,
the pulse is stopped and the toroid core returns to being
magnetic material.

In my opinion, this demo is completely different from all
else Stoern has done until now.

In effect, this motor is alchemy.  Instead of turning lead into
gold, it turns magnetic material into air.[/b]



Hi Earl,
yes, it seems you are right,
they just saturate the ferrite cores with very high input current pulses
and then the cores act just like normal air , so uR=1 and not anymore
1000 or so..what ferrite normally has..
This saturation probably needs pretty big currents and I wonder how
these current pulses could be decreased maybe via higher turn number coils.
So it would probably be better to build lower RPM motors with more torque,
as then you can use higher turn number coils with a higher tau=LxR and thus lower switching frequencies
but bigger size and more torque to compensate for the lower speed.

Should be pretty easy to scale this effect up.

So it seems this is a real Lenzless counterEMF-less motor.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Earl on December 20, 2009, 03:12:27 PM

Hi Earl,
yes, it seems you are right,
they just saturate the ferrite cores with very high input current pulses
and then the cores act just like normal air , so uR=1 and not anymore
1000 or so..what ferrite normally has..
This saturation probably needs pretty big currents and I wonder how
these current pulses could be decreased maybe via higher turn number coils.

Since it is Ampere-turns that saturate, with low turns you need higher Amps and with higher turns lower Amps.  As always there is no perfection, only a good compromise.  The more turns, the slower the current ramps up, so it takes longer time to saturate.

So it would probably be better to build lower RPM motors with more torque,
as then you can use higher turn number coils with a higher tau=LxR and thus lower switching frequencies
but bigger size and more torque to compensate for the lower speed.

Should be pretty easy to scale this effect up.

So it seems this is a real Lenzless counterEMF-less motor.

No, this motor has nothing to do with Lenz effect or Lenz-less operation.  Only a motor using current to attract or repel a magnet is subject to Lenz's law.  This motor does not use current through a coil to attract or repel a magnet, so it can *NOT* be said to be a Lenz-less motor.

It makes *NO* sense with this motor to talk about Lenz's law, there is no connection at all.

The only thing to do with this motor is measure power input consumption and power output and see if the cost of saturating the core is more or less than the output power.

I think we should all stay cool and calm until some valid measurements are made and make no conclusions now.


Regards, Stefan.

Regards, Earl
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 03:41:06 PM
Someone put up a youtube video that includes more of the Talks. The official steorn youtube video does not include any of the questions afterwards. The following video includes at least one question & answer,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5ZxPkGxmQ

Here Sean talks about dark matter.  ;D

You might want to download this video in case Steorn has the person remove it.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: ramset on December 20, 2009, 03:44:27 PM
Paul

Thanks for that info !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5ZxPkGxmQ

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 20, 2009, 04:02:08 PM

Regards, Earl


So, it is cancelling the ferromagnetism of the core correct?
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 04:09:49 PM
You're welcome Chet. Hey take a look at this promising machine. Maybe its design is related to the Orbo,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8497 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8497)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: infringer on December 20, 2009, 05:18:10 PM
So will this toast ferrite very soon causing yet another precious resource extinction?

Ferrite the new black gold Texas T now Texas F?

This worries me a little there original demo I do not believe was the same thing I wonder if this is just an intro type device to show a possible working model?

Either way I am still rooting for these guys I would assume ferrite is an abundant resource do not quot me on that though...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Liberty on December 20, 2009, 07:21:55 PM
Harti,
your analysis is only partially correct.  Comments in-line.

Yes because the toroid core is made of magnetic material.

No, the rotor magnets are NOT repelled.

The rotor magnets are neither strongly nor weakly repelled;
they only continue coasting by without being attracted back
in the direction of the torrid core.  The pulse into the toroid
coil has NO effect on the rotor magnets, neither attraction
nor repulsion.

Your analysis is correct until the rotor magnet reaches the
toroid coil.  At this point a pulse into the toroid coil saturates
the toroid core since it exceeds a certain ampere-turns
rating for that particular core material and size.  When the
toroid magnetic core saturates, it becomes what I call
"synthetic air" as all its magnetic properties disappear.
Since the rotor magnet is not attracted to "synthetic air"
it continues to rotate with no braking.  The magnetic leakage
from the now air-cored toroid is small.
Once the rotor magnet is far enough away from the toroid,
the pulse is stopped and the toroid core returns to being
magnetic material.

In my opinion, this demo is completely different from all
else Stoern has done until now.

In effect, this motor is alchemy.  Instead of turning lead into
gold, it turns magnetic material into air.


It should be very easy to replicate this motor, add
generator coils, use optosensors for timing and then
measure input to output power.  No reed relays
necessary.

I do not think that Stoern is using generator coils in
this demo.  This demo is interesting due to the non
traditional use of magnetic core saturation, but it
shows absolutely nothing about under or over unity.


Regards, Earl


It would appear that the key to this motor being able to generate more power out than input power, is whether the power invested in the toroid coil is more or less than the amount of useful torque output of the motor measured as watts of power out.  The amount of heat generated by the power input into the toroid coil is of no matter.  Heat that is generated is waste and is not useful.  Perhaps they will do a straight forward test like just described, to answer the real question.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: wings on December 20, 2009, 07:34:30 PM
"they just saturate the ferrite cores with very high input current pulses"

4 coils , it is possible with only 1 AA battery?

Current and voltage starts at different time it is usual?

The ferrite core it is not visible , my be there is an hidden horizontal coil inside?
more in line with his philosophy
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2009, 08:27:19 PM
The core material is ferrite?
Did I miss something?

I would think something like a small spool of 1010 steel wire would be a better core material because of it's high permeability and low saturation point.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: infringer on December 21, 2009, 02:10:19 AM
Even if this is a pulse motor and some wacky measurement look at the video when you slow the motor down the voltage and current remains...

Unless this part is the illusion which I doubt cause if you slow something down for seconds at a time pulsing or not it should be visible on the scope.

With that said I seem to believe that Steorn has a valid technology and it may also be possible that Tensol Kola may have had something as well thanks to how skeptic we have become I think it is possible that we tend to discount some things to the extreme!

The joule thief was a great find but people throw dirt at that one too rather then make flashlights to run with them....

Even if it this thing is not over unity people please realize that this may be the next step forward...

DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT LET THIS DIE!
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: MileHigh on December 21, 2009, 08:16:11 AM
I tried a search on the CNN web site:

"Your search Steorn did not match any documents."

They aren't exactly big news.  I love all the Lucite.

They did not use a capacitor for the demo because that would have been the Steorn Super Fail, ending up on the YouTube Failblog page.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 21, 2009, 11:32:40 AM
"they just saturate the ferrite cores with very high input current pulses"

4 coils , it is possible with only 1 AA battery?

Current and voltage starts at different time it is usual?

The ferrite core it is not visible , my be there is an hidden horizontal coil inside?
more in line with his philosophy

These are normal ferrite core coils as you can see from the high resolution pictures
posted.

The function is this:

If the ferrite coils are not energized, the magnets in the rotor attract the
stator ferrite cores of the coils.
the rotor is accelerated into the direction of the ferrite cores.

At the time the rotor magnets reach the ferrite cores of the stator coils,
the coils are energized for a few milliseconds, so the ferrite cores
get saturated and their muR=1 then, so these ferrite cores act then,
as if they would be air and thus the rotor magnets don´t see any
ferrite anymore and can rotate freely on.
Then the coils are switched off and the rotor magnets again attract the ferrite
from the next position and so the rotor can rotate on and gets accelerated
and produces torque.

Now to scale this effect up,it only needs bigger and stronger rotor magnets
and optimized toroidal ferrite core coils,where the inputted energy can be recycled.

If you go for about 1/5 tau=LR only switchon time,
you will almost have no ohmical losses in these coils and can
recycle about 90 % of the inputed energy via BackEMF extraction.

( Please remember the difference between BackEMF and CounterEMF !
This motor does not have CounterEMF. But it does have BackEMF,
which is the same like flyback coils, who generate a voltage spike,
when they are switched off. BackEMF comes from the stored magnetic
energy of the coil and core and can be recycled, which is also the case over here.

CounterEMF is the normal induction for instance in a normal DC motor,
where the movement of the coils in a magnet field are inducing a counter voltage versus
the driving voltage, so the total driving voltage is always less than the inputted
supply voltage. In the Orbo motor we don´t have such a CounterEMF !)

So with an optimized design with BackEMF recycling you only need about 10% energy input
of what Steorn has shown now and can get the same torquexRPM= output power
out of it.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 21, 2009, 03:01:27 PM

( Please remember the difference between BackEMF and CounterEMF !
This motor does not have CounterEMF. But it does have BackEMF,
which is the same like flyback coils, who generate a voltage spike,
when they are switched off. BackEMF comes from the stored magnetic
energy of the coil and core and can be recycled, which is also the case over here.

CounterEMF is the normal induction for instance in a normal DC motor,
where the movement of the coils in a magnet field are inducing a counter voltage versus
the driving voltage, so the total driving voltage is always less than the inputted
supply voltage. In the Orbo motor we don´t have such a CounterEMF !)


Stefan,
Lets not confuse BEMF or CEMF, both are a form of induced EMF opposing the original current flow. It seems that in this case there won't be any BEMF/CEMF (as there is no interaction with magnets), but you will have something called self-induction.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/EddyCurrents/Physics/selfinductance.htm

I guess, you mean self-induction, when you say that there is a BEMF in the coil. Just trying to clear it up. Self-Induction is all we have when we just switch on/off a coil in absence of any other fields or materials.

So, it seems here that they are simply switching on/off the ferromagnetic property of an iron core using pulses. Surely, the battery will drain, no doubt, because of heat losses in flipping of ferromagnetic domains and a bit of resistance/radiation losses etc. The only thing that is charging the battery back is only its own self-inductance. You can make that 99% efficient.

If they can show (or anyone here) that the energy output of the rotor is greater than the energy loss of the battery in say, 1 hour, they have OU.

If anyone on this forum is doing any tests, please post the results, I guess the secret is out now :-)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 21, 2009, 03:11:09 PM
These are normal ferrite core coils as you can see from the high resolution pictures
posted.

The function is this:


So with an optimized design with BackEMF recycling you only need about 10% energy input
of what Steorn has shown now and can get the same torquexRPM= output power
out of it.

Hi Stephan,

I have been following the YouTube video #1 from Steorn but pulled my questions on that site as it seems that they give out very little technical information.  The video answers a lot of questions and I suspect your analysis is very correct.  There very obviously is BackEMF and little or no CounterEMF due to the toroidal coil construction. 

I had lots of problems with the design at first as I know that there is virtually no magnetic field external to a close coupled toroid coil and could not figure out how it could drive the rotor.  Finally realized it was simply a Adams motor (I assume everyone knows what a Adams motor is and how it works, if not Google it) with NO CEMF due to the toroid coil design.  It was also immediately apparent that you could recover most of the BEMF to a fast recharge the battery/supply with surprising results. 

IF you put a bridge rectifier across the coil network and drive the coils with a voltage low enough to not turn on the diodes during the pulse  (around 1.4V for a 4 diode bridge or higher if multiple diodes used in the legs of bridge) you then can recover the BEMF back to the battery.  You end up with resistive losses and very short BEMF pulses if diodes are fast enough and battery accepts a fast pulse recharge.  Thus you end up with a very efficient motor, Not powerful but super efficient in its own funny way.  Their estimate of COP around 3 for the power input vs. rotor mechanical output after all is accounted for is probably close and as seen in the Adams motor.  A standard pulse generator only has to make up for the actual resistive losses (10%?), charging losses (20-40%) air drag and bearing losses and you have a OU or super efficient device. A Super Cap should be much more efficient as a power supply than the battery used as there would be no recharging losses in the Cap. 

That they have not been able to utilize a solid state switching device is a puzzle considering the amount of money spend on this device.  There are many switches that have a very low ON resistance, are very fast devices for switching efficiency and fast recovery diodes that should work with no problem.  Anyway, I'm having fun working with this new twist.  It will take time to build one.  When you use NEO's with close coupled fields, the device must be robust to say the least. 

Happy holidays to all,
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ChileanOne on December 21, 2009, 03:18:53 PM
These are normal ferrite core coils as you can see from the high resolution pictures
posted.

The function is this:

If the ferrite coils are not energized, the magnets in the rotor attract the
stator ferrite cores of the coils.
the rotor is accelerated into the direction of the ferrite cores.

At the time the rotor magnets reach the ferrite cores of the stator coils,
the coils are energized for a few milliseconds, so the ferrite cores
get saturated and their muR=1 then, so these ferrite cores act then,
as if they would be air and thus the rotor magnets don´t see any
ferrite anymore and can rotate freely on.
Then the coils are switched off and the rotor magnets again attract the ferrite
from the next position and so the rotor can rotate on and gets accelerated
and produces torque.

Now to scale this effect up,it only needs bigger and stronger rotor magnets
and optimized toroidal ferrite core coils,where the inputted energy can be recycled.

If you go for about 1/5 tau=LR only switchon time,
you will almost have no ohmical losses in these coils and can
recycle about 90 % of the inputed energy via BackEMF extraction.

( Please remember the difference between BackEMF and CounterEMF !
This motor does not have CounterEMF. But it does have BackEMF,
which is the same like flyback coils, who generate a voltage spike,
when they are switched off. BackEMF comes from the stored magnetic
energy of the coil and core and can be recycled, which is also the case over here.

CounterEMF is the normal induction for instance in a normal DC motor,
where the movement of the coils in a magnet field are inducing a counter voltage versus
the driving voltage, so the total driving voltage is always less than the inputted
supply voltage. In the Orbo motor we don´t have such a CounterEMF !)

So with an optimized design with BackEMF recycling you only need about 10% energy input
of what Steorn has shown now and can get the same torquexRPM= output power
out of i

Hello Stephan, good to see that you are finding merit in Steorn's shown device.


You are still way off the mark, and that's because of non obvious things, but you are in the right track.

Cheeers!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 21, 2009, 03:32:28 PM
A test by someone on the tube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBEZutgbRiM
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 21, 2009, 04:38:54 PM
A test by someone on the tube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBEZutgbRiM

Well done !
I guess now we know the real effect behind
the Steorn Orbo demo.

Tinsel Koala does not agree,
but his 4 new videos do show a totally different motor,
which I must have a closer look at still first .

He is using just aircore coils and seems to have simular CounterEMF -less
behaviour...

See:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 21, 2009, 04:51:28 PM
Well done !
I guess now we know the real effect behind
the Steorn Orbo demo.

Tinsel Koala does not agree,
but his 4 new videos do show a totally different motor,
which I must have a closer look at still first .

He is using just aircore coils and seems to have simular CounterEMF -less
behaviour...

See:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala


Regards, Stefan.

I agree with you Stefan, TK is mixing apples and oranges and trying to prove they are the same. An air core PM motor does NOT a shielding device make (Adams Motor).  A air core motor can be made to be low CEMF and have BEMF or Inductive kickback with funky coil design as shown, same thing, but that is all. it will not be OU.   He is an excellent experimenter, usually dead on, and I have watched his work for a long time but I think he is missing the point on this design.  I have built both kinds of motors, looked at waveforms till I was blue in the face but never latched onto the toroidal coil design!  I give Stoern credit for that!!!!!  Absolutely cool!!!!! 
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 21, 2009, 04:52:25 PM
For any moderate builder this motor is very easy to build. It might be even easier to modify and existing bedini motor.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 21, 2009, 04:52:52 PM
Stephan
Nice to know TK is on the job
Thanks for the link

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 21, 2009, 05:31:17 PM
Yes, this is the first time I've seen TK is behaving strangely. He is rushing out videos after videos showing a completely different setup. Unexpected ...from a person so competent. It should not take him more than an hour to set an Orbo up.

But, Clanzer is saying that he has an orbo running on his desktop, of course, he can't go public with it, but he has a good reputation here.

So the design is simple and needs a few components, lets see who comes up with the first replication :)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 21, 2009, 05:39:56 PM
Well, yes, I think Clanzer has signed NDA with Steorn and can not say much,
but I guess he helped them with the demos and might have also build
a few models for them.

Too bad his website forumis down in this moment.

All I can see at his website:
http://overunity.org.uk/
is only 403 errors.
Yeasterday it was a database error, today only 403 error.

I will look now closer at what Tinsel Koala has done.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 05:43:08 PM
I would agree that this Orbo effect is seen in a lot of other designs. IMO it's far more complex than just saturating the core, so please consider that if saturating the core does not work. Long ago I did plenty of FEMM analysis on my designs which use this same effect, and simply saturating the core always showed less than 100% efficiency, but if you get the applied field from the electrical current just right relative to the particular core you are using, then according to FEMM it is COP>1. I managed to find nine of my FEMM sims on this type of effect, but could not find the Lua scripts to go with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance

The adam motor sounds like it has potential. Any good replications? I commend Steorn on their great work. Good for them for closing the loop, successfully creating a self-runner.

Agreed, do *NOT* let this effect die. IMO it's legit. Nice going Steorn!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 05:51:34 PM
[continued]
Ben makes an interesting point about the mechanical switch in Orbo. It's true there are transistors with incredibly low resistance, but one thing I've always hated about designing such circuits is that they require a diode, and diodes have a forward voltage. One way to improve the efficiency of a solid state design is to bring the voltage levels as high as possible, so the if diode forward voltage is say 0.5V, and caps voltage is 500V, then the losses are not so bad. I know there are a high speed relays, and there's not forward voltage drop like a diode. Maybe that's why Steorn used a relay instead.
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: teslaalset on December 21, 2009, 05:52:42 PM
I would agree that this Orbo effect is seen in a lot of other designs. IMO it's far more complex than just saturating the core, so please consider that if saturating the core does not work. Long ago I did plenty of FEMM analysis on my designs which use this same effect, and simply saturating the core always showed less than 100% efficiency, but if you get the applied field from the electrical current just right relative to the particular core you are using, then according to FEMM it is COP>1. I managed to find nine of my FEMM sims on this type of effect, but could not find the Lua scripts to go with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance

The adam motor sounds like it has potential. Any good replications? I commend Steorn on their great work. Good for them for closing the loop, successfully creating a self-runner.

Agreed, do *NOT* let this effect die. IMO it's legit. Nice going Steorn!

Paul, can you share the lua script files that go with these designs?
I love playing with FEMM and it's been a while since I had a go.
Just curious about your simulation findings....
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 05:55:20 PM
Paul, can you share the lua script files that go with these designs?
I love playing with FEMM and it's been a while since I had a go.
Just curious about your simulation findings....

Hi,

My post says I could not find them. I was very careful to be certain that text was in the post before I hit the submit button, lol. I do have other lua scripts for other FEMM sims, but they're for totally different magnetic designs.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: plengo on December 21, 2009, 05:57:01 PM
I think this motor is an exact function of the window motor from Bedini with certain modifications, that being
the use of a toroid. If you look at the window motor and how it really works, one will see that it
runs not by the magnetic field itself but by the B field and its "curly A" field as Bearden explains
therefore why the name "window motor" (since it opens the window to the curly A field to manifest itself
without the restrictive B field.

Steron is using a 2 magnets which I think are arranged in a tri-state magnetic gate, North facing the other South)
so top magent is sharply north facing down while the bottom magnet is south sharply facing up, so in the
intersection of both magnets you have this "gate".

When the magnets approach the toroid a magnetic flux is generated on the toroid but the trick is this: a very
sharp pulse will flip the gate in the magnets causing them to repell from the toroid because of the
curly A field which spins trasversially from the toroid, just like Howard Jonhson's train on the tracks
example and his gates, therefore repelling the magnets away from the toroid.

This gate flipping is what Bearden claims to be what Howard Jonshon's motor principles of functionality.
Bedini also talks about that one point.

My 2 cents,

Fausto.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 06:10:07 PM
Lot of interesting ideas. Seems there are various ways of looking at this, and different design flavors.

[edit: never mind]
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 21, 2009, 06:38:09 PM
I'm thinking at this point, it would be best to try to first get even one exact operating replica. But even this is nearly impossible.
We still need all the missing details.

Rotor magnet polarity. (could easily try all combinations)

Coil core material.(probable high permeability and low saturation point)

Timing of current trigger.(could make adjustable to cover entire range)

Most important! (theory of operation) We all see it run, and believe we understand why, but why aren't they saying?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 21, 2009, 07:01:16 PM
People really think Steorn has been doing nothing these past years. Don't you think if they are selling those torque integrators they would have used them themselves to death???

They know exactly how much energy is generated and used without the use of speculation or simulations. Further more this allows them to perfect the system in almost record times. By changing angles and materials on the spot. Then people like tinselkoala come along disproving their entire data by eye balling and speculation, this is outrageous to say the least. I have nothing against debunking but if that's your goal you better set the standards much higher than the thing you want to debunk not LOWER!

I have ran my own simulations to see how much net flux a magnet creates in a toroid when it passes it by and it's very little but definitely not zero. Determining this is not straightforward as you require a double integral which FEMM might be able to do.

This simulation has nothing to do with the forces but purely on the amount of "functional" flux caused by the magnet in the CORE that is able to cause a counter EMF. What I mean by functional is that you only look at the flux portion that goes tangential with the toroid and since this is the only portion that will induce an emf.

The integral has to be made in concentric circles around the core going from inner diamater to outer diameter. This will give a value that can be attributed to the net flux. If you animate this with the magnet starting at TDC and moving away from the core you will need to do this integral every frame.

There's a trick to completely kill emf without the need of simulations and speculation. I'll think about it more and post it.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 07:13:08 PM
FEMM gives forces as well.

BTW, FEMM cannot sim the Orbo design because it requires 3D sim beyond axisymmetric. FEMM can only do 3D axisymmetric sims.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 21, 2009, 08:03:44 PM
It depends, if the polarity is as the below illustration then it can. But such simulation is definitely not for the faint of heart. You need to be sure of what you are doing.

you start at 10 o'clock for instance and start measuring torque up until 6 o'clock. Then you switch on the coil and you keep measuring torque. When you hit about 8 o'clock you switch the coil off while still measuring torque until you reach 12 o'clock once again.

This is the "easy" part. The near impossible part is measuring counter emf during the 6 to 8 o'clock portion. and getting a meaningful energy comparison.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 08:10:58 PM
broli,

In FEMM all of those parts are *infinitely* high, and therefore the magnetic field is prevented from escaping on a axis that would go outside the screen. Also the magnetic field from the magnet is going to be less. Furthermore the effective permeability from an infinitely high toroid for *external* fields is going to be completely different than if it was done properly in a 3D sim.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 21, 2009, 08:13:00 PM
[continued]
Ben makes an interesting point about the mechanical switch in Orbo. It's true there are transistors with incredibly low resistance, but one thing I've always hated about designing such circuits is that they require a diode, and diodes have a forward voltage. One way to improve the efficiency of a solid state design is to bring the voltage levels as high as possible, so the if diode forward voltage is say 0.5V, and caps voltage is 500V, then the losses are not so bad. I know there are a high speed relays, and there's not forward voltage drop like a diode. Maybe that's why Steorn used a relay instead.

A continuation on that thought is even at low voltages, the rise time of a good power HEXFET is very fast so very low loss there, then if the capture diodes across the coil is fast enough, they turn on @ around .7V/diode and FET is not damaged plus as soon as they turn on, it is a current source returning power to the battery.  Remember that inductive/BEMF pulse is very high voltage if not switched into battery.  Been experimenting with somee 2.7 V, 650FULTRACAP's this morning and they are amazing devices.....Impedance is so low it is unbelieveable! Low leakage, robust. Just looks like the ultimate power source!  Sure would like to see one on their device!  Going to build a motor but will have to wait till this weekend, traveling over Xmas, back on Sat.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 21, 2009, 08:25:35 PM

There's a trick to completely kill emf without the need of simulations and speculation. I'll think about it more and post it.

Hi Broli and all,
YES you can completly KILL the CounterEMF during your ON-Time from 6 to 8:

Just put 2 toroidal coils in series, but with one coil the polarity reversed !

This way the counterEMF will add up to ZERO !
But as the current does still flow, the effect of making the ferrite act
like air with muR=1 is still there and voila , no CounterEMF !

You probably still can extract the BackEMF, if you have seperate graetz bridge diode rectifier
circuits across the single toroidal coils, so this would be the optimal solution, I guess.

@Ben, I totally agree with you , what you said about TinselKoala.

He just has a much different setup that just shows low CounterEMF,
which his scope on these settings and due to his low tau=LR does not show.

also he has some kind of triangle CounterEMF induction waveform.
The Orbo probably has a much different very low CounterEMF, when the
magnets just go by the toroidal ferrite coils and as I said above,
this also can be canceled by putting 2 coils with polarity reversed in series !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 21, 2009, 08:42:12 PM
Hi Broli and all,
YES you can completly KILL the CounterEMF during your ON-Time from 6 to 8:

Just put 2 toroidal coils in series, but with one coil the polarity reversed !

This way the counterEMF will add up to ZERO !
But as the current does still flow, the effect of making the ferrite act
like air with muR=1 is still there and voila , no CounterEMF !

You probably still can extract the BackEMF, if you have seperate graetz bridge diode rectifier
circuits across the single toroidal coils, so this would be the optimal solution, I guess.

@Ben, I totally agree with you , what you said about TinselKoala.

He just has a much different setup that just shows low CounterEMF,
which his scope on these settings and due to his low tau=LR does not show.

also he has some kind of triangle CounterEMF induction waveform.
The Orbo probably has a much different very low CounterEMF, when the
magnets just go by the toroidal ferrite coils and as I said above,
this also can be canceled by putting 2 coils with polarity reversed in series !

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

You can also use two magnets running one above and one below the centerline of the coil if coil is on side facing rotor, or one magnet hitting the top of toroid and the other hitting the bottom if facing the coil and not have to use two coils!!!!  I think in a N/S configuration.....Must test to be sure.  IF this is true, then all coils just in series and all four coils is fed into bridge back to battery.  This would give a operational voltage between 1.25 and 1.4 VDC volts when ever the innies and outties add up!  Lots of other little things but basis is pretty simple.  I do like their instrumentation but too expensive for me.  Their torque measurement device  and software would make setup a snap!  Money can buy happiness.

Ben

Another thing, I think the micrometer on the big unit, is to raise and lower lower the main rotor tracks to get the best cancelation orientation with the paired magnets.....that is just speculation though. 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 08:51:12 PM
I haven't seen TinselKoala's version, but I know for fact that it's far far more complex then slopping some toroids & magnets together and saturating the core. Maybe Steorn found a different method because they have not told me or anyone I know the details, but IMO if the toroid core is saturated then that's a guaranteed way to not get cop>1. According to my old FEMM analysis on my solid-state designs the balance of the fields between all of the applied fields can be critical.
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: 0c on December 21, 2009, 10:10:06 PM
Another thing, I think the micrometer on the big unit, is to raise and lower lower the main rotor tracks to get the best cancelation orientation with the paired magnets.....that is just speculation though.

Nope. The micrometer head is for adjusting the relationship between the ring magnets in the magnetic bearing components for minimum friction.

0c
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 21, 2009, 10:28:34 PM
@Stefan that is a simpler suggestion than mine. I don't see why it shouldn't work. Even though Steorn hasn't given away their exact theory behind orbo, I believe we have come up with a solid base worth experimenting.

To find the best conditions requires a lot of experimentation like PL points out. For instance for the ohmic losses to stay low the ideal henries have to be used that cause saturation far below the ohmic current limit. The rpm also plays a role in this, since the rise time window will get smaller if the rpm increases. Further more this energy can be captured back in a capacitor which then charges the source. For the cores preferably soft ferrite material should be used, to rule out eddy currents and core losses. These rings can be found in old power supplies of any kind.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 10:55:03 PM
Attached image is my interpretation. Red is the coil wound toroid. So you have magnetic field going vertically from one magnet, through the toroid, and into the other magnet. The amount of field going through the toroid depends on the toroids effective perm. Apply current through the toroid windings for typical magnetic material will decrease the toroid perm. Magnets rotate away from the toroid, thus requiring less energy to escape.

Trust me, there's a lot more details involved. The magnet also changes the effective perm for the toroid. If everything's not right, then there's a big loss in toroid due to a change in perm.

A little more details. After applying current in the toroid, half of the toroid perm increases and the other half decreases for typical material. When the magnet leaves the perm changes once again.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 11:04:03 PM
Where can someone buy good priced bearings in north America?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tak22 on December 21, 2009, 11:12:41 PM
Hi Paul,

I've been pleased with bearings from www.bocabearings.com (http://www.bocabearings.com)

tak
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 11:19:18 PM
Thanks. Do you inject your own lub in the bearings?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 21, 2009, 11:27:42 PM
Regarding @alsetalokin's (TinselKoala) back emf (BEMF) experiment:

This is an example of bad science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0.

Change of magnetic flux that is supposed to cause the BEMF, which is the main focus of attention here, is the change of flux caused by the pulses of current flowing through the coils. Thus, it is the emf causing these current pulses through the coils that is the subject of study here. Whether or not there is a permanent magnet nearby these coils is only a condition which may or may not change the studied emf. If that studied emf changes then there is BEMF generated. If that studied emf doesn’t change then there is no BEMF generated. In Steorn case the studied emf remained the same throughout the entire experiment despite the presence of permanent magnets near the coils and even despite their turning at various rotation rates.

Emphatically, the subject of study here is not the change of magnetic flux due to the motion of a permanent magnet that is supposed to cause emf (BEMF) in a nearby coil as the author of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0 really wants us to believe. The gingerly activity of this author in the forum, supported by another ginger activist, will not change above fact and anyone caring for the scientific side of this debate should take note.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 12:00:29 AM
Regarding @alsetalokin's (TinselKoala) back emf (BEMF) experiment:

This is an example of bad science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0.)

Change of magnetic flux that is supposed to cause the BEMF, which is the main focus of attention here, is the change of flux caused by the pulses of current flowing through the coils. Thus, it is the emf causing these current pulses through the coils that is the subject of study here. Whether or not there is a permanent magnet nearby these coils is only a condition which may or may not change the studied emf. If that studied emf changes then there is BEMF generated. If that studied emf doesn’t change then there is no BEMF generated. In Steorn case the studied emf remained the same throughout the entire experiment despite the presence of permanent magnets near the coils and even despite their turning at various rotation rates.

Emphatically, the subject of study here is not the change of magnetic flux due to the motion of a permanent magnet that is supposed to cause emf (BEMF) in a nearby coil as the author of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js24ZZ_6Je0) really wants us to believe. The gingerly activity of this author in the forum, supported by another ginger activist, will not change above fact and anyone caring for the scientific side of this debate should take note.

TK is a major idiot, emphasis on major.

If I didn't know any better I'd say he's earning his bread out of spreading disinfo. Notice how he is the first to have some sort of "replication" posted online only to debunk the case. This is classic tactics for setting a front for skepticism because any talk and debate from now on will be linked to his experiment "this can't work as claimed because this random dude on youtube proved it doesn't". For us true scientists we can see through this vail of deceit.

I already pointed out at his video that his experiment is a joke and that his assumptions and conclusions are far worse than the claims of his worst enemies.

Notice how Steorn uses exactly 4 toroids in series. Notice how Stefan correctly pointed out you can cancel counter emf by two toroids. I will bet one million dollars that Steorn's toroids are winded in reverse from toroid to toroid. This practically and theoretically eliminates any induced emf caused by the motion of the magnet. Not 100% since in practice you cannot have the same identical magnets, cores etc... but it's very close. Definitely not what the TK fraudster wants you to believe. This is not science he's performing but a circus act.

I'm not defending Steorn's OU claim since they have shown nothing about that so far. I'm only defending what they rightly said about induced emf in the coils. If the toroids are winded in reverse each time then there will be ZERO emf.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2009, 12:59:15 AM
Broli
If steorn is legit they will weather the storm

No amount of utube vids will detract from a working device or concept

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 22, 2009, 01:59:15 AM
And still I wonder, Why did Sean find it necessary to reverse the polarity to the coils?

Just to show it would run the same direction with reversed polarity?
Or did it need to be reversed to operate correctly?

Things are either missing, or they just do things to mislead people.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: happyfunball on December 22, 2009, 04:12:03 AM
And still I wonder, Why did Sean find it necessary to reverse the polarity to the coils?

Just to show it would run the same direction with reversed polarity?
Or did it need to be reversed to operate correctly?

Things are either missing, or they just do things to mislead people.

Sean seemed to be saying it was anomalous and wouldnt normally happen. Who knows...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 04:16:42 AM
.......
When the magnets approach the toroid a magnetic flux is generated on the toroid but the trick is this: a very
sharp pulse will flip the gate in the magnets causing them to repell from the toroid because of the...........

IMO, you don't want it to repel, that is wasting energy.  Pulse the toroid with just enough current where the rotor magnets will coast by the toroid core.  The Adams motor uses this same philosophy.  At higher RPM's the Orbo is much more efficient because the rotor magnets pass the core at a faster speed meaning your pulse duration is much shorter and using less energy at this higher RPM than at a lower RPM.

If you're repelling the rotor magnets with the pulse, then you won't be able to obtain the higher RPM's because your pulses will be longer in duration and nearly continuous at much lower RPM's.  You're not able to capture all of the potential momentum in repel mode.  The potential momentum is the rotor magnets being attracted to the toroid core.

Sometimes more is not always better.  It takes more energy to repel the rotor magnets with the toroid coil, than it takes to let the rotor magnets to pass, thus allowing you to achieve a higher RPM and to capture more momentum with less energy by not repelling.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 04:29:01 AM
It is very interesting to sometimes lay back and see the evelution of a thread like this. They seem to always follow the same path.
FIRST there is some level of wonder and acceptance, a sort of awe at what is being proposed.

SECOND  doubt begins to surface as the claims are brought in to question and the realization that (in this case) why is a cap and not a battery being used to power the device

THIRD And this is exactly what happened in the Mylow debacle all kinds of ideas began to be proposed that maybe this really does work, maybe because of the toroids coils there is some wonderful and mystical thing occuring that negates all the laws of physics. Remember how there was probably a 100 pages in the Mylow saga about size and placements of the magnets on the rotor, the distance between them, eddy effects and it went on and on and on....
Same thing here!

This is a small motor being run by a battery that is in turn pushing a near frictionless bearing cause "Orbo" to spin. Nothing more nothing less.
Do not let yourself "be Mylowed Again!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 22, 2009, 04:38:04 AM
And still I wonder, Why did Sean find it necessary to reverse the polarity to the coils?

Just to show it would run the same direction with reversed polarity?
Or did it need to be reversed to operate correctly?

Things are either missing, or they just do things to mislead people.

Everything shown in the video is to instruct, cause a person to think and perhaps whether intended or not, to show clues as to how the basic device can operate me thinks.  If the losses in the coils are strictly resistive, lets lower the average current while maintaining speed in a bi-polarity operable unidirectional DC pulse motor!

Consider that series inductors have a finite amount of inductance (L1+L2+L3+L4) and in the battery, besides being a battery there is some capacitance  (C) and in the correct parallel circuit with some creative switching and at a certain rpm you would develop an AC waveform where there could develop a resonance with resultant average current dropping  and motor would keep running just as efficiently due to its ability to run on a polarity in either direction! A DC pulse, sort of resonant, very efficient AC motor! Just going way outside the box.  Perhaps we need to look at that battery's specifications a bit more.  Hope this isn't too wierd a concept to all.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 04:42:39 AM
It's a battery running a motor, replace the battery with a cap and it will run down and stop, it's really that simple.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 22, 2009, 04:44:45 AM
Billmehess:

Quote
THIRD And this is exactly what happened in the Mylow debacle all kinds of ideas began to be proposed that maybe this really does work, maybe because of the toroids coils there is some wonderful and mystical thing occuring that negates all the laws of physics.

Bingo!  You hit it right on the head - in search of the "magic" configuration, again.

"If you don't use a cap, it's gotta be crap."

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Freezer on December 22, 2009, 04:52:59 AM
It's a battery running a motor, replace the battery with a cap and it will run down and stop, it's really that simple.

Is a capacitor exactly the same as a battery?   No, it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 04:54:13 AM
Thats right!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 22, 2009, 04:59:58 AM
Electronics 101:  V = Q/C.

In this case, Q = ((starting charge) - (current x time to run motor) + (current x time from the energy return))

If the energy returned from the Steorn motor is greater than the energy required to run it, the cap voltage will go up.

If the energy returned from the Steorn motor is less than the energy required to run it, the cap voltage will go down.

A capacitor is essentially 100% efficient in absorbing the energy returned from the motor whereas a battery is not 100% efficient.  Therefore a capacitor would be a better energy source for demonstrating a self-runner than a battery.

Quote
Is a capacitor exactly the same as a battery?   No, it's as simple as that.

It's not the same as a battery, it's better than a battery for this application.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 05:13:11 AM
100% correct  MileHigh, charge up a cap with the battery then disconect the battery from the system. The motor will discharge the cap and the device will slow down and stop.This is so obvious a 5 year old should be able to see it.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 05:14:24 AM
And still I wonder, Why did Sean find it necessary to reverse the polarity to the coils?

Just to show it would run the same direction with reversed polarity?
Or did it need to be reversed to operate correctly?

Things are either missing, or they just do things to mislead people.

Reversing the polarity will not reverse the rotation.  Only way to reverse the rotation is to adjust the opto.  The rotor magnets will attract to the toroid core from either direction.  The opto allows the rotor magnets to pass the toroid core by signally for a pulse.  Reversing the polarity of the current doesn't change the point in space where the opto signals for a pulse. 

This may suggest the opto signals for a pulse when the rotor magnets are slightly off-center on one side of the toroid core.  Want it to reverse it's rotation, then adjust the opto where it signals for a pulse slightly off-center on the other side of the toroid core.  This allows it to gain the most momentum and torque out of the system because it's firing when the rotor magnets are slightly passed the toroid core due to it's momentum.  Fire it too soon, and you won't capture all of it's potential momentum.  Fire it too late, and you will lose some momentum.  Timing of the pulses is critical in this setup.


GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 22, 2009, 05:31:42 AM
It's a battery running a motor, replace the battery with a cap and it will run down and stop, it's really that simple.

A straight forward opinion.  Just to take the devils advocate, Bill What if it doesn't stop and what if it doesn't run down????? 

I have to say that over the years I have grown to hate ANY pulse OU device sustained by a battery because they will run you all around the barnyard but eventually all throw you in the pigsty....As all have stated that have even a slight clue as to the operation of pulse motors you simply replace the battery with a Cap. of low enough impedance to drive the coils and the capacity to give just a few pulses, run it up to "speed" on aux. power supply, then disconnect supply, run on cap only!.  IF the device is OU, it should run and maintain on the Cap. For every power pulse and charge reduction on the cap, there has to be a generated/generator pulse that is greater or equal in charge. Thats it, no more, no less.  2 pulses(one innie and one outie) into that high dollar scope integrating the total power in and out of the battery or Cap. The answer should be there. Forget the blarney, forget the BS, just do it.  One of the Tec's helping out there must know how to use that dam Cadillac of a scope!!!! All this could be demonstrated in 3-4 min in a clear concise and simple video.......All the rest is window dressing and loving to hear themselves talk.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 05:40:48 AM
Thats what I have been saying K4zep, replace the battery with a cap. Sean will never do this he is well aware of the fact that the device will stop and the charade will be over with. He is hopeing that showing some sort of device appearing to be creating an OU condition will allow the investor dollars to keep pouring in.
It's ALL smoke and mirrors!!
All the talk about how Orbo (rhymes with horrible) could be working is all nonsence.
Like I have said it's simple a battery running a motor.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Freezer on December 22, 2009, 06:22:15 AM
Electronics 101:  V = Q/C.

In this case, Q = ((starting charge) - (current x time to run motor) + (current x time from the energy return))

If the energy returned from the Steorn motor is greater than the energy required to run it, the cap voltage will go up.

If the energy returned from the Steorn motor is less than the energy required to run it, the cap voltage will go down.

A capacitor is essentially 100% efficient in absorbing the energy returned from the motor whereas a battery is not 100% efficient.  Therefore a capacitor would be a better energy source for demonstrating a self-runner than a battery.

It's not the same as a battery, it's better than a battery for this application.

MileHigh

Too bad your fancy equations don't factor in radiant energy, or even acknowledge that it exists.


It's not the same as a battery, it's better than a battery for this application.
MileHigh

I'll take Bedini's word over yours any day, yes Bedini, a person who actually builds and experiments.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 22, 2009, 06:39:35 AM
Thats what I have been saying K4zep, replace the battery with a cap. Sean will never do this he is well aware of the fact that the device will stop and the charade will be over with. He is hopeing that showing some sort of device appearing to be creating an OU condition will allow the investor dollars to keep pouring in.
It's ALL smoke and mirrors!!
All the talk about how Orbo (rhymes with horrible) could be working is all nonsence.
Like I have said it's simple a battery running a motor.

I agree, until he shows it running on a cap with no voltage drop and/or a net gain in the cap or battery, it is what it is.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 06:40:27 AM
There has been no defenitive proof that "radiant energy" exists. Its all mump jumbo, as far as Bedini goes none of his work has shown to be even close to valid. If his claims were provable he would have picked up his Nobel prize years ago. Show me one example where any of his claims have been validated by legit
science.
In the search for OU there has grown a tremendous lore of unprovable and unsubstantiated work. Where's the working units, where's the proof!
Is this really to much to ask for?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 22, 2009, 06:59:04 AM
Freezer:

You can't just "pluck 'radiant energy' out of thin air" to advance your argument.  Sean says that more power is being returned to the battery by the return wire that connects to the battery.

Actually I did do the experiments.  I made the measurements that show that the energy in a pulse discharge from an inductor is less than or nearly equal to the battery energy that energized the inductor in the first place.  That means that Bedini's "radiant energy" is B.S.  I read his 1984 "Kromrey Convertor" 15-page treatise and I almost puked from how little sense he made when discussing electricity and batteries.

So why don't YOU do the experiments.  Hook up any Bedini motor or Joule Thief or whatever your favourite flavour of pulsing inductor circuit you want and measure the power supplied by the battery compared to the power you get from the pulsing inductor.  In all cases you will find the output power is less than the input power, and you produce heat.  The output power plus the heat will equal the input power.  "Radiant energy" is just a buzz word to get you excited and induce you to believe in something that's not there.  You can prove for yourself that it is not there if you really want to.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 07:40:37 AM
Too bad your fancy equations don't factor in radiant energy, or even acknowledge that it exists.


I'll take Bedini's word over yours any day, yes Bedini, a person who actually builds and experiments.

You should listen to what MH said to you but don't trust anybody , even if its your best friend. Your only best friend here is your data from experiment, everything else don't contribute to any of your advancement because it can mislead you. Take ANY scope who are able to do Math function(integral over CMEAN, not only MEAN) and do the integral of what go out VS what go in. The reason you need to do the integral over a CMEAN its because from cycle to cycle the value can change and the cycle time too, that cause a Bias effect, so since its not symmetrical only CMEAN can work.

Keep track of all your data, only data can show you what realy happen. If you don't have a oscilloscope who are able to do math function, buy one, best investment you will ever make.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 08:09:38 AM
If a motor runs @ 750rpm for 10 hours with drawing a constant current from a battery, then building a motor that runs @ 750rpm for 30 hours from a same type battery is cop = 3 in mechanical energy gained vs electrical energy expended.

You have gained 3 times more mechanical energy than what the battery is capable of producing.  The additional energy gained was mechanical energy and was expended in the additional 20 hours of mechanical motion instead of being converted to electrical energy. 

If you converted only half of this mechanical energy that is gained (10hrs) into electrical energy, then you have COP = 1 in electrical energy gained vs electrical energy expended with 10 hours of additional mechanical momentum to keep producing this additional energy to keep it above unity.  There is no hidden source of energy being tapped in this system.  The additional source of energy is capturing all of the potential momentum instead of killing it like we've all been doing.

Angular momentum has already been shown to defy gravity, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=545GwnupKAE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P014jvaB3ic .  As long as the momentum isn't being killed, such as by gravity in this example, then it will continue to defy gravity without slowly falling.  Capture all of the potential momentum in the Orbo or any other device without killing it and it will continue to defy physics.  Gravity in this example is killing the momentum slowly.  In our devices, we kill or don't capture the full potential of the momentum that is available to us by not properly using the magnets and the coils.  Nature is already providing an excess of energy, we just kill this excess energy, lol

GB 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 22, 2009, 08:11:10 AM
Hi Stephan,

I have been following the YouTube video #1 from Steorn but pulled my questions on that site as it seems that they give out very little technical information.  The video answers a lot of questions and I suspect your analysis is very correct.  There very obviously is BackEMF and little or no CounterEMF due to the toroidal coil construction. 

I had lots of problems with the design at first as I know that there is virtually no magnetic field external to a close coupled toroid coil and could not figure out how it could drive the rotor.  Finally realized it was simply a Adams motor (I assume everyone knows what a Adams motor is and how it works, if not Google it) with NO CEMF due to the toroid coil design.  It was also immediately apparent that you could recover most of the BEMF to a fast recharge the battery/supply with surprising results. 

IF you put a bridge rectifier across the coil network and drive the coils with a voltage low enough to not turn on the diodes during the pulse  (around 1.4V for a 4 diode bridge or higher if multiple diodes used in the legs of bridge) you then can recover the BEMF back to the battery.  You end up with resistive losses and very short BEMF pulses if diodes are fast enough and battery accepts a fast pulse recharge.  Thus you end up with a very efficient motor, Not powerful but super efficient in its own funny way.  Their estimate of COP around 3 for the power input vs. rotor mechanical output after all is accounted for is probably close and as seen in the Adams motor.  A standard pulse generator only has to make up for the actual resistive losses (10%?), charging losses (20-40%) air drag and bearing losses and you have a OU or super efficient device. A Super Cap should be much more efficient as a power supply than the battery used as there would be no recharging losses in the Cap. 

That they have not been able to utilize a solid state switching device is a puzzle considering the amount of money spend on this device.  There are many switches that have a very low ON resistance, are very fast devices for switching efficiency and fast recovery diodes that should work with no problem.  Anyway, I'm having fun working with this new twist.  It will take time to build one.  When you use NEO's with close coupled fields, the device must be robust to say the least. 

Happy holidays to all,
Ben

Could you please post a simple diagram of that setup?

I'm very interested in learning how to build a setup that recycles flyback current.

How does the flyback current get put back into the battery?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 22, 2009, 08:14:00 AM
Freezer:

You can't just "pluck 'radiant energy' out of thin air" to advance your argument.  Sean says that more power is being returned to the battery by the return wire that connects to the battery.

Actually I did do the experiments.  I made the measurements that show that the energy in a pulse discharge from an inductor is less than or nearly equal to the battery energy that energized the inductor in the first place.  That means that Bedini's "radiant energy" is B.S.  I read his 1984 "Kromrey Convertor" 15-page treatise and I almost puked from how little sense he made when discussing electricity and batteries.

So why don't YOU do the experiments.  Hook up any Bedini motor or Joule Thief or whatever your favourite flavour of pulsing inductor circuit you want and measure the power supplied by the battery compared to the power you get from the pulsing inductor.  In all cases you will find the output power is less than the input power, and you produce heat.  The output power plus the heat will equal the input power.  "Radiant energy" is just a buzz word to get you excited and induce you to believe in something that's not there.  You can prove for yourself that it is not there if you really want to.

MileHigh

Could you please post a simple method of how someone could reclaim flyback current and put it back into the battery?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 08:15:34 AM
If a motor runs @ 750rpm for 10 hours with drawing a constant current from a battery, then building a motor that runs @ 750rpm for 30 hours from a same type battery is cop = 3 in mechanical energy gained vs electrical energy expended.

You have gained 3 times more mechanical energy than what the battery is capable of producing.  The additional energy gained was expended in the additional 20 hours of mechanical energy instead of being converted to electrical energy. 

.......
GB

Its only true if both motor have the same load, without load , the RPM mean absolutely nothing. Rotoverter is a perfect example of that.

Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Freezer on December 22, 2009, 08:31:11 AM
So why don't YOU do the experiments.  Hook up any Bedini motor or Joule Thief or whatever your favourite flavour of pulsing inductor circuit you want and measure the power supplied by the battery compared to the power you get from the pulsing inductor.  In all cases you will find the output power is less than the input power, and you produce heat.  The output power plus the heat will equal the input power.

MileHigh

All cases huh?  So I guess you have built every single pulsing circuit that could ever be conceived and tested all these without success?  You are pretty damn good!

"Radiant energy" is just a buzz word to get you excited and induce you to believe in something that's not there.  You can prove for yourself that it is not there if you really want to.

MileHigh

Sorry I don't do debunking, I build to make things work, not to prove things don't work, we have a team of debunkers for that, to tell us how it can't work, how it's not possible, and how it will never be done.  Same with people who said it was impossible to build a rocket and travel to the moon.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 08:33:56 AM
Its only true if both motor have the same load, without load , the RPM mean absolutely nothing. Rotoverter is a perfect example of that.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

If both motors have coils with the same load on the battery, then the RPM is relative in both systems and is not absolutely nothing.  A coil is a load on the battery, is it not?  This means both motors in my example have the same load!

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 08:40:52 AM
If both motors have the same coils, then it has the same load.  A coil is a load on the battery, is it not?  This means the RPM is relative in both systems and is not absolutely nothing.

GB

No its not a load for the battery, in reality , under NO LOAD , if the coil is a ideal one (no loss) it cost you nothing if you put a sin wave on it, what go in = what come back , its basic electronic for inductor with alternating current. but keep in mind that my example is for a NO LOSS coil , in real world you have lost because of the resistance of the wire but not as large as you think. Its why i said to you that you need a load on a motor to know the power you can extract form it and compare it with another one.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

EDIT : look here , will be a good start for you  to understand inductor http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_3/2.html
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 09:00:17 AM
@IceStorm,

The inductance of an inductor is comprised of two components. The first is the self-inductance and the second is the intrinsic inductance (some call it the internal inductance).

Classical theory claims Intrinsic inductance is a linear function of wire length and independent of wire diameter. According to the classical understanding of inductance, if we construct two circular loops of wire, both with the same loop shape, but with different wire gauge, then both should have the same inductance. But this is not the case and can be seen in the results below.  Since the thickness of wire does affect the intrinsic inductance, then the classical model for intrinsic inductance is incorrect.  Here is the reference showing classical understanding of inductance is not right, http://www.distinti.com/docs/apoce.pdf in section 1 and 2 of the pdf document.

48 inch       Area (sq. in)       26 AWG wire                22 AWG wire
perimeter                            (Measured)                  (Measured)
shapes
--------------------------------------------------------------
Circle         183                   2253nH                        2055nH
Square       144                   2144nH                        1950nH


Also, the magnetic field around a moving charge is not toroidal or donut shaped as taught.  Simple experiments shows the magnetic field is spherical around the moving charges.  I could go on and on about how classical theory has it wrong and is incomplete also.  Classical theory can't even get the basic stuff right, and simple experiments clearly shows this.

GB
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: 4Tesla on December 22, 2009, 09:04:13 AM
Watch first demo:
http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 22, 2009, 09:39:00 AM
Is there anyone in this thread that can explain a simple method to capture the flyback current and put it back in a battery?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 22, 2009, 09:51:22 AM
here let me explain...

sm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbfbfxghkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbfbfxghkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbkjfkhgskfkjdsg jdshg sdjgfsfkj kshgd fskjhgdfa fajshgfas dfagjak sdfgsadf jkhgdsaf jhgds fkjshgdfjkshgd f dafhga fkja gfkjgd fkjhgd fkjhgdsaf ashgdf sadkjhgakjhf akdjshkshfgyrekjhdagkfhgshgsakh fhdsfk hjgdsa fkjahgs fkahgsfkhds fksagdfkjshgd fkhgsdkjhgs dkfjfsdgfhdsk fjsa ajg fhagdfbdsvb xc vv cxv xc bxcvbxcbxcvbcxbxcvb xvcdfghdsghjfgjgfhgdfgdsfgdsfghfh fd ggfhfdhfxcfgz xvhbjghjh ggfhjfdgdf sdf dsf gsdx fgds dxb dgdxf ghgdd  fgh fdfg dxxx bcxbcbcxnbcvn cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcvbcbxcxbvc xc vbxcbfdhgj gkjhjbkbjk bn,m ,m ,nb, nb n nb, nm,mbnm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cvnb                   
vc nbvcnbvcbcvn vbfbfxgh







search for "joule thief"


pretty simple huh? lol
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 22, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
Freezer:

You can't just "pluck 'radiant energy' out of thin air" to advance your argument.  Sean says that more power is being returned to the battery by the return wire that connects to the battery.

Actually I did do the experiments.  I made the measurements that show that the energy in a pulse discharge from an inductor is less than or nearly equal to the battery energy that energized the inductor in the first place.  That means that Bedini's "radiant energy" is B.S.  I read his 1984 "Kromrey Convertor" 15-page treatise and I almost puked from how little sense he made when discussing electricity and batteries.

So why don't YOU do the experiments.  Hook up any Bedini motor or Joule Thief or whatever your favourite flavour of pulsing inductor circuit you want and measure the power supplied by the battery compared to the power you get from the pulsing inductor.  In all cases you will find the output power is less than the input power, and you produce heat.  The output power plus the heat will equal the input power.  "Radiant energy" is just a buzz word to get you excited and induce you to believe in something that's not there.  You can prove for yourself that it is not there if you really want to.

MileHigh

All energy is radiant which relegates the term to meaningless. Even Bedini stated when asked what radiant energy is "that it is any energy that radiates." The term means nothing in a science discussion.

Mass is made of energy and all there is in this universe is mass and energy. You can convert mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass and that is how all free energy devices work. You cannot produce stable mass from energy since only a black hole has that kind of power.

Atoms are tiny spinning masses of compressed energy - simple as that.

What is interesting about Orbo, he is using the north and south pole of a magnet since he is using a toroid coil. Most motors only use one pole and the other is wasted.

The Lentz cancellation may be due to the fact that the toroid is using both poles. If the two magnets are magnetically shorted on the other end with a third magnet of opposite polarity, I could see how that might improve their pulse motor through pulse compression. they may also have a shorted coil to cause a compression - see Thane Heins.

Pulse compression creates acceleration. All free energy devices use acceleration to disrupt the spin of an atom to release the energy being compressed within the two or more waves that form it. There are many ways of producing acceleration, pulse compression (compressing energy into time) is just one of them.

There are free energy receivers but they fall into another class of device that convert one form of energy such as heat into another such as electricity or light into electricity. They do not tend to produce large amounts of energy.

I would just wait and see. They are real people using their real names and their real asses are on the line. They don't appear to be con men. Releasing a free energy device in a public forum is a nearly impossible task for a bunch of reason.

Most scientist and inventor stumble many times prior to success. It took over 3000 experiments to invent the lead acid battery.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2009, 12:15:12 PM
Free energy

I agree ,except for this part.
"cvnc nvc vccvnbvcnbcvnbbvn v vc  cxvb xc bc bcv cv
 bc bcxvbcxv bcxv bcxvbcxxcvb cxv bxc bxcv bxcv bxcvbvcxbxc b xx vcxcv"

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 12:38:51 PM
Is there anyone in this thread that can explain a simple method to capture the flyback current and put it back in a battery?

Here's a helpful circuit:

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-inductkick-snub.html

But it needs an extra diode to keep the capacitor from discharging.

Steorn is right about ohmic losses. All the current that is flowing after the current has reached its maximum is lost irreversibly, as this portion cannot be recycled. This is why it's useful to preferably allow the action to happen during the still linear rise time of the current so most of the inductive energy can be recycled.

The Lindemann motor makes good use of this:

http://www.free-energy.ws/electric-motor-secrets/attraction-motor.html
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 12:57:36 PM
No its not a load for the battery, in reality , under NO LOAD , if the coil is a ideal one (no loss) it cost you nothing if you put a sin wave on it, what go in = what come back , its basic electronic for inductor with alternating current. but keep in mind that my example is for a NO LOSS coil , in real world you have lost because of the resistance of the wire but not as large as you think. Its why i said to you that you need a load on a motor to know the power you can extract form it and compare it with another one.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

So, according to you, you can take a coil and use it as an electromagnet without it draining the battery?  I don't think so, lol.  We're not talking about transformers here.  These are two different things we're talking about.

The motor in my example where the coil is continuously energized from the battery is our control experiment to let us know how long the battery can maintain the system at a certain RPM with a continuous output from the battery.

I guarantee you that it takes energy to run a conventional motor at idle speed with no external load on it that is greater than the small loss due to the resistance of the wire.  Even when it's at idle speed, it is converting electrical energy into mechanical energy and this mechanical energy produces a CEMF that is against the EMF driving the motor and this increases the amount of energy that is consumed way above the small losses due to the resistance of the wire.


GB

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 22, 2009, 01:24:10 PM
Here's a helpful circuit:

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-inductkick-snub.html

But it needs an extra diode to keep the capacitor from discharging.

Steorn is right about ohmic losses. All the current that is flowing after the current has reached its maximum is lost irreversibly, as this portion cannot be recycled. This is why it's useful to preferably allow the action to happen during the still linear rise time of the current so most of the inductive energy can be recycled.

The Lindemann motor makes good use of this:

http://www.free-energy.ws/electric-motor-secrets/attraction-motor.html

Thank you for the link. It is very interesting. Do you know of any circuits though that put the flyback current not in a seperate capacitor but back in the original battery?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: powercat on December 22, 2009, 01:53:36 PM
From TK
hmmmtoroid_2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0YZyI75bM
cat
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2009, 02:06:10 PM
Cat
There's something fishy about that Alsetalokin guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0YZyI75bM

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: powercat on December 22, 2009, 02:24:45 PM
Hi Chet
well his set up is different to Steorns, though TK is the only one posting test videos at the moment,
here is some more information from that video.

Quote
Alsetalokin, visiting scientist, shows the "cancellation" of EMF produced by a spinning magnet rotor in a toroidal coil when the coil is energized.

TK: This effect is claimed to be one of the key factors in an "Orbo Electromagnetic Interaction".

AL: Yes, that's right.

It certainly is interesting, and it's not that hard to demonstrate, it turns out. Not that anybody watching Sean's demo on Saturday would have gotten that impression. The Waterways demo did not illustrate the phenomenon that Sean wanted to show, as my 4 previous videos have demonstrated. However, this demonstration that I do here with a toroidal coil and a moving magnet rotor does actually demonstrate the effect.

As you can see, the moving magnets do generate EMF in the coil; when the coil is energised with a DC current, the magnitude of the EMF generated by the magnets decreases, as shown on the oscilloscope.

What is yet to be determined is whether the EMF is actually decreasing as a result of "shielding", or being smoothed out by the battery, acting much like a capacitor to smooth ripple.

This EMF in the coil is a consequence of the moving magnets; it is the CEMF that occurs when a motor is under power. You can see that the toroidal coil does "feel" the magnets; certainly the EMF in the coil is pronounced. The EMF indicated when the battery is in the circuit shows much less ripple from the moving magnets, and is mostly from the battery itself.

Whether this effect can actually be demonstrated in a motor driven by the toroid, with the motor under power, is a story for a different day.

So, Sean McCarthy, I suppose I owe you a mild apology. I thought Steorn had absolutely nothing of interest, much less of value, but at least this phenomenon is interesting.

Cheers, next round's on you.
End========================================

cat
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 02:24:52 PM
Thank you for the link. It is very interesting. Do you know of any circuits though that put the flyback current not in a seperate capacitor but back in the original battery?

Here's the code to import the circuit in the java applet:

$ 1 5.0E-6 12.050203812241895 50 5.0 50
v 432 320 432 144 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
l 240 144 240 320 0 1.0 0.0786318065125002
159 432 320 304 320 0 20.0 1.0E10
159 304 144 432 144 0 20.0 1.0E10
w 240 144 304 144 0
w 240 320 304 320 0
R 368 224 304 224 0 2 20.0 10.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 368 160 368 224 0
w 368 224 368 304 0
w 240 320 240 432 0
w 240 432 528 432 0
w 528 432 528 144 0
d 528 144 432 144 1 0.805904783
d 432 320 560 320 1 0.805904783
w 560 320 560 96 0
w 560 96 240 96 0
w 240 96 240 144 0
o 1 64 0 35 10.0 0.1 0 -1

applet link: http://www.falstad.com/circuit/

This will dump all the energy directly back into the battery. I also attached an illustration of it. The signal generator is meant for switching the switches, in orbo's case this is the optical signal.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 02:55:45 PM
Broli,

Nice work!

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 22, 2009, 03:31:35 PM
@Broli,
I like the circuit, but is it showing the back EMF flowing in the correct direction?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 22, 2009, 03:39:16 PM
here let me explain...

sm bn m vnbcvvn cvnb cvn bvcb ncvbnvcbn bcv vcv v  vcnb vcnb vcbcv bcvgfh cfgh cgfh cgjkjkg hukghiughkjhgkfuk fffffffffffhgh jgfvhj cgfj cgj gdc dcvjnbcmc bncnbv mgfvhjc jcgfhjchjdchj c dcg    fg gfcj fdg hjfcg jcfgng cn cv bvxvbvc nvcbnvcn bvcnbvcnb b vcvcbn cv

search for "joule thief"


pretty simple huh? lol

Show me a self running Joule Thief and I'll get excited but we are having fun arn't we?  Nice circuit, very efficient but can't keep the battery charged!  What a waste of bandwidth.... ;D

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 04:32:07 PM
Steorn official twitter writes, "The Steorn YouTube channel is now live. Please stop by and subscribe...  http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial (http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial)"

Does anyone see anything live at their youtube page?

Steorn official twitter,
http://twitter.com/steornorbo (http://twitter.com/steornorbo)


I agree there's no proof of Steorn claim yet. People are saying January will be the month of proof.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 04:57:54 PM
This post is not to show something that works, but rather to save people time by showing something that does not work. ~ last week I did some quick FEMM sims that showed cop>1, but did not take the time to do the Lua scripts to see for certain. After spending a week to build both the circuit & core I decided late last night to program the Lua script, because I was bored, to see if it really was cop>1. It's not, and here are the Lua scrip results,

--> Total consumed energy (J), Coil current 1 (A), Coil current 2 (A)
--> step 1
--> 0         0         0
--> 3.590518268139885e-006         0.01         0
--> 1.076837942257538e-005         0.02         0
--> 2.152567246223528e-005         0.03         0
--> 3.584987867452422e-005         0.04         0
--> 5.372477637093366e-005         0.05         0
--> 7.513137102932926e-005         0.06000000000000001         0
--> 0.0001000484567827349         0.07000000000000001         0
--> 0.0001284448334048866         0.08         0
--> 0.0001602705060022498         0.09         0
--> 0.0001954735644334508         0.09999999999999999         0
--> 0.0002340151264260043         0.11         0
--> 0.0002759037939155955         0.12         0
--> 0.000321184071531347         0.13         0
--> 0.0003699087571811861         0.14         0
--> 0.0004219585325872816         0.15         0
--> 0.0004768278325109655         0.16         0
--> 0.0005341002916773089         0.17         0
--> 0.0005935602750380198         0.18         0
--> 0.0006550542806126579         0.19         0
--> 0.0007183996895438364         0.2         0
--> 0.0007833678029607461         0.2100000000000001         0
--> 0.000849638268451597         0.2200000000000001         0
--> 0.000916856125808165         0.2300000000000001         0
--> 0.0009847808006294551         0.2400000000000001         0
--> 0.00105325813153989         0.2500000000000001         0
--> 0.001122061956599947         0.2600000000000001         0
--> 0.001191241765222169         0.2700000000000001         0
--> 0.001261180004139531         0.2800000000000001         0
--> 0.001332231676934107         0.2900000000000001         0
--> 0.001404621309551199         0.3000000000000001         0
--> 0.001478619406449006         0.3100000000000001         0
--> 0.001554832704586756         0.3200000000000001         0
--> 0.001633765584116694         0.3300000000000001         0
--> 0.001715480799122064         0.3400000000000001         0
--> 0.001800204919809737         0.3500000000000001         0
--> 0.001888760814127765         0.3600000000000002         0
--> 0.001981598461762843         0.3700000000000002         0
--> 0.002077719403497345         0.3800000000000002         0
--> 0.002175525771451832         0.3900000000000002         0
--> 0.002274293779069949         0.4000000000000002         0
--> 0.002373345530365636         0.4100000000000002         0
--> 0.00247124175808541         0.4200000000000002         0
--> 0.002565131284507889         0.4300000000000002         0
--> 0.002652725622921517         0.4400000000000002         0
--> 0.002733185015652727         0.4500000000000002         0
--> 0.002806758949279388         0.4600000000000002         0
--> 0.002874244030497155         0.4700000000000003         0
--> 0.002936528397946332         0.4800000000000003         0
--> 0.002994408155516128         0.4900000000000003         0
--> 0.003048561354976262         0.5         0
--> step 2
--> 0.003048561354976262         0.5         0
--> 0.003048218629603371         0.5         0.01
--> 0.003046901440529685         0.5         0.02
--> 0.003044600820428306         0.5         0.03
--> 0.00304130623557009         0.5         0.04
--> 0.003037007371840049         0.5         0.05
--> 0.003031692241737806         0.5         0.06000000000000001
--> 0.003025347949716552         0.5         0.07000000000000001
--> 0.003017953642556685         0.5         0.08
--> 0.003009485060872289         0.5         0.09
--> 0.002999937982725136         0.5         0.09999999999999999
--> 0.002989352491663576         0.5         0.11
--> 0.002977823784415115         0.5         0.12
--> 0.002965492795874145         0.5         0.13
--> 0.002952522235045185         0.5         0.14
--> 0.002939048984884102         0.5         0.15
--> 0.002925180703014064         0.5         0.16
--> 0.002910961960634052         0.5         0.17
--> 0.002896439339640948         0.5         0.18
--> 0.00288169003178506         0.5         0.19
--> 0.002866773995889459         0.5         0.2
--> 0.002851705835364595         0.5         0.2100000000000001
--> 0.002836496801753753         0.5         0.2200000000000001
--> 0.002821199139422801         0.5         0.2300000000000001
--> 0.002805914323231121         0.5         0.2400000000000001
--> 0.002790763022889252         0.5         0.2500000000000001
--> 0.002775826338041654         0.5         0.2600000000000001
--> 0.00276111730090713         0.5         0.2700000000000001
--> 0.002746614108469888         0.5         0.2800000000000001
--> 0.002732313346180004         0.5         0.2900000000000001
--> 0.002718231628920937         0.5         0.3000000000000001
--> 0.002704363354715092         0.5         0.3100000000000001
--> 0.002690669446889235         0.5         0.3200000000000001
--> 0.002677107131100328         0.5         0.3300000000000001
--> 0.002663630841766805         0.5         0.3400000000000001
--> 0.002650199186249004         0.5         0.3500000000000001
--> 0.002636790066656773         0.5         0.3600000000000002
--> 0.002623420339089672         0.5         0.3700000000000002
--> 0.002610145485391276         0.5         0.3800000000000002
--> 0.002597003431649619         0.5         0.3900000000000002
--> 0.002583969040181575         0.5         0.4000000000000002
--> 0.002570996225486628         0.5         0.4100000000000002
--> 0.002558050223878575         0.5         0.4200000000000002
--> 0.002545122719095612         0.5         0.4300000000000002
--> 0.002532227943781941         0.5         0.4400000000000002
--> 0.002519386648339695         0.5         0.4500000000000002
--> 0.002506611787103072         0.5         0.4600000000000002
--> 0.00249390789050716         0.5         0.4700000000000003
--> 0.002481275147127483         0.5         0.4800000000000003
--> 0.002468719057056149         0.5         0.4900000000000003
--> 0.002456259951179949         0.5         0.5
--> step 3
--> 0.002456259951179949         0.5         0.5
--> 0.002405462256831358         0.49         0.5
--> 0.002355458742805151         0.48         0.5
--> 0.002306435459827746         0.47         0.5
--> 0.00225867187622482         0.46         0.5
--> 0.002212246444778617         0.45         0.5
--> 0.002167137324896208         0.44         0.5
--> 0.002123287509743938         0.4299999999999999         0.5
--> 0.002080836940309113         0.4199999999999999         0.5
--> 0.00203992480474895         0.4099999999999999         0.5
--> 0.002000456592122689         0.3999999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001962367090143027         0.3899999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001925655869627818         0.3799999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001890374627222772         0.3699999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001856565265365677         0.3599999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001824232824152449         0.3499999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001793384383106103         0.3399999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001764030085054732         0.3299999999999999         0.5
--> 0.001736181959917234         0.3199999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001709854903110935         0.3099999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001685060199176545         0.2999999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001661798506485324         0.2899999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001640058697866304         0.2799999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001619820371196059         0.2699999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001601055982328429         0.2599999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001583726202893427         0.2499999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001567776037983496         0.2399999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001553137170970112         0.2299999999999998         0.5
--> 0.001539726281140034         0.2199999999999998         0.5
--> 0.00152743766576684         0.2099999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001516142172791192         0.1999999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001505685023380846         0.1899999999999997         0.5
--> 0.00149589724165913         0.1799999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001486584960608024         0.1699999999999997         0.5
--> 0.0014775084141841         0.1599999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001468279859006976         0.1499999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001458256342652655         0.1399999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001446958857792624         0.1299999999999997         0.5
--> 0.00143401817733061         0.1199999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001419219477244737         0.1099999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001402793386219292         0.09999999999999969         0.5
--> 0.001386012833198309         0.08999999999999969         0.5
--> 0.001370035808036354         0.0799999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001354984793985183         0.0699999999999997         0.5
--> 0.00134122842197862         0.0599999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001329225704211848         0.0499999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001319351584153604         0.0399999999999997         0.5
--> 0.001312153481479498         0.02999999999999969         0.5
--> 0.001307570024923967         0.01999999999999969         0.5
--> 0.001305280879241024         0.009999999999999691         0.5
--> 0.001305148774201166         0         0.5
--> step 4
--> 0.001305148774201166         0         0.5
--> 0.001267742420501036         0         0.49
--> 0.001230923166354812         0         0.48
--> 0.00119461638395876         0         0.47
--> 0.001158801850304672         0         0.46
--> 0.001123467244598066         0         0.45
--> 0.001088541848132292         0         0.44
--> 0.001053931269367919         0         0.4299999999999999
--> 0.001019553489462221         0         0.4199999999999999
--> 0.000985346153571138         0         0.4099999999999999
--> 0.00095128181858739         0         0.3999999999999999
--> 0.000917377609581669         0         0.3899999999999999
--> 0.0008836659869532686         0         0.3799999999999999
--> 0.0008501686788609103         0         0.3699999999999999
--> 0.000816912931046265         0         0.3599999999999999
--> 0.0007839494747557624         0         0.3499999999999999
--> 0.0007513532915734927         0         0.3399999999999999
--> 0.0007192098442373292         0         0.3299999999999999
--> 0.0006876087765101703         0         0.3199999999999998
--> 0.0006566193770842923         0         0.3099999999999998
--> 0.0006262972666842203         0         0.2999999999999998
--> 0.0005966933430658843         0         0.2899999999999998
--> 0.0005678464793179263         0         0.2799999999999998
--> 0.0005397899646925705         0         0.2699999999999998
--> 0.0005125528112680772         0         0.2599999999999998
--> 0.0004861627894751369         0         0.2499999999999998
--> 0.0004606545671803507         0         0.2399999999999998
--> 0.0004360886626383941         0         0.2299999999999998
--> 0.0004125512218290568         0         0.2199999999999998
--> 0.0003900737167018608         0         0.2099999999999997
--> 0.0003686461901923401         0         0.1999999999999997
--> 0.0003482625063669396         0         0.1899999999999997
--> 0.0003289193556166073         0         0.1799999999999997
--> 0.0003106147072878994         0         0.1699999999999997
--> 0.0002933473656752264         0         0.1599999999999997
--> 0.0002771203982077093         0         0.1499999999999997
--> 0.0002619406503524264         0         0.1399999999999997
--> 0.0002478149567788555         0         0.1299999999999997
--> 0.0002347503437721159         0         0.1199999999999997
--> 0.0002227540353909843         0         0.1099999999999997
--> 0.0002118324471779473         0         0.09999999999999969
--> 0.0002019900535321696         0         0.08999999999999969
--> 0.0001932305427804945         0         0.0799999999999997
--> 0.000185557393292687         0         0.0699999999999997
--> 0.000178973818975171         0         0.0599999999999997
--> 0.0001734827006454447         0         0.0499999999999997
--> 0.0001690865569702568         0         0.0399999999999997
--> 0.0001657874929460887         0         0.02999999999999969
--> 0.0001635871365176567         0         0.01999999999999969
--> 0.0001624866310459695         0         0.009999999999999691
--> 0.0001624866310459695         0         0


Basically there are two coils, inner & outer. Both outer coils are one. AC current going through coil 1 will *not* produce AC in coil 2. Same thing goes for the opposite. What this design is about is having coil 2 change the effective permeability of the entire core, which will effect coil 1. So you could think of this as modulated AM broadcasting where one changes the amplitude of the other, but the modulator by itself cannot induce AC without the signal.

In step 1 coil 1 is turned on and left on. step 2 coil 2 is turned on. step 3 coil 1 is turned off thereby collecting its energy. step 4 coil 2 is turned off and energy is collected.

Back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 05:12:42 PM
PL, I have no clue what you are demonstrating there. But what I was trying to show with the previous circuits was that the orbo can be much more efficient than it currently is. If Steorn claims it's already cop=2 for instance then imagine how much more effecieint it could be if you recycled the inductive energy during the on period.

But even that is unsure since I do not have the equipment to verify this myself. Perhaps I'm all wrong, and the long current maximum is needed. But if it isn't then a lot of electrical energy is waisted by letting the current surf the ohmic limit for quite a time period based on their scope. It would be much more efficient to let all the action happen when the current rise time is still linear. And just when it hits saturation point you open the switches so that the energy flows back to the battery.

Without a decent oscilloscope determining all these parameters can be near impossible.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 05:22:15 PM
Sean has said repeatedly that the orbo over unity is clearly predicted using classical physics, which is what FEMM uses. For myself, it's best to see something work using FEMM before spending the time & $ to build it.
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 05:27:19 PM
PL,

This may be a good read for you and others here about the various flux “threading” methods wherein newly created flux lines become “engaged” by the magnetic core without violating Ampere’s Circuital Law.

This improved flux model enables transformer theory to be modeled using the Classical Motional Electric Law (CMEL) ( emf = (v × B ) • L ) as well as Faraday’s Law and New Induction. In fact, it is shown that Faraday’s Law is just a special case of the CMEL and not a stand alone model of nature.

http://www.distinti.com/docs/classfluxan.pdf

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 05:34:15 PM
So, according to you, you can take a coil and use it as an electromagnet without it draining the battery?  I don't think so, lol.  We're not talking about transformers here.  These are two different things we're talking about.

The motor in my example where the coil is continuously energized from the battery is our control experiment to let us know how long the battery can maintain the system at a certain RPM with a continuous output from the battery.

I guarantee you that it takes energy to run a conventional motor at idle speed with no external load on it that is greater than the small loss due to the resistance of the wire.  Even when it's at idle speed, it is converting electrical energy into mechanical energy and this mechanical energy produces a CEMF that is against the EMF driving the motor and this increases the amount of energy that is consumed way above the small losses due to the resistance of the wire.


GB

Im tired a bit to repeat because you don't know enough in electronic and you don't seem to want to put some time to learn something. I told you that with a Ideal inductor , if you put a sine wave across it , the battery in a perfect world will get back what it put in , its not mysterious , its classical EE. IN real world there loss . I told you too that a rotoverter was a good example about a no load motor, do a simple search, there people who run motor at full idle speed (NO LOAD, I REPEAT, NO LOAD) for only 15/20 Watt with a simple modification to get more VARS, do you know what is VARS ?????. A motor with no LOAD don't show ANYTHING about how much torque it has VS power consumption , you need a load at it shaft.

Look again at this site, its in the middle of the page, http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/2.html there a PERFECT example of what i told you yesterday you will see what happen with a pure inductive load(ideal one) ALL GET BACK.

Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 22, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
This is all such total noncense!!!! Charge up a cap with the battery, remove the battery and see how long Orbo (rymes with horrible) will run before it stops running just off the cap.
This is a battery running a small motor- NOTHING MORE!!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 06:02:28 PM
Im tired a bit to repeat because you don't know enough in electronic and you don't seem to want to put some time to learn something. I told you that with a Ideal inductor , if you put a sine wave across it , the battery in a perfect world will get back what it put in , its not mysterious , its classical EE. IN real world there loss . I told you too that a rotoverter was a good example about a no load motor, do a simple search, there people who run motor at full idle speed (NO LOAD, I REPEAT, NO LOAD) for only 15/20 Watt with a simple modification to get more VARS, do you know what is VARS ?????. A motor with no LOAD don't show ANYTHING about how much torque it has VS power consumption , you need a load at it shaft.

Look again at this site, its in the middle of the page, http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/2.html there a PERFECT example of what i told you yesterday you will see what happen with a pure inductive load(ideal one) ALL GET BACK.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

You're confusing the issue.  Energy and power are not the same.  I could trickle a small current from a battery to a heavy load and it won't have any power, but the battery is expending it's energy source (the small current doesn't have a force on the load).  Since energy is a scalar quantity and we're dealing with scalar quantities for power calculation, it is missing the vector quantity associated with a force; as such it is only a simplification. Trying to infer unknown vector equations from scalar models is problematic at best.  The rules of nature explains the problems and difficulties encountered when attempting to deduce answers from conservation of energy techniques, http://www.distinti.com/docs/ron.pdf

Maybe you need to put some time into learning what is correct from what is not correct.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: powercat on December 22, 2009, 06:05:43 PM
From TK
hmmmtoroid_4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 22, 2009, 06:29:17 PM
Quote
From TK
hmmmtoroid_4c

Well, this shows the effect does exist.
The problem with using ferrite is you need to know which ferrite you are using.
Ferrite used in typical transformers will have an extremely high saturation point because this is good for transformers.
The ferrite that should work best would have a low saturation point. Or possibly not even use ferrite.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 06:54:54 PM
You're confusing the issue.  Energy and power are not the same.  I could trickle a small current from a battery to a heavy load and it won't have any power, but the battery is expending it's energy source.  Since energy is a scalar quantity and we're dealing with scalar quantities for power calculation, it is missing the vector quantity associated with a force; as such it is only a simplification. Trying to infer unknown vector equations from scalar models is problematic at best.  The rules of nature explains the problems and difficulties encountered when attempting to deduce answers from conservation of energy techniques, http://www.distinti.com/docs/ron.pdf

Maybe you need to put some time into learning what is correct from what is not correct.

GB



I sound like you like to mix thing but look at your question you asked me :

.... 
A coil is a load on the battery, is it not?
....

GB

My answer is still the same, NO , a coil is not a load because the reactive power is equal to the apparent power with a sine wave input so the true power will always be 0W IF its a ideal inductor, like i said in real world there always loss with the inductor since the wire is not a superconductor. Don't mix thing , i don't talk about motor i talk about inductor, your question is "IS A COIL A LOAD?". Do i need to past the link again so you can understand what we talk about again ? http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/2.html

Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: plengo on December 22, 2009, 06:55:20 PM
Freezer:

You can't just "pluck 'radiant energy' out of thin air" to advance your argument.  Sean says that more power is being returned to the battery by the return wire that connects to the battery.

Actually I did do the experiments.  I made the measurements that show that the energy in a pulse discharge from an inductor is less than or nearly equal to the battery energy that energized the inductor in the first place.  That means that Bedini's "radiant energy" is B.S.  I read his 1984 "Kromrey Convertor" 15-page treatise and I almost puked from how little sense he made when discussing electricity and batteries.

So why don't YOU do the experiments.  Hook up any Bedini motor or Joule Thief or whatever your favourite flavour of pulsing inductor circuit you want and measure the power supplied by the battery compared to the power you get from the pulsing inductor.  In all cases you will find the output power is less than the input power, and you produce heat.  The output power plus the heat will equal the input power.  "Radiant energy" is just a buzz word to get you excited and induce you to believe in something that's not there.  You can prove for yourself that it is not there if you really want to.

MileHigh

While you say the BEMF is less or close to equal to source energy that energize the coil is obvious, Bedini says that too.

Bedini clearly states in his forums at yahoo group and videos that there is NOTHING special about his SSGs and motors except that the "magic" happens in the battery. He states that the front end (the circuits) are totally common EE concepts but there is also some anoumalies presented but the battery is the OU creator.

One can easily test the load and charge process and see that there is not enough current going into the battery that could explain the charge being presented. Also the battery capacity increases with time. I know because I have done it over 200 times and it is thruth.

I would think if you tested his motors you should know that!

Fausto.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 07:08:09 PM


I sound like you like to mix thing but look at your question you asked me :

My answer is still the same, NO , a coil is not a load because the reactive power is equal to the apparent power with a sine wave input so the true power will always be 0W IF its a ideal inductor, like i said in real world there always loss with the inductor since the wire is not a superconductor. Don't mix thing , i don't talk about motor i talk about inductor, your question is "IS A COIL A LOAD?". Do i need to past the link again so you can understand what we talk about again ? http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/2.html

Best Regards,
IceStorm

You know in the examples I gave you that the coils would be expending energy in order to generate mechanical motion, thus a load.  You can't obtain mechanical energy without converting the electrical energy.  Even at an idle speed, the battery is losing quite a bit of energy due to the CEMF above and beyond the losses due to the resistance of the wire .

ENERGY AND POWER ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 07:17:04 PM
From TK
hmmmtoroid_4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo)

Thanks. That's about the only TK video I've seen that's void of strong skeptic opinions while containing useful data.

Anyhow, that effect is easily seen in FEMM.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 07:23:03 PM
You know in the examples I gave you that the coils would be expending energy in order to generate mechanical motion, thus a load.  You can't obtain mechanical energy without converting the electrical energy.  Even at an idle speed, the battery is losing quite a bit of energy due to the CEMF above and beyond the losses due to the resistance of the wire .

ENERGY AND POWER ARE NOT THE SAME THING!, so go take your power factor and through it out the window, because it is irrelevant in the examples I mentioned.

I told you to look at the rotoverter, there people who get same idle speed , 200/300 watt input at idle  become 15/20 watt for the same idle speed, you just need to change the power factor, THERE plenty of example all around the web, just ask Ash , he is a expert in that field. But we are not talking about TORQUE here , we talk about idle RPM as you said in your first post.So what is irrelevant is you comparison of 2 motor with NO LOAD on the shaft who mean ABSOLUTELY nothing about the torque it can give. What is important is the torque it can give for X power input, that's all , stop wasting your time with your idle speed comparison. you asked me a question to know if a coil is a LOAD and now you move onto something else loll at least i took time to answer both.

Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 07:30:30 PM
I told you to look at the rotoverter, there people who get same idle speed , 200/300 watt input at idle  become 15/20 watt for the same idle speed, you just need to change the power factor, THERE plenty of example all around the web, just ask Ash , he is a expert in that field. But we are not talking about TORQUE here , we talk about idle RPM as you said in your first post.So what is irrelevant is you comparison of 2 motor with NO LOAD on the shaft who mean ABSOLUTELY nothing about the torque it can give. What is important is the torque it can give for X power input, that's all , stop wasting your time with your idle speed comparison. you asked me a question to know if a coil is a LOAD and now you move onto something else loll at least i took time to answer both.

Best Regards,
IceStorm

I never said anything about Power or torque in my example.  I also never said the motors in my example were rotoverters.  My example was meant to figure out how long it would take a battery to discharge in a controlled experiment at a certain RPM.  It is the same as putting a resistor on a fully charged cap and seeing how long it takes to discharge across the resistor.  My example is a good way to figure out how much energy is in the battery so you can make a mechanical comparison instead of an electrical comparison.  Obviously you missed the entire point.  It is possible to have mechanical OU without having electrical OU.  If this is the case, then there may be methods and techniques to convert this mechanical OU into electrical OU or to improve upon the already electrical OU.  My method would be a good indicator if it is achieving its maximum electrical potential and if not, by how much it could possibly be improved upon.  Everyone focuses on electrical OU and forgets about mechanical OU.  You can have mechanical OU and still not be able to recharge a battery or capacitor if this additional mechanical energy isn't converted to electrical energy.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 07:44:12 PM
I never said anything about Power or torque in my example.  My example was meant to figure out how long it would take a battery to discharge in a controlled experiment.  It is the same as putting a resistor on a fully charged cap and seeing how long it takes to discharge across the resistor.  This is a good way to figure out how much energy is in the battery so you can make your comparisons.  Obviously you missed the entire point.

GB



Here you talk about 750 rpm , 2 motor with no LOAD on the shaft , one take 3 time the amount of the other one in power.Take your example and look at what i wrote about the rotoverter so Idle speed mean nothing  to evaluate the TORQUE (MECHANICAL POWER) because THERE NO LOAD,

If a motor runs @ 750rpm for 10 hours with drawing a constant current from a battery, then building a motor that runs @ 750rpm for 30 hours from a same type battery is cop = 3 in mechanical energy gained vs electrical energy expended.

You have gained 3 times more mechanical energy than what the battery is capable of producing.  The additional energy gained was mechanical energy and was expended in the additional 20 hours of mechanical motion instead of being converted to electrical energy. 
.....


GB

And here you talk about the coils in motor who act as load. if both motor is the same, first one is a rotoverter the second one is a normal one (both identical motor spec) , first one can be 50W idle and the second one 300W idle at SAME speed but the TORQUE it can deliver will not be the same because the PF is not the same, on the rotoverter one the VAR is bigger than the normal one, so less current input at the expense of torque.

If both motors have coils with the same load on the battery, then the RPM is relative in both systems and is not absolutely nothing.  A coil is a load on the battery, is it not?  This means both motors in my example have the same load!

GB

Now tell me how you can evaluate if motor 1 is better than motor 2 ? no one deliver any power , they just idle so current input is absolutly nothing.

Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 08:27:23 PM
IceStorm,

I'm not trying to figure out power or torque.  Power correction devices don't lower the amount of energy being consumed by a device, they help the watt hour meter to more accurately calculate the correct amount of energy used by a device.  The watt hour meter does not calculate energy consumed correctly and the end result is the consumer is billed for energy they didn't use.  The total amount of energy actually consumed is the same with or without the power correction device.  Calculating energy in vs energy out is not as cut and dry as you may think.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Cloxxki on December 22, 2009, 08:48:29 PM
If mass of a motor is great, and friction low, a slightly better battery or circuit can give hugely longer running times. Time will be spend more running the thing, than power is used to start up.
The other way around, a lightweight motor with high friction, that is more like a load. 10% more runtime, means ~10% more efficiency, or capacity.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 08:54:57 PM
Lets just give Steorn a chance to prove it. If they're a scam, then they have their day coming. If investors have given money without proof, LOL, geez, then that's going to be big lesson for them. I have not given Steorn a dime, and I would *NEVER* sign any NDA.

Supposedly January is the big month they're going to prove it.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: IceStorm on December 22, 2009, 09:52:52 PM
IceStorm,

I'm not trying to figure out power or torque.  Power correction devices don't lower the amount of energy being consumed by a device, they help the watt hour meter to more accurately calculate the correct amount of energy used by a device.  The watt hour meter does not calculate energy consumed correctly and the end result is the consumer is billed for energy they didn't use.  The total amount of energy actually consumed is the same with or without the power correction device.  Calculating energy in vs energy out is not as cut and dry as you may think.

GB

Again some more non sense, PF CORRECTION do lower the input power , that don't mean the load will get LESS power , that mean the INPUT POWER will be less , look here : http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/4.html and go to 2/3, look for :

"This correction, of course, will not change the amount of true power consumed by the load, but it will result in a substantial reduction of apparent power, and of the total current drawn from the 240 Volt source:"

And dont change your non sense by saying "I'm not trying to figure out power or torque" because you should look at this post your wrote, look at what is in bold:

If a motor runs @ 750rpm for 10 hours with drawing a constant current from a battery, then building a motor that runs @ 750rpm for 30 hours from a same type battery is cop = 3 in mechanical energy gained vs electrical energy expended.

You have gained 3 times more mechanical energy than what the battery is capable of producing.  The additional energy gained was mechanical energy and was expended in the additional 20 hours of mechanical motion instead of being converted to electrical energy. 


RPM at idle MEAN NOTHING , i showed you that with the analogy with the rotoverter for 2 identical motor , one with rotoverter modification and the order one normal, at IDLE the speed can be the same but the POWER consumption WILL NOT BE. so discharge your battery as you wich , that will never tell you if you are COP = 3 because THERE NO LOAD on the shaft.
Best Regards,
IceStorm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 22, 2009, 10:20:51 PM
If a motor runs @ 750rpm for 10 hours with drawing a constant current from a battery, then building a motor that runs @ 750rpm for 30 hours from a same type battery is cop = 3 in mechanical energy gained vs electrical energy expended.

If you converted only half of this mechanical energy that is gained (10hrs) into electrical energy, then you have COP = 1 in electrical energy gained vs electrical energy expended with 10 hours of additional mechanical momentum to keep producing this additional energy to keep it above unity.  There is no hidden source of energy being tapped in this system.  The additional source of energy is capturing all of the potential momentum instead of killing it like we've all been doing.

GB

@IceStorm,

Look at the two words in bold print starting each paragraph, the two "if's".  It was a hypothetical and was not based on a real result.  The entire post was based on a hypothetical.  The COP = 3 in mechanical energy was a hypothetical result and not based on a real world device.  This hypothetical can be carried out in the real world though, but the results will vary from device to device.  This hypothetical was to show you can have mechanical overunity while still draining the battery and not achieving electrical OU.

I'll let you have the last word on this because you are twisting and reading everything out of context while not grasping anything from what is written in my posts or in the link to the "allaboutcircuits" site.  You lack severely in "reading comprehension".  In addition to those reasons, it is off-topic from this discussion and I will not participate in hijacking this thread any longer.

Take care,

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 22, 2009, 10:45:22 PM
@IceStorm,

Try not thinking negative, always think positive!
Think, If this does not work, then what would it need to make it work.
When thinking positive, you can hope to see the light. To think negative and you are assured to see only darkness.
Everyone already knows it can't be done! But in time there is always one case that does not fit the norm.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 22, 2009, 11:16:35 PM
Lumen:

Quote
All cases huh?  So I guess you have built every single pulsing circuit that could ever be conceived and tested all these without success?  You are pretty damn good!

That is the attitude that is all wrong.  It's all about understanding what the circuit is doing.  This notion of looking for the "magic" pulsing circuit is wrong, and what is implicit in what you are saying is that you can go on testing different setups forever.  You just have to learn and apply your knowledge.

Quote
Sorry I don't do debunking, I build to make things work, not to prove things don't work, we have a team of debunkers for that, to tell us how it can't work, how it's not possible, and how it will never be done.  Same with people who said it was impossible to build a rocket and travel to the moon.

You build things to understand how they work, it is not a question of proving one thing or another.  Understanding is the key.

The "Flat Earth" argument is an old cliche.  The real people with understanding said it was possible to build a rocket and go to the moon, not the opposite as you are implying.  Same thing for powered flight.

Gravityblock:

Quote
Classical theory claims Intrinsic inductance is a linear function of wire length and independent of wire diameter. According to the classical understanding of inductance, if we construct two circular loops of wire, both with the same loop shape, but with different wire gauge, then both should have the same inductance. But this is not the case and can be seen in the results below.  Since the thickness of wire does affect the intrinsic inductance, then the classical model for intrinsic inductance is incorrect.

You are absolutely wrong here and the statement that you make in your first sentence is wrong.  You should check out the Hyperphysics web site.  I am will assume that you have never sat through derivations in a class room where you calculate the magnetic field at any distance from an infinite length of wire of radius r with a current i traveling through it, or what the magnetic field is  anywhere in free space for a loop of wire of wire radius r1 and loop radius r2.  If you haven't, chances are that stuff will blow your mind.  Your attempts to point out weaknesses in the classical model fall flat.

Quote
Also, the magnetic field around a moving charge is not toroidal or donut shaped as taught.  Simple experiments shows the magnetic field is spherical around the moving charges.  I could go on and on about how classical theory has it wrong and is incomplete also.  Classical theory can't even get the basic stuff right, and simple experiments clearly shows this.

You wish.  You are completely out of your league here and are completely off the mark.  This stuff is so well understood that it takes years of education to just understand the explanation for what's really going on.

Going back to Steorn, the "believers" as well as the people making all of the wild speculations about the magnetic effects, how many of them have made a comment about just using a capacitor to prove or disprove Steorn's claim?  Not many I don't think.

I challenge all of you to chime in, should Steorn use a capacitor in their demo or not?

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: kmarinas86 on December 22, 2009, 11:31:23 PM
Steorn is crap.

'Nuff said
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 11:33:22 PM
Just found out Sean has been making a lot of posts at his forum recently. Here are a few interesting posts regarding the technology,

Quote
Ok - I agree that a great way to see if the system has CEMF is to test it as a generator - and we will be including that in the next experiment.

As for there being current through the coils when we say its turned off - thats just nonsence, but again we will make the switch from the power supply a lot more clear in the next one.

As for shorter and longer pulses - I assume that you are reffering to induction losses through the interaction - and there are none (in fact there is a greater energy returned from the field collapse than there is energy put into the field creation) - but THAT is the next experiment, so lets see.

Quote
"Eddy currents in the core - how do you measure them"

Well you could just use a nonconducting core and then not have them at all.         

Quote
"I think the main basic thing people are waiting for is the input voltage/current along side the output voltage/current. I take it this will be included in 2010 demonstrations?"

Yes

Quote
"That vibration does have my attention over all the other claims."

Its the nature of the bearings that we are using.

Quote
"Will you be "redoing" the experiments before or after Christmas? (Never mind, I see you said January)"

Not sure on the date, but it will be prior to Jan 10th (we may do two experiments together - will have to look at the practicality of this).

Quote
Ok the first sequence of experiments are about showing that in eOrbo all the input energy goes to output as Joule heating (no back emf, no induction losses) and yet work is still done by the rotor. The second sequence is total input energy, total output energy and the energy of the system itself.

Quote
"Why have the demo "Orbo"s been changed out occasionally, was this due to "issues",,, or is that in some way a future part of the demonstration?"

Its been asked (and answered) - we made a call to use reed switches - they are across an inductive load and flyback dioide or not there is still a high failure rate.

Quote
"You've mentioned that the overall thermodynamic efficiency of the system is about 3X. Shall we take that to mean, that if 10W (avg./cont.) battery power input is measured, calorimetry would indicate a heat flow of 30W (avg./cont.)?"

It means that for the type of system shown to date, 1J of elec input will produce circa 3J of output (heat, work done by the rotor and electrical) - but again this has yet to be proven, and it will - but I will not open the Xmas presents early.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 22, 2009, 11:45:15 PM
A few more recent Sean quotes I missed in my last post,

Quote
"Can we expect some independent, 3rd party, validation of your device as a part of the demo in January?"

You sure can.

Quote
Ok what is rubbish about the video was the simple fact that this guy knows that there is CEMF present in his test, but hides it with the scale of his scope traces. So its not a rebuttal at all - its clearly someone playing games.

So does he have a point behind the sillyness - perhaps there are supporting methods that can be used to show that there is no CEMF, including but not limited to the current reversal that I believe he may have decided to leave out because perhaps its a bit more difficult to do a fraudulent debunk? - and indeed you will see these in the next experiment.

The difference of course in all this is what we are dealing with in the so called "rebuttal" is a simple method to debunk through deception - so be it - not a lot I can do about that - lets see if the fella can con the next version of the experiment - as I said it will be pretty amusing anyway,

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 23, 2009, 12:47:37 AM
There is an erroneous expression for the self inductance of a loop of diameter ‘a’ and wire thickness ‘b’ found in the book Classical Electrodynamics 3rd edition.  Reviewing the derivation we find that this expression is actually the mutual inductance between two parallel loops of radius ‘a’ separated by distance b.  Oooopsss, and it mis-leads the masses because nobody is able to think and have a mind of their own, lol.

Classical Electromagnetism predicts electromagnetic “Hot Spots” at the corners of rectangular loops. These Hot Spots are not seen in the lab. Consider a square loop of wire that contains a constant current. The current at the corners changes direction 90 degrees; this is effectively a changing current.  By applying classical electromagnetic equations, we derive the effect of this current change on a test charge located just above the corner.  Experimentation shows that there are no detectable corner effects. The spherical field completely cancels these corner effects.

The toroidal magnetic field of classical electromagnetism does not predict
the existence of longitudinal electromagnetic propagation. As such, the
classical models do not predict reception off the ends of a dipole antenna.
In fact, without longitudinal waves, the classical models are not even close to the measured radiation patterns.  The reason is that the classical models do not predict magnetic effects in the longitudinal direction because the Biot-Savart field model of magnetism is a transverse only model.

In the classical electromagnetic theory of light (Maxwell’s Equations) only
transverse electromagnetic waves are anticipated. Yet in all other media in
which waves propagate, they propagate in both longitudinal and transverse modes. Why does classical electromagnetism only predict transverse waves?  The answer is that classical electromagnetism views magnetism as a transverse only field phenomenon.  The spherical field model readily predicts wave propagation in both longitudinal and transverse modes.



GB





Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 23, 2009, 01:30:19 AM
Gravityblock:

I am not going to rebut your examples except to say that I am not aware of transverse waves being an issue.  When EM radiation propagates the electrical and magnetic fields are at right angles to each other.  So if "z" is the transverse direction because the electric or magnetic wave is traveling and oscillating back and forth in the direction of z, then the complimentary electric or magnetic wave can be aligned in any direction in the x-y plane.  Transverse waves are not anything special that I am aware of.

The determination of what the electric or magnetic field looks like (magnitude and direction) at any point in time and at any place in space is very well understood, but I am not a microwave engineer so I can't say much more than that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 02:16:55 AM
I'm not exactly sure what they mean by capturing more inductive energy than is put in. There are two possible cases:

1) When they capture the collapsing field more inductive energy is captured than used. From their scope traces we can estimate that the inductive energy is 1/5 of the whole pulse. While 4/5 is ohmic and irreversibly lost as heat. This would explain why Sean keeps mentioning the heat energy.

2) When they capture the collapsing field more energy is gained than inductive+ohmic combined. This feat would be very amazing in itself. As the mechanical energy becomes a bonus.

Can someone please forward this or bring it up on their forum to get an answer from them. It would be very interesting and enlighting to know which case they are referring to.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 23, 2009, 02:26:30 AM
Broli,

I didn't think they were capturing any of the flyback from the pulse to the toroidal coils.
I understood it to be the generator at the top that was recovering all the losses.

Recovering the flyback from the toroidal coils would be a plus if it is possible.


Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 23, 2009, 02:55:52 AM
Well, this shows the effect does exist.
The problem with using ferrite is you need to know which ferrite you are using.
Ferrite used in typical transformers will have an extremely high saturation point because this is good for transformers.
The ferrite that should work best would have a low saturation point. Or possibly not even use ferrite.

Meanwhile, nobody seems to notice the pink elephant in the room which is the four sets of three disk magnets below the coils backed up with some iron laminates and the extra large hub above which probably contains another toroid magnet and core.

Thane Heins ring a bell? Steorns next controversy will probably be a patent fight since this does not seem to look anything like the original.

God created whiskey to keep the Irish from taking over the world so the Irish drank the whiskey and then created Orbo. Even Hitler had something to say about that.

Hitler reacts to Steorn's demo and launch of Orbo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRk5ea5pA5Y&feature=related
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 03:00:28 AM
With this toroidal core saturation effect, setting muR to 1  one could also easily
build an overunity transformer with no moving parts.
Just make sure most of the magnetic flux from
a permanent magnet is attrated to the toroidal
coil´s ferrite, when the coil is not energized.
If you put an output coil into the airgap between
magnet and toroidal ferrite coil and only draw current
from it, when the toroidal input coil is not energized,
then you will have some kind of motionless orbo overunity transformer.

By the way, is it possible with FEMM to simulate also
BackEMF and CounterEMF in coils around iron ferrite cores ?
If yes, this could be modeled in FEMM too, to check for the best output.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 23, 2009, 03:47:20 AM
With this toroidal core saturation effect, setting muR to 1  one could also easily
build an overunity transformer with no moving parts.
Just make sure most of the magnetic flux from
a permanent magnet is attrated to the toroidal
coil´s ferrite, when the coil is not energized.
If you put an output coil into the airgap between
magnet and toroidal ferrite coil and only draw current
from it, when the toroidal input coil is not energized,
then you will have some kind of motionless orbo overunity transformer.

By the way, is it possible with FEMM to simulate also
BackEMF and CounterEMF in coils around iron ferrite cores ?
If yes, this could be modeled in FEMM too, to check for the best output.

Regards, Stefan.

I think you may even find two wires going up through the shaft that connect to a coil. E.g., Thane Heins only using toroidal coils instead of I cores. Optical switches switch when coil is shorted to get past hump and using both sides of a magnet in a pulse motor. Compression yields free energy as coil mass is converted into atomic energy.

Not sure that it has as much to do with saturation as it does with pulse compression. The compression accelerates mass which converts mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass.

I don't think Thane really understands his motor beyond a classic EM which is why he feels it violates Lentz law. Lentz law does not apply to an accelerated mass. Many law of physics can be violated with acceleration and why people feel they are impossible, or violate 2nd law when they wrongly apply 2nd law to an open system since mass is fuel source which opens the system.

All free energy devices use acceleration to convert mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass as I described in earlier post. Cavitation is a form of acceleration, pulse compression is a form of acceleration, a laser can be used to accelerate, vacuum tube accelerates, electromagnet accelerator coil accelerates using pancake and coaxial coil from Tesla, etc. It t is all so simple to understand once you let go of all the BS you were programmed with regarding zero point, eather and college level physics and see big picture of the forest.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 23, 2009, 04:18:47 AM
With this toroidal core saturation effect, setting muR to 1  one could also easily
build an overunity transformer with no moving parts.
Just make sure most of the magnetic flux from
a permanent magnet is attrated to the toroidal
coil´s ferrite, when the coil is not energized.
If you put an output coil into the airgap between
magnet and toroidal ferrite coil and only draw current
from it, when the toroidal input coil is not energized,
then you will have some kind of motionless orbo overunity transformer.

By the way, is it possible with FEMM to simulate also
BackEMF and CounterEMF in coils around iron ferrite cores ?
If yes, this could be modeled in FEMM too, to check for the best output.

Regards, Stefan.

I had the same thought, but I was thinking two toroidal coils and one magnet.
The field would draw to one toroid then the other, back and forth. Each time passing through two separate winding in the gap to generate power. Like switched reluctance.
At resonance in the toroidal coils, one would believe it should produce OU if the Steorn principal is correct.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 05:05:22 AM
Here you go, a new photo taken from the demo, one for the skeptics,  ;)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 23, 2009, 05:30:56 AM
Well Paul, the December demo was "not the real demo" and we are all supposed to tune in in January.  Perhaps "January" really means August 2011, that's how it usually works with these things.

Why didn't they just show the "real thing" a few days ago?  What have they been doing for the past three years?

They simply should have used a capacitor in parallel with a resistor.  The resistor would have been there to "burn off the free energy" if there really was any free energy to be found and prevent the capacitor voltage from going too high.  In reality, the capacitor voltage would have gone down without a resistor in parallel and that would have been the end of Steorn.

How come they didn't show battery out power and energy return power measurements?  All of that high-end measurement equipment and they couldn't do that?

What happened to the magnetic bearings?  What happened to the "real Orbo" that flopped in 2007?

The December Steorn demo was a Lucite extravaganza to hunt and fish for people exactly like you, but with money to "invest" in the company.

Steorn is going to use all of their new Lucite eye candy to show their non-technology at various trade shows and technology fairs, all in the hope of attracting new investor money.  They are just another Lutec.

Just think, all they are doing is showing is showing a lousy pulse motor, something people on this site have been doing for years.

Keep hoping!

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 23, 2009, 10:12:18 AM
Here you go, a new photo taken from the demo, one for the skeptics,  ;)

Quite a claim when there does not exist a scale that could measure the minute amount of mass that would be missing since there is so much energy within mass.

To suggest that energy comes from nowhere is as silly and baseless as the claim that are violating the conservation of energy when it cannot be proven by anyone.

You would need to accurately weigh that motor, probably run it for 10,000 years and then weigh it again and even then, the amount of missing mass would probably be too small to account for.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 10:24:54 AM
To suggest that energy comes from nowhere is as silly and baseless as the claim that are violating the conservation of energy when it cannot be proven by anyone.

That's wrong. Violation of CoE has been proven conclusively.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2009, 10:58:47 AM
Same old story, same old debates. Steorn has demonstrated nothing of value and there attempt to get credability fail with thier science council which evaluated their first attempt. Go back and look at the promisies re this demo for December. We will get to jan and then another delay.
I do not have the qualifications of MileHigh and many others, but I have seen dozens of devices worldwide in person that have made various claims. To date, (and some even had TUV certification) none have ever demonstrated overunity, free energy or could be closed looped. Can it be done...I am open minded. However to date it has not been achieved. When I evaluate technologies I get the best people I can find to assist.
Has anyone learnt any lessons from 2009 (Mylow was the most entertaining)
Have a great Xmas everyone.
Mark
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 11:08:16 AM
@markdansie,

Quote
Steorn has demonstrated nothing of value

Not so. Steorn just demonstrated practical elimination of back emf (violation of Lentz' law). That's big.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 11:44:39 AM
@markdansie,

Not so. Steorn just demonstrated practical elimination of back emf (violation of Lentz' law). That's big.

Omnibus is right and this shows,
that Mark is not qualified enough in EE to see this.

He should quit his job going around the world for his.

Anybody who hires Mark for this job wastes his money.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 11:45:31 AM
I do not have the qualifications of MileHigh and many others,

I didn't know you could have a qualification for spouting useless crap. MH has brought nothing of value to this forum in fact I'm surprised he's not put on read only because of his obstructive ways and zero productivity on this forum.  He denies everything without reason, he strategically obstructs progress of others and infests promising threads like a cancer.

Stefan ask yourself what value it has to let a blockhead like MH run lose on your forum.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 11:48:50 AM
@Reincarnate,
you don´t understand the difference of the December 19th demo to
their December 15th demo units.

The December 19th demo was a reconfigured Orbo ,
where they positioned the coils differently for easier viewing.

But it uses the same principle.

Watch all the videos again and it will get clear to you.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 11:58:24 AM
I didn't know you could have a qualification for spouting useless crap. MH has brought nothing of value to this forum in fact I'm surprised he's not put on read only because of his obstructive ways and zero productivity on this forum.  He denies everything without reason, he strategically obstructs progress of others and infests promising threads like a cancer.

Stefan ask yourself what value it has to let a blockhead like MH run lose on your forum.

Well, what MH is right about,  is the way Steorn is presenting these things...
Why didn´t they show additional measurements to prove it some more
now ?

Maybe this is their internal political decision to get this done this way ?

Well, maybe they just didn´t want to show now too much,
so we could not figure it out on our own and then
they would loose customers for their SDKB license signups ?

Well, we will probably see that in January 2010.

If not we will fiqure it out on our own.

I will keep an eye on MileHigh and his postings though...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 12:10:50 PM
Well, what MH is right about,  is the way Steorn is presenting these things...
Why didn´t they show additional measurements to prove it some more
now ?

Maybe this is their internal political decision to get this done this way ?

Well, maybe they just didn´t want to show now too much,
so we could not figure it out on our own and then
they would loose customers for their SDKB license signups ?

Well, we will probably see that in January 2010.

If not we will fiqure it out on our own.

I will keep an eye on MileHigh and his postings though...

Regards, Stefan.

Steorn is not here to please anyone of us. As promised they delivered their public demo by the end of the year, as promised to put their first presentation up, and probably as promised in a few weeks others will follow. "Skeptics" like MH are not giving sound advice, what they are doing is nitpicking and trying to break progress.

I suggested the capacitor method on their yt video because it's a sound suggestion, but even if they used it people like MH will just find the next "problem" why Steorn is bullshit. TK is the prime example of this. Within days he had a "replication" to debunk Steorn. When he upset people by it, he crawled back pretending nothing happened. Why don't these "skeptics" have double standards, why did he get away with it, why is his reputation not flushed down the drain. True skeptics should deny nothing and accept nothing untill personal experience says otherwise. People like MH are completely against this philosophy. "Debunk from the start and try to stop progress ASAP". It makes you wonder whether they lack attention in their real lives or are paid for this job. How anyone wants to stop a cause that will be so positive to the world is beyond me unless you are pure evil.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 23, 2009, 12:21:54 PM
hi, visited the waterways dublin centre yesterday. took photos. knock yourselves out.  click "sizes -> original". they're taken with iphone 3gs.  credit me (esa ruoho / http://www.lackluster.org / esaruoho@gmail.com ) if you use them. i see paul lowrance already took just the banners, and not the closeups. look at the closeups.
i've got 4 vids i'll post, but dunno if they'll be amazing or not. my first time recording video.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/sets/72157622929469887/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/sets/72157622929469887/) FLICKR PICTURES.
i had to pay 25$ to get a pro account, to be able to post these, so took a hit for you guys. either way, knock yourselves out, credit me and my site, cya! bye.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 12:56:31 PM
Hi Esa,
many thanks for the nice pictures.

Could you speak with the Steorn stuff there ?

Is it right, that the display Orbos still
use Reed relay switches for the coil current
switching ,
but the bit different  Dec. 19th Demo unit did use optocoupler-transistor switches
for the coil switching ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 02:22:18 PM
hi, visited the waterways dublin centre yesterday. took photos. knock yourselves out.  click "sizes -> original". they're taken with iphone 3gs.  credit me (esa ruoho / http://www.lackluster.org / esaruoho@gmail.com ) if you use them. i see paul lowrance already took just the banners, and not the closeups. look at the closeups.
i've got 4 vids i'll post, but dunno if they'll be amazing or not. my first time recording video.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/sets/72157622929469887/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/sets/72157622929469887/) FLICKR PICTURES.
i had to pay 25$ to get a pro account, to be able to post these, so took a hit for you guys. either way, knock yourselves out, credit me and my site, cya! bye.

Thanks for going the extra mile and posting those pictures!!!!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
I think you may even find two wires going up through the shaft that connect to a coil. E.g., Thane Heins only using toroidal coils instead of I cores. Optical switches switch when coil is shorted to get past hump and using both sides of a magnet in a pulse motor. Compression yields free energy as coil mass is converted into atomic energy.

Not sure that it has as much to do with saturation as it does with pulse compression. The compression accelerates mass which converts mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass.

I don't think Thane really understands his motor beyond a classic EM which is why he feels it violates Lentz law. Lentz law does not apply to an accelerated mass. Many law of physics can be violated with acceleration and why people feel they are impossible, or violate 2nd law when they wrongly apply 2nd law to an open system since mass is fuel source which opens the system.

All free energy devices use acceleration to convert mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass as I described in earlier post. Cavitation is a form of acceleration, pulse compression is a form of acceleration, a laser can be used to accelerate, vacuum tube accelerates, electromagnet accelerator coil accelerates using pancake and coaxial coil from Tesla, etc. It t is all so simple to understand once you let go of all the BS you were programmed with regarding zero point, eather and college level physics and see big picture of the forest.

Sure would like to know more about the Thain Hines device.  Link to site would be helpful.  Thank you.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 23, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
Broli:

Quote
I didn't know you could have a qualification for spouting useless crap. MH has brought nothing of value to this forum in fact I'm surprised he's not put on read only because of his obstructive ways and zero productivity on this forum.  He denies everything without reason, he strategically obstructs progress of others and infests promising threads like a cancer.

Stefan ask yourself what value it has to let a blockhead like MH run lose on your forum.

Broli I have had enough of this garbage from you.  My main interest is to help people get to the truth about their setups and I try to help them get there.  To say I have brought nothing of value to this forum is a complete and total lie.  I want this to stop from you, do you hear me?

It upsets you that I can look at someone's setup and give them good advice and explain to them what is going on from a technical perspective because it breaks the illusion that they are demonstrating free energy.  If somebody actually had a real device that actually worked, it would be a different story.

With respect to Steorn, they are either the first in the world to demonstrate free energy but they are going to take years and years to prove it, or they are just a con job to steal money from investors just like Lutec did.  The general consensus about Steorn is that they are a con job, and I was just pointing out in my posting all of the obvious problems with Steorn.

What is your opinion on simply using a capacitor as opposed to a battery?   Does this make sense to you?

Broli, I understand technology and energy 20 times better than you and I could spin circles around you with my eyes closed.  I want your attacking of me to stop right now, I have had enough.  You are just mean-spirited and upset and you don't want to hear a rational opinion about someone's setup because it breaks your fantasy about free energy and makes you unhappy.

Tough luck for you Broli and I will repeat:  I want you to stop attacking me and saying lies about me.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 02:49:08 PM
MH your fake puppy eyes won't work here. You are put on ignore by countless respected members on this forum for the crap you spew in every post just like the one you made now. You have no respect for others you have no respect for the science and you have no respect for this forum. GO AWAY you lowly piece of shit!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 23, 2009, 03:11:23 PM
I do have respect for others and you are just having a meltdown because I am telling you to stop.

I will repeat it again:  Stop it right now and regain your sense of composure.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 23, 2009, 03:16:26 PM
@MileHigh

We know that changing the battery to a capacitor would be proof of OU.
But there IS a problem!
The Steorn devices contain no control electronics, so in a real OU device, how long could the device run on a capacitor?

I think about 45 seconds would be about it. That don't sound like much of a display.
After all, what good is an over unity device that only runs 45 seconds?



Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 23, 2009, 03:33:02 PM
Broli
I like what Lumen said "stick with the positive"

Chet
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 03:40:29 PM
Hi all,

In a positive note and a question, can we assume that those toroidal coils have a very low permeability to allow them to switch the core off with that few turns coils on them?  With even all 4 coils in series, we arn't looking at more than .5 to 1 ohm I would say and peak current with a NIMH battery in the 1.2 to 1.3 amp range.  Ideas, comments from builders???

Ho Ho HO to alllllllll......
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 23, 2009, 03:48:32 PM
I understand technology and energy 20 times better than you and I could spin circles around you with my eyes closed. 
MileHigh

You understand technology and energy based on incomplete, misleading, inaccurate, contradictory, and deceitful theories.  I know the theories you base your knowledge on and they have all of the problems I just mentioned.  You are limiting yourself and others by holding on to those theories so dearly.  It's a real shame you're not able to think outside of what you've been taught. 

Go spin your circles with your eyes closed somewhere else.  Yes, it's very evident your eyes are closed and your mind has been blinded by this system of things.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: ramset on December 23, 2009, 03:58:17 PM
MH
Thinking outside the box
I sail boats,I used to laugh at guys that said you could sail faster than the wind
and then I found you could sail several times faster than the wind [6 or more]

Chet
Think outside your comfort zone
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 04:00:52 PM
One thing that's nice about youtube is you can filter negative comments (any comment with more thumbs down than thumbs up). That would be awesome to have such a mod on this forum!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 04:05:03 PM
Steorn said the only place they will consider requests is at their official Steorn YouTube site. So far I see 3 comments requesting a capacitor instead of battery. The more people who request the better. You can ask your request here,

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=S5nae_I_Mus&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DS5nae_I_Mus#
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 04:08:59 PM
One thing that's nice about youtube is you can filter negative comments (any comment with more thumbs down than thumbs up). That would be awesome to have such a mod on this forum!

It would also be nice if all kept on topic and "kept their minds right".....I sail boats, but my hunter won't go as fast as the wind due to hull speed limitations but that is off topic.  OK gang, how bout the permeability of the core question??????   
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 23, 2009, 04:25:59 PM
@MileHigh

We know that changing the battery to a capacitor would be proof of OU.
But there IS a problem!
The Steorn devices contain no control electronics, so in a real OU device, how long could the device run on a capacitor?

I think about 45 seconds would be about it. That don't sound like much of a display.
After all, what good is an over unity device that only runs 45 seconds?
This really is the heart of the debate. If the device is really OU then it would run indef. off the cap. the reason that they are using a battery instead of the cap is that the device is not OU.
Its absolutly amazing to me and (I am sure everyone else) that they are not using a cap nor do they have any instrumentation to measure and confirm power in and power out. This should be beyond obvious.
I can not understand why every post on this thread is not asking that?
This is simply another ploy to keep the investor money rolling in,
It seems to me that MileHigh and myself seem to be the only posters raising the flag here. Even a five year old could see what there up to!!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 04:38:00 PM
@billmehes,

They a company and they are protecting themselves. Stefan explained it already. How else are they gonna earn money. This is the unfortunate way our system functions.

What they have given away already is substantial info about what they call "their technology" (which in fact is something vell known as an idea, as far as I can see) -- violation of Lentz' law which is eqivalent to having an OU device. If that doesn't wet your appetite no amount of evidence with or without caps will be sufficient to you.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 23, 2009, 04:45:35 PM
@billmehes,

They a company and they are protecting themselves. Stefan explained it already. How else are they gonna earn money. This is the unfortunate way our system functions.

What they have given away already is substantial info about what they call "their technology" (which in fact is something vell known as an idea, as far as I can see) -- violation of Lentz' law which is eqivalent to having an OU device. If that doesn't wet your appetite no amount of evidence with or without caps will be sufficient to you.
Come on Omni there reason for being is to prove OU. You are right this how they raise money. Its only OU if power out is more than power in. Since they are claiming OU then this is what they must prove to be happening. They are the ones making the claim.   A cap or measurement of input power to output power would put this all to rest and they would receive more money than even they could comprehend. Its Lutec all over again. They guys are masters of misdirection. They thread is so Mylow like as the most obvious questions are not being asked.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: shruggedatlas on December 23, 2009, 04:59:01 PM
Come on Omni there reason for being is to prove OU. You are right this how they raise money. Its only OU if power out is more than power in. Since they are claiming OU then this is what they must prove to be happening. They are the ones making the claim.   A cap or measurement of input power to output power would put this all to rest and they would receive more money than even they could comprehend. Its Lutec all over again. They guys are masters of misdirection. They thread is so Mylow like as the most obvious questions are not being asked.

I agree, it does not make any sense to hide the ball as far as proof.  If Steorn wanted to make money off the SKDB, etc., then the thing to hide is not the proof of overunity, but everything else.

Instead, what they did is explain in basic terms how their invention works, while hiding the proof that it actually works.  Hey, if you want people to sign up for the SKDB, do the opposite.  Hide as much as you can about HOW the device works, but be absolutely crystal clear on your proof that it does in fact produce overunity.  That is how you wet someone's appetite to plunk down for an SKDB subscription!

I think the answer is obvious.  They cannot demonstrate the impossible, so they demonstrate the possible and claim the impossible.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:01:32 PM
It isn't at all clear that they will get even more money if they reveal everything at once. All business is shady, has secrets, manipulates and so on. That's the nature of business. Otherwise everybody will be equally wealthy and that wealth differential won't exist. If you and I are angry at this kind of manipulation we should be 100 times more angry at the even greater manipulations of corporate culture we're sunk in. I'm amazed that they even showed that much.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: billmehess on December 23, 2009, 05:08:26 PM
It isn't at all clear that they will get even more money if they reveal everything at once. All business is shady, has secrets, manipulates and so on. That's the nature of business. Otherwise everybody will be equally wealthy and that wealth differential won't exist. If you and I are angry at this kind of manipulation we should be 100 times more angry at the even greater manipulations of corporate culture we're sunk in. I'm amazed that they even showed that much.
 
I sure agree with you on most of this but what really have they show? Its all smoke and mirrors.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:17:52 PM
I sure agree with you on most of this but what really have they show? Its all smoke and mirrors.

Why smoke and mirrors? They showed practical constancy of V and I at all conditions of the experiment where according to Lentz' law there shouldn't have been one.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 23, 2009, 05:20:58 PM
I too would like to see the unit run off of a capacitor.  But Steorn says they will reveal the reason for the battery in the future.  So I must assume there is a reason for it.  One that I can think of is this:

The Steorn demo devices may not be able to generate enough electrical energy to replace the electrical energy needed to "switch" the toriodal coil to saturation.  This is due to the fact that they are not re-capturing the electrical energy that is used to switch the coils.  That energy is not being looped back to the battery and is lost (mostly as heat?).  Likewise, the work of the rotor in overcoming mechanical friction and wind resistance is also expending energy that is not recycled to the battery and is lost (again as heat).

So the system may still be OU but not able to run without an input energy source.  Still, they may be getting more energy out than in, and that is still OU.  The demo units are in this example an energy amplification device, but not a self running device.

Those of us that will only except the self running device as proof of OU might ask why they did not go that route.  I would argue that you could do either and prove OU technology.  I for one am fine with an energy amplification display as proof.  And maybe that is the simplest design that they could show, ie. the design with the smallest number of parts that could be claimed to house fraud, and the easiest to instrument to show more energy out than in.

Steorn has said that their technology can be demonstrated in a purely mechanical fashion as well as this electrical demo model.  Maybe these demo units can be reconfigured to show both, and ultimately a self runner, etc.

Just thoughts.

M.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:29:29 PM
@mondrasek,

I agree with all you're saying. I too would be satisfied to see this as an energy amplifier, never mind self-runner (would be good but isn't crucial for the scientific conclusion I'm seeking). Paradoxically they are excellently equipped to demonstrate energy amplifications at a blink of an eye (almost). This is one of the best endowed OU experiments I've ever seen. Too bad the corporate spirit stands in the way. So, if you're a real scientist you're poor and cannot demonstrate it properly because of lack of funding (you'll be fired if you try to do it with the equipment from your day job) but if you're funded as a corporate entity you cannot demonstrate it properly because of the company requirements. Sticky wicked.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 05:35:15 PM


The Steorn demo devices may not be able to generate enough electrical energy to replace the electrical energy needed to "switch" the toriodal coil to saturation.  This is due to the fact that they are not re-capturing the electrical energy that is used to switch the coils.  That energy is not being looped back to the battery and is lost (mostly as heat?).  Likewise, the work of the rotor in overcoming mechanical friction and wind resistance is also expending energy that is not recycled to the battery and is lost (again as heat).

So the system may still be OU but not able to run without an input energy source.  Still, they may be getting more energy out than in, and that is still OU.  The demo units are in this example an energy amplification device, but not a self running device.


M.

Exactly, I totally agree.
As they don´t recycle back the BackEMF from the toroidal coils yet,
their output from the generator coils is probably lower than the input,
so in this crude model they can not show selfrunning with just a cap.

But I believe them, that all the output which is finally comverted to heat is bigger than
the total electrical input, so it is a OU evice.
But to measure this total heat output is pretty complicated and could
only be done with a very special and precise calorimeter.

So it is better first to scale this effect up with bigger magnets and toroidal coils
and recycle the inputed toroidal coil energy via the BackEMF and
then it could get selfrunning, if the losses are minimized.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:46:25 PM
.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
Stefan,

It would be interesting and pretty straightforward to see the input VI product integrated over a certain period and compare it with the output VI product integrated for the same period. This they can do as we speak with this kind of oscilloscope. As for calorimetry, they can use a Seebeck calorimeter which at their level of funding they can acquire or rent without a problem. These are mostly games they are playing and that's because of investors involved, a company that has to be run and many other factors in the corporate world. In a way I can understand them seeing all this negativity, envy and sheer animosity directed at Steorn, aside from what the corporate world requires.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 05:50:14 PM
If the energy comes from ambient, then the calorimetry method might not work.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 23, 2009, 05:59:09 PM
If the energy comes from ambient, then the calorimetry method might not work.

Calorimeter will help to determine the energy balance. It will be equally as curious if there's a disbalance as deficiency (anti-OU) -- energy will be destroyed. Don't think that's the case, though.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 23, 2009, 06:04:11 PM
This is a long post and I hope it is a good read.  Permeability is the magnetic conductivity of a material.  A higher permeable core will have a greater attraction for the rotor magnets than a low permeable core (I hope I got this right).

Now let's take a look at the "Expanding Field Model".  Let's assume a new flux-line begins as an infinitesimal small loop around the primary-wire. Since loops can not overlap or cross, this new loop must physically displace pre-existing loops outward when it is created.  Therefore magnetic fields must expand from, or contract to, the source wire.  This expanding field method is the only way that a magnetic field can expand (or contract) without violating Ampere’s Circuital Law.

In classical electromagnetic theory, it is common to talk about expanding and collapsing magnetic fields; however, this phenomenon is only addressed in the following simplistic terms: When the current is large, the magnetic field is large; when the current is small, the field is small. Classical electromagnetism does not discuss the manner in which a field expands, or contracts. The mechanism of field expansion and collapse is the concept for the Expanding Field Model. This model shows that flux expands and contracts through free-space with an actual real velocity which depends upon a number of factors.

To illustrate the expanding flux method, consider Figure 1 below showing the toroidal system at steady state. In this diagram, only one turn of the primary is shown for simplicity. The primary winding is shown relatively far away from the core for the purpose of examining the behavior of the flux near the primary. Since Ampere’s Circuital Law must not be violated, there must be flux between the primary-wire and the core as represented by the violet/thick flux-loop.  Each flux-loop is shown as a different color to aid in the discussion.  “Thicker” loops indicate higher magnetic field intensity (flux-lines/area).

We begin by considering the system prior to the increase in primary current as shown in Figure 1.  At this moment, there is a constant current in the primary which is responsible for the steady state magnetic field represented by flux-loops engaged by the core (blue/thin) and flux-loops near the primary which have not touched the core (violet/thick).  "G" is the secondary.

When the primary current increases in Figure 2, new flux-loops (red/thick) are created near the primary-wire which then displace the violet flux-loops out. As the violet flux-lines displace, they expand in perimeter which causes their intensity to decrease (represented by the diminished line thickness of the violet loop). When the flux-line expands to the point where it touches the core, the “engagement” process begins. The “engagement” process continues as the remainder of the flux-loop is drawn into the core.  The black arrows in the diagram represent the flux velocity.
                                                                       
In the engagement process, the right violet loop (inside the core) simply expands across the center as shown in Figure 2. Since, the left violet loop can not pass through other loops, it must therefore swing around the primary to the left or right (like a door slamming shut). When steady state is achieved, the violet flux-loops are completely engaged by the core (we are assuming an ideal core).

This method preserves the integrity of the classical flux model and Ampere’s Circuital Law; however, it shows that the flux-lines “cut” the secondary on their journey to engage the core.

The permeability of the core affects the number of flux lines that will pass into the space contained by the secondary when the primary current increases.  It is not hard to see that with increased core permeability, more flux-lines pass into the interior of the secondary for any given increase in primary current.

I hope this is helpful in replicating a Lenz free motor or even a motionless OU Generator.


GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 23, 2009, 06:18:05 PM
The design was to show a simple OU device. Using a capacitor makes it much more complicated.
Now you will need something to prevent the capacitor from overcharging or it will run for about 45 seconds before it winds up and the capacitor explodes and everyone is running around thinking "I cant breathe with that smell" and others are thinking "O-my gawd, I got stuff in my eyes and it burns" and people get trampled and cut from the broken glass as they stampede through the door.

Or they could probably add a zener diode to regulate the voltage.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 06:23:01 PM
This is a long post and I hope it is a good read.  Permeability is the magnetic conductivity of a material.  A higher permeable core will have a greater attraction for the rotor magnets than a low permeable core (I hope I got this right).

Now let's take a look at the "Expanding Field Model".  Let's assume a new flux-line begins as an infinitesimal small loop around the primary-wire. Since loops can not overlap or cross, this new loop must physically displace pre-existing loops outward when it is created.  Therefore magnetic fields must expand from, or contract to, the source wire.  This expanding field method is the only way that a magnetic field can expand (or contract) without violating Ampere’s Circuital Law.

The permeability of the core affects the number of flux lines that will pass into the space contained by the secondary when the primary current increases.  It is not hard to see that with increased core permeability, more flux-lines pass into the interior of the secondary for any given increase in primary current.

I hope this is helpful in replicating a Lenz free motor or even a motionless OU Generator.


GB

Thanks GB, finally some meat in the noise!!  It will be interesting to hear their description of their "Lenz-less" GENERATOR as this is the crux of the question.  An efficient motor as shown, is helpful but the generator is most important.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 06:25:12 PM
The design was to show a simple OU device. Using a capacitor makes it much more complicated.
Now you will need something to prevent the capacitor from overcharging or it will run for about 45 seconds before it winds up and the capacitor explodes and everyone is running around thinking "I cant breathe with that smell" and others are thinking "O-my gawd, I got stuff in my eyes and it burns" and people get trampled and cut from the broken glass as they stampede through the door.

Or they could probably add a zener diode to regulate the voltage.
I would pay money to see that happen!! Actually just pay to see voltage increase on cap till it hit zener voltage and on and on and on!
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: The Observer on December 23, 2009, 06:40:10 PM
Gravity,

You state...
Quote
Permeability is the magnetic conductivity of a material. 
A higher permeable core will have a greater attraction for the rotor magnets
 than a low permeable core (I hope I got this right).

You did get this right... and wrong.

Let me explain.

The whole magnetic conductivity thing is either bullshit or a poor description of what is happening.

               A piece of Ferro has a two important properties,

               1. It's Magnetic Coercivity which relates to how easily the dipoles in Ferro turn.
                     (note... dipoles are ferro atoms with unmatched electrons in outer shell... mini coil)

                    A Magnet has a High Coercivity.. once those baby's are in place they stay there.
                    A Piece of Iron has Low Coercivity... the dipoles turn easily and effortlessly.

               2. It's Magnetic Permeability... which relates to the density of atoms and their magnetic power.
                   
                    A piece of Iron turns into a Magnet in the presence of another magnetic field !!!
                    (note... domains of atoms previously "randomly" oriented, now all point in the same direction)

                    For Example... A coil around a piece of Iron has 5000 times the magnetic field than without Iron.
                         Therefore the Magnetic Permeability of Iron is 5000. !

There is nothing being conducted...the alleged magnetic field that gets conducted... the coil's,
                                                                                                                                                              actually gets amplified !!!           

I started a thread on this subject entitled     Magnetic Permeabilty, Why isn't anyone tallking about this !!!!
       
                    I hope you check it out...          http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4831.0

Regards,
              The Observer
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2009, 07:24:34 PM
Omnibus is right and this shows,
that Mark is not qualified enough in EE to see this.

He should quit his job going around the world for his.

Anybody who hires Mark for this job wastes his money.
I never prented I was qualified but if your read carefully I employ people on contracts who are including Physisists, engineers or what ever the skill set is requiried on the job. I do have expertise in Hydrogen and to a lesser degree in magnetic motors. The point is I do save people in some cases million of dollars by not investing in technology that cannot live up to false claims. Some of these technologies have even had high level engineering certification.
Sadly as mentioned most turn out to be smoke and mirrors run by con men or self deluded individulas. Sometimes they disapeer (normally just before the arrest warrent is issued) or they get tied up in litigation.
I gather you are the new Sterling Allen. I have a simple question..of all the threads that have started here over the years..How many have claimed your overunity prize?
Sadly I have seen people invest their life savings into these snake oil salesmen that profess overunity. So Stephan...put your money where your mouth here or rather than character assinate me tell people here and now if you are so sure to invest in Steorn. Actually the more I get character assisinated the more work I tend to get offered which is great.
There is howver a body of people and work that is working on many aspects of alternative energy production and in some case possible overunity. They rarely visist forums like these.
I also ask how much assistance have you ever given to people in your own forum? I have financially supported some or provided resources or personel with qualifications to help them along. There have even been testimonials in your forum to that effect.
Up until now I have had a lot of respect for you in providing this forum and allowing both sides of the argument to be heard. It is now sad you are blinded or prejudiced by your own belief system or desperation to want to believe. Do me a favour...list every new thread and claim that was made this year re overunity in 2009 and then a one sentance outcome. Then rank them on how many people they succed in (Mylow would rank high) We both know that exercise will result in over 99% leading nowhere.
Finally , there are many good people here, and on going projects (Winsonali for one). As far as Steorn goes....con men. many other more qualified people than me have also reached the same conclusion.
PS for every one topic that hits these forums I can assure you there is 10 times more out there happenning both legitimately or non. I could post some video's of devices that would have you  ttally convinced and fooled. I remeber one this year that after we busted the inventor we could not figure it out how he did the con on a particular video and he kindly confessed and showed us. he then drove of into the sunset with his new mercedes and a few hundred thousand dollars of investors money and still being sort by police. Did the people who hired me (and my team) waste their money...no they saved millions.
I guess there is a role for everyone. perhaps I found mine. So Stephan...how much are you willing to invest in Steorn? Mark
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 23, 2009, 07:43:30 PM
Hi Mark,
sorry, my comments to you were a little too harsh I guess.
Sorry about this.

Well, I don´t agree how Steorn is running their company and what they
have done in the past, as you can read here in the older postings.
For their past doings I was a very skeptic about them and their old
Orbo and how they managed all their old demo, etc...

But now I guess they might have something valid with their
new eOrbo.

But that does not mean, that I jump now onto their bandwaggon and
invest all my last money with them.

I will wait and see, what they will present in January.

I would rather try to build a solid state unit on this effect myself...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2009, 08:22:28 PM
@Stefan
I too was a little bit harsh on you so I apologise. I do have great respect for you and enjoy following different threads on this forum. I also have great respect for many contributors and on going projects.
I guess we will all have to wait till January to see what Steorn comes up with. Given their past I am not too hopefull.
I would feel blessed if I had 5% of the knowledge of people like MileHigh, but I am always willing to admit I do not. However like I said I always surround myself with people who do when working on projects. My role is as a facilitator and to protect investors from being ripped of by testing claims.
Please have a great Xmas
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 09:05:29 PM
Hi all,

In a positive note and a question, can we assume that those toroidal coils have a very low permeability to allow them to switch the core off with that few turns coils on them?  With even all 4 coils in series, we arn't looking at more than .5 to 1 ohm I would say and peak current with a NIMH battery in the 1.2 to 1.3 amp range.  Ideas, comments from builders???

Ho Ho HO to alllllllll......

 Permeability in the case of the orbo is meaningless. A relative permeability of 200 or 1 000 000 will probably give the same torque and will need the same current. The magnet is emitting a certain amount of flux, both cores will be able to capture most of it about equally. The most crucial part is amperage not permeability or core saturation. The magnet can be seen as a very strong coil, what needs to be done is finding an equivalent amperage and amount of turns to cancel the field of this magnet, wether you choose 1000u core or 1milu the amperage to cancel the field will remain almost equal.

So when picking a good material anything above 200 and is non conductive is good. The only property that should be inspected is coercivity, this property should be as low as possible as it has no use in the orbo besides heat loss.

To sum it up:

-Anything above 200 relative permeability gave the same force attraction in my simulations.
-Use a soft magnetic material that doesn't retain magnetic strength after the field is gone.
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 09:29:32 PM
broli's right except he exaggerated a bit. The field from the magnet in the eOrbo must go through air as well, so the cores effective permeability can be on the order of 10 for a good toroid core. A lot of core has permeability far less than 10, such as cores made from powdered iron, so it can make a difference in the magnetic attraction between the core and magnet.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 23, 2009, 09:51:20 PM

 Permeability in the case of the orbo is meaningless. A relative permeability of 200 or 1 000 000 will probably give the same torque and will need the same current. The magnet is emitting a certain amount of flux, both cores will be able to capture most of it about equally. The most crucial part is amperage not permeability or core saturation. The magnet can be seen as a very strong coil, what needs to be done is finding an equivalent amperage and amount of turns to cancel the field of this magnet, wether you choose 1000u core or 1milu the amperage to cancel the field will remain almost equal.

So when picking a good material anything above 200 and is non conductive is good. The only property that should be inspected is coercivity, this property should be as low as possible as it has no use in the orbo besides heat loss.

To sum it up:

-Anything above 200 relative permeability gave the same force attraction in my simulations.
-Use a soft magnetic material that doesn't retain magnetic strength after the field is gone.

Thanks for the info. We do have some thinking people out there.

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: allcanadian on December 23, 2009, 10:23:22 PM
@broli
Quote
Permeability in the case of the orbo is meaningless. A relative permeability of 200 or 1 000 000 will probably give the same torque and will need the same current. The magnet is emitting a certain amount of flux, both cores will be able to capture most of it about equally. The most crucial part is amperage not permeability or core saturation. The magnet can be seen as a very strong coil, what needs to be done is finding an equivalent amperage and amount of turns to cancel the field of this magnet, wether you choose 1000u core or 1milu the amperage to cancel the field will remain almost equal.

If you honestly believe that the properties of the components has little or no relevance to the operation of this device or any other for that matter then I am afraid life will be very hard for you. I have found that in fact---everything matters and nothing should ever be considered as irrelevant. This is the difference between knowledge, understanding and success versus blaming others for a lack of the former.
Regards
AC
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 23, 2009, 10:30:36 PM
@broli
If you honestly believe that the properties of the components has little or no relevance to the operation of this device or any other for that matter then I am afraid life will be very hard for you. I have found that in fact---everything matters and nothing should ever be considered as irrelevant. This is the difference between knowledge, understanding and success versus blaming others for a lack of the former.
Regards
AC

AC, I was giving a straightforward answer to k4zep. You are correct and everything I say might be wrong, but on the same terms we need a starting point based on logic, after that we can experiment to our heart contents until we can make leprechauns magically appear from black holes  ;D . Isn't that better than endless speculation without starting somewhere?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 10:39:29 PM
 :D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 23, 2009, 10:45:36 PM
Official Steorn twitter now says, "Finished up for Christmas - back in January with more live events and experiments"
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 23, 2009, 10:47:28 PM
Official Steorn twitter now says, "Finished up for Christmas - back in January with more live events and experiments"

yep, 23rd was the last day..  and as tachoman said, there's gonna be more  experiments (and maybe measurements too, thats what he seemed to be saying) in january.. too bad i can't visit it..

hartiberlin you said something but i can't remember what i was supposed to respond to.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 23, 2009, 10:51:12 PM
Hi Esa,
many thanks for the nice pictures.

Could you speak with the Steorn stuff there ? Is it right, that the display Orbos still
use Reed relay switches for the coil current
switching ,but the bit different  Dec. 19th Demo unit did use optocoupler-transistor switches
for the coil switching ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

tachoman used the words "reed" and "switch" when he was talking about  the orbo demonstrations.
didnt speak to any staff, just asked tachoman what he was doing, and listened to him answer other people's questions.
i'm a bit not sure if i should upload video of him talking, but i'll upload it for myself for archiving purposes and see who else i should give it to. lets see. (im not sure if its allowed to just randomly film someone and push him  online, to be seen by steorn skeptics and antiskeptics -- would i get into trouble? i guess i'm allowed to show it to like a friend i know, or something..)
either way, im still uploading.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: wings on December 23, 2009, 11:28:27 PM
a parametric circuit that operate the coil to OU ?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/largcoil.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/parabifc.htm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 23, 2009, 11:46:40 PM
You only need enough permeability to contain most of the flux in the core.  A stronger magnetic field will require a higher permeable material.

A higher permeable material will require more amps from the pulse to eliminate the magnet from being attracted to the core in order to eliminate the CEMF.  This is the reason to keep the permeability as low as possible according to the strength of the magnetic field.

This is what I suggest:

1)  Find out what the maximum attraction force is for the least permeable material.  If there is no maximum attraction force, then find the best ratio ( I doubt this will be the case though).

2)  Match this permeable material with a magnet with a field strength that saturates this core, but not to the point where there is stray flux outside this core ( we want nearly all of the flux to be contained within the material).

3)  Find the distance the magnet is no longer attracted to the core.  This distance will be the radius we will need to wind our toroid.  This will also affect the decision we make in step 1.  We want maximum attraction force with the least amount of distance before it starts to attract. This allows our pulse to be shorter while gaining the most momentum.

4)  The smaller the surface area is for the core, the shorter the pulse will need to be.  The surface area of the core will need to be taken into account in step 1.

5)  Send a quick pulse to the coil with the least amount of amps to cancel the magnet from being attracted to the core.

6)  Correct and improve on the above

7)  Stop reading and do it!


Edit:  Wings, those links look interesting.  Thanks


GB
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2009, 01:33:23 AM
This is a concept for a toroid meg generator.
Every other toroid coil would be energized as a set to allow the field from the two large disk magnets to flow through the cores of the toroid coils that are off.
Then the alternate set of toroid coils would be energized and the previous set would be turned off.

The cores of the off toroid coils would become the core for the outer windings.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 24, 2009, 01:43:25 AM
You only need enough permeability to contain most of the flux in the core.  A stronger magnetic field will require a higher permeable material.

A higher permeable material will require more amps from the pulse to eliminate the magnet from being attracted to the core in order to eliminate the CEMF.  This is the reason to keep the permeability as low as possible according to the strength of the magnetic field.

This is what I suggest:

1)  Find out what the maximum attraction force is for the least permeable material.  If there is no maximum attraction force, then find the best ratio ( I doubt this will be the case though).

2)  Match this permeable material with a magnet with a field strength that saturates this core, but not to the point where there is stray flux outside this core ( we want nearly all of the flux to be contained within the material).

3)  Find the distance the magnet is no longer attracted to the core.  This distance will be the radius we will need to wind our toroid.  This will also affect the decision we make in step 1.  We want maximum attraction force with the least amount of distance before it starts to attract. This allows our pulse to be shorter while gaining the most momentum.

4)  The smaller the surface area is for the core, the shorter the pulse will need to be.  The surface area of the core will need to be taken into account in step 1.

5)  Send a quick pulse to the coil with the least amount of amps to cancel the magnet from being attracted to the core.

6)  Correct and improve on the above

7)  Stop reading and do it!


Edit:  Wings, those links look interesting.  Thanks


GB
 

Right on GB, Now I know at least one other person understands what is going on!!! With neo 48's, my lowest u torroid attracts from about 3/4" away and with a u over 200, about 1.5" on my synthetic clock bearings....something has gotta give. I have 6 different toroids and all in the 40 to 200u + range,  Need to get some with a u in the 1-10 range, will take about a week or so to get.  its a delicate balancing act.  We don't have to totally shield the core but the better, the more output.  Too much inductance and it won't switch fast enough, too little, and not enough shielding.  I give Stoern kudos on his simple motor, ingenious.  There doesn't appear to be much back emf due to dual magnets and wiring of coils, but there certainly is inductive kickback but it just adds to the total shielding effect.  Have the basic electronics to switch with hall effects/FET's or IGBT's.  Just have to get the coils right.  Will be most interested in the No-Lenz generator section, hope they don't dwell too long on the motor.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 01:48:44 AM
Hi lumen,

Interesting design. BTW, what software was used to draw that?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2009, 01:56:40 AM
Paul,
I used Mechanical Desktop. I use that and NX all day at work so it only took me a few minutes to draw it up.

I think it may represent what is going on in the Steorn device, but with no moving parts.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 24, 2009, 01:57:11 AM
hi, here's some video i posted on vimeo.
http://vimeo.com/8358720 (http://vimeo.com/8358720)
http://vimeo.com/8356820 (http://vimeo.com/8356820)

and 2 more (shorter, less informative) vids coming out. just check the account. i use this account to post anything in, so don't be surprised if you end up watching me make a green smoothie.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 24, 2009, 02:07:26 AM
@k4zep:  I think you're right about the balance being of the utmost importance in this system.

@lumen:  Excellent concept to possibly manifest a working toroid meg generator into existence.  This is interesting and I'll have to take a good look at it.

@broli:  Thanks for your circuit and the simulations on the permeability and the information you posted.

@esaruoho:  Nice high quality videos.


This is great stuff!


GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 02:17:30 AM
Paul,
I used Mechanical Desktop. I use that and NX all day at work so it only took me a few minutes to draw it up.

I think it may represent what is going on in the Steorn device, but with no moving parts.

Nice, it would take me ages to draw those wires in Blender 3D, but I'm just a beginner.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 24, 2009, 03:03:53 AM
lumen,

I just realized your meg design is similar to broli's "Constant flux DC motor/generator" thread, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8461.msg214777#msg214777

It's not the same, but I see some similarities between the two designs.  Instead of having it rotate, you replaced the rotation with every other coil being on/off and switching between them to simulate the rotation.  We may be on the right track here.  I like the concept.


GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 24, 2009, 03:37:51 PM
GB, k4, lumen, broli, etc...

Thanks guys!  I was concerned no one was going to give this a go anytime soon!  Learning all the new (to me) info on magnetic properties and the different available ferrites was frustrating my personal quest of how to (mentally) optimize the eOrbo demo design.  And the solid state transformers are way beyond my limited electrical/magnetic knowledge.  So I was hoping those with the expertise would start to play and post...  Most appreciated!

I had feared it would be a long frustrating wait until after the holidays to when Steorn gets back to us or releases Clanzer et. al from their NDAs.

I'm still hopefull TK will present more of his video experiments soon as well.

Exciting stuff.  Exciting times.

Thanks again.

M.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 24, 2009, 04:15:42 PM
Hi Stephan,

I have been following the YouTube video #1 from Steorn but pulled my questions on that site as it seems that they give out very little technical information.  The video answers a lot of questions and I suspect your analysis is very correct.  There very obviously is BackEMF and little or no CounterEMF due to the toroidal coil construction. 

I had lots of problems with the design at first as I know that there is virtually no magnetic field external to a close coupled toroid coil and could not figure out how it could drive the rotor.  Finally realized it was simply a Adams motor (I assume everyone knows what a Adams motor is and how it works, if not Google it) with NO CEMF due to the toroid coil design.  It was also immediately apparent that you could recover most of the BEMF to a fast recharge the battery/supply with surprising results. 

IF you put a bridge rectifier across the coil network and drive the coils with a voltage low enough to not turn on the diodes during the pulse  (around 1.4V for a 4 diode bridge or higher if multiple diodes used in the legs of bridge) you then can recover the BEMF back to the battery.  You end up with resistive losses and very short BEMF pulses if diodes are fast enough and battery accepts a fast pulse recharge.  Thus you end up with a very efficient motor, Not powerful but super efficient in its own funny way.  Their estimate of COP around 3 for the power input vs. rotor mechanical output after all is accounted for is probably close and as seen in the Adams motor.  A standard pulse generator only has to make up for the actual resistive losses (10%?), charging losses (20-40%) air drag and bearing losses and you have a OU or super efficient device. A Super Cap should be much more efficient as a power supply than the battery used as there would be no recharging losses in the Cap. 

That they have not been able to utilize a solid state switching device is a puzzle considering the amount of money spend on this device.  There are many switches that have a very low ON resistance, are very fast devices for switching efficiency and fast recovery diodes that should work with no problem.  Anyway, I'm having fun working with this new twist.  It will take time to build one.  When you use NEO's with close coupled fields, the device must be robust to say the least. 

Happy holidays to all,
Ben

Hello,

I'm very interested in understanding one of the setups you mentioned on overunity.com about capturing flyback current. You stated the following. Could you please go into more detail and explain this setup to me? I would appreciate any help you can provide. I would like to build this circuit. I'm interested in powering an electromagnet from a battery and recapturing the flyback when the circuit opens.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
interestedinou

 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 24, 2009, 04:32:36 PM
Show me a self running Joule Thief and I'll get excited but we are having fun arn't we?  Nice circuit, very efficient but can't keep the battery charged!  What a waste of bandwidth.... ;D

Ben


Would you mind explaining the circuit you mentioned that could harvest flyback current?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 24, 2009, 04:39:40 PM
Lumen good work. I thought I was the only one thinking of that.

I've been doing equations for the past three days to try to show output. I'm having trouble with the output coil equations. I know standard coil equations. But how can I calculate the amps in the output coil if the toroid is saturating and un-saturating, in say 1/1000th of a second. If the magnetic field (0.46T) generated by a coil (in response to the external magnet) around a 2000u permeable material is created by 0.02 amps of current, is that saying multiply the amps times the frequency(1000 times per sec) to get amps in one second? I do get confused at times. I hope this question doesn't look entirely stupid.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 04:40:12 PM

Would you mind explaining the circuit you mentioned that could harvest flyback current?

Here's the link,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551)

His images are self explanatory, as it shows the path of current during the steps.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2009, 06:51:00 PM
Staffman,
Quote
I've been doing equations for the past three days to try to show output. I'm having trouble with the output coil equations. I know standard coil equations. But how can I calculate the amps in the output coil if the toroid is saturating and un-saturating, in say 1/1000th of a second. If the magnetic field (0.46T) generated by a coil (in response to the external magnet) around a 2000u permeable material is created by 0.02 amps of current, is that saying multiply the amps times the frequency(1000 times per sec) to get amps in one second?

It would be very difficult to calculate anyway since you can't know the field actually flowing through the core from the permanent magnets.
You could calculate the required energy to saturate the toroid coil's core if you know the core material and the ratio of on time to off time (50%), but the output coil current flowing during the off time, is a function of the field flowing through the cores from the permanent magnets which is actually unknown since not all the field would flow through the cores.
 The interesting part, is this area can be improved by better design, so at what point does it reach OU if ever?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 24, 2009, 07:59:33 PM
@k4zep:  I think you're right about the balance being of the utmost importance in this system.

@lumen:  Excellent concept to possibly manifest a working toroid meg generator into existence.  This is interesting and I'll have to take a good look at it.

@broli:  Thanks for your circuit and the simulations on the permeability and the information you posted.

@esaruoho:  Nice high quality videos.


This is great stuff!


GB

Hi GB.

Getting close on my proof of concept motor.  With Honney doooos, running around on Xmas Eve, time is short.  Right now, only have two pairs of magnets N/S orientation top to bottom.  Quad-filiar coil is 180T, each coil on Red form is 560 uH, when in QF mode, only have 12uH total all 4 coils @ 12.5 ohms total on coil.  Core is crap.  Interesting enough, in generator mode only about 1 mv pp, excellent balance.  Could trim coils so totally balance inductance but not till I get one to run. 

Using a A1101 Hall effect into a 2N7000 driver to a IRF1405 output.  Perfect square wave to coil.  with only 12uh measurable inductance, will Still shock the crap out of you if across the coil, have to shunt with diode across coil to keep under contro..  Extended run with it but not quiet running yet.  Even @ 18VDC pulses, core is not saturating....arrggghhhhh.  Anyway, having fun.  Sure wish I had 4 GOOD low u forms! 

To all the folk who want to know how to collect back EMF/kickback...go to Bedini School Girl Forum, Build one of their simple pulse motors, worth a thousand words.   I simply do not have the time to teach right now. 

Picture below.
Ho Ho Ho to all.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 24, 2009, 09:00:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4M-A6Fg3EE

In this recent video of the demo you can see during 15-20 sec mark, a very clear animation of the device. You can see that there are total 16 magnets and 8 coils. If you enable HD mode you may even see the wiring.

Its my guess that only one magnet and one coil should be enough to check if its OU. You don't even need to collect the BEMF back into the power source (cap or battery or anything). Simply assume that you have 90% of energy back every pulse, in your calculation. Thats the first and crudest step. All the best to all of you :)

BTW: In his later video TK has explained the working principle very nicely, read the video description on the right. Strangely he has changed his tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 24, 2009, 09:08:09 PM
Hi GB.

Getting close on my proof of concept motor.  With Honney doooos, running around on Xmas Eve, time is short.  Right now, only have two pairs of magnets N/S orientation top to bottom.  Quad-filiar coil is 180T, each coil on Red form is 560 uH, when in QF mode, only have 12uH total all 4 coils @ 12.5 ohms total on coil.  Core is crap.  Interesting enough, in generator mode only about 1 mv pp, excellent balance.  Could trim coils so totally balance inductance but not till I get one to run. 

Using a A1101 Hall effect into a 2N7000 driver to a IRF1405 output.  Perfect square wave to coil.  with only 12uh measurable inductance, will Still shock the crap out of you if across the coil, have to shunt with diode across coil to keep under contro..  Extended run with it but not quiet running yet.  Even @ 18VDC pulses, core is not saturating....arrggghhhhh.  Anyway, having fun.  Sure wish I had 4 GOOD low u forms! 

To all the folk who want to know how to collect back EMF/kickback...go to Bedini School Girl Forum, Build one of their simple pulse motors, worth a thousand words.   I simply do not have the time to teach right now. 

Picture below.
Ho Ho Ho to all.

The low voltage generation is interesting. I think this is why they said almost 100% cancellation. In practice this is impossible as you need identical magnets and precise component positioning for 100% cancellation. But an advantage of orbo is that the induced emf can be either backwards or forwards to the applied current from battery. This might seem strange but there's some logic behind it. The same reason why EMF cancels in series hooked toroid with opposite windings.

Nice setup btw.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 24, 2009, 11:22:44 PM
Here's the link,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551)

His images are self explanatory, as it shows the path of current during the steps.

Is that the circuit he mentioned that uses the diodes or bridge rectifier to dump the energy back into the battery?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: polarman on December 24, 2009, 11:23:19 PM
 ;D OK   Merry Christmas   ;D    I hope Steorn Is the way!!!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2009, 11:26:30 PM
k4zep,
Quote
Even @ 18VDC pulses, core is not saturating....arrggghhhhh.

I guess using ferrite from a transformer is not so good?
I was thinking of just making a core using some 1010 steel wire. Just wind it up on a form to make a core of any size.

It should make a core with high permeability and low saturation.
The idea of winding all that copper around it though, just don't sound like that much fun. Not after watching the toroid winding machines on youtube.

 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 24, 2009, 11:35:51 PM
The idea of winding all that copper around it though, just don't sound like that much fun. Not after watching the toroid winding machines on youtube.

Amen to that brother. Imagine a world where you can print any device, machine or component. Certain open source 3d printers have just made the baby steps towards that.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 11:37:10 PM
Is that the circuit he mentioned that uses the diodes or bridge rectifier to dump the energy back into the battery?

It's the only one I've seen posted here. Let me know if you find another. Cool circuit.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 24, 2009, 11:40:44 PM
It's the only one I've seen posted here. Let me know if you find another. Cool circuit.

He's talking about the bridge rectifier circuit Steorn is using. I have noticed that some people have missed this fact.

But Steorn has a simple generator on top of the Orbo motor which generates conventional AC which is rectified into DC and fed back into the battery. This is the mechanical energy capturing part.

The circuit I posted is just a way to recycle the inductive energy part of the toroids.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 11:51:00 PM
Steorn top circuit is probably simple since it's just rectifying from a the coil output, so they only need some low Vf schottky diodes.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 12:08:42 AM
Hi All,

Merry Xmas,  Stoern MOTOR ONLY replication is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE

It is the most basic drive I could build but it does work, it accelerates and there is NO measurable field around the toroid.

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 12:17:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE)

Nice. I wonder if Steorn's January demos will replace the relays with transistors.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 12:29:20 AM
Nice. I wonder if Steorn's January demos will replace the relays with transistors.

Thanks Paul,

There is no reason not to use electronics package except that they are using such a low voltage source for drive motor but a small converter or piggyback front end power supply could fix the electronics package.

It is amazing what you learn (and I am still learning) when you build a motor.  Now to build a nice one!  Will take several weeks to get all parts together, do research on LV coils, etc. Cut plastic, bearings, etc etc etc.  But will build several more.  Probably take several try's to get it going right.

I wondered why I saw sparks on the video of their unit on the 1.5V battery, understand now.  There is a hell of an inductive kickback from the coils, diode takes care of that.

I couldn't have built it without all the input from the many people who post on this list, the videos, the pictures, TK's video. etc., and listening and watching and looking very carefully at what was there.  Nothing like hands on electronics for 55 years.

Merry Xmas, 

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 25, 2009, 12:45:07 AM
Hi All,

Merry Xmas,  Stoern MOTOR ONLY replication is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE

It is the most basic drive I could build but it does work, it accelerates and there is NO measurable field around the toroid.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Congratulations old friend! It looks like you are the first independant person to replicate and confirm the validity of Steorn's pulse motor drive system/technology. Excellent work and well done! I am sure there will be much more to come. The mind boggles with the possibilities but one does wonder, since it has been a long time coming indeed, if the proverbial cat has been let out of the proverbial bag...

Merry Christmas to all.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 25, 2009, 01:02:04 AM
@k4zep,

Thanks Ben for the vid. Great job. Is it possible to show the voltage trace at higher resolution (the higher the better) and put weight on the rotor to see if there would be even a slightest back emf? Thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 01:23:16 AM
@k4zep,

Thanks Ben for the vid. Great job. Is it possible to show the voltage trace at higher resolution (the higher the better) and put weight on the rotor to see if there would be even a slightest back emf? Thanks.

Hi OB,

Been working on this since 6:00 a.m., worn out.  But yes, I can show higher resolution but there is just no coupling between the coil and the magnets (well 1 mv generated CEMF) which is zilch.  I'll try to show voltage across coil and current in coil tomorrow.  Just too worn out tonight.  Funny with virtually all the inductance in the coil canceled with the filar design, there is still a hell of a INDUCTIVE kick back like a normal coil but nothing from the external magnets....It would appear that the coil as far as rest of the motor is concerned is just sitting out there doing nothing.  There is virtually no back or CEMF.   As a generator, it only induces 1-2 mv in the coil due to the core being covered/immersed in the coil. Now when the field collapses in the filar coil, it will zap you with inductive kickback!!!!.  It needs a diode across the coil to shunt it back into the coil and add efficiency to the motor.

Thats all for now.
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 01:41:06 AM
Ben,

Once again, nice job! When you get a chance, could you place a DC battery along with an inductor in series with your large toroid while the magnets are spinning and show the a scope trace off voltage across the toroid? The reason for adding the inductor is to help block as much AC going into the battery so you can see the AC voltage produced by the magnets due to the toroid effective permeability changing from the magnets.

This might be revealing what I've seen in FEMM for a long time. I believe Steorn claim is legit, but I don't think it's a simple as it appears here. Indeed there would be no bemf on a perfectly uniform toroid, but this design is an entirely different animal, where the issue is a change in effective permeability.

So once again I think the excess energy would come from magnetic viscosity.

Anyhow, I think you guys will be surprised when you see how the magnets induce AC voltage on the toroid when there's current flowing through the toroid.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 01:42:41 AM
Hi OB,

Been working on this since 6:00 a.m., worn out.  But yes, I can show higher resolution but there is just no coupling between the coil and the magnets (well 1 mv generated CEMF) which is zilch.  I'll try to show voltage across coil and current in coil tomorrow.  Just too worn out tonight.  Funny with virtually all the inductance in the coil canceled with the filar design, there is still a hell of a INDUCTIVE kick back like a normal coil but nothing from the external magnets....It would appear that the coil as far as rest of the motor is concerned is just sitting out there doing nothing.  There is virtually no back or CEMF.   As a generator, it only induces 1-2 mv in the coil due to the core being covered/immersed in the coil. Now when the field collapses in the filar coil, it will zap you with inductive kickback!!!!.  It needs a diode across the coil to shunt it back into the coil and add efficiency to the motor.

Thats all for now.
Ben

Hello Ben,

I responded to the private message you sent me.

I appreciate you responding.

If you get an opportunity please respond back.

Thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 02:33:32 AM
Ben,

Once again, nice job! When you get a chance, could you place a DC battery along with an inductor in series with your large toroid while the magnets are spinning and show the a scope trace off voltage across the toroid? The reason for adding the inductor is to help block as much AC going into the battery so you can see the AC voltage produced by the magnets due to the toroid effective permeability changing from the magnets.

This might be revealing what I've seen in FEMM for a long time. I believe Steorn claim is legit, but I don't think it's a simple as it appears here. Indeed there would be no bemf on a perfectly uniform toroid, but this design is an entirely different animal, where the issue is a change in effective permeability.

So once again I think the excess energy would come from magnetic viscosity.

Anyhow, I think you guys will be surprised when you see how the magnets induce AC voltage on the toroid when there's current flowing through the toroid.

Hi Paul,

One of many things to try.  I believe you are wanting me to bias the coils through an inductor with a separate isolated supply and then look at the resultant AC that develops across that inductor.  Probably easier to energize the main coil and then AC couple to the coil and spin the magnets and see if there is external field excitation of the core when energized at various levels of current in the coil.  Mechanically, due to the angular mechanics of core/magnet interface, you might see something if the orientation is there.  The real question then is if there is modulation of the inductance, does it have any net effect on the motor or is just an ac anomaly internal to the coil if it does not saturate the coil but remains in a somewhat linear portion of the cores permeability window.  Just a thought, perhaps electromagnetic or magnetic bias of coil to shift it into optimum switching window for optimum operation.  Sheesss, hope that makes sense.

As for magnetic viscosity, one of many possibly good theories out there.  Perhaps you would like elaborate on that theory so I can understand what I am looking for.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 03:40:33 AM
Does the following show the back EMF going in the correct direction? I am considering building this setup. I really need to know.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8411.0;attach=40150;image

Here's the code to import the circuit in the java applet:

$ 1 5.0E-6 12.050203812241895 50 5.0 50
v 432 320 432 144 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
l 240 144 240 320 0 1.0 0.0786318065125002
159 432 320 304 320 0 20.0 1.0E10
159 304 144 432 144 0 20.0 1.0E10
w 240 144 304 144 0
w 240 320 304 320 0
R 368 224 304 224 0 2 20.0 10.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 368 160 368 224 0
w 368 224 368 304 0
w 240 320 240 432 0
w 240 432 528 432 0
w 528 432 528 144 0
d 528 144 432 144 1 0.805904783
d 432 320 560 320 1 0.805904783
w 560 320 560 96 0
w 560 96 240 96 0
w 240 96 240 144 0
o 1 64 0 35 10.0 0.1 0 -1

applet link: http://www.falstad.com/circuit/

This will dump all the energy directly back into the battery. I also attached an illustration of it. The signal generator is meant for switching the switches, in orbo's case this is the optical signal.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 03:47:50 AM
Probably easier to energize the main coil and then AC couple to the coil and spin the magnets and see if there is external field excitation of the core when energized at various levels of current in the coil.

That would a lot better if you don't mind adding a secondary coil. I have no idea how many turns it would have to be in order for your scope to pick up the AC over noise.
 
 
 

As for magnetic viscosity, one of many possibly good theories out there.  Perhaps you would like elaborate on that theory so I can understand what I am looking for.

Oh, I don't want to bore you with this stuff. It's the same old stuff I've worked on for years,
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance)
 
It's interesting that Steorn has also mentioned magnetic viscosity as being a key ingredient to Orbo. IMO there's definitely something very sensitive going on with their design, far far more than a permeability motor. Have you seen how much the eOrbo rpm varies. It's crazy. Something that seems very difficult and sensitive to capture, and IMO Steorn's got it.
 
 
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 04:04:00 AM
Does the following show the back EMF going in the correct direction? I am considering building this setup. I really need to know.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8411.0;attach=40150;image

Could someone look at the image attached and tell me if the flyback is flowing in the right direction?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 04:12:58 AM
@Broli,
I like the circuit, but is it showing the back EMF flowing in the correct direction?

Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Mr.Entropy on December 25, 2009, 05:05:19 AM
I have 6 different toroids and all in the 40 to 200u + range,  Need to get some with a u in the 1-10 range, will take about a week or so to get.  its a delicate balancing act.  We don't have to totally shield the core but the better, the more output.
Hey k4zep,

That's backwards.  You need a core with much higher permeability so that you can saturate it with less current.  J or W ferrite (U = 5000 or 10000) would be nice.

Congrats on getting that motor up so fast.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 05:53:46 AM
Paul,
Quote
Have you seen how much the eOrbo rpm varies.

Do you think it's something special, or just the reed switches welding or corroding from the current.
Seems like they could build metal bridges that could change the timing and then burn away again after another few hundred thousand connections.

I think the toroid coils on edge to the twin magnets is important to the OU operation.

The single row design that k4zep is using will show some voltage waveform on the coils by spinning the rotor. If there was a balanced pair of magnets with opposite polarity on the rotor, there could be no waveform generated.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 06:16:25 AM
Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.

Lumen,

Can you please tell me if the flyback current is flowing in the right direction in that diagram?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 06:19:54 AM
Paul,
Do you think it's something special, or just the reed switches welding or corroding from the current.

Not sure, but the Steorn tachoman in that awesome video recently posted in this thread basically said he's puzzled why the rpms are varying so much. That has me thinking.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 06:48:42 AM
Not sure, but the Steorn tachoman in that awesome video recently posted in this thread basically said he's puzzled why the rpms are varying so much. That has me thinking.

It's probably the reed switches failing.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 01:43:10 PM
It's probably the reed switches failing.

I agree.  Must be solid state for long term run.  There are so many variables here and with no circuit posted on the recovery methods, who knows.  Then too, maybe not enough excess power to run electronics package.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 02:15:59 PM
I agree.  Must be solid state for long term run.  There are so many variables here and with no circuit posted on the recovery methods, who knows.  Then too, maybe not enough excess power to run electronics package.

There is supposed to be a series of additional talks/experiments in January so perhaps we will learn more then.

By the way, I sincerely apologize for repeating myself about this. But could you explain to me that circuit you mentioned earlier that uses diodes/bridge rectifier to put flyback current back into the battery? I'm just really eager to learn how this can be done. I am planning on building a pulse motor and want to use the concept. I've read about the Bedini motors and how they charge a seperate battery, but that does not sound too interesting to me. I want to know how to charge the same battery I'm using (if it turns out to be OU or not).
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 25, 2009, 02:34:59 PM
Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.

Yes, the current appears to be flowing in the right direction.  The inductor wants to keep current flowing, this is basic circuit laws.  I don't think the simulation is lying to us.


GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
I'm really surprised this question isn't being answered here.   :o

Yes, the current appears to be flowing in the right direction.  The inductor wants to keep current flowing, this is basic circuit laws.  I don't think the simulation is lying to us.


GB

The problem I see is that before and after the switches are opened the current is flowing in the same direction across the inductor.

My understanding of flyback from a collapsing magnetic field is that it produces a current moving in the opposite direction that created it.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 25, 2009, 02:49:53 PM
The problem I see is that before and after the switches are opened the current is flowing in the same direction across the inductor.

My understanding of flyback from a collapsing magnetic field is that it produces a current moving in the opposite direction that created it.

Like I said, the inductor wants to keep current flowing.

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 25, 2009, 03:02:23 PM
You shouldn't get to hung on the term fly"back". Think of it as the inductor wanting to keep the momentum of the current going. When the voltage source is removed or flipped the inductor produces a voltage to maintain current flow. In AC this results in a phase shift and 0 energy dissipation (perfect inductor). In DC this results in energy being dumped back into the source in a perfect linear fashion (again for perfect inductors).
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 03:08:11 PM
There is supposed to be a series of additional talks/experiments in January so perhaps we will learn more then.

By the way, I sincerely apologize for repeating myself about this. But could you explain to me that circuit you mentioned earlier that uses diodes/bridge rectifier to put flyback current back into the battery? I'm just really eager to learn how this can be done. I am planning on building a pulse motor and want to use the concept. I've read about the Bedini motors and how they charge a seperate battery, but that does not sound too interesting to me. I want to know how to charge the same battery I'm using (if it turns out to be OU or not).

Hi IOU,

Hang loose on the battery charging circuit.  I want to be sure before I post anything on that.  I know how the Bedini works as have built lots of them but this is a different turkey  Just for thought, a separate coil for isolation and then a FAST high peak current FWBR offset for battery switching voltage ought to work but time will tell.  I'm not ignoring your question, just want to be sure.  Working on video of voltage and current, can only do so much so fast and I am NOT a video edit type person.......arrggghhh.

Respectfully
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 03:14:27 PM
You shouldn't get to hung on the term fly"back". Think of it as the inductor wanting to keep the momentum of the current going. When the voltage source is removed or flipped the inductor produces a voltage to maintain current flow. In AC this results in a phase shift and 0 energy dissipation (perfect inductor). In DC this results in energy being dumped back into the source in a perfect linear fashion (again for perfect inductors).

I agree, looking at the Inductive kickback EMF pulse, while voltage is very high under no clamp or load suitation, when loaded into a diode across coil (which adds to motor power as it is bi-directional as far as voltage/current is concerned) the area under that waveform is just a small precentage of the waveform driving the rotor, hence it is NOT the source of OU in this motor/generator!  Remember that in this motor, inductance is virtually cancled out so you do NOT have the large BEMF pulse you normally see...That is part of the genius of this motor.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 25, 2009, 04:01:00 PM
...
Remember that in this motor, inductance is virtually cancled out so you do NOT have the large BEMF pulse you normally see...That is part of the genius of this motor.
...

BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 25, 2009, 04:18:05 PM
BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

Sure it isn't since you have tried every possible arrangement conceivable to mankind or any alien race to absolutely prove this, right? I'm sure Tesla was a blockhead using simple inductive and capacitance laws to do things 1 million EE's combined can't do today.

I don't want to touch too much on this subject since that's not what Steorn is mainly focusing on. The recovery process discussed here was solely for the purpose of recovering the inductive energy whether it's lower or higher than input is irrelevant so far. But Steorn made a small side note that it's in fact higher. This thread has some good momentum behind it with already decent experimentation beginning. I will politely ask you to either contribute to encourage positive progress or not disturb the progress with your short sighted believes. Thank you for your understanding.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 04:20:13 PM
Sorry guys, I have to disagree on the fly-back.
If you ground one end of a coil, then apply a current to the other end, when the current is removed the collapsing field will cause the current to flow the opposite direction of the applied current.

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Make sense?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 25, 2009, 04:24:02 PM
BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

In this case, the mechanical gain due to no CEMF is already OU (Lenz violation).  Recovering the BEMF makes it more OU.  This really burns you naysayers to no end.  I love it.

Take care,

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 04:33:05 PM
Hi Gang,

Photos of waveform on 12.4 VDC battery supply

First photo JPGxx415:

Bottom trace is voltage across coil, top trace is total system current in .1 ohm resistor.  Hence 12+ V pulse across coil and .8 amps current in coil give or take.   Average power determined by duty cycle of pulse.

Bottom voltage trace is @ 5VDC/div and top current is .5 amp div. inverted trace.  So down is current flow. Remember this is NOT precision measurement!!!!  Note short coil charge up time due to a small amount of inductance not trimmed out in coil.  Also note the integrated voltage at the trailing end of the voltage pulse @ turn off due to diode across coil.

xx416.JPG Below:

Second picture shows same but bottom traceis 20V/div now to show 50v pp giver or take, back emf pulse at turn off with diode across coil removed,  Very fast ringing pulse @ cutoff  but does not show up in current as the diode across coil keeps it in the coil.  Just the current back feeding into diode and circulating around coil.  As you can see, virtually no energy in back emf.  That is the long and short of it.  I could show the current in the coil by putting the .1 ohm resistor in series with diode but haven't bothered.

That's it.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 25, 2009, 04:33:43 PM
Sorry guys, I have to disagree on the fly-back.
If you ground one end of a coil, then apply a current to the other end, when the current is removed the collapsing field will cause the current to flow the opposite direction of the applied current.

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Make sense?

Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding. An inductor doesn't instantaneously reverse current and then decay, this would be quite amazing but it doesn't happen in simple circuits. I might understand that the confusion arises with voltages across things, when they reverse and current doesn't and what not. But the most simple view is to see inductor wanting to keep the same current (direction and magnitude going). This is why if you short out a perfect inductor It will maintain current flow with 0 voltage, like super conductors. When you short it out with a resistor it will decay exponentially since a resistor has a varying voltage drop which depends on current. On the other hand when shorted out with a battery it will be a linear ramp to 0 amps since the batteries voltage doesn't change with current flow.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 04:53:57 PM
Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding. An inductor doesn't instantaneously reverse current and then decay, this would be quite amazing but it doesn't happen in simple circuits. I might understand that the confusion arises with voltages across things, when they reverse and current doesn't and what not. But the most simple view is to see inductor wanting to keep the same current (direction and magnitude going). This is why if you short out a perfect inductor It will maintain current flow with 0 voltage, like super conductors. When you short it out with a resistor it will decay exponentially since a resistor has a varying voltage drop which depends on current. On the other hand when shorted out with a battery it will be a linear ramp to 0 amps since the batteries voltage doesn't change with current flow.

Look at scope shot above and you can see direction of current flow.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 07:21:41 PM
Hi Ben,
many thanks for the scopeshots.
These are as expected.

Please can you now only turn the rotor by hand , give it a quick spin
with some kind of thread wound around the cola tube and just scope the
voltage from the coil, put  the scope heads directly across the coil
without any switching.

I really would love to see, how much induction voltage your magnets are
putting out into your coil and how the waveform looks.

Probably only a very small some kind of a sin^2 waveform..
around the zero line..


Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 07:31:35 PM
Broli:

Quote
Sure it isn't since you have tried  or any alien race to absolutely prove this, right? I'm sure Tesla was a blockhead using simple inductive and capacitance laws to do things 1 million EE's combined can't do today.

Actually Tesla's experiments and gained knowledge were very interesting and advanced science to a certain extent, but science has moved way beyond Tesla at the present time.  We don't use Tesla's technology today because we have developed better technologies and better ways of doing things.

You should try to stay away from the "every possible arrangement conceivable to mankind" angle, it is a false argument.  You can understand how certain electrical circuits work and then apply that gained knowledge in a general sense to all circuits of the same type.

Quote
This thread has some good momentum behind it with already decent experimentation beginning. I will politely ask you to either contribute to encourage positive progress or not disturb the progress with your short sighted believes. Thank you for your understanding.

No way.  You should not be saying that at all.  People have a right to express their opinions.  There is a difference between expressing a different opinion and people like Wilby that disrupt threads and go off topic for the "sport" of arguing.

Exnihiloest has the same right to express his opinion here as you do and as I do.  This fundamental principle of free speech and the exchange of ideas is thousands of times more important that your personal feelings about who should be allowed to post and who shouldn't be allowed to post.

I know that you don't want me to post either but I will post if I want to post.  This is what freedom and free speech are all about and you should apologize to Exnihiloest for your statement.

Lumen:

Quote
Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Broli is right, the current does not change direction.  Seeing the voltage reverse across a coil makes people think that the current changes direction but in fact the current keeps flowing in the same direction.

Gravityblock:

Quote
In this case, the mechanical gain due to no CEMF is already OU (Lenz violation).  Recovering the BEMF makes it more OU.  This really burns you naysayers to no end.  I love it.

There is no Lenz's law violation going on in the Steorn demo.  There is CEMF but at a very low level.  Most importantly, there is no OU.  Don't believe that there is OU until it is proven to you.  All that you saw with the Steorn demo was a pulse motor that demonstrated "classical" electrical and magnetic theories.

Lenz's Law is alive and well and this should not be surprising if you examine what they were demonstrating carefully.  In the next few days I will post my impressions of what Steorn demoed and you can agree or disagree with me.

MileHigh

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 08:00:41 PM
MileHigh,
just wait until Ben posts his scopeshots of the hand turning induction into his
coil.
Then we can say more.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 08:37:37 PM
MileHigh,
just wait until Ben posts his scopeshots of the hand turning induction into his
coil.
Then we can say more.

Hi Stefan,

Spun motor up to 1000 RPM @ 26VDC give or take.  Removed power,  scope shot directly across coil, 20mv./div.  50 to 60 mv peak funky sine wave due to imperfect magnet placement (shaky hands and eyeballs).  IF all 4 coils were balanced, I assume they would disappear. When I rebuild it, I will try to balance to less than .1uH. Lets see 60 mv back emf vs. 26 volts not bad.  Hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 08:41:16 PM
Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance.  If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns.  Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance.  When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil?  Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns.  It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns.  Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above.   The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction as the magnetic field, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils.  The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero.  As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil.  This makes perfect sense.  We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil.  Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil.  It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil.  A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil.  You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip.  The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil?  That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 25, 2009, 08:47:22 PM
Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance.  If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns.  Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance.  When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil?  Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns.  It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns.  Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above.   The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils.  The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero.  As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil.  This makes perfect sense.  We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil.  Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil.  It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil.  A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil.  You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip.  The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil?  That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh

Good morning to you too. Too bad you missed the train and arrived to a conclusion which everyone and his cat already accepted. But I guess that's the sickness attention seekers like you have. Next time try to be on time.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 08:49:09 PM
Hi Gang,

A further video.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafdIK5tzAs

Mile high has some very good observations and very good pointed questions as to theory of this device, most excellent.  We can discuss them as time passes by....Are we having fun?

Happy new year.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
Broli:

Quote
Good morning to you too. Too bad you missed the train and arrived to a conclusion which everyone and his cat already accepted. But I guess that's the sickness attention seekers like you have. Next time try to be on time.

Quote
Mile high has some very good observations and very good pointed questions as to theory of this device, most excellent.  We can discuss them as time passes by....Are we having fun?

You were the 10 counter-clockwise turns and K4zep was the 10 clockwise turns so the statements canceled each other out, with the bonus that people can look at your statements and draw some conclusions about your character.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 09:08:39 PM
Stephan:

Let me briefly discuss the voltage generated in the toroidal coil before he does his experiment because it will be helpful.

Suppose you have a normal coil of wire that has 10 clockwise turns and 10 millihenries of inductance.  If you move a magnet in the vicinity of this coil you will see voltage generated across the coil.

If you now add another 10 turns to this coil, but this time in a counter-clockwise direction then the 10 counter-clockwise turns cancel out the 10 clockwise turns.  Now the coil will measure 0 millihenries of inductance.  When you move a magnet in the vicinity of this 10 turns CW + 10 turns CCW coil you will see that there is no voltage generated across the coil.

So what about a toroidal coil?  Supposing you take the magnet's point of view and you are looking edge-on at the toroidal coil like you see in the Steorn demonstration clip.

The magnet sees the left side of the toroidal coil as having clockwise turns.  It sees the right side of the toroidal coil as having counter-clockwise turns.  Therefore the left and right sides of the toroidal coil cancel each other out just like in the example above.   The coils in the center of the toroidal coil do not "see" the changing magnetic flux because they are oriented in the same direction as the magnetic field, there is no changing magnetic flux being "cut" by the coils in the center of the toroidal coil, for both the closer coils and the further away coils.  The other coils of wire in the toroidal coil that are to either side of the center line partially cut flux, but they cancel each other out also.

The net result of all of this is that the net changing magnetic flux seen by the toroidal coil in the Steorn setup is almost zero.  As the magnets fly by the toroidal coil, all of the changing magnetic flux seen by each individual turn of the toroidal coil, when they are all added together, will nearly completely cancel out.

However, it will not be a perfect cancellation, there will still be a very tiny net change in flux which will generate a very tiny change in the output voltage from the toroidal coil.

So Steorn chose a toroidal coil arrangement to saturate the core inside the coil.  This makes perfect sense.  We know that by saturating the coil it makes it appear to "disappear" when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the saturated toroidal coil.  Therefore there is attraction when the magnet is approaching the metal core of the toroid which speeds up the motor, and there is no opposite attraction causing the motor to slow down when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of metal core of the toroid because it "dissapears."

However, the whole time the magnet is flying by the toroidal coil of wire that is wound around the metal core, Lenz's Law is inducing voltage and/or current in the coil.  It just so happens that the geometry of the windings of the coil are such that very little net change in magnetic flux is seen by the toroidal coil.  A toroidal coil is just a variation on 10 clockwise turns being canceled out by 10 counter-clockwise turns.

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil.  You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip.  The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil?  That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.


MHand all

Hi MH,

I'm for anyone jumping into the discussion as long as they remain a gentleman. 

The problem with induction and bifilar wound coils is simple, sort of like the chicken and the egg, which comes first. 

If you don't have inductance you can't have induction, but if you have induction  and a magnetic field INSIDE the core from nominal external excition (power supply), does the passing magnetic fields interact with the internal field and in return show up in the coil when it is balanced or cause a special type of field anti-torque reflected back into the magnetic rotor?  Don't know yet, Obviously with the coil around the core on, it is shielded from external fields, but when floating, of course there could be interaction but to what.  There is no load on the coil, therefore there is no current flow and hence no induction fields.....funky.  If I can get the effective coil inductance down to <.1ufH with tedious trimming of individual coil turns and hence a resistive load, perhaps we can precede further into this discussion as a building block in our knowledge into this mode of operation.

OU, I don't know. Steorn thinks so.....I suspect the effect is OU expressed in mechanical terms, but is there enough for the "ride to glory!". Until I get a refined enough motor to run a generator, I haven't a clue.
Now darn it, there are some crackerjack of builders out there because I have seen their work, lets get a few more of these motors operating!!!!!


Respectfully,
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 09:37:32 PM
Quote
Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding.

Well, if you think about any coil on a relay, which way is the shunt diode that SHORTS the fly back?

Hmmm... it's not in the direction of the initial current flow.

I have been in electronics for 30 years.... I probably have an idea. I have a two oscilloscopes also and can set it up to look like anything, but the term fly back IS exactly what it means.





Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 25, 2009, 09:46:55 PM
Well, if you think about any coil on a relay, which way is the shunt diode that SHORTS the fly back?

Hmmm... it's not in the direction of the initial current flow.

I have been in electronics for 30 years.... I probably have an idea. I have a two oscilloscopes also and can set it up to look like anything, but the term fly back IS exactly what it means.

If you can't see that 1+1=2 then there's little reason to argue. If we don't have a mutual understanding of basic things we will never achieve anything.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 09:57:59 PM
Stephan:
.....

The real issue underneath all of this is that it takes electrical energy to saturate the coil.  You can see it in the Steorn clip and K4zep's clip.  The real question is is the electrical energy required to saturate the coil more or less than the rotational energy added to the rotor when the magnet flies by the toroidal coil?  That is the key critical question and I haven't seen any discussion about it around here.

MileHigh

Yes, you are totally right...
BUT you can extract about 90 % of the inputted electrical energy via BackEMF extraction.
Then you have almost the rotational energy due to the attraction of the magnet to the ferrite core FOR FREE !

Then the attraction energy must only be bigger than the 10 % you will not be able to
extract via the BackEMF extraction circuit.

The simplest BackEMF extraction circuit is just a graetz bridge across (parallel ) to all the toroidal coil in series
feeding a capacitor.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 25, 2009, 10:03:16 PM
Isn't it wonderful what civility and knowledge can do?

Gentlemen, (and I ask many to re-read that last word) I applaud you!

Please continue posting your findings!  Cool stuff!

M.

PS.  TK, would you kindly join in here?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 10:06:37 PM
Hi Stefan,

Spun motor up to 1000 RPM @ 26VDC give or take.  Removed power,  scope shot directly across coil, 20mv./div.  50 to 60 mv peak funky sine wave due to imperfect magnet placement (shaky hands and eyeballs).  IF all 4 coils were balanced, I assume they would disappear. When I rebuild it, I will try to balance to less than .1uH. Lets see 60 mv back emf vs. 26 volts not bad.  Hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Ben

Hi Ben,
many thanks for the scopeshot !
Well , now we know, that with a good setup this will work.

60 mV with so many coil windings on neodym magnets is pretty low
at almost 1000RPM.
If you would take a normal coil with the same number of windings
and would use it, the induced voltage would be probably a few volts,
so we can say that the motor to generator effect is very asymmentrical,
what we also need for an OU motor.

So it seems the toroidal coil does not work well as a generator
and so the counterEMF(induction into the coil while motor is running)
is very much suppressed which
is a very good sign that this motor is just a motor  and not a generator.

This way it can be designed as an OU motor with stronger magnets  and the
right mechanical and electrical setup with BackEMF extraction and short gap magnetic
flux pathes.( low magnetic flux losses)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 10:23:05 PM
Hi Ben,
could you please put a graetz bridge rectifier bridge across your toroidal coil and charge up a big cap with it during the motor runs ?
Would like to see the produced voltage and the cap uF capacity.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 10:27:17 PM
Hi Ben,
many thanks for the scopeshot !
Well , now we know, that with a good setup this will work.

60 mV with so many coil windings on neodym magnets is pretty low
at almost 1000RPM.
If you would take a normal coil with the same number of windings
and would use it, the induced voltage would be probably a few volts,
so we can say that the motor to generator effect is very asymmentrical,
what we also need for an OU motor.

So it seems the toroidal coil does not work well as a generator
and so the counterEMF(induction into the coil while motor is running)
is very much suppressed which
is a very good sign that this motor is just a motor  and not a generator.

This way it can be designed as an OU motor with stronger magnets  and the
right mechanical and electrical setup with BackEMF extraction and short gap magnetic
flux pathes.( low magnetic flux losses)

Gentleman all,

I won't even get into the discussion about back EMF and which way the current flows, that was in E001,......We are so far beyond basic theories, whipping that old dog is like spinning your wheels and not getting anywhere.  Build a darn motor, sit down with scope and you will see EXACTLY the way the current flows.  Build a standard Bedini, single diode out to a separate battery......Everything is right in front of your eyes, polarity included!  Look UP gentleman, quit looking back, its non-productive!  If you want to fuss, go in set down with your wife (bettery half)  and try to have a conversation about FREE ENERGY!!!!!

The best thing about this burst of creativeness I have had building this motor is all the NEW ideas that the process gave me.  You have 100 good ideas and one turns out to be great. This has had to kick others into action too!   One new idea is a gravity powered cloaked magnet enhanced pendulum for one....think about it.  That is as far off topic as I will get.  There are other applications of this "cloaking" effect that will have much more FAR reaching effects and I don't think Stoern will be the one to do it.....time will tell.  What a great year to look forward to!

Respectfully,

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 10:36:30 PM
You shouldn't get to hung on the term fly"back". Think of it as the inductor wanting to keep the momentum of the current going. When the voltage source is removed or flipped the inductor produces a voltage to maintain current flow. In AC this results in a phase shift and 0 energy dissipation (perfect inductor). In DC this results in energy being dumped back into the source in a perfect linear fashion (again for perfect inductors).

So lets say I have the following simple circuit.

A battery with a positive terminal with a wire leading to a reed switch that leads to an electromagnet that then leads to the negative terminal of the battery.

When the reed switch is closed the current flows from positive to negative.

If I open the reed switch will there be a rush of "positive" polarity going back towards the reed switch?

 

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 10:42:47 PM
Quote
Hi IOU,

Hang loose on the battery charging circuit.  I want to be sure before I post anything on that.  I know how the Bedini works as have built lots of them but this is a different turkey  Just for thought, a separate coil for isolation and then a FAST high peak current FWBR offset for battery switching voltage ought to work but time will tell.  I'm not ignoring your question, just want to be sure.  Working on video of voltage and current, can only do so much so fast and I am NOT a video edit type person.......arrggghhh.

Respectfully
Ben

I appreciate that you are working to answer my question.

By the way, if you could please include in the answer which way the current flows when the field of the electromagnet collapses it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
Sorry guys, I have to disagree on the fly-back.
If you ground one end of a coil, then apply a current to the other end, when the current is removed the collapsing field will cause the current to flow the opposite direction of the applied current.

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Make sense?

I think you are correct. However, I would like other people's opinions.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 10:52:22 PM
Current actually flows from the negative but that is something for another point.

In your case, If you have one side of a coil connected to ground or negative, then you connect the other end to positive for a short pulse, the instant the connection is broken.
The end of the coil, that was positive will (fly back) toward ground but will surpass the ground point and move even more negative to a point that can damage electrical components.
This is exactly why a diode is usually placed across the coil to short this spike and prevent damage to components.
This is what they mean when the say recover the fly back in a way that can be used to recharge the battery.

I cannot understand why anyone would think the current continues to flow forward.
It may be something above me and I just don't see how at this time, but I'm always open to another view.




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 10:52:25 PM
Hi Ben,
could you please put a graetz bridge rectifier bridge across your toroidal coil and charge up a big cap with it during the motor runs ?
Would like to see the produced voltage and the cap uF capacity.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

Its not quite that simple, IF I simply put a Graets Bridge (FWBR) across the coil, I will also be switching the power supply into the cap along with any other induced/produced voltages. You would end up with the Cap charged to PS voltage minus diode voltage drop, but then the voltage would slowly integrate up from that value from any other transients/spikes that was there. I would have to put a SS switch/gate to disconnect the FWBR while the coil was powered if I wanted to see actual output without the power supply reflected in the picture!!  Timing gets to be tricky when you do that.....On before off, off before on, and on and on.....Remember the amount of power in the inductive kickback pulse (Low inductance, hence no current or power) and the 60mV pp of the back EMF is insignificant.  Also, that kickback is already integrated into the coil via the diode across the coil. 

Oh, hand drawn schematic of driver attached.  IF anyone feels free to make it "pretty" go ahead, I don't have time.  Oh, forgot to label the top line.  It is 5 to 25VDC, with heat sink, can handle most anything.  Love that IRF1405. It doesn't even get warm as used.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 10:53:01 PM
Hi Gang,

Photos of waveform on 12.4 VDC battery supply

First photo JPGxx415:

Bottom trace is voltage across coil, top trace is total system current in .1 ohm resistor.  Hence 12+ V pulse across coil and .8 amps current in coil give or take.   Average power determined by duty cycle of pulse.

Bottom voltage trace is @ 5VDC/div and top current is .5 amp div. inverted trace.  So down is current flow. Remember this is NOT precision measurement!!!!  Note short coil charge up time due to a small amount of inductance not trimmed out in coil.  Also note the integrated voltage at the trailing end of the voltage pulse @ turn off due to diode across coil.

xx416.JPG Below:

Second picture shows same but bottom traceis 20V/div now to show 50v pp giver or take, back emf pulse at turn off with diode across coil removed,  Very fast ringing pulse @ cutoff  but does not show up in current as the diode across coil keeps it in the coil.  Just the current back feeding into diode and circulating around coil.  As you can see, virtually no energy in back emf.  That is the long and short of it.  I could show the current in the coil by putting the .1 ohm resistor in series with diode but haven't bothered.

That's it.

Respectfully
Ben

Your voltage scope trace makes me think that voltage/current does flow backwards when the circuit is opened.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 10:58:04 PM
k4zep,
Quote
If you want to fuss, go in set down with your wife (bettery half)  and try to have a conversation about FREE ENERGY!!!!!

Yes, I do understand this exactly...... tried that ONCE!
I like your hand drawn circuit! very simple.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 10:59:49 PM
Hi Ben,
many thanks for the circuit diagram.

Could you remove the diode across L1 and instead use a graetz bridge
rectifier across L1 and use your boost cap at the output of the graetz bridge ?

Will be interesting to see, how fast this boost-ultracap will charge up.

Probably pretty fast.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 11:01:19 PM
Current actually flows from the negative but that is something for another point.

In your case, If you have one side of a coil connected to ground or negative, then you connect the other end to positive for a short pulse, the instant the connection is broken.
The end of the coil, that was positive will (fly back) toward ground but will surpass the ground point and move even more negative to a point that can damage electrical components.
This is exactly why a diode is usually placed across the coil to short this spike and prevent damage to components.
This is what they mean when the say recover the fly back in a way that can be used to recharge the battery.

I cannot understand why anyone would think the current continues to flow forward.
It may be something above me and I just don't see how at this time, but I'm always open to another view.

You are absolutely correct.  The problem is there are resistive losses in the core/windings and diode voltage drop and reversed fields fighting each other with resultant energy used so you can NEVER recover enough back EMF to make it OU. You can make a circuit more efficient if there is a HIGH level of backEMF but it is a no win situation.   

In my circuit, coil is tied to POSITIVE and pulled low, so when FET turns off, that points goes VERY high or higher than the positive rail, .7 VDC later as it rises, the diode turns on/conducts and it then becomes a current supplying device to the coil or external cap or battery if so wired.......
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2009, 11:01:46 PM
K4zep:

Quote
if you have induction  and a magnetic field INSIDE the core from nominal external excition (power supply), does the passing magnetic fields interact with the internal field and in return show up in the coil when it is balanced or cause a special type of field anti-torque reflected back into the magnetic rotor?

The effects passing magnetic field are simply added to the internal field generated by the battery.  It is as simple as that, you add them together.

If the coil is open-circuit then the passing magnetic fields from the magnets flying by induce a small EMF in the coil.  If the coil is short-circuited or connected to a low impedance battery or power supply, then the passing magnetic fields induce a current in the coil that is added to the DC current from the power source.  It is hard to tell from your setup but the small ripple that you see in your current waveforms in your most recent clip could be partially caused by this effect.  It could also be related to where you are connecting your probes in the circuit and the overall setup.

Quote
Obviously with the coil around the core on, it is shielded from external fields

As per what I say above, when the coil around the core is on, it is not shielded from the external fields.  The fields generated by the battery and the moving magnets add together, where the field inside the core is dominated by the field generated by the battery.

Stephan:

Quote
BUT you can extract about 90 % of the inputted electrical energy via BackEMF extraction.
Then you have almost the rotational energy due to the attraction of the magnet to the ferrite core FOR FREE !

You are incorrect here.  K4zep pointed out the exponentially rising current waveform on his scope trace and stated that's where the inductor gets charged with energy and he is correct.  Once the inductor is fully charged and the current levels off, then it is just acting like a resistor dissipating energy as heat.

In Sean's demo clip, you can see how the exponential rise to charge the coils with current is around only 2% or less of the ON time.  Therefore, the back EMF that you can get from the coil discharge is only about 2% or less than than the total amount of electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.   In K4zep's most recent clip you can see the exponential curve of coil charging current levels off after about 10% of the total ON time.  Therefore in his setup you can only recover 10% or less of the total electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.

So there is nothing free about this process if you want to recover the back EMF after the coil has done its job of saturating the ferrite core.  You have to put out a lot more energy to make the core "disappear" than you can get back in any back-EMF recovery circuit.  In a Joule Thief circuit, the charging current in the collector coil is automatically shut off once the coil is fully charged with current, it is a self-regulating process.  Therefore a Joule Thief would return a much higher proportion of the charging energy in its inductive kickback.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 11:04:14 PM
P.S: If the cap voltage will go higher than the supply voltage the greatz bridge will
not conduct during the normal input current operation but only
be charged when the BackEMF spikes occur.

So you need to have a cap that can stand higher voltages than the supply voltage.

So probably the boost supercap alone will not work at just 2.7 Volts or you need to
put a few in series.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 11:07:14 PM
Quote
ould you remove the diode across L1 and instead use a graetz bridge
rectifier across L1 and use your boost cap at the output of the graetz bridge ?

I think this would be possible if you disconnected both ends of the coil as in Broli's design.
You would need a setup like an H bridge to drive the coil.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 11:09:18 PM
Hi Ben,
many thanks for the circuit diagram.

Could you remove the diode across L1 and instead use a graetz bridge
rectifier across L1 and use your boost cap at the output of the graetz bridge ?

Will be interesting to see, how fast this boost-ultracap will charge up.

Probably pretty fast.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

High Stefan,

Can't do that as part of the bridge would short the coil in the wrong direction due to normal wiring but I can put a single 1/2 wave diode in there just to see what will happen.  Draw it out, will understand.  If had a separate winding like Bedini could do it but with the quadf coil, no inductance!!!!!!!!  a gotcha there.

Next post will show results.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 11:13:05 PM


Stephan:

You are incorrect here.  K4zep pointed out the exponentially rising current waveform on his scope trace and stated that's where the inductor gets charged with energy and he is correct.  Once the inductor is fully charged and the current levels off, then it is just acting like a resistor dissipating energy as heat.

In Sean's demo clip, you can see how the exponential rise to charge the coils with current is around only 2% or less of the ON time.  Therefore, the back EMF that you can get from the coil discharge is only about 2% or less than than the total amount of electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.   In K4zep's most recent clip you can see the exponential curve of coil charging current levels off after about 10% of the total ON time.  Therefore in his setup you can only recover 10% or less of the total electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.

So there is nothing free about this process if you want to recover the back EMF after the coil has done its job of saturating the ferrite core.  You have to put out a lot more energy to make the core "disappear" than you can get back in any back-EMF recovery circuit.  In a Joule Thief circuit, the charging current in the collector coil is automatically shut off once the coil is fully charged with current, it is a self-regulating process.  Therefore a Joule Thief would return a much higher proportion of the charging energy in its inductive kickback.

MileHigh

Hi MH,
in a coil you have L and R.
The rising current waveform has the function of:

i(t)= Imax x ( 1- e ^(-t/tau) )

where tau=L/R
if you switch on the current only for 1/5th of the time of tau,
then more than 90 % of the inputed energy will be just stored inside
the coil L magnetic field and not much Ohmic losses will yet be present.

So a short Ontime less than 1/5th tau is required to extract almost
all energy back from the coil.
If you switch the input voltage longer on, you have more losses and this
motor will consume too much input energy and it will be hard
to get it to  overunity.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 25, 2009, 11:22:04 PM
High Stefan,

Can't do that as part of the bridge would short the coil in the wrong direction due to normal wiring but I can put a single 1/2 wave diode in there just to see what will happen.  Draw it out, will understand.  If had a separate winding like Bedini could do it but with the quadf coil, no inductance!!!!!!!!  a gotcha there.

Next post will show results.

Respectfully
Ben

You are right,
but you can start by letting the cap charge up to the power supply voltage via
the battery or power supply and then see from this point ,how much if will further charge
up over the power supply voltage.
The graetz bridge will only conduct, when the BackEMF voltage will
be higher than the cap voltage and as the cap voltage will be higher than
the supply voltage, the graetz bridge will only conduct during BackEMF spike voltage
and charge up the cap to the maximum spike voltage of the BackEMF.

Then you can calculate the difference energy the cap has got in a timeframe
by substrating the energy it had at the start with the supply voltage level.

This way also a graetz bridge will work for it, but you probably have to use
a cap that can stand around 100 Volts or more.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2009, 11:24:34 PM
MileHigh,

Quote
So there is nothing free about this process if you want to recover the back EMF after the coil has done its job of saturating the ferrite core.  You have to put out a lot more energy to make the core "disappear" than you can get back in any back-EMF recovery circuit.  In a Joule Thief circuit, the charging current in the collector coil is automatically shut off once the coil is fully charged with current, it is a self-regulating process.  Therefore a Joule Thief would return a much higher proportion of the charging energy in its inductive kickback.

I agree, the pulse in the Steorn motor is maintained for a very long duration and will consume too much energy.
If they are able to make this operate and still recover enough energy from the generator section to cover it, then it sure seem like in a solid state device where the saturation time could be minimal, a large amount of power could be generated.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 12:04:43 AM
You are right,
but you can start by letting the cap charge up to the power supply voltage via
the battery or power supply and then see from this point ,how much if will further charge
up over the power supply voltage.
The graetz bridge will only conduct, when the BackEMF voltage will
be higher than the cap voltage and as the cap voltage will be higher than
the supply voltage, the graetz bridge will only conduct during BackEMF spike voltage
and charge up the cap to the maximum spike voltage of the BackEMF.

Then you can calculate the difference energy the cap has got in a timeframe
by substrating the energy it had at the start with the supply voltage level.

This way also a graetz bridge will work for it, but you probably have to use
a cap that can stand around 100 Volts or more.

H Stefan,

This will surprise you!

Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3_XPxbbOig

No need to say more except it will also charge a 650 F super cap at the rate of about 2 mv/Min......will get a much more accurate
rate later.

Respectfully,
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 26, 2009, 12:05:04 AM
I am enjoying every moment of this.  Thanks to all!

K4, listening to your voice on the video I'd say you are from the South East of the USA.  Tennessee to be exact.  Am I close?

PS.  To those who think I am the MIB for asking this question, I apologize.  I am not.  I just work with many good souls in TN who talk similarly to Ben, so I am curios. 

No ulterior motives.

M.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 12:17:59 AM
I am enjoying every moment of this.  Thanks to all!

K4, listening to your voice on the video I'd say you are from the South East of the USA.  Tennessee to be exact.  Am I close?

PS.  To those who think I am the MIB for asking this question, I apologize.  I am not.  I just work with many good souls in TN who talk similarly to Ben, so I am curios. 

No ulterior motives.

M.

How about western North Carolina just over the Blue Ridge Mountains.  Now,  I'm retired to St. Petersburg, FL, an old fart that loves to play with out of the box stuff.  I now but still get that twange worse when I'm on "TV".  Heck of you were MIB, I'd invite you down for a cup of coffee and gab your head off!!!!  Life is good....
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 12:22:48 AM
Hi all,

For those that like to play with numbers the motor will charge up a 650 F  Cap. at the rate of .198 V/ hour.  How much electrical energy is it producing?   Have fun.

Respectfully,

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 26, 2009, 12:45:42 AM
K4,

Thanks again for your work.  (I'm guessing many more are reading than are posting.)

As for:  gab your head off!

1) I would humbly oblige to listen!

2) I'd buy the first round.  Or not if your prefer.

Gentlemen...

Gentlemen...

PS.  My baby is sleeping right now.  She was blown away by Xmas...

Merry, Merry..

Awh, hell....

Merry Christmas!

And Peace on Earth.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 12:53:31 AM
H Stefan,

This will surprise you!

Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3_XPxbbOig

No need to say more except it will also charge a 650 F super cap at the rate of about 2 mv/Min......will get a much more accurate
rate later.

Respectfully,
Ben

Very nice Ben !
Well done ! Great BackEMF recycling circuit.

Did you just use a diode ?
What diode ?
Do you have a very fast diode ?
It will help.
Like MU5xxx types or so..

The energy comes from the stored magnetic field energy from the toroidal coil.
W= 0.5LI^2

Ben, as you switch on about 20 x tau
you need to go to higher supply voltages and
lower ontime intervals, so you will reduce the ontime
to less than tau=L/R.

This way you could scale the motor up
and could recycle almost all of your input energy back to the cap,
if you stay below about 1/5th of tau for the ontime.

With higher supply  voltage you will then already reach in a shorter
time interval the same input current level as you reach now
after longer time.

I studied this all long time ago already with the Newman coils,
so I know quite well what is going on there.


Many thanks again Ben, you are a real help here.

Very well done.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 26, 2009, 12:57:30 AM
Hi.

Cause I'm lazy I used online calc  ;D
http://www4.slikomat.com/09/1226/iey-capaci.png
In one hour you got 13 J of energy. 13J=13Ws
P=13Ws/3600s=3.61mW
I hope It's right if not correct me. ;D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 01:03:49 AM
Hi all,

For those that like to play with numbers the motor will charge up a 650 F  Cap. at the rate of .198 V/ hour.  How much electrical energy is it producing?   Have fun.

Respectfully,

Ben

Hmm, seems to me that you are recovering 35 milliWatts while charging the cap.
At what voltage level did you measure this ?
As the cap charge ramp is only linear around 0 Volts and then goes into
a e-function it really depends on the voltage level the cap already has...

I will have another look at your last video and look into this to calculate
the recycled power level.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:06:31 AM
Very nice Ben !
Well done ! Great BackEMF recycling circuit.

Did you just use a diode ?
What diode ?
Do you have a very fast diode ?
It will help.
Like MU5xxx types or so..

The energy comes from the stored magnetic field energy from the toroidal coil.
W= 0.5LI^2

Ben, as you switch on about 20 x tau
you need to go to higher supply voltages and
lower ontime intervals, so you will reduce the ontime
to less than tau=L/R.

This way you could scale the motor up
and could recycle almost all of your input energy back to the cap,
if you stay below about 1/5th of tau for the ontime.

With higher supply  voltage you will then already reach in a shorter
time interval the same input current level as you reach now
after longer time.

I studied this all long time ago already with the Newman coils,
so I know quite well what is going on there.


Many thanks again Ben, you are a real help here.

Very well done.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,

Now you said a mouthful there.  I would like to run several hundred volts and let that QuadF coil do its magic.  It stores a lot more energy than we suspect.  And I'm not certain it doesn't store energy from the magnetic field passing as in produces energy!.  How much I DONT KNOW. Room for months of experimentation and I love R&D.  This will not be a long winter with this good stuff going on! That said, I would have to have a much more precise timing circuit.  Have done this before with opto and 1-2 ms pulse around  5-700 volts,  But that is another story and won't go there.  Not using HS diode, 1N4007, probably would be better with schotkey diode which I have on hand but this was just a quick test.

Respectfully
Ben


Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 01:12:35 AM
Well
in your last video Ben,
you have charged the 60,000 uF cap= 0.068 Farad cap
in about 27 seconds from zero to about 6 Volts,
that means an energy storage of
W= 0.5 x 0.068 x (6 Volts)^2=1.224 Wattsseconds
Then divide this by 27 seconds and you get a power level
of about 45 MilliWatts, so it is in the same range as the charging of the
Bootcap tells us.

This is a valid level for BackEMF extraction, as your coil has not too much L
inductance and only bigger power levels could be extracted, if you will
have a higher inductance coil L.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:32:27 AM
Hmm, seems to me that you are recovering 35 milliWatts while charging the cap.
At what voltage level did you measure this ?
As the cap charge ramp is only linear around 0 Volts and then goes into
a e-function it really depends on the voltage level the cap already has...

I will have another look at your last video and look into this to calculate
the recycled power level.

Always start @ 0VDC.  And you are right, it is a non-linear curve.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:36:20 AM
Well
in your last video Ben,
you have charged the 60,000 uF cap= 0.068 Farad cap
in about 27 seconds from zero to about 6 Volts,
that means an energy storage of
W= 0.5 x 0.068 x (6 Volts)^2=1.224 Wattsseconds
Then divide this by 27 seconds and you get a power level
of about 45 MilliWatts, so it is in the same range as the charging of the
Bootcap tells us.

This is a valid level for BackEMF extraction, as your coil has not too much L
inductance and only bigger power levels could be extracted, if you will
have a higher inductance coil L.

Excellent. Thats about what I got.  Good work.  I use the Electronics 2000 calculator that I found on line and saved to my ol HP computer that does that too.......lazy.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 05:01:24 AM
Several questions as to how coil is wound.  Pictorial attached.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 26, 2009, 05:25:40 AM
Great stuff in this thread guys!  Thanks to all of you who have rolled up your sleeves on this one and got your hands dirty!  I'm just getting caught up to speed with this thread, forgive me if someone has pointed out what I'm about to ask already, but I missed it if so.  I agree, it is impressive with the reduction of BEMF with this type of toroid power coil setup, but it leaves me with a big question.  Is it necessary?  What I mean is this...  It appears mostly that what is being done is powering a motor with no BEMF, and recovering as much from the inductance as possible.  (I'm ignoring the generator part, as it is a seperate animal than I am referring to.)  If this is true, then has anyone made a simple attraction motor?  Replacing the magnets on the rotor with Iron slugs, would easily remove all the BEMF in the system.  Pulse the power coil before the slug reaches the coil to attract it in.  Cut the power just before dead center, and the field collapses, still pulling the rotor into the coil.  When it reaches the center, the power is totally off and the field completely collapsed so the rotor floats right on by with no resistance, and I believe no eddy currents.  No BEMF at all.

Now, it is possible that using the toroid power coil with rotor magnets concept produces more mechanical power, with less energy wasted...  But I'm not sure that it would.  So that's my question here, has anyone tested an attraction motor, and how would you compare it to the orbo design?  Not to mention, the demo runs on 1.2 volts.  That does seem a bit interesting.

The point here is this, while the motor concept is intrigueing, I am not sure it is more efficient than just an attraction motor that has already been invented long ago. Granted, I have not seen an attraction motor go to OU, just simply no BEMF.  I think the magic is in the generator side of this device.  Not that the motor is bad, just that I think the second part of Orbo is key. Only problem is, I see nothing out of the ordinary on the generator side.  At least as far as I can tell, from the pictures, the pickup coils appear to be regular nylon core coils.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 26, 2009, 06:49:07 AM
@k4zep,

Great work!  I wonder if you could try something simple.  Could you try putting a permanent magnet on the opposite side of your toroid?  I am just curious if maybe by partially saturating that core with a permanent field of the same polarity the current you plan to push into it is going to create, maybe you could get better efficiency by not drawing as much current to bias that toroid...  As long as the permanent magnet is not strong enough to saturate it to much, I don't think it will effect the attraction the rotor has to the core much if any.  Just a thought, I know it's not in the demo, but maybe it's part of what they will show in January.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 26, 2009, 07:26:40 AM
Stephan:

Just a minor correction for you, the tau a.k.a. "time constant" is L/R, not L*R.

So from the cap charging measurements we will estimate that the average power that you can recover from the back-EMF spike from the coil is somewhere around 35 or 45 milliwatts.  If K4zep was to freeze a frame on his scope when the motor is turning at its steady-state speed then you can easily calculate the average motor power consumption.  You have the voltage, current, and ON and OFF times, so the power consumption calculation is pretty trivial.  I think that it is fair to say for K4zep's setup or the Steorn setup the power consumption of the motor itself is much larger than any possible back-EMF recovery based on the data that we have seen today.

You made a few references about overcoming this situation by using a much larger toroidal inductor to that your ON time is less than 1/5 tau, or time constant.  This is not going to work because then you will never manage to saturate the core and the motor will not run.

Beyond this, there is the issue of really being sure that the core is fully saturated, assuming that is your goal.  I am not sure if K4zep made any measurements to be sure if the core was fully saturated or not.  The less saturated the core is, then it "does not completely disappear" and therefore the motor will run at a lower speed.

K4zep:

I think that you made a few references to arranging your four wires that make up your toroidal coil so the inductance measures nearly zero so that the coil becomes a resistive element only.  If I am understanding you correctly then this does not make sense - with that coil wiring configuration you will not be able to saturate the core and the motor won't work.

Here is where I think the discussion is right now:

Some measurements were made of the back-EMF of the coil and the average power is only in the tens of milliwatts.  The average power consumption of the motor itself (the energizing of the toroidal coil) is probably three or four watts.  These measurements are backed up by the scope traces.  In the case of the Steorn setup, the potential recovered back-EMF power is proportionally much smaller as shown in the scope traces of Sean's demo.

Therefore, the idea of using the back-EMF from the toroidal coil itself to "get over the hump" and demonstrate the possibility of OU is highly unlikely but not completely ruled out.  It would require that the power recovered from the separate coil energy recovery system (the pick-up coils in Steorn's setup) be nearly the same as the amount of power consumed to drive the motor.

To repeat, for any chance of OU where we also use the recovered back-EMF power from the toroidal coil, then the separate coil energy recovery system would have to generate nearly the same amount of power as that consumed by the toroidal coil.

I will make an important statement about the separate coil energy recovery system.  Sean clearly stated that it is a simple vanilla system where the coils output into a full-wave bridge rectifier and then charge the battery.  Many of you have played with these types of setups and you all know that there is no "magic" here.  This is just a mundane standard circuit and many of you have observed them first-hand yourselves by adding the setup to a Bedini motor, etc.  I can envision some of the true believers in Steorn insisting that there must be something special about the pick-up coils that tap into energy from Xanadu or whatever.  I will state categorically ahead of time that I reject this unfounded speculation.  It is a vanilla energy recovery system, an ordinary generator configuration that generates power the old-fashioned way.  Don't blind yourself by thinking otherwise.

So, let's forget about the back-EMF power from the toroidal coil for now because we know it is very small.  Let's move on to the real issue of power into the motor as compared to the power out of the motor from the energy recovery coils as per Steorn's setup.

So, how do you make some sort of reasonable estimate of the average power out?  We already know what the average power in is, the scope traces clearly show it and it would be trivial to make the proper measurements.  We also can see a tangible manifestation of the input power because K4zep has remarked about how hot the toroidal coil gets after running the motor for a few minutes.  From the perspective of the battery, this motor looks mostly like a resistive load that burns off battery power and turns it into heat power.

So, we know the average power into the motor, perhaps two or three watts (to be confirmed by somebody) and we want to make an estimate of the average power out from the energy pick-up coils.

How do you do this estimate?

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 26, 2009, 08:07:39 AM
Does anyone have any information as far as to how many times they had to replace the batteries, or how long it ran before they had to?  That is a 10,000 mah D nimh in the video and pictures, and I do not see the 3rd hot wire hooked to battery anywhere, except in the diagrams.  I assume it is the pick up coils not even hooked up in the demo, but I am not sure.  Either way, there must be more data I am missing somewhere.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 26, 2009, 11:20:01 AM
Quote from: broli link=topic=8411.msg217350#msg217350 :date=1261754285
Sure it isn't since you have tried every possible arrangement conceivable to mankind or any alien race to absolutely prove this, right?

Why "every possible arrangement conceivable"?! Only one is enough (and there are many). When the magnetic field collapses, the energy it stored is converted in electrical energy which can be recovered without difficulty.
In the magnetic area, to open the circuit of a coil carrying a current is the same as in the electric area to shortcut a charged capacitor. In the first one we have to recovered the magnetic energy of the magnetic field (energy density = B²/2*m0), and in the second case, the energy in the electric field (energy density = E²*e0/2). There is no magic.
If Steorn claims the recovered energy is more than that one initially stored, Steorn has to prove it, not me. A motor powered by a charged battery is not a proof! A 1.5v, 10 A/h battery can easily sustain a low friction motor for days even for weeks.


Quote
...
I will politely ask you to either contribute to encourage positive progress or not disturb the progress with your short sighted believes. Thank you for your understanding.

There is no interest in encouraging anyone to waste time in conventional devices known from the XIXth century, and to believe instead of analysing the facts. I suggest to spend time in more profitable tracks and to not expand the noise around Steorn while waiting their proofs.




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 12:15:50 PM
@exhiloest,

Steorn has’t yet shown proof for overunity. However, Steorn has shown practical elimination of back emf. How is that conventional?

I haven’t even seen yet proof that even the negligible back emf is due to the presence of the rotor. It very well may be that that’s due to imperfections in the making of the coil and will show itself even in absence of rotor. @k4zep may help us easily in clarifying this -- show the osciloscope traces i absence of rotor and see iif there's the same slight back emf.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 12:44:14 PM
So, suppose that that’s the case – both in absence and in presence of rotor oscilloscope traces remain the same – then that would be the ultimate proof for OU. No Eout/Ein measurement needed, no calorimetry etc. If traces remain the same then a supposed 100% energy balance for the coil in absence of rotor would have retained its 100% energy balance when rotor is present but when rotor in present there will be additional rotational energy coming “out of nothing”.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:47:41 PM
Hi ALL,

On this page #33, a whole pile of interesting questions that I will answer with very short answers.  I am not trying to ignore any question but time spent at the keyboard is time away from the bench and I have spent a LOT of time at the keyboard over the last few days.

Respectfully
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:53:02 PM
Great stuff in this thread guys!  Thanks to all of you who have rolled up your sleeves on this one and got your hands dirty!  I'm just getting caught up to speed with this thread, forgive me if someone has pointed out what I'm about to ask already, but I missed it if so.  I agree, it is impressive with the reduction of BEMF with this type of toroid power coil setup, but it leaves me with a big question.  Is it necessary?  What I mean is this...  It appears mostly that what is being done is powering a motor with no BEMF, and recovering as much from the inductance as possible.  (I'm ignoring the generator part, as it is a seperate animal than I am referring to.)  If this is true, then has anyone made a simple attraction motor?  Replacing the magnets on the rotor with Iron slugs, would easily remove all the BEMF in the system.  Pulse the power coil before the slug reaches the coil to attract it in.  Cut the power just before dead center, and the field collapses, still pulling the rotor into the coil.  When it reaches the center, the power is totally off and the field completely collapsed so the rotor floats right on by with no resistance, and I believe no eddy currents.  No BEMF at all.

Yes, that would work but power very limited.  That advantage of the "no BEMF" is the use of magnets in the rotor and increased torque

Now, it is possible that using the toroid power coil with rotor magnets concept produces more mechanical power, with less energy wasted...  But I'm not sure that it would.

I do not know yet either, time will tell!

  So that's my question here, has anyone tested an attraction motor, and how would you compare it to the orbo design?  Not to mention, the demo runs on 1.2 volts.  That does seem a bit interesting.

Yes, I have built several, nothing special there at all

The point here is this, while the motor concept is intrigueing, I am not sure it is more efficient than just an attraction motor that has already been invented long ago. Granted, I have not seen an attraction motor go to OU, just simply no BEMF.

Correct  I think the magic is in the generator side of this device.  Not that the motor is bad, just that I think the second part of Orbo is key. Only problem is, I see nothing out of the ordinary on the generator side.  At least as far as I can tell, from the pictures, the pickup coils appear to be regular nylon core coils.

No BEMF in generator would be just as advantagous BUT resistive losses in generator would limit any generator to less than OU so it would seem paramount that the motor is OU
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
@k4zep,

Great work!  I wonder if you could try something simple.  Oh, forgot to say welcome aboard.  Have tried magnetic static bias and does NOT seem to increase the speed, need to do more test though.  Could you try putting a permanent magnet on the opposite side of your toroid?  I am just curious if maybe by partially saturating that core with a permanent field of the same polarity the current you plan to push into it is going to create, maybe you could get better efficiency by not drawing as much current to bias that toroid...  As long as the permanent magnet is not strong enough to saturate it to much, I don't think it will effect the attraction the rotor has to the core much if any.  Just a thought, I know it's not in the demo, but maybe it's part of what they will show in January.

Again, bias in the core might be of a help, I just cant demonstrate it right now.

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 02:05:34 PM
Stephan:

Just a minor correction for you, the tau a.k.a. "time constant" is L/R, not L*R.

So from the cap charging measurements we will estimate that the average power that you can recover from the back-EMF spike from the coil is somewhere around 35 or 45 milliwatts.  If K4zep was to freeze a frame on his scope when the motor is turning at its steady-state speed then you can easily calculate the average motor power consumption.  You have the voltage, current, and ON and OFF times, so the power consumption calculation is pretty trivial.  I think that it is fair to say for K4zep's setup or the Steorn setup the power consumption of the motor itself is much larger than any possible back-EMF recovery based on the data that we have seen today.

You made a few references about overcoming this situation by using a much larger toroidal inductor to that your ON time is less than 1/5 tau, or time constant.  This is not going to work because then you will never manage to saturate the core and the motor will not run.

Beyond this, there is the issue of really being sure that the core is fully saturated, assuming that is your goal.  I am not sure if K4zep made any measurements to be sure if the core was fully saturated or not.  The less saturated the core is, then it "does not completely disappear" and therefore the motor will run at a lower speed.

K4zep:

I think that you made a few references to arranging your four wires that make up your toroidal coil so the inductance measures nearly zero so that the coil becomes a resistive element only.  If I am understanding you correctly then this does not make sense - with that coil wiring configuration you will not be able to saturate the core and the motor won't work.

Yes, that drives me nuts.  Something is going on there and I don't have a handle on it yet either, it just runs!!!!!

Here is where I think the discussion is right now:

Some measurements were made of the back-EMF of the coil and the average power is only in the tens of milliwatts. Correct The average power consumption of the motor itself (the energizing of the toroidal coil) is probably three or four watts. Correct These measurements are backed up by the scope traces.  In the case of the Steorn setup, the potential recovered back-EMF power is proportionally much smaller as shown in the scope traces of Sean's demo.Correct

Therefore, the idea of using the back-EMF from the toroidal coil itself to "get over the hump" and demonstrate the possibility of OU is highly unlikely but not completely ruled out.  I agree completelyIt would require that the power recovered from the separate coil energy recovery system (the pick-up coils in Steorn's setup) be nearly the same as the amount of power consumed to drive the motor.Actually the generator has to have adaquate input (torque) to generate more energy than used.  Therefore the motor must be ou to provide this energy

To repeat, for any chance of OU where we also use the recovered back-EMF power from the toroidal coil, then the separate coil energy recovery system would have to generate nearly the same amount of power as that consumed by the toroidal coil.Back emf recovery which is miniscule + generator output has to equal total electrical and mechanical losses to keep running.  ?????

I will make an important statement about the separate coil energy recovery system.  Sean clearly stated that it is a simple vanilla system where the coils output into a full-wave bridge rectifier and then charge the battery.  Many of you have played with these types of setups and you all know that there is no "magic" here.  This is just a mundane standard circuit and many of you have observed them first-hand yourselves by adding the setup to a Bedini motor, etc.  I can envision some of the true believers in Steorn insisting that there must be something special about the pick-up coils that tap into energy from Xanadu or whatever.  I will state categorically ahead of time that I reject this unfounded speculation.  It is a vanilla energy recovery system, an ordinary generator configuration that generates power the old-fashioned way.  Don't blind yourself by thinking otherwise.  I agree, without the MOTOR being OU by a factor of about 3 to one, it will not work

So, let's forget about the back-EMF power from the toroidal coil for now because we know it is very small.  Let's move on to the real issue of power into the motor as compared to the power out of the motor from the energy recovery coils as per Steorn's setup.

So, how do you make some sort of reasonable estimate of the average power out?  We already know what the average power in is, the scope traces clearly show it and it would be trivial to make the proper measurements.  We also can see a tangible manifestation of the input power because K4zep has remarked about how hot the toroidal coil gets after running the motor for a few minutes.  From the perspective of the battery, this motor looks mostly like a resistive load that burns off battery power and turns it into heat power.

So, we know the average power into the motor, perhaps two or three watts (to be confirmed by somebody) Again, mine is 5-6 watts and this is really only a demo unit just to show the motor effect works.  and we want to make an estimate of the average power out from the energy pick-up coils.

How do you do this estimate?Simple, output rectified if not sine wave by FWBR, filtered and P=EI, formulas for Sine wave AC real power into load available but as this is a DC system, simple. Thanks for your very straight forward questions/observation.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 02:12:48 PM
Why "every possible arrangement conceivable"?! Only one is enough (and there are many). When the magnetic field collapses, the energy it stored is converted in electrical energy which can be recovered without difficulty.
In the magnetic area, to open the circuit of a coil carrying a current is the same as in the electric area to shortcut a charged capacitor. In the first one we have to recovered the magnetic energy of the magnetic field (energy density = B²/2*m0), and in the second case, the energy in the electric field (energy density = E²*e0/2). There is no magic.
If Steorn claims the recovered energy is more than that one initially stored, Steorn has to prove it, not me.Yes, we all are holding our breath on that A motor powered by a charged battery is not a proof! A 1.5v, 10 A/h battery can easily sustain a low friction motor for days even for weeks.Correct


There is no interest in encouraging anyone to waste time in conventional devices known from the XIXth century, and to believe instead of analysing the facts. I suggest to spend time in more profitable tracks and to not expand the noise around Steorn while waiting their proofs.Correct
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 02:31:49 PM
@exhiloest,

Steorn has’t yet shown proof for overunity.  Correct However, Steorn has shown practical elimination of back emf. How is that conventional?  Actually a bifilar coil does eliminate BEMF OR as the motor will run the same direction on either direction of current flow, you can wire even multiples of toroids in bucking mode, balanced inductance and resistance and balance out the back EMF, both works.

I haven’t even seen yet proof that even the negligible back emf is due to the presence of the rotor. It very well may be that that’s due to imperfections in the making of the coil and will show itself even in absence of rotor. @k4zep may help us easily in clarifying this -- show the osciloscope traces i absence of rotor and see iif there's the same slight back emf. JUST CHECKED, background output of non energized coil is less than 2 mv pp, looks like noise, nothing to photograph.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 02:33:17 PM
Stephan:

Just a minor correction for you, the tau a.k.a. "time constant" is L/R, not L*R.


Many thanks. I calculated earlier something with the timconstant tau=R*C from a cap and mixed
this up. You are right, at the coil tau is L/R.
I corrected this now in my earlier postings.
Many thanks.

Quote
So from the cap charging measurements we will estimate that the average power that you can recover from the back-EMF spike from the coil is somewhere around 35 or 45 milliwatts.  If K4zep was to freeze a frame on his scope when the motor is turning at its steady-state speed then you can easily calculate the average motor power consumption.  You have the voltage, current, and ON and OFF times, so the power consumption calculation is pretty trivial.  I think that it is fair to say for K4zep's setup or the Steorn setup the power consumption of the motor itself is much larger than any possible back-EMF recovery based on the data that we have seen today.



That is right.
Because of the small setup and not optimized magnets and too large airgaps
and too low winding toroidal coil,
the power input compared to the BackEMF power recovery is not optimal in this case.

But if you build it much bigger with bigger magnets, small airgaps and
big L toroidal coils you can really get 90% of the inputted power back,
if you do it right.


Quote
You made a few references about overcoming this situation by using a much larger toroidal inductor to that your ON time is less than 1/5 tau, or time constant.  This is not going to work because then you will never manage to saturate the core and the motor will not run.


Well,you only need to use a higher voltage for the power supply,
then you reach the current level for saturation already at 1/5t of tau Ontime.

Maybe you need to use then 200 Volts as the supply voltage.

Then you would only need maybe 1 Watts of input power,
would get 0.9 Watts out via the BackEMF recycling circuit and
would get 3 Watts mechanical power output due to the rotation of the rotor
driving a mechanical load.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 02:37:13 PM
So, suppose that that’s the case – both in absence and in presence of rotor oscilloscope traces remain the same – then that would be the ultimate proof for OU. No Eout/Ein measurement needed, no calorimetry etc. If traces remain the same then a supposed 100% energy balance for the coil in absence of rotor would have retained its 100% energy balance when rotor is present but when rotor in present there will be additional rotational energy coming “out of nothing”.
IF the mechanical energy coming out of the motor and expended in the generator is more than the equivelent electrical energy to power the toroids , then we have OU, if not, just another pretty motor

Now I'm going to eat breakfast, S&S and putter around while helping wife with honeydoos and now and then wander over to my closet/bench.........
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Hi Ben,
could you please post the value of the ohmical resistance of your coil
(just measure via a multimeter with the OHM settings)
and a zoomed in scope shot of the input current into your coil,
where one can see the rising current waveform from zero amps to just the
maximum input current over maybe 8 divs in the horizontal direction
and please state milliseconds/div.


Then we can calculate the L of your coil
and also the tau timeconstant and can optimize the supply voltage and Ontime
for maximum BackEMF power recovery.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 03:00:13 PM
Hi Ben,
was the first picture DSC04415.JPG of your
posting in:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358
the timebase set to 5 millisec/div or was it set to 5 microseconds/div ?

If it was set to
5 millisec/div
the tau=L/R is about 0.5 millisec,
so if we would know the ohmical resistance of the coil,
we could calculate L= tau/R

Then you need to use a much higher DC supply voltage to only
switch on for about 0.1 Milliseconds( 1/5th tau) to  reach the same input current
level as you used now after about 2 Milliseconds.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 03:32:24 PM
Okay Ben,
let´s calculate some more:

From:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358

I can see, that you used a 10:1 divider scope head, as the
voltage in the upper trace is about 8.5 milliVolts at a 0.1 Ohm shunt
maximal input current amplitude pulse.

So it was 12.4 Volts DC input at maximum 0.85 amps then,
that gives a DC resistance of about 14.5 Ohms for the coil.

Could you please verify this with a multimeter ?
Many thanks.

As tau=L/R is the time the waveform reaches about 63 % of the maximum amplitude
it is about 0.5 Milliseconds in your scope shot. ( a higher horizontal res scope shot would help)

So we can calculate now L of your toroidal coil:

L= tau/R= 0.0005 sec / 14.5 Ohms = about 34 microHenries

So now we can calculate what amount the coil L can store maximum
of magnetic field energy when it is energized by
0.85 amps in your example:

W= 0.5 x L x I^2

So we have 0.5 x 0.000034 H x (0.85 amps)^2= 12.3 microWattsseconds

So you see the coil has much too low Henries to store enough energy
for better BackEMF recovery.

Would be good, if the coil would at least have a few hundred MilliHenries.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 04:09:35 PM
Okay, now we can calculate, what the supply voltage would need
to be, if we want to have the current level of 0.85 amps already
at 0.1 milliseconds.

As the current waveform function i(t) is:

i(t)= Vsupply / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^t/tau) )

we can solve this for Vsupply( supply voltage)

so we can rewrite this as:

with i(t)= 0.85 amps
with    t= 0.1 millisec
with tau= 0.5 millisec

Vsupply= 0.85 amps x 14.5 ohms / 0.18127 = about 68 Volts

So Ben,
if you would raise your Supply Voltage to 68 Volts and switch on your toroidal coil
just for 0.1 Milliseconds ,
you could extract about 90 % of your inputed power back
into your cap.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 04:22:45 PM
Hi Ben,
could you please post the value of the ohmical resistance of your coil
(just measure via a multimeter with the OHM settings)
and a zoomed in scope shot of the input current into your coil,
where one can see the rising current waveform from zero amps to just the
maximum input current over maybe 8 divs in the horizontal direction
and please state milliseconds/div.


Then we can calculate the L of your coil
and also the tau timeconstant and can optimize the supply voltage and Ontime
for maximum BackEMF power recovery.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,

From orginal measurements when building coil, each segment is 3.15 ohms for a total of 12.6 ohms series resistance , Each coil is 567 uH as wound and when is wired as shown has a residue of 16 uH inductance.  I did not try to balance coils by trimming windings.

Have found by experimentation that coil can run very close to magnets and while it cogs like heck, with power it runs like heck.  Also I put Hall Effect directly between coil and passing magnet for precise trigger on that individual magnet/core interface.  Runs about 800 rpm now @ 3.15 watts @ 12.6 VDC.  Mechanical limitations of my simple rotor are starting to be a problem.  Need to build a new motor. I need to add a pulse modulator where I get the same width pulse for each magnet and have the ability to narrow the width down for optimization but that is further down the track. Possibly an optical pulse interface would be more advantageous later on down the road.   It is obvious with correct number of coils, interfaced on the face of the toroid and not the side that a much more powerful motor could be built and at much lower power input.

Respectfully,
Ben
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 04:24:05 PM
Hi Ben,
was the first picture DSC04415.JPG of your
posting in:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358
the timebase set to 5 millisec/div or was it set to 5 microseconds/div ?

If it was set to
5 millisec/div
the tau=L/R is about 0.5 millisec,
so if we would know the ohmical resistance of the coil,
we could calculate L= tau/R

Then you need to use a much higher DC supply voltage to only
switch on for about 0.1 Milliseconds( 1/5th tau) to  reach the same input current
level as you used now after about 2 Milliseconds.
I simply don't remember, if VERY important, could do it again.  I didn't take notes.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 04:37:02 PM
Okay Ben,
let´s calculate some more:

From:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358

I can see, that you used a 10:1 divider scope head, as the
voltage in the upper trace is about 8.5 milliVolts at a 0.1 Ohm shunt
maximal input current amplitude pulse.

So it was 12.4 Volts DC input at maximum 0.85 amps then,
that gives a DC resistance of about 14.5 Ohms for the coil.

Could you please verify this with a multimeter ?Current resistor not percision but marked .1 ohm,  Coil is 12.6 ohms  on my good FLUKE.
Many thanks.

As tau=L/R is the time the waveform reaches about 63 % of the maximum amplitude
it is about 0.5 Milliseconds in your scope shot. ( a higher horizontal res scope shot would help)

Actual measured rist time @ 100% is 62.5 uS, very darn fast as HXFET is VERY FAST and inductance very low.

So we can calculate now L of your toroidal coil:

L= tau/R= 0.0005 sec / 14.5 Ohms = about 34 microHenries

So now we can calculate what amount the coil L can store maximum
of magnetic field energy when it is energized by
0.85 amps in your example:

W= 0.5 x L x I^2

So we have 0.5 x 0.000034 H x (0.85 amps)^2= 12.3 microWattsseconds

So you see the coil has much too low Henries to store enough energy
for better BackEMF recovery.

Would be good, if the coil would at least have a few hundred MilliHenries.  You have changed gears here and back to regenerator stuff.  We do not want any apparent inductance to get ideal suupressiosn of back emf or inductive kickback.  Funny thing in a bifilar coil there is a kickback from that strange windings .

Regards, Stefan.
[/quote/

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 05:01:16 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 26, 2009, 05:10:50 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

I hope you accept the superposition principle. Basically in this case it means the induced voltage will just add up with any other wave regardless of it's nature. If it was a constant value it would add up and show the sum of the two, but it would act the same if the initial wave was at 0 volts. So whether current is applied or not during the induced moment the result should be the same.

People have been overlooking something else with the Orbo though, I'm sure MH will notice it since he's so smart. I have some very good reasons to believe this motor is mechanical overunity not electrical. But not wasting the electrical energy by recovering it is a bonus and should defently not be ignored.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 05:16:57 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy
Hi Paul,

I remember the post and accepted it as a theory.  Also the theory of magnetic viscosity is not mentioned in nominal magnetic writings.
Would you like to elaborate on the magnetic viscosity theory?  All ideas at this point are considered and appreciated.

Respectfully.
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 05:29:18 PM
To All,

Once a theory is expressed.  Talking about it is useless unless you  build a device to demonstrate it.  I have thousands of "theories" but 90% of the theories I have tried never worked (usually because my knowledge base is incomplete or mis-understood by myself as I have eaten crow so often that I have acquired a taste for it!), ever so often when you build something you have that eureka moment and that makes it worth while.  So.......all good ideas and theories accepted on face value but based on my and I'm sure each person on the list personal set of filters mentally we will accept it or reject it.  That does NOT mean it is good or bad, just how each individual see's it.  Example....THEORY.......

It is purposed that the Steorm motor is where the OU is developed.  I feel that theory is probably correct.  Others may not feel the same but until we build a device that conclusively proves either/or, it is just a theory and not a working fact. Please don't get upset if I don't jump up and down, say hooray, what a great theory, just give your theory, then build a working model of theory and we can all jump on the bandwagen at the same time!!!!!   I will become very cross and irritated if the a theory is repeated again and again....That won't make it work.  A working model is where the rubber meets the road.

I remain.....
Respectfully,
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 05:30:33 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

That's correct. I've emphasized it too here and in another forum.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 05:31:35 PM
It might be mechanical if you consider magnetic viscosity part of the mechanical aspect. I believe Steorn's first demo long ago was purely mechanical (no coils & batteries), but Steorn claims that motor was self-running even though they had problems with the bearings supposedly because of sharp sudden jolting movements.

This new design of Steorn is also probably driven by magnetic viscosity in terms of excess energy.

How the permeability motor works:
The magnet approaches the toroid, and magnetizes it. The effective permeability at this point is low. The toroid turns on during this low permeability stage. The magnets then move away thus increasing the effective permeability, and the toroid coil then turns off, but the effective permeability is higher than when they turned on. That is how the electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability. That's why long ago in this thread I called it a permeability motor and requested Ben to do the experiment so you people could how it's working.

That's not to say Steorn's motor is not producing excess energy. We'll have to see, and I'm hopeful, but it's far far far more complex than what's being said here. The bemf is there when the current is on, and it requires current to make the motor spin. This motor does have bemf.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 26, 2009, 05:33:04 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

But isn't this the exact time the current is flowing, when the rotor magnets are leaving the coil?

I think the OU does not occur in the Steorn demonstration, only the effect of no BEMF.

The real OU has to do with the orientation of the toroid coil and the rotor magnets setup like in the operating display.
The core material is also very important!

If this effect is indeed real, the most power would then be produced in a MEG device where everything could be controlled more efficiently.


 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 05:33:37 PM
Hi Paul,

I remember the post and accepted it as a theory.  Also the theory of magnetic viscosity is not mentioned in nominal magnetic writings.
Would you like to elaborate on the magnetic viscosity theory?  All ideas at this point are considered and appreciated.

Respectfully.
Ben

How I explained this permeability motor is not my theory. It's conventional physics and is easily seen in FEMM. As far as magnetic viscosity, I already gave you link to my wikipedia user page. You probably forgot because I mentioned that it's my old magnetic research and would probably bore you.

Again, for anyone only reading this post without reading my other posts, I *am* saying there's a good chance the eOrbo obtains excess energy, but it's more complex than what's being said in this thread.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tagor on December 26, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

look at this :

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/index.htm
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 05:39:30 PM
Hi Ben,
many thanks for your verifications.

So I was not far off with my numbers from the scopeshots
and the number are in the right range.

Well, to optimize
your current motor, I would wind additional 300 windings
onto the toroidal coil or as many as you can get on there.

So this will give you a much higher L and  gives you
much more BackEMF extraction power and you
need to raise the supply voltage and switch on
for less than tau=L/R time.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 06:10:34 PM
look at this :

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/index.htm

I have been following him for years!!!!  Right on.  I wonder if there is an English translation.  I can sort of read the french enough to get the just of the subject but need more accurate information.  GREAT someone else has jumped in there and JLN is good.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 06:10:54 PM
look at this :

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/index.htm

Wow, Jean Louis shows exactly that there is no
CounterEMF induced during the rotation of the wheel,
like Ben also has already proven with his low numbers.

But as JL has 2 coils in series also the last rest of the
induction voltage is canceled when rotating manually
and measuring the CounterEMF.

Well done Jean Louis !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 06:14:07 PM
Hi Ben,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Quote
Steorn has’t yet shown proof for overunity. 
Quote
Correct
However, Steorn has shown practical elimination of back emf. How is that conventional? 
Quote
Actually a bifilar coil does eliminate BEMF OR as the motor will run the same direction on either direction of current flow, you can wire even multiples of toroids in bucking mode, balanced inductance and resistance and balance out the back EMF, both works.[/1uote]
 

That’s well and good. In addition, it seems Steorn show a spinning rotor. Thus, while the first may be conceivable, the spinning isn’t at all to be expected.

Quote
I haven’t even seen yet proof that even the negligible back emf is due to the presence of the rotor. It very well may be that that’s due to imperfections in the making of the coil and will show itself even in absence of rotor. @k4zep may help us easily in clarifying this -- show the osciloscope traces i absence of rotor and see iif there's the same slight back emf.
Quote
JUST CHECKED, background output of non energized coil is less than 2 mv pp, looks like noise, nothing to photograph.

Ben, the oscilloscope traces I have in mind are always taken when the coil is energized. Thus, energize the coils and show what the oscilloscope patern is when there’s no rotor present and then show the patterns when a rotor is present. When I discuss this I always have in mind energized coils.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 06:17:47 PM
Jean Naudin is a legend. Well done. I too wish there were an English translation of this fine study. Now, it seems we're getting more and more into a positive territory we've never been before.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 06:22:49 PM
Jean Naudin is a legend. Well done. I too wish there were an English translation of this fine study. Now, it seems we're getting more and more into a positive territory we've never been before.


Go to:  http://translate.google.com/# and paste in http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/index.htm
in the box.  Does an excellent job of translating the page!!!

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 06:23:30 PM
Google translation puts out a pretty good english version of JL Naudin´s page:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fsteorn%2Findex.htm&sl=fr&tl=en (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fsteorn%2Findex.htm&sl=fr&tl=en)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 06:30:23 PM
Google translation puts out a pretty good english version of JL Naudin´s page:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fsteorn%2Findex.htm&sl=fr&tl=en (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fsteorn%2Findex.htm&sl=fr&tl=en)


Hi Stefan,

JLN's motor is vastly superior to mine.  MY hat is off to him.  It does suck current too, about 4.5 amp pulses but that is to be expected.
OK, who's next!!!!!

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 06:32:01 PM


Stephan:

You are incorrect here.  K4zep pointed out the exponentially rising current waveform on his scope trace and stated that's where the inductor gets charged with energy and he is correct.  Once the inductor is fully charged and the current levels off, then it is just acting like a resistor dissipating energy as heat.

In Sean's demo clip, you can see how the exponential rise to charge the coils with current is around only 2% or less of the ON time.  Therefore, the back EMF that you can get from the coil discharge is only about 2% or less than than the total amount of electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.   In K4zep's most recent clip you can see the exponential curve of coil charging current levels off after about 10% of the total ON time.  Therefore in his setup you can only recover 10% or less of the total electrical energy expended to keep the core saturated.

So there is nothing free about this process if you want to recover the back EMF after the coil has done its job of saturating the ferrite core.  You have to put out a lot more energy to make the core "disappear" than you can get back in any back-EMF recovery circuit.  In a Joule Thief circuit, the charging current in the collector coil is automatically shut off once the coil is fully charged with current, it is a self-regulating process.  Therefore a Joule Thief would return a much higher proportion of the charging energy in its inductive kickback.

MileHigh

Hi Milehigh,
If you use a LR circuit which is just a coil with its internal ohmical
resistance, you can really extract 90 % of the energy of the inputed
energy, when you switch on for less than 1/5th of tau.

I did calculate this already a few years ago,
when I calculated a few Newman coils and their input energy
for varying input pulses.

To reach the required  current level for ferrite core saturation, you just have to change the
supply voltage for higher voltages,so you reach the required current level
already at 1/5th of tau switch-On-time.

Maybe I will just recalculate this again and post the formulas to see it for you ?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 26, 2009, 06:32:03 PM
Thanks Ben and Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 06:56:31 PM
Thanks Ben and Stefan.

No Problem, have watched JLN's site 3 times now.  IF the motor is OU as we suspect, he is very close, a day or so in having a self runner.
I simply do not have the resources to do what he is doing.........Life is good and JLN is back!

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tanakat on December 26, 2009, 07:05:26 PM
Any of you have seen this one ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARztYvprKkA

They're able to accelerate their motor when putting a load (only after a certain RPM is achieved) instead of slowing it down (expected effect)...

Another video in there is giving a lot of details on the setup too...

Oh, and this is my first visit here and first post, and I'm not a electronics guy at all, so bear me if this post is totally out of topic ;)

PS: I can translate french if needed (when not sure about google's results, though it seems pretty good on what I saw for JLN website)

Peace
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 07:09:32 PM
Any of you have seen this one ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARztYvprKkA

They're able to accelerate their motor when putting a load (only after a certain RPM is achieved) instead of slowing it down (expected effect)...

Another video in there is giving a lot of details on the setup too...

Oh, and this is my first visit here and first post, and I'm not a electronics guy at all, so bear me if this post is totally out of topic ;)

PS: I can translate french if needed (when not sure about google's results, though it seems pretty good on what I saw for JLN website)

Peace

Peace to you too....Yes, I keep an eye on that site.  It's pretty good.  Wait and see if they come up with a viable product.  Who knows.

Happy new Year to you also.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 07:52:54 PM
Where's everyone. Maybe everyone's building one of these now, including myself.  :)   The only difference is that I'll include a measurement to see if there's bemf >when there is current in the toroid coil!<  To say there's no bemf when there's no current is meaningless, which is what I've been trying to tell everyone far before MH even said anything. Someone in another Steorn thread said that MH is getting the credit, lol.

So IMO the excess energy would be due to magnetic viscosity, so don't think this task will be easy. Congrats to Steorn on an awesome achievement!!! And congrats to Ben & J.L.Naudin on a great first build.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 08:35:33 PM
Where's everyone. Maybe everyone's building one of these now, including myself.  :)   The only difference is that I'll include a measurement to see if there's bemf >when there is current in the toroid coil!<  To say there's no bemf when there's no current is meaningless, which is what I've been trying to tell everyone far before MH even said anything. Someone in another Steorn thread said that MH is getting the credit, lol.

So IMO the excess energy would be due to magnetic viscosity, so don't think this task will be easy. Congrats to Steorn on an awesome achievement!!! And congrats to Ben & J.L.Naudin on a great first build.

Hi Paul,

Still kicking around here.  Helping wife, and learning a lot from JLN's motor......Wow.  I understand what you are saying about current in the coil or no bemf.  Both in a motor and generator but remember again the old adage about the chicken and the egg.  Remember the old E before I and I before E in an inductor and Cap?  We are all looking at the same motor through our eyes of experience and the final result is the same.  Your right in there paddling with the rest of us.  I apologize that I haven't been over to the other site yet.....Can only keyboard so much.......and I have to build a new motor too.  Got all the info I can out of my tin can motor.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 26, 2009, 09:05:46 PM
Hi All,

I must apologize...

I am getting old, it seems:
After 2 hours of calculations and trying to drive my brain mad,
I came to the conclusion, that I was posting something wrong earlier,
when I said, one could extract about 90 % of the inputed coil energy.

Now after recalculation I came to the conclusion that I was wrong and
mixed something up.

The numbers are a bit lower.

If you have a RL series circuit and put an constant voltage pulse in it
with a varying time:

Vsupply x i(t) x t = Input Energy
where
Vsuppy is the constant voltage
i(t) is the current through the RL series circuit
and
t= switch-On time interval
tau= L/R timeconstant

you can calculate the input energy for the time t.

Now input energy for this time interval is defined as:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

This is the total energy drawn during t from the constant voltage
power suppy.

Now we can compare this with the energy stored inside the coil
which is Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

We will find the coil current after the time interval t with the formular:

i(t)= Vsupply / R coil x ( 1 - (e^-(t/tau)) )

So if you calculate i(t) after the time interval and put it into
Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

you will know the stored energy inside the coil and then
you can divide this value through the input energy
value:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

As the results you get:
if you choose:
at
t= 1/10 tau you store 47 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 1/5 tau you store 45 % of the energy input into the coil
t= tau you store 31 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 5 tau you store 15 % of the energy input into the coil


So you see, at 1/10 tau Ontime you can only recover less than
47 % of the input energy back into a capacitor.

So it was not 90 % but only less than 47 %.

But still this is a way to avoid too many losses
to just switch on only  way less than tau and
use a high supply voltage so the saturation current level
is already reached during this short ontime interval.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 09:27:19 PM
Hi All,

I must apologize...

I am getting old, it seems:
After 2 hours of calculations and trying to drive my brain mad,
I came to the conclusion, that I was posting something wrong earlier,
when I said, one could extract about 90 % of the inputed coil energy.

Now after recalculation I came to the conclusion that I was wrong and
mixed something up.

The numbers are a bit lower.

If you have a RL series circuit and put an constant voltage pulse in it
with a varying time:

Vsupply x i(t) x t = Input Energy
where
Vsuppy is the constant voltage
i(t) is the current through the RL series circuit
and
t= switch-On time interval
tau= L/R timeconstant

you can calculate the input energy for the time t.

Now input energy for this time interval is defined as:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

This is the total energy drawn during t from the constant voltage
power suppy.

Now we can compare this with the energy stored inside the coil
which is Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

We will find the coil current after the time interval t with the formular:

i(t)= Vsupply / R coil x ( 1 - (e^-(t/tau)) )

So if you calculate i(t) after the time interval and put it into
Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

you will know the stored energy inside the coil and then
you can divide this value through the input energy
value:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

As the results you get:
if you choose:
at
t= 1/10 tau you store 47 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 1/5 tau you store 45 % of the energy input into the coil
t= tau you store 31 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 5 tau you store 15 % of the energy input into the coil


So you see, at 1/10 tau Ontime you can only recover less than
47 % of the input energy back into a capacitor.

So it was not 90 % but only less than 47 %.

But still this is a way to avoid too many losses
to just switch on only  way less than tau and
use a high supply voltage so the saturation current level
is already reached during this short ontime interval.

Regards, Stefan.

Nah, when you really want to believe, numbers are always high.  The 47% sounds very good and in the box!  So we need a COP at least 2 to break even and probably 3+++ to overcome charging efficiency.  Damn good work!!!!  Keep an eye on JLN.  When he gets going, he gets going!!!!!

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 10:55:06 PM
Hi Ben & all,

I just built a test unit, nothing as complete as yours Ben coz I don't have the parts here, but so far I can't get the darn FEMM results, lol! When current is applied to the toroid, the secondary AC voltage goes down.

Even stranger yet, I could swear the darn thing is getting cold. Within about 15 minutes I'll post some photos. This setup is only to analyze the effect, not to get it self-running. So the magnets are on a dremel rotary motor. The entire dremel gets warm, which conducts to the magnets, but if I center the magnets it sure seems like they cool down. To give an idea, the ambient temperature from the thermal gun at the time during these measurements was ~ 67.2F, and if the magnets are not centered (or at least they didn't seem centered to me) then I recall them being ~ 71.2F, but after trying to center the magnets I've seen them get as low as 66.6F. It's not always easy to get a good thermal gun reading while one hand is trying to balance a dremel drill and other hand is trying to take a temperature reading, so who knows if there's something to this. Probably not, but conventional physics says the magnets cannot get colder than ambient temperature. Thermal gun measurements need to be consistent since it depends on the material you're pointing at, as some materials have lower thermal emissivity than others.

Has anyone noticed this cooling effect?
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 11:10:09 PM
Here's a few snap shots. Now I'll go mount the dremel so I can focus on taking temperature measurements. To be honest, temperature was the last thing on my mind, but I kept noticing how cold the was, so I ran to get my thermal gun.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 26, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
@k4zep,

I saw in your video that you have the toroid facing flat to the magnets. In the Steorn
motor the toroid was facing the magnets with the hole. In your setup the magnets
can induce current in the coil because some part of the coil is being crossed by
the magnets at 90 degrees angle. In the Steorn motor the magnets can not induce
current in the coils because the magnets did not cross the wires at 90 degrees angle.
Naduin got it right and put the toroid as in Steorns motor. Any comments to this?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 11:17:14 PM
Here's a photo of the toroid.

As far as the magnets, there are 4 NdFeB. There are two on each side, one facing north and the other facing south.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 26, 2009, 11:39:04 PM
@k4zep,

I saw in your video that you have the toroid facing flat to the magnets. In the Steorn
motor the toroid was facing the magnets with the hole. In your setup the magnets
can induce current in the coil because some part of the coil is being crossed by
the magnets at 90 degrees angle. In the Steorn motor the magnets can not induce
current in the coils because the magnets did not cross the wires at 90 degrees angle.
Naduin got it right and put the toroid as in Steorns motor. Any comments to this?

Groundloop.

I think Steorn is making it look like that orientation can vary. Because indeed it would seem like the demo floor units have "standing" toroids:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/4207191067/sizes/l/in/set-72157622929469887/

while the video demo unit has "laying" toroids:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial#p/u/0/S5nae_I_Mus

One may or may not have an advantage over the other.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 11:43:46 PM
Holy cr-ap! I have to somehow get my video camera footage up to youtube. This is still inconclusive, but the entire setup had been sitting unused for ~ 1/2 hour, I mounted the dremel mouter and the non-contact thermal gun, then turned on the dremel motor and the temperature began dropping right before my eyes.

Wait till you see the video.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 26, 2009, 11:44:15 PM
@broli,

Yes, you are right, thank you.

I will try "standing" toroid because then no magnetic field can cross my wires.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: happyfunball on December 27, 2009, 12:01:25 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/sets/72157622929469887/
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 12:24:14 AM
Here's the video footage of the temperature dropping. It goes far below ambient temperature. Please read the youtube video description for further details,
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY
 
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 27, 2009, 12:40:36 AM
All,

Anybody know if the magnets are all the same polarity facing out?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 12:44:14 AM
The attached image is how I have the magnets connected.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 12:48:10 AM
The youtube video description was just updated -->

Quote
The setup consist of a toroid with coil winding and a dremel motor. On the end of the dremel is a round piece that allowed me to attached 4 NdFeB magnets, two on each side (180 degrees apart). If we look at one side (two magnets) we'll see one magnet that is facing us is south and the other magnet is north. The toroid coil is not loaded and there's no current flowing through the coil.

A bunch of people at overunity dot com have been discussing how the Steorn eOrbo might be working, and I've been doing similar magnetic simulations in FEMM for years. So I decided to slap together a quick experiment to see if I saw a particular effect. While running the machine, I kept noticing how cold it appeared, but thought that was due to air circulation. So I grabbed the non-contact IR gun and to my surprise the machine was colder than ambient temperature. So I mounted everything, the dremel motor, the IR gun, and took this footage.

The ambient temperature is over 67F. The dremel had been running for while earlier, but the dremel and everything was resting unused for ~ 1/2 hour prior to taking this video. So IMO the temperature of the dremel was not that high during this footage.

The wires connected to the toroid are connect to a volt meter, the oscilloscope, and a power supply, all of which were off during this footage.

One thing that seems odd is that the dremel rpm will suddenly change by a lot. I've used this dremel a lot, and it never varies like by itself. It seems the load or magnetic viscosity in the toroid is greatly varying.

This is inconclusive, as I need to be certain. It's just too good to be true. If I find out anything new I'll post another video. Thanks for any positive feedback.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 12:56:51 AM
I think Steorn is making it look like that orientation can vary. Because indeed it would seem like the demo floor units have "standing" toroids:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/4207191067/sizes/l/in/set-72157622929469887/

while the video demo unit has "laying" toroids:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial#p/u/0/S5nae_I_Mus

One may or may not have an advantage over the other.

Hi Broli,

I have seen photos both ways as you show.  I think from a torque and canceling effect the best way is how JLN did it, FACE on the toroid.  My motor while demonstrating the effect is horrifically inefficient and about ready for the parts box.  I will be building a much more robust motor over the next 2 or three weeks because IF it is a ou device it must be able to run for months on end.  I want to build a HI rpm motor and drive a low rpm generator reducing the motor by a factor of 4-6 to further amplify torque.  I am truly happy to see other people building and thinking.  Great things will come from this!!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 01:00:03 AM

I'll be discussing my Steorn experiments & stuff in the tech thread -->

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8528.new;topicseen#new

 ;D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 27, 2009, 01:01:01 AM
Hi Ben,

How did you put the magnets? All North, all South or alternating?

Alex.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 01:01:12 AM
Stephan:

Quote
Well,you only need to use a higher voltage for the power supply,
then you reach the current level for saturation already at 1/5t of tau Ontime.

Maybe you need to use then 200 Volts as the supply voltage.

Then you would only need maybe 1 Watts of input power,
would get 0.9 Watts out via the BackEMF recycling circuit and
would get 3 Watts mechanical power output due to the rotation of the rotor
driving a mechanical load.

This all sounds nice but I don't see that working out in real life.  For example, if you are implying that you only reach saturation at the end of the 1/5 tau, then your "saturation duty cycle" is very low and the motor may or may not work.  Also, the amount of time the core is saturated may not be long enough based on the speed of the rotor.  That would imply that you need a setup where by 1/5 tau the core will have been fully saturated for 4/5 of the 1/5 tau time.  That means that you have to supply an excess of current and "over-saturate" just so you can keep the core mostly saturated.  In addition, you may have to do several 1/5 tau cycles, one after the other, just to keep the core mostly saturated for a long enough time for the magnet fly-by.

You can mix and match the excitation voltage, maximum current at the end of 1/5 tau, the number of windings around the toroid core, and the number of times you have to do the 1/5 tau pulses to keep the core mostly saturated for a long enough time.  I don't smell any victory at the end of this process.  You can compare how much energy you expended to keep the core partially saturated to how much energy you recovered from the BEMF collection capacitor and we know that the energy that you expended will be greater than the energy collected in the capacitor.

When you compare the above with just a normal energizing of the toroidal coil like we see in K4zep and Steorn's clips, it would not surprise me if the total net energy expended for the "complex" setup described above as compared to the simple straightforward setup would be the same.  There is a good chance that the total net energy expended for the complex setup would be even more than the energy expended for the simple setup.  Also, don't forget that the simple setup keeps the core 100% saturated for almost all of the time, while the complex setup would look like some variation of a sawtooth waveform for the current, where the core is not 100% saturated for almost all of the time.

I smell a no-win situation here and I have seen similar cases where people try all sorts of complex solutions to their problems and in the end the simple straightforward solution is the best solution.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:06:42 AM
Here's the video footage of the temperature dropping. It goes far below ambient temperature. Please read the youtube video description for further details,
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY

Paul,

Do you have a current flowing in you coil?  It appears that you have demonstrated a new way to get Magnetic cooling in a common substance.  I suspect that RPM would effect the cooling.  A basic schematic of what you are doing would also be helpful!!!  Might have to start a new thread on the really excellent discovery!!!!!  See, great things, Ideas are coming out of the wall and growing right before our eyes!!!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 01:11:24 AM
K4zep:

I am slowly catching up on the thread and this statement by you caught my eye:

Quote
IF the mechanical energy coming out of the motor and expended in the generator is more than the equivelent electrical energy to power the toroids , then we have OU, if not, just another pretty motor

Please keep in mind that there is no mechanical energy coming out of your motor or Steorn's motor.  You often see Bedini enthusiasts running their motors and talking about the mechanical energy output also.

To be very sobering, any motor that is not connected to a mechanical load is outputting zero mechanical energy and is 0% efficient at turning electrical input energy into mechanical output energy.  Watching it spin and knowing that it is overcoming bearing resistance and air resistance simply does not count.

What would count would be to connect a thread to the shaft and have a pulley setup where the motor could lift a weight up at a certain speed.  That would be a real mechanical output from the motor.  The caveat is that the rotor has to be running at a constant RPM when this is being done.  If the rotor is decelerating when this is being done, then you are just extracting stored up rotational energy from the moment of inertia of the rotor itself, and that doesn't count.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:11:50 AM
Hi Ben,

How did you put the magnets? All North, all South or alternating?

Alex.

Hi Alex

I have mine all NNNNNNNNNNNNN but SSSSSSSSSSSSSS should work.  Actually as it will run the same way on opposite current flow, I suspect it would work on a N S N S N S...............Funky isn't it!!!!!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 27, 2009, 01:13:54 AM
Ben,

Thanks. :-)

Alex.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:18:01 AM
K4zep:

I am slowly catching up on the thread and this statement by you caught my eye:

Please keep in mind that there is no mechanical energy coming out of your motor or Steorn's motor.  You often see Bedini enthusiasts running their motors and talking about the mechanical energy output also.

To be very sobering, any motor that is not connected to a mechanical load is outputting zero mechanical energy and is 0% efficient at turning electrical input energy into mechanical output energy.  Watching it spin and knowing that it is overcoming bearing resistance and air resistance simply does not count.

What would count would be to connect a thread to the shaft and have a pulley setup where the motor could lift a weight up at a certain speed.  That would be a real mechanical output from the motor.  The caveat is that the rotor has to be running at a constant RPM when this is being done.  If the rotor is decelerating when this is being done, then you are just extracting rotational energy from the moment of inertia of the rotor itself, and that doesn't count.

MileHigh

Hi MH,

Absolutely dead on on ALL your observations above.  In JLN's motor, there is significant power being expended at 2500 RPM due to bearing drag and air loading. Until we get some better motors built with multi-toroids and multi magnets, I won't be convienced yet as to what we really have here or not.  You could load JLN's with a prop and use a prop torque/thrust program to calculate simple output that would be close especially if you geared it up 2 or 3 to 1 to get the prop up to a good speed.  Time will tell when the good builders get theirs going, get a prony brake on it and leterrip......Now if they have a lenzless or no drag generator, that would be something but that has yet to be shown and think there is no mention of that from Stoern.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:24:51 AM
K4zep:

I am slowly catching up on the thread and this statement by you caught my eye:

Please keep in mind that there is no mechanical energy coming out of your motor or Steorn's motor.  You often see Bedini enthusiasts running their motors and talking about the mechanical energy output also.

To be very sobering, any motor that is not connected to a mechanical load is outputting zero mechanical energy and is 0% efficient at turning electrical input energy into mechanical output energy.  Watching it spin and knowing that it is overcoming bearing resistance and air resistance simply does not count.

What would count would be to connect a thread to the shaft and have a pulley setup where the motor could lift a weight up at a certain speed.  That would be a real mechanical output from the motor.  The caveat is that the rotor has to be running at a constant RPM when this is being done.  If the rotor is decelerating when this is being done, then you are just extracting rotational energy from the moment of inertia of the rotor itself, and that doesn't count.

MileHigh

Again, I agree totally.  The weight bing picked up is one way to calculate it.  An even simpler way would be to add a generator coil/s, rectify, filter, put in a resistive load which could be varied and from several points or measurements develop a curve of the demonstrable power output of the device.  A simple Prony brake would also work.  Its all in the details for sure.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 01:42:27 AM
@MileHigh,

On the contrary. Rotational kinetic energy does count. If the energy balance shows that rotational kinetic energy plus the heat is greater than the electrical input energy that will be a genuine OU machine.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 27, 2009, 01:43:39 AM
@Ben:

Could you try this generator mode experiment out. While the motor is being spun, you put the scope probes across the toroid leads. Then what you do is grab the toroid by hand and start playing around with it by orientating it differently with angles and what not. And see how the scope behaves. What you are trying to looking for is whether the amplitude of the voltage increases when in a certain orientation if not we can say that orientation doesn't matter for generation mode.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 27, 2009, 01:49:37 AM
Please keep in mind that there is no mechanical energy coming out of your motor or Steorn's motor. 

Someone advized me to just ignore your bullshit but sometimes it aches too much to ignore. The sentence above proves this once again.

Maybe you have been oblivious to the fact that Steorn is directly converting mechanical energy to electrical using a conventional generator mounted on top. It will be intresting to see how you will down play this episode of yours. You have some people fooled here but you won't fool me.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 02:52:44 AM
Paul has made comments about a cooling effect with his setup.  This is most likely due to the increased air velocity and there is a real explanation for it but I am not qualified to give it.  Plus the fact that the thermal temperature reading gun sees an "pulsed" image of the rotating magnets so who knows what that will do to to the readings.  He has also made references to magnetic viscosity being the "key" and I don't buy it at all.  There is no possible mechanism for magnetic viscosity to generate energy, it's just a pipe dream.  Early on in the thread he mentioned it possibly came "from the vacuum" and I don't buy that either.  I don't get what Paul is talking about when he says that you have to measure the BEMF when current is flowing in the coil.  As I stated previously, with the coils being driven by a battery source, the small amount of measurable BEMF will be manifested by a slight modulation in the current flowing through the toroidal coil.  Finally, Paul mentioned that something like "It is not as simple as it seems" and I don't buy that either.

Ben's and Steorn's setups are quite simple, Lenz's Law applies but you don't see much in terms of Lens's Law effects when you use a toroidal coil because the coil windings tend to cancel each other out.

Omnibus:

Quote
On the contrary. Rotational kinetic energy does count. If the energy balance shows that rotational kinetic energy plus the heat is greater than the electrical input energy that will be a genuine OU machine.

The rotational kinetic energy of the rotor does not count.  That energy just represents the accumulated energy from the electrical pulses from when the motor starts at zero RPM until it reaches its steady-state speed.  In Ben's and Steorn's clips, the motors run at a constant RPM and drive no mechanical load.  You cannot add the rotational kinetic energy to the heat produced and compare that to the electrical input energy.  That statement makes no sense on several levels.  The rotational kinetic energy is expressed in Joules and the heat energy is expressed in Watts.  The electrical input energy (Joules) is in reality the electrical input power (Watts).

Broli:

Quote
Someone advized me to just ignore your bullshit but sometimes it aches too much to ignore. The sentence above proves this once again.

Maybe you have been oblivious to the fact that Steorn is directly converting mechanical energy to electrical using a conventional generator mounted on top. It will be intresting to see how you will down play this episode of yours. You have some people fooled here but you won't fool me.

You have attached me viciously several times now in this thread and I want it to stop right now.

Stefan, if you are reading this could you please tell Broli to stop attacking me?

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 03:30:55 AM
I am going to comment on Paul's depiction of how the motor works:

Quote
How the permeability motor works:The magnet approaches the toroid, and magnetizes it. The effective permeability at this point is low. The toroid turns on during this low permeability stage. The magnets then move away thus increasing the effective permeability, and the toroid coil then turns off, but the effective permeability is higher than when they turned on. That is how the electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability. That's why long ago in this thread I called it a permeability motor and requested Ben to do the experiment so you people could how it's working.

That's not to say Steorn's motor is not producing excess energy. We'll have to see, and I'm hopeful, but it's far far far more complex than what's being said here. The bemf is there when the current is on, and it requires current to make the motor spin. This motor does have bemf.

For starters, here is now the motor works:  During the approach phase of the rotor magnet to the core, the magnet is attracted to the ferrite core of the toroid.  We will assume that at top-dead-center the toroidal coil is energized and saturates the core.  During the departure phase of the rotor magnet leaving the core, there is no more attraction between the magnet and the core because the core is saturated.  Therefore the rotor picks up a net gain in rotational energy from the rotor magnet being attracted to the toroidal core during the approach phase only.

Quote
The magnet approaches the toroid, and magnetizes it. The effective permeability at this point is low.

We will assume that the rotor magnet does not come anywhere near saturating the toroidal core because of the distance and overall geometry of the setup.  Therefore the permeability of the core remains high in this case.

Quote
The toroid turns on during this low permeability stage. The magnets then move away thus increasing the effective permeability

Once the toroidal coil energizes the ferrite core we are going to assume that the field generated by the coil dominates over the external field of the moving rotor magnet and the core remains saturated.  Therefore when the magnets move away, the permeability of the core does not change.  The core remains saturated and has a low "invisible" permeability.  Only after the current flowing through the toroidal coil shuts off does the core regain its high permeability by virtue of the fact that it is not in saturation any more.

Quote
the toroid coil then turns off, but the effective permeability is higher than when they turned on. That is how the electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability.

The first sentence is kind of hard to understand.  You can say that "electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability" but that is rather obtuse and hard to understand.  Electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy because you selectively burned electrical power to prevent the deceleration of the rotor during the departure phase when the magnet is leaving the vicinity of the ferrite toroidal core.  The acceleration of the rotor was due to the attraction of the magnet to the toroidal code during the arrival phase.  Therefore the Steon and Ben's setups are a form of attraction motor.

Quote
We'll have to see, and I'm hopeful, but it's far far far more complex than what's being said here.

It's actually all really quite simple because both of Steorn's setups and Ben's setups are normal under unity motors that obey Lenz's laws and all of the other laws governing energy interaction.

The real thing is to look at the power out vs. power in and try to understand how that works for any pulse motor, including the Steorn pulse motor setups.   You are going to have to look into your hearts and souls to try to figure out why Sean claims his pulse motor setups are over unity devices when in fact they aren't.

Why didn't they simply use a capacitor?

Or, perhaps more importantly they could have done the following for the main Lucite motor setups:

1.  Connect the differential voltage probe across the 1.5 volt source battery.
2.  Connect the current probe to the output wire from the battery powering the motor.
3.  Push a button on the high-end DSO and get an output power reading.
4.  Connect the current probe to the power return wire coming from the generator coils section.
5.  Push a button on the high-end DSO and get an input power reading.
6.  Compare the power reading in step #5 with the power reading in step #3 to confirm or deny their claim of three times the power being returned to the battery as compared to what was being consumed by the battery.

Stop and think for a second.  They had all of the measurement equipment in place and it would have taken a maximum of 10 minutes to make the measurements above but they did not do it.  Look into your hearts and souls and try to find the answer to that question.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 27, 2009, 04:23:59 AM
MH maybe I should make a really big post quoting you on things you have been saying on a FREE ENERGY OPEN SOURCE RESEARCH FORUM which is called OVERUNITY.COM. I don't even have to look farther than your above post:

both of Steorn's setups and Ben's setups are normal under unity motors that obey Lenz's laws and all of the other laws governing energy interaction.

I swear to god if you keep these negative rants up which you have made in countless threads without any single figment of experimentation or open mindness I will make it my sole purpose on this forum to get you banned from it. Consider it a miracle Stefan hasn't made that choice yet. Either reconsider your unreasonable and complete disbelieve in the sole purpose and cause of this forum or you will be removed from it like garbage.

You have been forwarned.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 04:32:59 AM
Broli:

Quote
I swear to god if you keep these negative rants up which you have made in countless threads without any single figment of experimentation or open mindness I will make it my sole purpose on this forum to get you banned from it. Consider it a miracle Stefan hasn't made that choice yet. Either reconsider your unreasonable and complete disbelieve in the sole purpose and cause of this forum or you will be removed from it like garbage.

I am just looking for the truth and you stop what you are doing right now because the banning is going to happen to you, not me.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 06:38:32 AM
@MileHigh,

Quote
The rotational kinetic energy is expressed in Joules and the heat energy is expressed in Watts.  The electrical input energy (Joules) is in reality the electrical input power (Watts).

Sheer incompetence. And you dare to pontificate in this forum?

Since when energy is expressed in Watts?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 27, 2009, 07:00:13 AM
@MileHigh,
I would like to believe that most of us here understand the complications with what Steorn is claiming.
However, They also said there is more to come in the next few weeks and it will be validated by a third party and proven beyond any doubt to be OU.
Even though I agree with many of the points you are making, I don't enjoy eating crow, especially on the side of the road with a bent fork.
I am dying to test this theory myself on a MEG generator where there would be much better control but at this point there may still be more to the operation of orbo than has been shown.


Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 07:18:42 AM
Omnibus:

Quote
Since when energy is expressed in Watts?

You are correct and I made a slip-up.  Talking about heat can be ambiguous sometimes because "heat" can mean energy or power, and it is worth it to be clear whether you are talking about one or the other.  I have caught myself making the mistake many times in the past.

Your comments are gratuitous though because you may as well apply the same standard to yourself about your statement:

Quote
On the contrary. Rotational kinetic energy does count. If the energy balance shows that rotational kinetic energy plus the heat is greater than the electrical input energy that will be a genuine OU machine.

That statement doesn't make any sense.

Lumen:

It will be interesting indeed to see what Steorn has to say in a few weeks if they deliver.  I would not be surprised if nothing new happens until 2011 like I stated before.  Also, like I just posted, they had all the equipment in place to prove or disprove if their Lucite pulse motors were over unity or not over unity.  It would have taken 10 minutes to do with the DSO but they didn't.  Why?

I will repeat what I said the other day for you and others to ponder:  We have ruled out back-EMF from the toroidal coils as a means for achieving over unity, and we are left with looking at the electrical power fed to the motor versus the electrical power returned to the battery from the generator coil setup.  How do you make a reasonable estimate of what that will be?  Ben took a crack at it but he made no estimate, he just briefly described a methodology.  Any takers?

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 07:27:05 AM
Quote
because "heat" can mean energy or power

Absolutely not. And, don't try to hide your incompetence by saying that what I write doesn't make any sense. It does.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 07:35:02 AM
Omnibus:

Quote
On the contrary. Rotational kinetic energy does count. If the energy balance shows that rotational kinetic energy plus the heat is greater than the electrical input energy that will be a genuine OU machine.

Can you elaborate on your statement above?  You say that it makes sense so please flesh out the details with three or four paragraphs so that we can have a much clearer understanding of what you mean.  Right now I don't understand it at all.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 07:42:07 AM
@MileHigh,

You don't make a distinction between energy and power. To you there is ambiguity regarding heat in terms of energy or power. You're incompetent and that's the elaboration you deserve. The best thing to do is to stop  wasting the bandwidth of this board because there are important things to discuss here and the least such discussion neads is an incompetent but very active participant to interefere.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2009, 07:58:35 AM
Omnibus:

So you won't elaborate on your statement?  C'mon go for it, don't hide.  Please clarify what you really mean to say.

Yes, you have stated that I am incompetent several times now.  However, any person reading this thread would disagree with you, I have tried to make a valuable contribution and got the discussion going.  So you just end up making yourself look like a fool by calling me incompetent for one tiny mistake.  You are just playing the "bad guy."

Please elaborate on your statement, don't say "You're incompetent and that's the elaboration you deserve." because that is childish nonsense.

Quote
On the contrary. Rotational kinetic energy does count. If the energy balance shows that rotational kinetic energy plus the heat is greater than the electrical input energy that will be a genuine OU machine.

What does the above statement mean because I can't make any sense of it.  If you don't answer I won't ask again.  I will simply assume that you can't in fact back up your statement and you are chickening out.

MileHigh
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: icanbeatbob on December 27, 2009, 09:18:42 AM
Ok boys........step back.........ain't no sense in anyone else getting hurt.

Just what I have been waiting for. The big egos drop in a take over the thread so as to prove their empirical knowledge in a public forum.

Whatever your justification is to disrupt or manipulate this tread is rude, and/or immature, and/or disrespectful. I am sure you will reply with your justification of why it is so important to give us your wisdom, and the theory behind it.

Let this thread be. If not, kiss a fat hogs ass.

Respectfully, yet fully disappointed in you kids,

Brad
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: eatenbyagrue on December 27, 2009, 09:54:50 AM
I think I can clear up the Omnibus/Milehigh issue.

Milehigh, what I think Omnibus is saying is the situation where say, you have a pulse electrical force that causes the rotor to rotate.  If after the pulse, you measure the kinetic energy in the rotor, plus heat energy given off, if that is greater than the pulse electrical input, you have overunity.

Omnibus, while you are correct in this, you completely failed to understand Milehigh's point.  He is talking about a continuous motor, where once it gets going, the kinetic energy in the rotor is indeed irrelevant.  When the rotor is already spinning, it takes almost zero energy to keep it spinning.  The only friction is bearing and the minimal air resistance.  So if the motor was up for like a month, do you really care about the kinetic energy in the rotor anymore?  No, it's miniscule, a rounding error, when calculating overunity.  The calculation is going to be electrical input over the month's time versus heat energy (bearings, air resistance) given off.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: wings on December 27, 2009, 11:06:46 AM
Egostorm??

I have made my motor using high impedance toroid taken from a differential protection sensor, a fan and reed .
With the high resistance I had a supply voltage above 100 V.
No success, the only effect was to squeak the toroid, the resonance remanis also reducing the voltage.
I suggest to don't use the reed it interferes with the magnet for a wide area of rotation, and also generates interaction torque.
the toroid was positioned tangential.
Nex step hall sensor circuit and toroid face to face the magnet.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: sky on December 27, 2009, 11:28:46 AM
Enjoying the thread. Just wish some of the people posting would try to remember that this is a research forum, where people come to try and discover a way to make a cheaper source of energy.
Reading on nearly every page that steorn should have used a load to prove his motor works is really annoying.
I mean seriously? You really need to repeat the fact that the product hasn't been proven to work on every single page? And in every thread that you participate in? Isn't the fact that people are experimenting with ways to make it work enough of a statement to that end?
Another poster said that it would be nice if a muting option could be added to this forum and I agree. If you know that it can't be accomplished and believe that a theory you know prevents it from being possible then you only need to state it once in the thread. Continually repeating that something can't work or shouldn't work is not a contribution.

Repeating the fact that over unity is proven by using a viable method of measuring input vs. output is not a contribution either (unless someone posts the fact that they need ideas on how to measure input vs. output). Would be great if stefan made this one sentence a forum rule that resulted in instant banning. It would probably eliminate 10% of the posts on this forum. ;)

Talking about things that might make it work, is a contribution, and god bless those of you that continue to do so inspite of the trolls. K4Zep your level of tolerance is impressive. A few others blew their tops long ago.
Sorry to clutter the thread further.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 11:32:42 AM
The english version is up now :

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm

I tried to calculate input power using the scope shot.
A = 18 Amp (10A/div)
V = 8 V (5V/div)
Duty cycle = 25% (2ms on, 6 ms off)
P = 18*8*0.25 = 36 W
Energy spent in a sec = 36 J

As there is no load, all energy gets stored as kinetic energy of a flywheel.
KE of rotor = 0.5*m*r^2*w^2
 = 0.5 *0.25 *0.075*0.075*(2*3.14*2520/60)^2
= 49 J (assuming a 250g rotor)
or 35 J (assuming a 180g rotor)

So the rotor must weigh more than 200g for OU. I did a rough calculation and the weight of magnets alone comes out to be 720g !! (which means an output of 140 J and efficiency of 300%, same as claimed by steorn)
Plz correct, if I made any mistakes.
 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 11:59:28 AM
@Omega_0,

Very good. That also answers @eatenbyagrue's point about the kinetic energy of the wheel.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 12:24:06 PM
Egostorm??

I have made my motor using high impedance toroid taken from a differential protection sensor, a fan and reed .
With the high resistance I had a supply voltage above 100 V.
No success, the only effect was to squeak the toroid, the resonance remanis also reducing the voltage.
I suggest to don't use the reed it interferes with the magnet for a wide area of rotation, and also generates interaction torque.
the toroid was positioned tangential.
Nex step hall sensor circuit and toroid face to face the magnet.

Hi Wings,

I have found that increasing the input voltage in an effort to get the rotor to turn only resulted in more wasted energy being dissipated as heat in the coil. I actually have had far more success by reducing the input voltage as much as possible whilst changing my rotor/coil arrangement to result in far more torque. But the most important thing I found was that by using a piece of iron or ferrite next to the torroidal drive coils, the torque was significantly increased for very low input voltage and power.

Please see the following pictures. I am able to run this motor on as little as 0.25 watts at low RPM from 50-100rpm. Thats an input of 250ma at 1V. Without those washers you see next to the coils, there is no way this motor will run on such little power. I am using a reed switch for the switching which works fine for low voltages.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 12:31:55 PM
Hi Wings,

I have found that increasing the input voltage in an effort to get the rotor to turn only resulted in more wasted energy being dissipated as heat in the coil. I actually have had far more success by reducing the input voltage as much as possible whilst changing my rotor/coil arrangement to result in far more torque. But the most important thing I found was that by using a piece of iron or ferrite next to the torroidal drive coils, the torque was significantly increased for very low input voltage and power.

Please see the following pictures. I am able to run this motor on as little as 0.25 watts at low RPM from 50-100rpm. Thats an input of 250ma at 1V. Without those washers you see next to the coils, there is no way this motor will run on such little power. I am using a reed switch for the switching which works fine for low voltages.

Regards,

Ossie

Ossie,

EXCELLENT MY OL FRIEND!!!!!

You have an excellent contribution to the art on several points, maybe what you have discovered is how the steorm unit works on 1.25 VDC by using the back up washers!!!!!.  I noticed that JLN had a large mass behind his coils that looked like ferrite too.  MOST EXCELLENT....Good to see you are in the game!!!!!  I am at my computer now.  Email as usual.

Ben K4ZEP
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 27, 2009, 12:40:01 PM
MH maybe I should make a really big post quoting you on things you have been saying on a FREE ENERGY OPEN SOURCE RESEARCH FORUM which is called OVERUNITY.COM. I don't even have to look farther than your above post:

I swear to god if you keep these negative rants up which you have made in countless threads without any single figment of experimentation or open mindness I will make it my sole purpose on this forum to get you banned from it. Consider it a miracle Stefan hasn't made that choice yet. Either reconsider your unreasonable and complete disbelieve in the sole purpose and cause of this forum or you will be removed from it like garbage.

You have been forwarned.

I think Broli is right and MileHigh needs a rest from posting
twisting the facts over here, so I have set him on read only.

@Ossi,
well done !
Looking forward to see a few measurement numbers from you.
Nice enhancement with the iron washers !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 27, 2009, 12:40:53 PM
...
Steorn has’t yet shown proof for overunity. However, Steorn has shown practical elimination of back emf. How is that conventional?
...

Steorn do not eliminate back emf, they recover the energy of the back emf.
A simple circuit with a diode connecting the coil to a capacitor can recover the back emf energy when the current in the coil is switched off. For example, all switching power supplies recover back emf, it is conventional technics. Even beginners in electronics engineering know it. It is the same in motors, and it is the reason their efficency can go up to 95%.




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 12:45:54 PM
Ossie,

EXCELLENT MY OL FRIEND!!!!!

You have an excellent contribution to the art on several points, maybe what you have discovered is how the steorm unit works on 1.25 VDC by using the back up washers!!!!!.  I noticed that JLN had a large mass behind his coils that looked like ferrite too.  MOST EXCELLENT....Good to see you are in the game!!!!!  I am at my computer now.  Email as usual.

Ben K4ZEP

Thanks Ben,

It is amazing how by just playing with a torroidal coil, magnets on a rotor and a battery, you can get far more insight into how this motor works and it starts becoming obvious as to how improvements maybe made. In fact, it now appears to me that what Steorn has presented publically is only the very basic embodiment of this motor which really produces the most minimal torque. As long as you use torroidal coils as your motor drive coils, which do not see the rotor magnet's field, then I am sure there are very many ways that the torque can be increased significantly.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 12:50:34 PM
Steorn do not eliminate back emf, they recover the energy of the back emf.
A simple circuit with a diode connecting the coil to a capacitor can recover the back emf energy when the current in the coil is switched off. For example, all switching power supplies recover back emf, it is conventional technics. Even beginners in electronics engineering know it. It is the same in motors, and it is the reason their efficency can go up to 95%.

Take a look at @Omega_0 calculation. That'll clarify the issue for you.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:33:33 PM
Steorn do not eliminate back emf, they recover the energy of the back emf.
A simple circuit with a diode connecting the coil to a capacitor can recover the back emf energy when the current in the coil is switched off. For example, all switching power supplies recover back emf, it is conventional technics. Even beginners in electronics engineering know it. It is the same in motors, and it is the reason their efficency can go up to 95%.

Hi All,

As the mechanics are bi-directional with timing the only issue as to rotational direction, the BEMF resulting when the coil/s are turned off ADDS to the rotation and hence efficiency.  Don't need to harvest it, it is already used if diode across the coil!!!!!!!  It is a moot issue.  Being married to two women (one after the other ha)  for 42 years and 4 kids has made me a verry mellow fellow.  Egos here/a persons competance/ slip ups, all part of life, don't mean "nuttin".  Ideas, theories, results, and HAVING FUN AND SAYING WOW WOW when you see something work and then trying to figure out why when the workings turn your "theoretical" world upsides down is where it is at!!!!!
ALL, keep up the good work!!  And whomever the pest is that keeps locking the site down, simply quit it.......

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
@Ossi,
well done !
Looking forward to see a few measurement numbers from you.
Nice enhancement with the iron washers !

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

OK, here they are. Motor being powered from batteries via a 1 ohm shunt resistor. Voltage to motor after shunt is 2.2 volts. Average current on analogue ammeter is 300ma. Rotor is spining at 180 RPM. Circuit is a simple series circuit of battery, shunt, reed switch and coils, that's all. The two torroidal coils are in parallel. Here are the scope shots.

The first scope shot is across the shunt resistor. The second scope shot is across the coils (Both are in parallel).

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 01:43:34 PM
Hi Ossie,

Can you also weigh out the rotor so that we can make Omega_0 calculation. It'll be very nice if Ben also does this. Thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 01:46:22 PM
Hi Gang,

Does everyone realize that we have experimenters on every continent working on this now.  All are contributing in their own way to the effort to understand  this effect!!!!!  Absolutely most excellent!  The internet has made this possible, the rapid melding of minds and ideas.  Astonishing.  I stand in AWE.

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 01:51:23 PM
Hi Ben,

Indeed. And this (whether or not the machine is OU) can be resolved within hours. Measure correctly the input energy (that's pretty straightforward), weigh the rotor (straightforward as well) and observe the rpm's it's spinning at steady state and do @Omega_0 calculations. By tonight we'll know the answer coming in from all continents.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
Another replication by someone, no batteries this time :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDS03F5mX7g

And JLN's new video, basics demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjhh0Jwj7vo
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 02:06:32 PM
Hi Ben,

Indeed. And this (whether or not the machine is OU) can be resolved within hours. Measure correctly the input energy (that's pretty straightforward), weigh the rotor (straightforward as well) and observe the rpm's it's spinning at steady state and do @Omega_0 calculations. By tonight we'll know the answer coming in from all continents.

I have a doubt there. The current is being measured across a 0.01 ohm shunt, so do I need to adjust the value of the current somewhere ?
Can someone cross check that calculation pl?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 02:09:28 PM
Hi Ossie,

Can you also weigh out the rotor so that we can make Omega_0 calculation. It'll be very nice if Ben also does this. Thanks.

Hi OB,

OK, this was the best I could do. See pics below. Motor runs at 180 RPM for an input of 2.2V at 300ma or 0.66 watts.

Approximate rotor weight is 350 grams.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 02:14:33 PM
Another replication by someone, no batteries this time :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDS03F5mX7g

And JLN's new video, basics demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjhh0Jwj7vo

Hi OM,

There is a power supply/battery there just out of sight.  6VDC, big cap. filter. DC current is not right on meter on left, DVM/DIM does not work correctly with that duty cycle, must use scope and current shunt to do it right.  BUT GREAT RUNNING MOTOR!!!!!!

JLN getting ducks in row!

Respectfully
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 02:15:12 PM
@Omega_0,

Your method of calculation is the correct one and is the most direct way to prove OU in this case. We need to know also what the exact weight of the rotor is. I sent an e-mail to Naudin to that effect. No reply yet. As for the shunt, if it is a calibrated shunt the voltage drop measured across the shunt will give you the current precisely.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 02:26:51 PM
Hi OB,

OK, this was the best I could do. See pics below. Motor runs at 180 RPM for an input of 2.2V at 300ma or 0.66 watts.

Approximate rotor weight is 350 grams.

Regards,

Ossie

HI OB,

My rotor weighs 33 GRAMS!!!!!  About 800 ma peak/50% duty cycle, average of 400 ma @ 10 volts, 800 rpm.  Give or take..........or 3.2 watts. 

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 02:29:13 PM
Hi OM,

There is a power supply/battery there just out of sight.  6VDC, big cap. filter. DC current is not right on meter on left, DVM/DIM does not work correctly with that duty cycle, must use scope and current shunt to do it right.  BUT GREAT RUNNING MOTOR!!!!!!

JLN getting ducks in row!

Respectfully
Ben

I guess I mistook the big cap as the power source. There is no explanation of the setup there. You are correct, the readings on the meters are wrong, one needs a scope in such cases.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 02:36:04 PM
@Omega_0,

Your method of calculation is the correct one and is the most direct way to prove OU in this case. We need to know also what the exact weight of the rotor is. I sent an e-mail to Naudin to that effect. No reply yet. As for the shunt, if it is a calibrated shunt the voltage drop measured across the shunt will give you the current precisely.

Thanks.. :)
Surely, if the shunt is exactly 1 ohm, the scope will read the current directly. Here it is 0.01. I'm a bit confused, because adjusting the scope reading gives 1800 Amp as peak current which is absurd.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 02:38:30 PM
Sorry Ossie and Ben, one more thing. What's the diameter of your rotor?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 02:40:49 PM
Sorry Ossie and Ben, one more thing. What's the diameter of your rotor?

Mine is 100mm or 4 inches. I used two disks used for cutting metal with angle grinders. Standard 4 inch angle grinder disks.

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 02:56:16 PM
Thanks.. :)
Surely, if the shunt is exactly 1 ohm, the scope will read the current directly. Here it is 0.01. I'm a bit confused, because adjusting the scope reading gives 1800 Amp as peak current which is absurd.

Be sure that resistor is .01 OHM.  You can verify that resistance using ohms law and a constant current power supplly.  Put 1 amp into resistor and measure voltage across it.  IF 10 mv, .01 ohm, if 100 mv, .1 ohm, if 1 ohm, will be 1 VOLT.  E=IR.  We have a known current and a unknown resitance......Measured E is 10 mv, therefore R=E/I.........OK  NOW that you are sure of your resistance.......

Ohms law. E (across shunt)=I (current thrugh shunt) X (times) R (resistance of shunt) or E=IR.  IF current is 1 amp and resistance is .01 ohm, voltage measured across resistor will be .01 Volts. (10 mv.)  Now you know the voltage across shunt per. amp.  Set your scope  Vert. to 10 mv/div and each amp will be one division or 100 mv/div and then 10 amps will be one division......  The important thing is to know how many mv is developed across that shunt/ amp.  In this case 10 mv! SCOPE always ground to ground side of power supply.   OK..... Instrumentation 101

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 02:58:16 PM
Sorry Ossie and Ben, one more thing. What's the diameter of your rotor?


Sprite drink al can.......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa   hummmmmmmm................How bout 65 mm. give or take 68 with magnets.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 02:59:02 PM
Sorry Ossie, but yours appears to be undeunity (if the unaccounted for heat losses don't turna that around). So, let's review what you have:

Input energy every second:
E = 2.2V
I = 0.3A
duty cycle = 0.48
Therefore, energy spent every secon is:
W = 0.48 x 2.2V x 0.3A = 0.32W or 0.32J every second

Output energy (only rotational kinetic energy):
Mass of rotor = 0.35kg
Radius of rotor = 0.05m
Rotations per second = 180/60 = 3rps
KE = 0.5 x 0.35kg x 0.05m x 0.05m x (2 x 3.14 x 3)^2 = 0.16J

Therefore, efficiency = 0.16/0.32 = 0.5 (heat losses unaccounted for) which is far from OU.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 03:12:24 PM
Hi Ben,

This is what appears to come out from your data:

Input energy every second:
E = 10V
I = 0.4A
duty cycle = 0.5
Therefore, energy spent every secon is:
W = 0.5 x 10V x 0.4A = 2W or 2J every second

Output energy (only rotational kinetic energy):
Mass of rotor = 0.033kg
Radius of rotor = 0.034m
Rotations per second = 800/60 = 13.3rps
KE = 0.5 x 0.033kg x 0.034m x 0.034m x (2 x 3.14 x 13.3)^2 = 0.13J

Therefore, efficiency = 0.13/2 = 0.065 (heat losses unaccounted for) which is even farther from OU than Aussie's.

There's an almost an order of magnitude discrepancy between yours and Aussies' so maybe some of the data aren't correct. Could you please double check just to make sure. Thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 03:24:14 PM
Hi Ben,

This is what appears to come out from your data:

Input energy every second:
E = 10V
I = 0.4A
duty cycle = 0.5
Therefore, energy spent every secon is:
W = 0.5 x 10V x 0.4A = 2W or 2J every second

Output energy (only rotational kinetic energy):
Mass of rotor = 0.033kg
Radius of rotor = 0.034m
Rotations per second = 800/60 = 13.3rps
KE = 0.5 x 0.033kg x 0.034m x 0.034m x (2 x 3.14 x 13.3)^2 = 0.13J

Therefore, efficiency = 0.13/2 = 0.065 (heat losses unaccounted for) which is even farther from OU than Aussie's.

There's an almost an order of magnitude discrepancy between yours and Aussies' so maybe some of the data aren't correct. Could you please double check just to make sure. Thanks.

Darned if I know, I sure have good bearings!  Perhaps if you subtracted the heat loss which in my case is really almost 100% of the energy used!,  you would see what the motor is actually doing, but not the system.  The we can zero in on preventing resistive heat loss later! 

Respectfully,

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 27, 2009, 03:31:56 PM
Sorry Ossie, but yours appears to be undeunity (if the unaccounted for heat losses don't turna that around). So, let's review what you have:

Input energy every second:
E = 2.2V
I = 0.3A
duty cycle = 0.48
Therefore, energy spent every secon is:
W = 0.48 x 2.2V x 0.3A = 0.32W or 0.32J every second

Output energy (only rotational kinetic energy):
Mass of rotor = 0.35kg
Radius of rotor = 0.05m
Rotations per second = 180/60 = 3rps
KE = 0.5 x 0.35kg x 0.05m x 0.05m x (2 x 3.14 x 3)^2 = 0.16J

Therefore, efficiency = 0.16/0.32 = 0.5 (heat losses unaccounted for) which is far from OU.

Hi OB,

Don't be sorry. Thanks for the effort. Much more things to explore. Steorn is supposedly going to report on heat in the motor in January so we shall see just how much heat versus mechanical energy equals input for them. For my motor, I don't know. But it will be a factor. Anyway, I did a video of the running motor. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-gXQagKSNc

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 03:50:08 PM

Wow, I can't believe my eyes,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8528.msg217758#msg217758 (http://index.php?topic=8528.msg217758#msg217758)

Please discuss any temperature related stuff in that thread, otherwise I'll probably miss your post.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 27, 2009, 03:58:49 PM
Hey guys. Today I have attempted to do Orbo replication, but sadly I didn't do enugh wire turns on toroids core, so they don't saturate. Will try to make new toroids soon.

Crapy quality video made with cellphone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qvaQxtpQrM

Photo:
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 04:05:30 PM
The link in my previous post suddenly broke, lol, oddly enough. Here it is again,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8528.msg217758#msg217758
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: powercat on December 27, 2009, 04:15:45 PM
Did anyone see this one.
dmmpower.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAoTrqnZpfg
cat
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 27, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
hi guys,

I have found this:
"The current required to get the temporary depolarization of the magnetic domains of the ferrite is fully independent of the mechanical torque produced on the motor shaft."

as JLN says: "Braking the rotor rotation has no influence on the amplitude of the pulse current measured"

but I ask: what happens with duty cycle of this pulses...

so you see, everything adds... no free energy ;)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 05:01:52 PM
Hi OB,

Don't be sorry. Thanks for the effort. Much more things to explore. Steorn is supposedly going to report on heat in the motor in January so we shall see just how much heat versus mechanical energy equals input for them. For my motor, I don't know. But it will be a factor. Anyway, I did a video of the running motor. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-gXQagKSNc

Regards,

Ossie

Never kill the messenger, use the message.  What you are saying is "if we can reduce the resistive heating, we will go OU."

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: teslaalset on December 27, 2009, 05:04:00 PM
hi guys,

I have found this:
"The current required to get the temporary depolarization of the magnetic domains of the ferrite is fully independent of the mechanical torque produced on the motor shaft."

as JLN says: "Braking the rotor rotation has no influence on the amplitude of the pulse current measured"

but I ask: what happens with duty cycle of this pulses...

so you see, everything adds... no free energy ;)

It is my understanding that the energy you put into the coil is smaller than the kinetic energy the wheel gains by the attraction of the ferrit while a magnet approaches.
Dutycycle does matter, but you should keep the switch on time short enough to gain energy.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 05:24:03 PM
Sorry Ossie, but yours appears to be undeunity (if the unaccounted for heat losses don't turna that around). So, let's review what you have:

Input energy every second:
E = 2.2V
I = 0.3A
duty cycle = 0.48
Therefore, energy spent every secon is:
W = 0.48 x 2.2V x 0.3A = 0.32W or 0.32J every second

Output energy (only rotational kinetic energy):
Mass of rotor = 0.35kg
Radius of rotor = 0.05m
Rotations per second = 180/60 = 3rps
KE = 0.5 x 0.35kg x 0.05m x 0.05m x (2 x 3.14 x 3)^2 = 0.16J

Therefore, efficiency = 0.16/0.32 = 0.5 (heat losses unaccounted for) which is far from OU.

Hi OM,

Something not quite right here.  It shows if we got our input down to .16 J cop would be 1 all other things being the same. Less than .16 J all things still equal, OU.  Steady state also shows IF you made the rotor heavier at same speed, more weight would help the numbers, less friction, etc. would also help the numbers.  The numbers say that all losses in the rotor as stated, .16 J is required to overcome all losses and then the extra energy is resistive losses, heat. 
,
It seems that we are calculating KE at steady state only but not the KE when you turn it on and ramp up and turn it off, ramp down in speed and NO energy is used as it slowly stops, much longer period than the run up and is VERY high OU...Total over time.....Something is not right...........I"ll be the first to say MATH is not my strong subject, I do not think in equations but in pictures of dynamic systems...That and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee......Again this just for a more thorough discussion of these numbers.

To generalize, it would seem to say that we should ramp up to equilibrium, turn it off, use the energy over time when rotor is OU as heck with  ZERO J input,, turn it on, ramp up till nominal RPM, turn it off, generate, etc.  Only use the rotor energy to generate energy in the coast down time eliminating the resistive heating effect loss during that period.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 27, 2009, 05:30:44 PM
It is my understanding that the energy you put into the coil is smaller than the kinetic energy the wheel gains by the attraction of the ferrit while a magnet approaches.
Dutycycle does matter, but you should keep the switch on time short enough to gain energy.

If this what you are saying would be true, than we would have a self running motor..
But as I understand that is not the case..

So what could I possibly do with free energy which is totaly consumed by friction losses and heating?  ;D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: teslaalset on December 27, 2009, 05:33:17 PM
Ben, OM,
Calculating powers at constant RMP (2500) gives you the power needed to sustain constant speed. In other words: losses by the wheel meet exactly the input power (COP is exactly 1)

Since the input power seems constant even during ramping up, the COP > 1 situation is only occurring during acceleration.
To calculate the highest COP value, we need to know the ramping up time and the weight of the wheel
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: teslaalset on December 27, 2009, 05:48:53 PM
If this what you are saying would be true, than we would have a self running motor..
But as I understand that is not the case..

So what could I possibly do with free energy which is totaly consumed by friction losses and heating?  ;D

The replication setup by Naudin shows that the wheel in not very aerodynamic. If you slow it down by getting electrical energy out of the second wheel (putting receiving coils near the wheel), there will be less air losses, while input power is similar

A lot of optimization has yet to been done. This is only the beginning.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 06:04:45 PM
Hi Ben,

That's correct. If you slash down the input power, everything else being equal, or increase the rotor weight, everything else being equal, etc. there will be OU. Problem is you touch one variable, for the motor as is, and everything else gets affected.

As for the steady-state, that's exactly where the KE formula applies to. The wheel turns, right? The way the bullet flies, correct? Bullet has a given KE, corresponding to its mass m and velocity v, hasn't it? Same thing with the wheel -- it has mass m and angular velocity. The input energy per second sustains a given angular velocity of that rotor of given mass m. If you din't feed it continuously the rotor will wind down and will lose its rotational KE.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: eatenbyagrue on December 27, 2009, 06:19:10 PM
The english version is up now :

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm

I tried to calculate input power using the scope shot.
A = 18 Amp (10A/div)
V = 8 V (5V/div)
Duty cycle = 25% (2ms on, 6 ms off)
P = 18*8*0.25 = 36 W
Energy spent in a sec = 36 J

As there is no load, all energy gets stored as kinetic energy of a flywheel.
KE of rotor = 0.5*m*r^2*w^2
 = 0.5 *0.25 *0.075*0.075*(2*3.14*2520/60)^2
= 49 J (assuming a 250g rotor)
or 35 J (assuming a 180g rotor)

So the rotor must weigh more than 200g for OU. I did a rough calculation and the weight of magnets alone comes out to be 720g !! (which means an output of 140 J and efficiency of 300%, same as claimed by steorn)
Plz correct, if I made any mistakes.

Hang on fellas, Omnibus and Omega O.  This doesn't quite make sense.

The rotor maintains a constant RPM, so its kinetic energy is not increasing over time.  Yet the motor continues to consume electical energy.

So to me, the kinetic energy in the wheel does not really enter into the analysis of overunity.  We have to measure the load on the wheel, if any, plus friction losses.  That is the work done here, not spinning the wheel.

To give a gross example of what I mean.  Let's say this device was in a vacuum, so no air resistance.  And let's say the bearings involved were truly zero friction.  So it takes zero energy to maintain the spin.  But if the device continued to consume, let's say, 10J per second to keep running, while RPM was not increasing, the device would be clearly under unity, no matter how fast or how heavy the flywheel was.

I am not trying to clutter the thread, but if someone is trying to measure overunity this way, maybe there is a better way.

Please tell me where my logic is wrong, I am trying to understand.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 27, 2009, 06:33:16 PM
The whole system may need to vary transaction time. On the approach, the rotor needs to store all the energy it can since this is free energy, then when the coil is energized, the magnets need to pull away quickly, faster than the approach. This would unbalance the transaction time and cause an energy gain.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 27, 2009, 07:11:48 PM
It's probably the reed switches failing.

tachoman said that the  reed switches arent designed for these types of spikes.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 07:57:22 PM
The whole system may need to vary transaction time. On the approach, the rotor needs to store all the energy it can since this is free energy, then when the coil is energized, the magnets need to pull away quickly, faster than the approach. This would unbalance the transaction time and cause an energy gain.

H Luman,

Close, On the approach it is free energy as the magnet is sucked in.  Then upon energization, it needs to coast on by without any loss of speed, hence saving the free energy that was added to wheel in the wheel.  So, there is one  positive vector force speeding up the wheel as the magnets are sucked into the core, another zero or negative vector force depending on efficiency of the coil/core system, a constant negative vector from air drag at equilibrium, a constant negative vector force of the bearing drag and I have to have missed a couple others.
Then too, the simple math. assumes a constant speed when in fact the wheel is constantly speeding up and slowing down but these are small variables.  It would seem that with a load, with lower aerodynamic forces, the efficiency would be higher but again that is a small number.  A nice live dynamic torque meter would be a neat analytical tool here wouldn't it?

Respectfully,

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 27, 2009, 08:32:18 PM
Hang on fellas, Omnibus and Omega O.  This doesn't quite make sense.

The rotor maintains a constant RPM, so its kinetic energy is not increasing over time.  Yet the motor continues to consume electical energy.

You guys have a point, that's why I asked for a second opinion on the calculations, I was not very sure. It seems that we need to take into account the whole time needed to bring the rotor from stop to the max RPM.

So if it takes t sec to get to a speed of 2520 rpm, the input energy becomes
E = 36*t J

This energy is stored as usual as KE, as there is no load. Any input after this will not contribute to increase in KE (This is a strange case, as the input is independent of output here, unlike a normal motor).

We don't have the rotor weight, but lets take worst conditions here. So to be OU, it should take

49 > 36t
or 49/36 > t
or t < 1.36 sec  to reach 2520 rpm

(Assuming a rotor weight of 720g, t = 4 sec). Of course, if you can recover the input energy back into the battery , t will increase.

So now it seems less probable that JLN setup is OU, but the real test will be to load the motor, without which all calculations are mere guesswork and should not be taken seriously :) :)

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 27, 2009, 08:41:30 PM
The way I see it, in the eOrbo, the electrical input to the toroids does NOT drive the rotation of the rotor in any direct way.  Yet the rotor will ACCELERATE.  If F=ma holds true (giggling to myself now...), then we are witnessing a Force, F, causing this acceleration.  And that force is NOT due to the input electrical energy being used to switch the toroids!

I believe the electrical input energy used to switch the toroids is 100% conserved.  You can try to recover it if you like.  But whatever you do not recover is lost in the system as HEAT.  That conversion of electrical energy to heat should be 100% efficient by CoE (again, lol).

The fact that the rotor spins at all is the evidence of OU.  Unless anyone can prove that some of the electrical input energy to the coils is directly causing the force that creates acceleration of the rotors.  If input energy and rotation are completely separate, then it must be OU.

Does the electrical input directly cause the rotors to accelerate?  If so, that relationship should be measureable.  So far, I see a lot of evidence that there is no such relationship.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 27, 2009, 08:50:41 PM
The way I see it, in the eOrbo, the electrical input to the toroids does NOT drive the rotation of the rotor in any direct way.  Yet the rotor will ACCELERATE.  If F=ma holds true (giggling to myself now...), then we are witnessing a Force, F, causing this acceleration.  And that force is NOT due to the input electrical energy being used to switch the toroids!

I believe the electrical input energy used to switch the toroids is 100% conserved.  You can try to recover it if you like.  But whatever you do not recover is lost in the system as HEAT.  That conversion of electrical energy to heat should be 100% efficient by CoE (again, lol).

The fact that the rotor spins at all is the evidence of OU.  Unless anyone can prove that some of the electrical input energy to the coils is directly causing the force that creates acceleration of the rotors.  If input energy and rotation are completely separate, then it must be OU.

Does the electrical input directly cause the rotors to accelerate?  If so, that relationship should be measureable.  So far, I see a lot of evidence that there is no such relationship.

This is the exact same thing I started to believe. The mechanical motion has no say in the electrical system. The kinetic energy gained from the force acting on the rotor is completely free and came out of thin air so to speak. I have a much simpler thought experiment on this which I'm currently setting up a presentation for.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 27, 2009, 09:07:26 PM
@broli,

Exactly my thoughts also. I think if we use a bifilar wound toroid and capture
back almost 80 - 90 % of the energy spent saturating the coil, and also pick
up some coils voltages spikes, then this motor will be over unity.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: esaruoho on December 27, 2009, 09:15:35 PM
I have been following him for years!!!!  Right on.  I wonder if there is an English translation.  I can sort of read the french enough to get the just of the subject but need more accurate information.  GREAT someone else has jumped in there and JLN is good.

Respectfully
Ben

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm)
also
http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/steffecten.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/steffecten.htm)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 09:15:39 PM
@eatenbyagrue,
Quote
Please tell me where my logic is wrong, I am trying to understand.
 

The way I understand it is this. Powering of the coil cores has nothing to do with the presence of the rotor. Energy balance of the coils is 100% in any event. Now when a rotor is present there’s only an interaction between its magnetic field and the magnetic field of the cores without any back influence (back emf) of the rotor on the coils. Thus, the rotational energy of the rotor comes as a bonus, as FE, not affecting the 100% input energy.

That’s why, the calculation we should do is probably to add that FE to the input energy and then divide that sum by the input energy itself. Overunity is demonstrated just by the fact that the rotor spins.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
I was discussing this earlier in the village of the banned forum and I'm glad that it beginning to be the understanding here too. Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 27, 2009, 11:27:12 PM
So to optimize the CoP, forget the electrical input to switch the toroids (just try to minimize current needed for saturation unless you want a space heater as a by product of your motor/generator).  Focus on maximizing the attraction of the magnets to the ferrite cores, ie.  ferrite materials, distances, switch timing, etc...

Maximize the (free) torque.  That has nothing to do with the electrical power input.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 27, 2009, 11:38:33 PM
Just a thought... I wonder if putting a ring magnet behind the toroid would help?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 11:38:36 PM
So to optimize the CoP, forget the electrical input to switch the toroids (just try to minimize current needed for saturation unless you want a space heater as a by product of your motor/generator).  Focus on maximizing the attraction of the magnets to the ferrite cores, ie.  ferrite materials, distances, switch timing, etc...

Maximize the (free) torque.  That has nothing to do with the electrical power input.

That's correct. That's exactly how I understand it. Very clever, indeed.

To prove conclusively that that's the case one needs to use a pulse generator (instead of having the rotor trigger the pulses) and see whether or not presence of rotor will have any effect on the electrical characteristics of the coils. If there's no influence OU properties of the motor will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 27, 2009, 11:43:38 PM
Just a thought... I wonder if putting a ring magnet behind the toroid would help?
Problem is, you need to create changing magnetic field that would interact with the magnetic field of the rotor without the rotor affecting the creation og the core magnetic field in any way (that is, without the rotor magnets affecting the electrical characteristics of the coils).

This is something like a permanent magnet OU motor whereby, as a separate system, there are coils having perfect energy balance.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 28, 2009, 12:32:59 AM


I was just thinking that maybe a magnet behind the toroid could help increase torque on the rotor. Would the magnet effect the rotor when the toroid coils are energized?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 01:14:26 AM
Oke we already know there's no EMF when the circuit is shorted and the magnets being rotated. But still not absolutely certain if the same can be said when current flows. In order to remain sane and progress here's a simple setup that can resolve this easily and put an end to that discussion.

Wind a bifilair toroidal core, so you have two coils wound around the same core. First hook either one of the coils to the scope and confirm there's indeed no induced EMF when the magnets are spun. Now take one coil and hook it to DC and leave the other coil on the scope. The other coil will act as a pickup and show any induced EMF that would be present in the main DC coil, without being distorted by the voltage of the battery. If again there's nothing then we can conclude there's also no voltage when DC is applied.

I hope someone performs this test as it's an important one to reach closer to the complete understanding of this motor. If there is no EMF then that's it for me, I'll do everything I can to build a home unit, because then I know this is absolutely overunity.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 28, 2009, 02:33:11 AM
@Broli,
The test that was done on the Steorn motor showed the current draw to remain flat after the coil was energized. This would seem to indicate that if the current was flat then there was no back EMF even when the coil was energized. Any forward or back EMF would have shown on the trace.

I think the real problem now, is the required pulse width while waiting for the rotor to pass, consumes too much power. The core material is the key! What has high permeability and low saturation point. Some grades of ferrite do but most have very high saturation because this is a good quality for transformers.
I think it may be better to use some low carbon steel as the core with the main problem being the eddy currents. If the core was wound of soft steel wire, it may be better than most of the ferrite. It may be that a powdered iron core would be better. In any case I think this may be the next direction. 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
Hi All,

I have found that with the addition of a stator magnet appropriately arranged behind the torroid coil, the torque of the rotor is dramatically increased for the same input power! Please see the following diagram and arrangement.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 28, 2009, 03:15:45 AM
Hi All,

I have found that with the addition of a stator magnet appropriately arranged behind the torroid coil, the torque of the rotor is dramatically increased for the same input power! Please see the following diagram and arrangement.

Regards,

Ossie
 

Hi Ossie,

Your creativeness is like a breath of fresh air!!!!  Excellent work.....As usual, I'm breathing dust now in your wake!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 03:43:26 AM
The fact that the rotor spins at all is the evidence of OU.  Unless anyone can prove that some of the electrical input energy to the coils is directly causing the force that creates acceleration of the rotors.  If input energy and rotation are completely separate, then it must be OU.

Although I'm with all of you and all this work, and behind everyone 100%, I must respectfully disagree with this statement.  Just because the rotor spins, is not proof of OU at all.  Also, just because the rotation, and input energy are totally separate, it still does not prove OU.  I agree, it's necessary to prove OU, but it's not enough alone. Like others have mentioned, the work the rotor can do, has GOT to be measured to prove OU.  It's no different than lifting a boulder to the top of a hill and letting it go.  You lifted the boulder to the top of the hill. (input energy).  The boulder rolled down the hill. (output energy).  You did not shove the boulder down the hill, you let gravity and all other outside forces act on that boulder to force it down that hill.  Therefor input energy was totally separate from output energy, yet without storing the potential (pulsing the toroid) into that boulder, the energy from the environment would not be able to act upon it.  It still was not OU.  What we are hoping to see with Orbo design, is that gravity chooses to shove that boulder harder for us, without us having to do anything else.

I think it is important that we all keep our heads, and don't make more out of something than we have yet.  We have a very interesting concept, that shows an extreme amount of promise.  Many are moving step by step and proving one piece at a time of OU. The OU in this motor is going to show up in mechanical energy.  But it's the conversion back into electrical energy that will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.  We still have to tackle Lenz Law in the generator side...  I think we will get there.  But let's take it one step at a time...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 03:47:41 AM
Hi All,

I have found that with the addition of a stator magnet appropriately arranged behind the torroid coil, the torque of the rotor is dramatically increased for the same input power! Please see the following diagram and arrangement.

Regards,

Ossie
Awesome, thanks for testing that.  I brought that up the other day to try, but I have been waiting for a day off of work so I could start building and testing myself!  Good work!

Another thing that may be key to experiment with, is to see the difference made when using stronger, and weaker magnets compared to energy used to release the magnetic attraction.  I am hoping when you hit the correct power in that saturates the toroid, we may be able to increase the power of the magnets without requiring more input energy.  After all, stronger magnets, stronger rotor attraction, but maybe the same energy needed to let it pass by.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 28, 2009, 04:41:32 AM
It should always take the same current to saturate the core regardless of the passing magnets strength. Just find a core that saturates in a weaker field and it should use less current.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 28, 2009, 05:09:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0YZyI75bM

"As you can see, the moving magnets do generate EMF in the coil; when the coil is energised with a DC current, the magnitude of the EMF generated by the magnets decreases, as shown on the oscilloscope.

What is yet to be determined is whether the EMF is actually decreasing as a result of "shielding", or being smoothed out by the battery, acting much like a capacitor to smooth ripple."
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2009, 05:30:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0YZyI75bM

"As you can see, the moving magnets do generate EMF in the coil; when the coil is energised with a DC current, the magnitude of the EMF generated by the magnets decreases, as shown on the oscilloscope.

What is yet to be determined is whether the EMF is actually decreasing as a result of "shielding", or being smoothed out by the battery, acting much like a capacitor to smooth ripple."
holy crap he says 'ahh' way too much. the guy needs a script or something. trying to decipher what the man is trying to say amidst all the pauses, umms and ahhhs... is almost painful. nice construction on the marinov though.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 06:04:53 AM
It should always take the same current to saturate the core regardless of the passing magnets strength. Just find a core that saturates in a weaker field and it should use less current.

That's what I was meaning.  I can't seem to get any larger toroids locally anywhere, so I decided to go ahead and use about 3/4" I got from the shack. May end up more like an Orbo toy, lol.  Not very big, but it may help me see results at fairly low current. It should be easy for me to test different strength magnets with it to see if I can get more power, without having to use more energy once I find the sweet spot. I'll post what I come up with.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 09:27:15 AM
erased
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 10:23:42 AM
They are NOT separate, observe duty cycle of drive pulses!
So braking does not influence amplitude, but it sure does influence duty cycle which means more energy to coils... that is exactly what steorn video shows... it is sad that very few people can see this and that the rest are so easily fooled..

Way to pluck one sentence out of a paragraph, quote it, and use it out of context.  The jist of what I was saying was EVEN IF input was separate from output, more is needed to prove OU.  There are many working bench models now, and under way to prove one way or another on whether input is separate from output or not.  Mine is not done yet, so I can't say for sure either way yet.

I'm not trying to start an argument, this thread is moving and learning very quick. But I am curious why someone with a tag line such as yours is even wasting your time on a forum called OverUnity?  After all, you obviously feel that "There is no free energy! Resistance is futile"...  I'm kind of thinking your other nickname hit read only status, so now we get the pleasure of hearing from you under a different name?  :-\
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 10:35:31 AM
They are NOT separate, observe duty cycle of drive pulses!
So braking does not influence amplitude, but it sure does influence duty cycle which means more energy to coils... that is exactly what steorn video shows... it is sad that very few people can see this and that the rest are so easily fooled..
Wrong. Duty cycle doesn't change.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 10:53:59 AM
I find it odd, that a few hours after MileHigh earns read only status, Silvije pops on here with his infinite knowledge of negative inspiration, after not posting since September?  Hmmm... What a coinsidence...  I wonder... nah, couldn't be that they are one in the same person... Shhhh... Your secret is safe with me Silvije, we wont let anyone know that your MileHigh, and you cant respect Stephan asking you to stop trying to hold everyone back, and you just sneak in here under another nickname and keep trying to obstruct progress... 
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 10:57:23 AM
erased
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 28, 2009, 11:06:49 AM
They are NOT separate, observe duty cycle of drive pulses!
So braking does not influence amplitude, but it sure does influence duty cycle which means more energy to coils... that is exactly what steorn video shows... it is sad that very few people can see this and that the rest are so easily fooled..

Omnibus is correct, the duty cycle does not change.

What is truly sad is that people can't see the 12 magnets below the stator backed up with 4 shorted coils, remember Thane Heins's claim of no  CEMF, which is what Steorn is now doing and see that ORBO is probably a rip off since it doesn't look like the flux switching thing they have published in the past.

I have not followed them much but 12 magnets, 4 coils and a claim of no CEMF screams HELLO! Thane just got jacked by the Irish.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 11:12:55 AM
ok, I hear you... I just wanted to stress that they are not separate..
I agree to disagree.  Even though you cant have one without the other here, they do look separate as of yet.  We'll see how it turns out.  I hold high hopes.

Quote
other thing I could ask you the same thing, why are you wasting your time here as there is no proof of free energy yet... but I will not ask you that... you are free to believe ;)

Same reason most of us are here.  To learn as much as I can, and help as much as I can, in the search for truth.  But I do not care to hurt any progress by filling up this thread with mindless, off topic crap.  I'm going back to building, so maybe I can have a little more hands on data to ad to this group, and get off theory.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 11:16:03 AM
ok
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 11:23:22 AM
shit I am going to build it...

duty cycle really does not change... I was thinking something else but my english is other story...

you might be right guys..

I apologize for rush statements...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
erased
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 28, 2009, 11:29:55 AM
shit I am going to build it...

duty cycle really does not change... I was thinking something else but my english is other story...

you might be right guys..

I apologize for rush statements...

It is the frequency that is changing, as the rotor gains speed. Duty cycle has nothing to do with OU, you can minimize the duty cycle to arbitrary values, depending on the rotor geometry and core properties.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
@Reincarnate,

Can you point to a link where Thane Heins'motor is described in more detail?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 28, 2009, 12:14:40 PM
Hi All,

As the mechanics are bi-directional with timing the only issue as to rotational direction, the BEMF resulting when the coil/s are turned off ADDS to the rotation and hence efficiency. 
...

When the magnetic field collapses, BEMF is generated. Recovering BEMF implies there is a current circulating in the coil. This current creates a magnetic field that opposes the change of the collapsing magnetic field.
When the collapsing field is due to the motion of a permanent magnet, it means that the field created by the current recovered from the BEMF opposes the motion of the permanent magnet.
There is absolutely nothing in Steorn experiment that would contradict theory and facts known from near two centuries.

Quote
Being married to two women...

Sorry Old Man, I'm not interested neither in personnal problems nor in psychology. I discuss science and experiments. Please keep apart irrationnal blah and beliefs.
I have built hundreds of setups in electronics. Even though some were very surprising, after analysing I have never found one against the laws of physics.
Neither pretty setups nor hard works are evidence of new laws of physics. We need proofs. We need experiments with accurate measurements. We don't need conventional motors working from a powerful charged battery as Steorn do it!




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 12:38:01 PM
Quote
There is absolutely nothing in Steorn experiment that would contradict theory and facts known from near two centuries.
Quite the contrary. Spinning of a rotor for free (the energy to saturate core being fully recoverable) contradicts theory and facts known for near two centuries and more.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 12:40:03 PM
When the collapsing field is due to the motion of a permanent magnet, it means that the field created by the current recovered from the BEMF opposes the motion of the permanent magnet.

This statement is not true. Reasons:

1) Current in coil never causes attraction of magnet.
2) When the field "collapses" the current doesn't reverse instantaneously as some seem to believe. The current moves on for a while until it reverses. This has to do with the simple induction law E=L*dI/dt where I=E/L*t. What it means for current to collapse is for instance if you reverse the polarity of the battery. Suddenly that last formula shows the slow becomes negative and thus current decreases towards zero. But if allowed it will cross this zero line and start storing magnetic energy again. Try this simulation to see it happen:

1) Charge the inductor
2) Flip the switch
3) Switch the batteries by dragging and dropping
4) Flip the switch again and look at the yellow current trace

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/ (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/)

Quote
$ 1 5.0E-6 66.51416330443618 41 5.0 50
S 336 176 336 96 0 0 false 0
w 176 96 320 96 1
w 352 96 480 96 1
w 480 96 480 368 0
l 336 176 336 368 0 3.0 -0.5241041666684361
w 176 368 336 368 0
w 336 368 480 368 0
v 176 96 176 368 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
v 112 368 112 96 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
o 4 128 0 35 5.0 0.8 0 -1

A lot of people have misconceptions about emf not induced by a magnet. The current never reverses direction instantaneously in a coil that would defeat the whole purpose of the momentum analogy in a coil. In mechanics a constant back force decreases the velocity of a big massive object over time until the velocity reverses, but while this is happening the rate of velocity change (aka acceleration) remained constant just like the rate of current change.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 12:47:05 PM
The idea Steorn has based its Orbo on to utilize the property of a toroidal coil with core to contain the induction within the coil and have the core be seen by external permanent magnets as just another permanent magnet is one of the best ideas I've seen in this field. Wonder who was the originator of that concept, especially to achieve OU? Obviously Steorn aren't, since almost everyone knows Bedini has worked on it, Bearden probably, now Thane Heins has been mentioned. Who's the first, though, does anyone know?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 12:52:21 PM
Quite the contrary. Spinning of a rotor for free (the energy to saturate core being fully recoverable) contradicts theory and facts known for near two centuries and more.

it is not fully recoverable, you have ohmic loses unless you make coil and everything superconductive..
and than you have spent more on input on doing that...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 28, 2009, 12:58:39 PM
ok, here is what I was thinking so you might comment on that...

observe total "on" pulse time  versus "off" pulse time in same period... does this "on" time increase as wheel spin up?
if so than extra input energy means higher wheel speed..

Good Morning,

Ratio of On to off same at all time until mechanical limits of reed relay exceeded.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Silvije on December 28, 2009, 01:01:00 PM
erased
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: aaron5120 on December 28, 2009, 01:56:36 PM
Hi, everybody,
Pardon for the intrusion, please allow me to draw your attention of the following news:
The Steorn electromagnetic motor replication by Jean-Louis Naudin, Dec. 26, 2009. JLN Labs - http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm
The report is quite professional.
aaron5120
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 02:22:19 PM
Hi All,

Please see the following video for my new rotor. I am currently uploading my latest Steorn replication motor's first test run and the results are utterly amazing!!! With just two of my own wound toroid coils I can get the rotor to over 2000 RPM with just 100ma at 12V of input power!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty17tGOWvi4

The rotor is big and heavy and the bearings are not that flash either!

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: del_toro_es on December 28, 2009, 02:26:36 PM
 :)If, as J L Naudin claims: “There is no direct interaction of the magnetic field of the torus with the magnetic field of the rotor magnets.”,  the ease way to increase the motor power is use a more strong magnets or several magnets at the same position  in the rotor. In the steorn device they use 2 magnets per position.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 03:11:53 PM
Hi All,

Please see the following video for my new rotor. I am currently uploading my latest Steorn replication motor's first test run and the results are utterly amazing!!! With just two of my own wound toroid coils I can get the rotor to over 2000 RPM with just 100ma at 12V of input power!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty17tGOWvi4

The rotor is big and heavy and the bearings are not that flash either!

Regards,

Ossie

Hi All,

Here is the first test run of my latest Steorn replication motor in the link below. The motor can get to speeds of over 2000 RPM and more for a constant input power of only 100ma at 12V. The only speed limitation appears to be the reed switch with this current test setup.

The rotor weighs 450 grams. I am only using two toroid coils that I have wound myself at the moment but will increase this to four very soon.

The tuning of the timing and pulse width is the most difficult and important thing to get the motor to run at speed but it is essential. The reed switch allows you to do this quickly by feel. Electronic sensors can switch faster but will need to be elaborate to adjust accurate timing and pulse width but it is what is needed to take advantage of the full potential of this motor.

There is definately a sweet spot where the motor just takes off with no increase in the input power. The sweet spot changes depending on the RPMs so from 0-2000 RPM the sweet spot moves so an active timing system maybe necessary.

No heat can be felt on the coils even after running for over ten minutes.

This motor is nothing like anything I have worked with before. It is far more like a combustion engine then an electric motor! There appears to be no link between the input power and the output performance in terms of rotor acceleration (torque). Once you hit the spot, it just takes off!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU-MRSk-brQ


I do not see any limitation to being able to engineer this motor to use even less input power whilst increasing the output performance of the rotor. You just got to build it to understand...

Also, please see below the circuit I used for the test setup I used in the above video.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 28, 2009, 03:17:11 PM
it is not fully recoverable, you have ohmic loses unless you make coil and everything superconductive..
and than you have spent more on input on doing that...

It would be great to be just ohmic loses but there is more. Effectively, part of the electric energy is transferred from the core magnetic dipoles (core magnetic domains, if you want) to the outside magnet(s). The fact that a current in the toroidal coil shifts the magnetic potential energy of the core in respect to the external magnet can be clearly seen from TK’s experiments (links above, in my previous post). From there, it is evident that a change in potential energy is ultimately transformed into kinetic energy of the rotor.

@ all,

For those who wonder how I’ve got to the above and what’s exactly in my mind (well, assuming it’s more than nothing :D), my step-by-step reasoning is:
1. external magnet approaches the un-energized core;
2. magnetic domains in the core seek the minimum magnetic potential energy state (effectively they align with the external field);
3. electric current is applied to the toroidal coil; magnetic field inside the toroid is reorienting the magnetic domains in the core. (This is, in physics’ terms, the potential energy state of the core in respect to the outside magnet is being shifted to a higher value; potential energy is considered negative, by convention.)
4. Reorienting the magnetic dipoles inside the core is an energy demanding process because dipoles are “glued in place” by the already existing magnetic field imposed by the external magnet. As long as the external magnetic field does not change in time, all energy is theoretically recoverable as back EMF; unfortunately the magnetic field is time dependant because the external magnet is moving, hence less energy is recoverable.

My kind suggestion to all before criticizing me is try understanding the above. Mechanical thinking may well do it: make an imaginary core composed of several “elementary magnetic dipoles” (several small bar magnets, to be clearer). It should be obvious to anyone that a higher magnetic field inside the toroid (hence a higher electric current in the coil, hence a higher input energy) is needed in order to re-orient the bar magnets in the core when external magnetic field is present as compared to the case when there is no outside magnet. A mathematical difference of that kind of energies (a difference between two potential energy states) is what makes the rotor moving.

Bad news is that, according to the above, I have to disagree that the kinetic energy of the rotor comes from nowhere and although I may be wrong in my reasoning, as the possible mechanism of the Orbo motor is given in the above, please post alternative explanations instead of just a rebuttal based on no arguments.

Last but not least, I’m not saying Steorn is not onto something real. Hopefully it is!
I’m just saying that so far we were given one demo, which expectantly is only one piece of a larger puzzle but so far the part we have is not new neither particularly remarkable. I’ll take it as a mere lesson Sean want us to take and I’ll wait either for further findings from experimenters to open new paths ahead or for the next Orbo demo, whichever comes first.

Best regards,
Happy New Year!
Tinu
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 28, 2009, 03:22:59 PM
This statement is not true. Reasons:

1) Current in coil never causes attraction of magnet.


Current in coil CAUSES attraction of magnet.
Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo&feature=related

Please stick on facts.

Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 28, 2009, 04:01:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yurZxrKkeo&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0YZyI75bM

"As you can see, the moving magnets do generate EMF in the coil; when the coil is energised with a DC current, the magnitude of the EMF generated by the magnets decreases, as shown on the oscilloscope.

What is yet to be determined is whether the EMF is actually decreasing as a result of "shielding", or being smoothed out by the battery, acting much like a capacitor to smooth ripple."

Edited:
You were rotating the magnet around the face of the toroid. Can you try moving the magnet across the face of the toroid? JLN's scope shot of the unpowered coil test showed no emf from the moving magnets.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 28, 2009, 04:16:57 PM
This is something like a permanent magnet OU motor whereby, as a separate system, there are coils having perfect energy balance.

Exactly.  I was going for it being a permanent magnet motor utilizing magnetic shielding.  The magnetic shielding is electromagnetic in nature and does not directly drive the rotor.

Magnets and gravity are (were?) considered conservative fields of force.  If it is possible to shield a magnet, then you can build a permanent magnet motor, like eOrbo.  If we can shield mass (gravity) we can do the same with a gravity motor (only we don't know how to shield mass, right?).  So sadly I don't see this principle being able to be used to make a gravity motor, as many hoped might be possible.  But what does that matter?  Permanent magnets are sooo much more powerful than gravity.

I'm curious how placing another static permanent magnet on the back side of the toroids ultimately increases the rotor torque (and how was that measured)?  I can understand that additional static magnet increasing the initial attraction of the rotor magnet (added to the ferrite toroid attraction).  But doesn't that static magnet work to slow the rotor after it passes by?  Or does saturating the toroid shield the rotor from the permanent stator magnet as well?  Any clarification would be appreciated.

Edited to add:  Okay, I realized the orientation of callanan's stator magnets was critical and wouldn't cause the drag I was concerned with.  So the toroid shields the sticky point of that stator magnet, or is the added attraction of the toroid enough to get through it?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 28, 2009, 04:30:59 PM
@ Staffman,

Those are not my experiments; I’ve just quoted from the description on youtube.
(TK was once a reputable member of this site but I guess he left us).

Yes, I’ve seen JLN’s results.
On the un-powered coil test I can say not more than: totally insufficient RPM. Is that a joking experiment?! I mean turning the wheel by hand at maybe 1-200rpm or less and after doing that claiming there is no induced voltage?!
As Ben here remarked (and I do not know anyone else here but him alone being aware of this fact), a toroid is ultimately a one turn coil; hence it will always pick up external induction although the phenomenon largely pass unnoticed. Moreover, a toroidal coil does confine most of the magnetic field in itself but not all or the transformers could not work… I would detail if not clear enough but I have to leave now…

On short, regarding the TK’s experiments and the original question, the reasoning I’ve provided in my posts is based on his results but it should be generally applicable and not dependant on the position of the toroid in respect to magnets.
If the above does not respond to your question, please be more specific and I’ll respond later or tomorrow.

Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 04:53:43 PM

I would strongly recommend researchers read my post in the other thread,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8528.msg217992#msg217992

I am now convinced this excess energy effect is not stable (yet) like we would all want it to be. As you can see in my post in the other thread, this instability issue is seen all over the place.

So everyone here is advised to consider this during their measurements, otherwise it could be almost impossible to detect if you're expecting a machine that will run continuosly like an Energizer battery. IMO a lot of people here and throughout history have seen this excess energy, but it quickly goes away (still unknown why) with usage, and recovers from non-usage.  Surely there's a way to get around this, to quickly "reset" the effect.

Anyhow, I would encourage everyone to monitor the temperatures of the toroid core & magnets, as this is one indication of the effect, or at least it occurred in my replication version of the eOrbo.

So yes, last night I confirmed without a doubt that the core temperature did drop rapidly *below ambient*, that it was *not* due to air circulation. And the spinning magnets do not effect the IR gun. Also I used a contact temperature probe, which confirmed the cooling effect. Last night I completed the various control experiments. IMO it's confirmed.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 05:28:33 PM
So, what we have here is a Walter Torbay motor of a cat chasing its tail but the consecutive gaps the rotor chases don't come from within the construction but are created separately and independently, using pulsed powered toroids. That's vey clever, indeed.

One thing that remains is to really prove conclusively rotor couples only magnetically to the cores and doesn't influence one bit the electrical characteristics of the coils. To prove that scope traces at much higher sensitivity have to be presented than those shown by Sean on the 19th. Unltimately, one has to have this well-crafted contraption and study it with high-end equiment as the one Sean uses, to reach conclusive proof.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: LarryC on December 28, 2009, 06:39:31 PM
The following is from Peswiki about the JLN replication:

Feedback from Steorn
On December 28, 2009 1:39 AM Mountain, Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn wrote:

Thanks for that - however I must urge some caution here, what Jean-Louis will find is that all of his electrical input is being output as heat and that the work done by the rotor is free. However this does not mean that simply putting in a generator will enable him to close the loop.

The reason is that the design of the 'active' coils is very important so that the input uses minimum current to cause the effect in question - the production of heat is a current^2 relationship. Unless this fact is considered in the design of the input, then while the system may be more than 100% efficient, the work done by the rotor will be less than the energy input into the system, and so a closed loop system will not be possible.

Our next sequence of experiments will address these issues.

We are quite happy to discuss this in more detail with Jean if he has further interest in replication (two of our engineers are French, so they should be able to communicate well). 

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 07:10:20 PM
I agree with Sean. If you are not recycling the inductive energy and using too much ohmic energy you will end up chasing a goose when you close the loop. Unless you can also recycle the heat in a meaningful way which will just bloat the system. The best method to consider is the one discussed early on in this thread, make sure the current doesn't come near the ohmic current limit and recycle the inductive energy.

But it's good to see that we are on the right path according to Steorn.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 07:23:21 PM
One thing that remains is to really prove conclusively rotor couples only magnetically to the cores and doesn't influence one bit the electrical characteristics of the coils. To prove that scope traces at much higher sensitivity have to be presented than those shown by Sean on the 19th. Unltimately, one has to have this well-crafted contraption and study it with high-end equiment as the one Sean uses, to reach conclusive proof.

I think the emf that has been seen by some people when rotating the rotor by hand is caused by the imperfection of the windings. A perfect toroidal coil is a coil that has uniform amounts of windings all the way around and where the windings are as tight together as possible. Any imperfections give rise to local emfs being produced which can be measured.

I also proposed an experiment to show whether that same measured emf has the same amplitude when current is flowing through the system, see:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217852#msg217852

Basically this will give you a clean result without any interference of the voltage by the battery. As any change in the energized coil will be picked up by the coil hooked to the scope equally.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 08:35:30 PM
Here is the first test run of my latest Steorn replication motor in the link below. The motor can get to speeds of over 2000 RPM and more for a constant input power of only 100ma at 12V. The only speed limitation appears to be the reed switch with this current test setup.

What in your opinion did you do different, to allow that good of a run on such low current?  With my experiments, I am finding that if I use weaker magnets (ceramic) I can get a good run for alot less current, but the torque also suffers.  When I use the Neo's, mine is just current thirsty... I mean, I think I heard mine burp when I turned it off, lol....
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 08:38:16 PM
What in your opinion did you do different, to allow that good of a run on such low current?  With my experiments, I am finding that if I use weaker magnets (ceramic) I can get a good run for alot less current, but the torque also suffers.  When I use the Neo's, mine is just current thirsty... I mean, I think I heard mine burp when I turned it off, lol....

Guys post as much parameters as you can:

Magnet types
Inductance of coils
permeability of core
sizes

This way others can compare notes and perhaps improve their motors.

Also try the following. My sims showed that the attraction forces can be as much as 13 times higher if the magnets pole orientation is tangential to the rotor instead of radially.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 08:39:58 PM
I think the emf that has been seen by some people when rotating the rotor by hand is caused by the imperfection of the windings. A perfect toroidal coil is a coil that has uniform amounts of windings all the way around and where the windings are as tight together as possible. Any imperfections give rise to local emfs being produced which can be measured.

I also proposed an experiment to show whether that same measured emf has the same amplitude when current is flowing through the system, see:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217852#msg217852

Basically this will give you a clean result without any interference of the voltage by the battery. As any change in the energized coil will be picked up by the coil hooked to the scope equally.
Very good point.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 08:54:03 PM
Just dropping a bit of data from my bench work. I have a running replication, but right now current draw it to big so nothing great to report, I have a long way to go. But I did wind my toroids a bit different to try an idea.  I only had small toroids available, a little less than 3/4" I think diameter.  I first wound 150 turns of 30 gauge, then I layed 75 turns of 20 gauge over that.  I would have went with alot more turns but that little hole in the middle gets tight fast.  The idea was to see how using it as a transformer would effect the rotor speed.  It does work well to draw the energy back off the second winding. I do not have a scope, but I could not see a difference at all so far with current draw, or rotor speed when I pulled the energy back from the second winding as oppose to leaving it disconnected. Although I am not alternating pulses either. Still terrible efficiency in my setup, but I am hoping to collect a couple more components today, and try to pulse it with very short, alternating square wave to improve the transformer ability.  I am hoping that since it does not seem to care what polarity of current flows, maybe alternating square will work just as well, and make it double as an efficient transformer also.  If we are able to somehow collect MOST of the energy back that we used to run it, I do not think the amount of current will be as much of a problem, as the heating up should cut down quite a bit. Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 28, 2009, 09:01:34 PM
@broli,

To be honest I didn't get how to perform your test.

First, bifillar in my book means a coil with two ends, not four but the wire is first doubled and then wound around the core the way a single wire would be wound. As far as I can see you have in mind a different arrangement. Probably two separate wires wound on the core, first one then the other so that there would be four ends when done.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 09:08:06 PM
@broli,

To be honest I didn't get how to perform your test.

First, bifillar in my book means a coil with two ends, not four but the wire is first doubled and then wound around the core the way a single wire would be wound. As far as I can see you have in mind a different arrangement. Probably two separate wires wound on the core, first one then the other so that there would be four ends when done.

You are correct, I didn't meant the serial connected bifiliar coil but you wind it as one. Basically I'm saying make a 1:1 transformer. Since most people twist the wires together first to wind a bifillar coil, that process would be advantageous to use as well as you would then be sure you have the exact same number of windings. An emf reading in the secondary winding hooked to the scope, if any, can then be said to be equally as big as the one present in the energized primary coil which is only hooked to the battery.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 28, 2009, 09:42:41 PM
Jnaudin has all the tools he need to very accurately measure mechanically energy without converting it to electricity. By using mechanical formulas. First he needs to figure out the moment of inertia of his rotor. This can be easily found by dropping a weight from his rotor and using photo gates to measure acceleration. Then he measures and stores the value of the changing rpm before it maxes out and stores this data. Afterwards he can use a simple formula to find the instantaneous energy and power by taking the numerical derivation of the angular speed.

I would be glad to do all this if I was allowed in his lab  ;D .
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 28, 2009, 09:56:52 PM
What in your opinion did you do different, to allow that good of a run on such low current?  With my experiments, I am finding that if I use weaker magnets (ceramic) I can get a good run for alot less current, but the torque also suffers.  When I use the Neo's, mine is just current thirsty... I mean, I think I heard mine burp when I turned it off, lol....

You must increase the current until you see strange elvish writing in fire on the side of the coil, saying 'overunity' ...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
What in your opinion did you do different, to allow that good of a run on such low current?  With my experiments, I am finding that if I use weaker magnets (ceramic) I can get a good run for alot less current, but the torque also suffers.  When I use the Neo's, mine is just current thirsty... I mean, I think I heard mine burp when I turned it off, lol....

Hi CP,

The theory behind the operation is valid and so by using stronger magnets, smaller air gap and designing a toroid coil that saturates with as little current/power as possible you can increase the output power in torque significantly whilst reducing the losses such as heat in the coil and switching circuit. We have control of all of this so it is simply a matter of understanding it and using this understanding when building this motor. The only thing that is more difficult to control is the permiability of the core since most of us will rely of cores bought from a shop. But standard ferrite cores used for chokes appear to work fine.

To build an efficient motor of this type you must not use prewound toroid chokes that are of few turns/windings. One layer of thick windings will only result in a higher current input and great heat losses for less output torque. So this means you must wind your own toroid coils of thin wire but with as much turns as you can possibly fit in.

Please see the picture below of my coils with an identical unwound core next to it. I have wound as much turns of thinner wire into the core as possible. This can only result in the need for less input current to saturate the core. This is what I believe Steorn was trying to say in their statement about JLN's work. Less current, less heat loss in the coils and you are on the way to OU. The only way to do this is by winding more turns on the core.

Once you have done this then you are on your way. Then switching becomes of utmost importance for getting the input power down for the most rotor power output. The importance of switching lies both in the timing and pulse width and of course a low resistance/impedance switching circuit.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 28, 2009, 10:32:27 PM
When the magnetic field collapses, BEMF is generated. Recovering BEMF implies there is a current circulating in the coil. This current creates a magnetic field that opposes the change of the collapsing magnetic field.
When the collapsing field is due to the motion of a permanent magnet, it means that the field created by the current recovered from the BEMF opposes the motion of the permanent magnet.
There is absolutely nothing in Steorn experiment that would contradict theory and facts known from near two centuries.

Sorry Old Man, I'm not interested neither in personnal problems nor in psychology. I discuss science and experiments. Please keep apart irrationnal blah and beliefs.
I have built hundreds of setups in electronics. Even though some were very surprising, after analysing I have never found one against the laws of physics.
Neither pretty setups nor hard works are evidence of new laws of physics. We need proofs. We need experiments with accurate measurements. We don't need conventional motors working from a powerful charged battery as Steorn do it!

Hi EX 

A happy and prosperous new year to you too!!!

Respectfully
Ben



Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 10:43:20 PM
People should know that Steorn eOrbo has two magnets right next to each other per side, not one magnet.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 28, 2009, 10:56:22 PM
People should know that Steorn eOrbo has two magnets right next to each other per side, not one magnet.

Yes, this way with a backing plate you can increase the attraction forces onto the ferrite core.
So you have N and S facing coming from the 2 magnets attracting the ferrite core.

@Ossie, well done,
try to switch your coils on for below tau=L/R time interval to save input power
and being able to recover at least a third part of it again.
The mechanical attraction forces are then for free.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 28, 2009, 11:14:58 PM
@ Ossie,
Thanks for the info, it is quite helpful.  Maybe I missed it somewhere, but have you stated the size of wire and number of turns (approximately) you have in your toroids?  If I had to guess, it kind of looks like your using 24 or 26 gauge wire in the picture, but I really cant tell for sure.  I did however use 20 gauge on my, which of course allows much less turns before it is filled.  It does explain my excessive current draw, I may have been looking at this wrong then. I was going for thicker wire, so a bit more current could saturate that core better.  Looks like I've just gone to thick, because I think I just reinvented a heater for my lab!!!  Some of it could be because I am also using a pretty heavy duty car battery, and it's pouring in those amps.  I'll try adding some resistance, then I will get to winding another couple toroids I guess...  :-\
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 11:18:47 PM
People should know that Steorn eOrbo has two magnets right next to each other per side, not one magnet.

From what I have learnt from the test models I have made is that the motor will work with many different orientations of both the coils and magnets and even rotor. This is because the driving force of the rotor is due to the magnets attraction to the coil's core material and that's all. In regard to one magnet or two per toroid coil, I have found that when using one magnet with the coil's round face facing the magnet's round face, the magnet is attracted to only the side of the coil and not the centre of the coil.

To explain further, please see the following pictures. At these points the rotor cogs when not powered and left free. Because there is a hole in the core of the toroid coils there is nothing to attract the magnet in the middle of the coil. This does not effect the operation of the motor too much but from an engineering perpective it creates two attraction power points where the switching point will only trigger at one so one of the attraction power points is wasted in this design unless a more elaborate switching circuit is used that can switch on both of these points.

To get around this, you can simply use two smaller magnets to attract to a single point on the toroid at the top and the bottom of the coil's core. This is what Steorn appears to have done. The alternative is to orient the toroid coil such that it's face faces down so it is lying flat. This will cause only one attraction point when using one magnet but because the core is round, the attraction force to the magnet will be reduced and so the power output will be less. Steorn also showed this coil orientation but with a dual magnet rotor in it's last interection video.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 11:37:06 PM
It would be interesting to see the COP figures for 1 magnet and 2 magnet designs. Who knows, maybe Steorn discovered that only the 2 magnet design is cop>1.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 11:42:20 PM
Yes, this way with a backing plate you can increase the attraction forces onto the ferrite core.
So you have N and S facing coming from the 2 magnets attracting the ferrite core.

Yes, I agree. Two magnets top and bottom, one N and the other S, will only result in one very strong attraction point. This should increase the power output sigificantly but will mean that you will need another rotor on the shaft for a generator with standard single magnets. This is exactly what Steorn has done so it appears that we now have all of their demonstration motor engineering principles understood.

The design is fairly simple now that all of this is understood. But I must say that I am surpsrised that there are only a few replications so far. With all the efforts and replications of some complex and crazy pulse motor designs done in the past, myself included, there is no reason I can see why people aren't bothering to replicate this motor apart from aparent disbelief. The irony is, "disbelief" is precisely the word to describe it when you get it to work...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 28, 2009, 11:43:08 PM
It would be interesting to see the COP figures for 1 magnet and 2 magnet designs. Who knows, maybe Steorn discovered that only the 2 magnet design is cop>1.

Well, with 2 magnets and an iron backing plate inside the rotor you just use then the 2 poles of the magnets to attract the ferrite toroidal core, instead of just using only one pole.
So the attraction forces are just doubled .

In the design Ossi and JL Naudin are showing,
the backside of the magnets, that are glued to the wheel
don´t attract the ferrite, so these forces are lost.

With an iron backing plate and 2 magnets in N-S configuration
as Steorn did it, you just can double the forces
and use the permanent magnets more useful (efficient).

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 28, 2009, 11:57:53 PM
Well, with 2 magnets and an iron backing plate inside the rotor you just use then the 2 poles of the magnets to attract the ferrite toroidal core, instead of just using only one pole.
So the attraction forces are just doubled .

In the design Ossi and JL Naudin are showing,
the backside of the magnets, that are glued to the wheel
don´t attract the ferrite, so these forces are lost.

With an iron backing plate and 2 magnets in N-S configuration
as Steorn did it, you just can double the forces
and use the permanent magnets more useful (efficient).

Regards, Stefan.

Yes I agree. But with just one magnet as I am currently using, the power efficiency is unlike anything I have ever seen and I have made a quite a few motors in my time. So it is quite mindblowing for me to think that this efficiency can yet still go higher with better design. As it is, with only two coils my current motor gets into a runaway mode and the only thing stopping it is the inability of the reed switch to switch any faster. I do have concerns in regard to the dangers of runaway when I implement proper electronic fast switching.

Even with the reed switch, when it hits a rapid accelleration point whilst tuning it gets pretty scary and my next move is to get some good strong tape and tape down those magnets. The disbelief comes when you see it do this and also see that there is no more increase in the input power being drawn...

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gyulasun on December 29, 2009, 12:37:48 AM
Hi Ossie,

Would you mind checking the current draw when you try to decelerate a little bit the rotor by your hand? (using a piece of wood actually, not directly your fingers... :))   I am curious and yes I want to build also but can do it in a few weeks time in January.
I have not seen any comment on current consumption when the rotor is actually loaded but I think it would be a useful test.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 29, 2009, 01:03:57 AM
Hi All,

As the mechanics are bi-directional with timing the only issue as to rotational direction, the BEMF resulting when the coil/s are turned off ADDS to the rotation and hence efficiency.  Don't need to harvest it, it is already used if diode across the coil!!!!!!!  It is a moot issue.  Being married to two women (one after the other ha)  for 42 years and 4 kids has made me a verry mellow fellow.  Egos here/a persons competance/ slip ups, all part of life, don't mean "nuttin".  Ideas, theories, results, and HAVING FUN AND SAYING WOW WOW when you see something work and then trying to figure out why when the workings turn your "theoretical" world upsides down is where it is at!!!!!
ALL, keep up the good work!!  And whomever the pest is that keeps locking the site down, simply quit it.......

Respectfully
Ben

Would you please post a simple drawing of what you mean by a diode across the coil?

Do you mean a diode right before the coil that blocks the flyback from going back to the positive terminal?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 01:44:04 AM
@Reincarnate,

Can you point to a link where Thane Heins'motor is described in more detail?

One of the longest threads ever created here was by Thane. Here is more from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins

If you understand how Thanes device works and have a close look at the Orbo and you see EXACTLY the same thing except a pulse motor and toroids instead of a coaxial coil.

Why not just replicate thane's device - he gives all the info. you need and it works as as stated.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 01:53:48 AM
All,

I have tried a yellow/white Iron Powder core. The current needed to saturate
the core was so high that my hot glue melted. What kind of core material
is the best to use?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 01:58:13 AM
Thanks @Reincarnate,
Unfortunately, the video wasn't of much help. What was it supposed to demonstrate didn't come across at all.


As for this:

Quote
If you understand how Thanes device works and have a close look at the Orbo and you see EXACTLY the same thing except a pulse motor and toroids instead of a coaxial coil.

If that's the case then Thane Heins' is quite different from Orbo because the pulse motor as well as the toroids are the most substantial part of Orbo. If I find our what Thane Heins' device really is I may probably revise the above conclusion but thevideo definitely didn't help one bit in understanding its principle of action.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 29, 2009, 02:08:40 AM
Would you please post a simple drawing of what you mean by a diode across the coil?

Do you mean a diode right before the coil that blocks the flyback from going back to the positive terminal?

Hi INT,

Schematic below.  Diode across coil L1.  When transistor turns on, Collector goes low and that junction goes to ground.  When transistor turns off, inductive kickback in NORMAL inductor will drive the collector/inductor junction higher than the +12VDC, turn on Diode and induced back EMF will go back into coil.  Used all the time to protect transistor.  This is the short explanation.OKDOKIE......

Ben


Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 02:13:00 AM
Hi All,

I have updated my current Steorn test motor platform with a new switching circuit as attached below. I am still using the same two toroidal coils as in the previous video. The only thing I have changed is the switching circuit which I have designed to send the coil's collapsing emf straight back to the battery. I am still using a small reed switch for triggering because the optimal tuned trigger point is so very delicate and changes as the RPMs go up that I need to find it and move it manually by hand.

I can now get the rotor to approximately 2000 RPM using only 10ma at 12V. Yes I said "ten milliamps"! I do NOT need to use more current to start it at low RPMs! By carefull and precise hand movement of the reed switch I can get it up to 2000 RPM using no more than 10ma at 12V at any time!!!

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 29, 2009, 02:18:33 AM
Hi All,

I have updated my current Steorn test motor platform with a new switching circuit as attached below. I am still using the same two toroidal coils as in the previous video. The only thing I have changed is the switching circuit which I have designed to send the coil's collapsing emf straight back to the battery. I am still using a small reed switch for triggering because the optimal tuned trigger point is so very delicate and changes as the RPMs go up that I need to find it and move it manually by hand.

I can now get the rotor to approximately 2000 RPM using only 10ma at 12V. Yes I said "ten milliamps"! I do NOT need to use more current to start it at low RPMs! By carefull and precise hand movement of the reed switch I can get it up to 2000 RPM using no more than 10ma at 12V at any time!!!

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie,

That circuit is so good, it's bad.....MOST excellent.  Get you a good Hall effect in there and stand back!!!!!

Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 02:22:56 AM
All,

I have tried a yellow/white Iron Powder core. The current needed to saturate
the core was so high that my hot glue melted. What kind of core material
is the best to use?

Groundloop.

lol, I know what you mean.  I'm in the same boat.  I used simple ferite toroid I got in a multipack at radioshack.  I ended up with the same results as you.  I'm winding up a steel bushing now to see if the much lower permeability of steel will help or hinder this thing.  I'm beginning to wonder if Steorn made their own cores... Maybe magnetite or something. 1200 rpms out of D cell still seems out of reach with what we know so far, so something is still a mystery.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 02:26:54 AM
@callanan,

My I humbly ask what core material you use in your toroids?

Edit: Are you sure that the right most diode in your drawing is the right way?

Alex.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 02:32:44 AM
Hi Ossie,

That circuit is so good, it's bad.....MOST excellent.  Get you a good Hall effect in there and stand back!!!!!

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks. I intend on getting a hall effect switch to compare to the reed switch. The reason the reed switch is working so well is because I can angle it and control the distance easily which in turn controls the timing but more importantly, the pulse width. I should be able to do this with a hall effect switch also so it will be interesting to see if it gives me just as much control to compare it.

Until people build their own motor, they won't realise just how precise the positioning and pulse width has to be for the trigger. The higher the RPMs the more delicate this becomes and most people who build this motor will simply roughly just place the switch in a position to make it run with no regard for the pulse width if they can get it to run at all. It is NOT an easy motor to get to run and the switching point is very fine and delicate and related to RPM. So it WILL use more power input then it has too if this is not considered and done. But precise active switching timing and pulse width adjustment of this motor gives a 100 times increase in efficiency from what I am seeing!

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 02:36:02 AM
Way to go Ossie!  Can you manage to get that baby running on 1.2 volts by any chance?  Not that it is important with as well as yours is performing.  Just curious if your setup can duplicate Steorns low voltage...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 02:37:52 AM
Thanks @Reincarnate,
Unfortunately, the video wasn't of much help. What was it supposed to demonstrate didn't come across at all.


As for this:

If that's the case then Thane Heins' is quite different from Orbo because the pulse motor as well as the toroids are the most substantial part of Orbo. If I find our what Thane Heins' device really is I may probably revise the above conclusion but thevideo definitely didn't help one bit in understanding its principle of action.

Omnibus, I suggest you dig a little deeper and do your own research... There are 40 videos on his youtube page and you didn't watch them in that short amount of time.

Next he used the username crankypants here at overunity and if you do a search for that username, you only get two hits even though he made hundreds of posts. I can't explain that but maybe you can PM him and he can.

He works with others that use this web site such as gotoluc and maybe he can illuminate you.

The fact is, you are looking at the same base process once you see and understand what they have in common.

Good luck
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 02:41:49 AM
lol, I know what you mean.  I'm in the same boat.  I used simple ferite toroid I got in a multipack at radioshack.  I ended up with the same results as you.  I'm winding up a steel bushing now to see if the much lower permeability of steel will help or hinder this thing.  I'm beginning to wonder if Steorn made their own cores... Maybe magnetite or something. 1200 rpms out of D cell still seems out of reach with what we know so far, so something is still a mystery.

Hi CP,

I have tried winding a coil on a steel washer but it was no good. But in regard to what you and GL are trying with your attempts on ferrite cores, it is likely that you have had a motor that will work but did not realise it. The best test I have found is to simply energise the coil next to a rotor magnet in the still rotor and see if it moves. If not, rock the rotor slighly and pulse the coil and see if you can increase the movement like swinging on a swing. Ben mentioned this in his early posts and I agree that it is the best method I have tried to know if you coil can dirve the motor.

If your coil does this then it WILL drive the rotor. All you need to do is find the sweet spot with the reed switch or hall sensor and sometime you need to give it a good twist with your hand if your coils are not that good.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 02:46:30 AM
@callanan,

Great job on your motor.

My motor runs. I'm using a Hall switch. But my Iron Powder core gets really warm
and the motor uses too much power. What kind of core material are you using?

Also, I think you got the right most diode in your drawing the wrong way.
As it is now the current is free to flow to ground when the top transistor opens up.

Edit: Attached is my switch drawing.

Alex.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 02:58:04 AM
@callanan,

Great job on your motor.

My motor runs. I'm using a Hall switch. But my Iron Powder core gets really warm
and the motor uses too much power. What kind of core material are you using?

Also, I think you got the right most diode in your drawing the wrong way.
As it is now the current is free to flow to ground when the top transistor opens up.

Alex.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the circuit diagram errata. I will update it shortly.

I am using the following cores from Jaycar Electronics here in Australia. www.jaycar.com.au. See picture below.

You need as many turns on you core as you can possibly fit of medium to pretty thin wire! This will reduce the current input and increase the core saturation for voltages around 12 volts.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 02:59:27 AM
@callanan,

Thank you. :-)

Rewinding new core now...........................

Alex.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 29, 2009, 03:27:21 AM
Ossi,
great new circuit.

Please could you try this circuit
with a big electrolyte cap of at least 10,000 uF or
more and let me know, how fast it will charge up ?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 29, 2009, 03:30:41 AM
P.S. Please Ossi,
please reverse also the polarity of the toroidal coils versus each other and see, when the voltage
will rise the fastest in the cap .
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: interestedinou on December 29, 2009, 03:41:36 AM
Hi INT,

Schematic below.  Diode across coil L1.  When transistor turns on, Collector goes low and that junction goes to ground.  When transistor turns off, inductive kickback in NORMAL inductor will drive the collector/inductor junction higher than the +12VDC, turn on Diode and induced back EMF will go back into coil.  Used all the time to protect transistor.  This is the short explanation.OKDOKIE......

Ben

Thanks! I appreciate the schematic!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 29, 2009, 03:44:14 AM
Anyone have any luck finding the toroid in JLN's schematic? He shows only 68 turns of appx AWG 25. I'm trying to hunt the core down. Right now I'm waiting for replies from sales reps.

Edit
OOPS: Make that 67 Turns.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 29, 2009, 04:12:43 AM
Get rid of the reed switch. If you want to dynamically control duty cycle use two hall sensors/reflective sensors. One at TDC and one a little further which you can control by hand. When the first switch triggers at TDC it will trigger the coils on and leave them on untill the second sensor triggers and turns them off.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 04:31:00 AM
I can now get the rotor to approximately 2000 RPM using only 10ma at 12V.

Hi Ossie,

How much of that 120mW power is wasted in joule heating from the coil?

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 05:12:01 AM
Thanks @Reincarnate,
Unfortunately, the video wasn't of much help. What was it supposed to demonstrate didn't come across at all.


As for this:

If that's the case then Thane Heins' is quite different from Orbo because the pulse motor as well as the toroids are the most substantial part of Orbo. If I find our what Thane Heins' device really is I may probably revise the above conclusion but thevideo definitely didn't help one bit in understanding its principle of action.

Omnibus,

I would also point out that Thane drives his motor with a triac which makes it a pulse motor. If he didn't, the motor could not accelerate since it would be inductively coupled to the mains.

The Only difference is a toroidal coil verses a coaxial coil. It's odd how people don't see what is in front of them an put it all together.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 05:17:46 AM
Hi All,

Please see this latest video I just uploaded. It highlights both the importance and difficulty in switching this motor for maximum output whilst keeping the input power as low as possible. Hopefully many who see this may realise that their previous Steorn motor they built which did not work may have actually run but was just not tuned correctly. I have gone through a few reed switches now and they are terribly unreliable and keep changing their properties in themselves over time. They are NO GOOD for this motor and electronic switching is a must but it also must be elaborate electronic switching and cater for timing advance and pulse width control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhKqqHxEmE

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 29, 2009, 05:18:54 AM
Get rid of the reed switch. If you want to dynamically control duty cycle use two hall sensors/reflective sensors. One at TDC and one a little further which you can control by hand. When the first switch triggers at TDC it will trigger the coils on and leave them on untill the second sensor triggers and turns them off.

Hi All,

To dream further on down the line, use a small dedicated micro like the Arduino for overall control of all variables as needed, it goes on and on....It just depends on how creative the programmer/builder is.........But that is for later.  Oh the webs we weave!

Ben K4ZEP
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Staffman on December 29, 2009, 05:33:06 AM
Hi All,

Please see this latest video I just uploaded. It highlights both the importance and difficulty in switching this motor for maximum output whilst keeping the input power as low as possible. Hopefully many who see this may realise that their previous Steorn motor they built which did not work may have actually run but was just not tuned correctly. I have gone through a few reed switches now and they are terribly unreliable and keep changing their properties in themselves over time. They are NO GOOD for this motor and electronic switching is a must but it also must be elaborate electronic switching and cater for timing advance and pulse width control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhKqqHxEmE

Regards,

Ossie

Just a quick comment... I fully expected the magnets to go flying off. Good work.

Do you have four magnets on that rotor? You could help with timing by drawing lines on your base board to show where the magnets are in relation to timing. I'm thinking that due to circuit lag (or in this case reed lag), placing lines to show where your magnets are would help visualize this. If this makes no sense, I've been up for awhile.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 29, 2009, 05:36:40 AM
Hi All,

Please see this latest video I just uploaded. It highlights both the importance and difficulty in switching this motor for maximum output whilst keeping the input power as low as possible. Hopefully many who see this may realise that their previous Steorn motor they built which did not work may have actually run but was just not tuned correctly. I have gone through a few reed switches now and they are terribly unreliable and keep changing their properties in themselves over time. They are NO GOOD for this motor and electronic switching is a must but it also must be elaborate electronic switching and cater for timing advance and pulse width control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhKqqHxEmE

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie,
 
It would be fun to see a low value current sensing resistor in one of the battery supply leads with a DVM or sensitive analog meter across it and see if the current flows negative at any time when you are messing with the reed switch/timing setup!!!!!  Again GREAT work!!! 

Right now teaching is almost as important as building!  Passing on information and ideas to help the understanding and open mind is most important!!!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 07:30:40 AM
Hi All,

Here is where I got my coil cores from. The description contains the dimensions.

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=LO1234&keywords=core&form=KEYWORD

I have about 20 metres of 0.5mm thick wire total wound on these cores for the coils in my Steorn replication test motor. I have wound the cores as quadfilar to make winding easier and then simply connected all the 4 wires in series to make a single winding. I have put as much wire length and turns of this thickness wire (0.5mm) that I could fit in the cores and still be able to mount them with cable ties.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 07:34:23 AM
Omnibus,

I would also point out that Thane drives his motor with a triac which makes it a pulse motor. If he didn't, the motor could not accelerate since it would be inductively coupled to the mains.

The Only difference is a toroidal coil verses a coaxial coil. It's odd how people don't see what is in front of them an put it all together.
This difference (toroidal versus coaxial coil) will be insubstantial if Thane Heins had shown that the input energy is used only to saturate the cores of the coils and no part of it is used to drive the rotor. There should be evidence that the rotor is only driven through the magnetic interactions between the cores and the permanent magnets of the rotor.  Is there any such proof in Thane Heins' demos? Conclusive proof of that is still pending with regard to Orbo as well. That's a crucial requirement to constitute these motors as OU.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 08:48:22 AM
This difference (toroidal versus coaxial coil) will be insubstantial if Thane Heins had shown that the input energy is used only to saturate the cores of the coils and no part of it is used to drive the rotor. There should be evidence that the rotor is only driven through the magnetic interactions between the cores and the permanent magnets of the rotor.  Is there any such proof in Thane Heins' demos? Conclusive proof of that is still pending with regard to Orbo as well. That's a crucial requirement to constitute these motors as OU.

If I understand your question / statement, Thane does use the power from the pickup coils and feeds that back into the motor and has the motor down to using <10 watts.

I sent him the information that would allow him to make that a self runner but don't know if he will try it. He tends to not listen and do his own thing, hence the username crankypants?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 09:02:30 AM
Quote
If I understand your question / statement, Thane does use the power from the pickup coils and feeds that back into the motor and has the motor down to using just a few watts.
If you mean by that that rotor turns at the expense of a few watts from the power supply then not only that's not an Orbo but its OU status is questionable. Rotor should not use any of the energy supplied by the power source.

Mind you that we already have Paul Sprain's machine and that isn't Orbo either in a sense that the power input in Sprain's machine is not recoverable. It is spent to overcome the sticky spot. It may still be an OU machine (not yet proven conclusively) but for different reasons than Orbo.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: wings on December 29, 2009, 09:14:13 AM
Hi All,

To dream further on down the line, use a small dedicated micro like the Arduino for overall control of all variables as needed, it goes on and on....It just depends on how creative the programmer/builder is.........But that is for later.  Oh the webs we weave!

Ben K4ZEP

Hi all

coincidence!

Yesterday I bought the Arduino manual thinking about how to solve the switch timing .

assuming that you need 5° accuracy timing with a 2500RPM you have 0.33 millisecond to run the software instructions it is enough??

A pratical solution is to use magnet pais like in the original video, in this case with N and S magnet you can reduce the interaction area improving the timing, increase the torque .... but reducing the effect and speed.

Instead to use a standard ferrite toroid ... wy not use a magnet toroid facing with opposit to the rotating magnet, like to Ossie experiment.

Ben , Ossie , Stefan all
Thanks for the information you have given me so far

Stefan please stop the music
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 09:14:43 AM
Hi All,

Here is where I got my coil cores from. The description contains the dimensions.

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=LO1234&keywords=core&form=KEYWORD

I have about 20 metres of 0.5mm thick wire total wound on these cores for the coils in my Steorn replication test motor. I have wound the cores as quadfilar to make winding easier and then simply connected all the 4 wires in series to make a single winding. I have put as much wire length and turns of this thickness wire (0.5mm) that I could fit in the cores and still be able to mount them with cable ties.

Regards,

Ossie

Hi All,

For those wanting more detail on how I make my toroidal coils. Please see the following videos which are in 3 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DytXteB9XLI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQAz7AjecQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBUJJgaV4CQ


Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 09:21:29 AM
If you mean by that that rotor turns at the expense of a few watts from the power supply then not only that's not an Orbo but its OU status is questionable. Rotor should not use any of the energy supplied by the power source.

That is quite a leap from what is known about both devices Omnibus.

To suggest that how one performs over the other is a departure from what I stated. "That they use the same basic process"

Next when one of them has not even been demonstrated or publically evaluated other than to show a prime mover and a scope shot from a company that failed to live into it's last claim is quite a leap of faith. Again has nothing to do with "same basic process"

Thane is using an off the shelf grinder motor and so the efficiency is quite low. His motor is MUCH LARGER so the current draw is not linear between the two. Thane is slow to refine as he is bogged down by outside influences such as NASA, DOE and CIA asking for replications.. the usual suspects.

Compare the apples to the apples you can see, not the oranges you imagine or have been told exist.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 09:33:46 AM
It's true more evidence is needed to sustain the Orbo claim which is that the rotor draws no energy from the power supply. As far as I understand Thane Heins' rotor does draw energy from the power supply and that makes it an entirely different invention. You're right about bogging down but even a greater obstacle is poverty. Overwhelmingly those with the bright ideas are poor and that prevents them from bringing their ideas to fruition. Sean as head of Steorn isn't that poor and he could accomplish the objective to prove conclusivelu the reality of an OU machine (I'm not even concerned about bringing it to the market). Unfortunately, Steorn is a business and business is opposite to science.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 09:33:49 AM
Hi All,

I always knew of Steorn over the past few years because of their publicity but I was and am still pretty green in terms of understanding their technology prior to December the 15th 2009. I have had some correspondance with JLN in the past day or two and he has made me aware of the following which is very interesting.

"US 2009/0009157 A1 : SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR MEASURING ENERGY IN MAGNETIC INTERACTIONS : An apparatus and method is provided for measuring magnetic force response time due to the magnetic viscosity of materials and for measuring total energy exchanged due to relative motion of magnetic materials. Voltage and current versus time through an electromagnet is measured and recorded....
Inventors: Sean David McCarthy, Alan Simpson, Martin Flood, Maxime Sorin"

and

http://sites.google.com/site/steornlab/home

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 09:40:57 AM
Hi All,

I always knew of Steorn over the past few years because of their publicity but I was and am still pretty green in terms of understanding their technology prior to December the 15th 2009. I have had some correspondance with JLN in the past day or two and he has made me aware of the following which is very interesting.

"US 2009/0009157 A1 : SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR MEASURING ENERGY IN MAGNETIC INTERACTIONS : An apparatus and method is provided for measuring magnetic force response time due to the magnetic viscosity of materials and for measuring total energy exchanged due to relative motion of magnetic materials. Voltage and current versus time through an electromagnet is measured and recorded....
Inventors: Sean David McCarthy, Alan Simpson, Martin Flood, Maxime Sorin"

and

http://sites.google.com/site/steornlab/home

Regards,

Ossie

"Voltage and current versus time through an electromagnet is measured and recorded.... "

Which is exactly what I have been saying about how the shorted coil acts an accelerator coil.

If I try to push you backward, we both go backward. If my back is against the wall, only one of us moves and that speed is "accelerated"

Now look at Thanes device. The shorted coil is a wall.

but it all falls on deaf ears...
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 09:49:12 AM
It's true more evidence is needed to sustain the Orbo claim which is that the rotor draws no energy from the power supply. As far as I understand Thane Heins' rotor does draw energy from the power supply and that makes it an entirely different invention. You're right about bogging down but even a greater obstacle is poverty. Overwhelmingly those with the bright ideas are poor and that prevents them from bringing their ideas to fruition. Sean as head of Steorn isn't that poor and he could accomplish the objective to prove conclusivelu the reality of an OU machine (I'm not even concerned about bringing it to the market). Unfortunately, Steorn is a business and business is opposite to science.

Apparently you have not heard of the business of global warming and the carbon tax or how science is funded and sometimes why? I wish I could live in your idealistic world of bliss.

My guess is Steorn was looking at fraud charges and was offered a nice deal to discredit or lock up Thane's device in court. Bet you a dollar a lawsuit is filed in the next year and you can bet Thane, who has no funding, will just go away even though he invented it.

That is all speculation but then this entire thread is speculation until people look at the components that are being ignored such as the shorted coil and magnets below the rotor and how they are being used as an accelerator.

Most all free energy devices use "acceleration" to convert mass into the atomic energy contained within mass and they do not violate thermodynamics.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 10:43:44 AM
It's true more evidence is needed to sustain the Orbo claim which is that the rotor draws no energy from the power supply. As far as I understand Thane Heins' rotor does draw energy from the power supply and that makes it an entirely different invention.

No it doesn't, it "allegedly" makes Thane's motor less efficient. The only differences are toroids verses coaxial coils, size and friction as I stated.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 10:56:02 AM
Efficiency of the motor is none of our problems when discussing OU devices. It shouldn't even be mentioned. The crucial question is are there experiments proving that Thane Heins' rotor doesn't draw energy from the power supply. If that can be proved unequivocally Steorn will eat crow, lawsuit or no lawsuit.

By the way, is Thane Heins available for a commentary on Steorn's demo?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 11:01:46 AM
Why are you so bent on staying completely off topic and trying to send everyone to check out Thane's work?  We are not talking about Thanes work here.  There is a huge thread for Thanes work already, please lets stick to Orbo here in this thread.  I too have been watching Thanes work since his first couple video's hit you tube.  It's great stuff, but not exactly the same.  Although you feel some aspects may be similar, you have stated this plenty of times already.  We've got it okay, please let us work on Orbo. Thanes work is great, but what he is doing is feeding excess energy back to help the electric motor turn the generator.  There is no electric motor in Orbo at all.  The toroids ARE the motor. They are different.  I feel everyone SHOULD see Thanes work.  I have great respect for it.  But I respectfully ask that you let us work on Orbo over here.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: teslaalset on December 29, 2009, 11:20:14 AM
Hi all

coincidence!

Yesterday I bought the Arduino manual thinking about how to solve the switch timing .

assuming that you need 5° accuracy timing with a 2500RPM you have 0.33 millisecond to run the software instructions it is enough??

A pratical solution is to use magnet pais like in the original video, in this case with N and S magnet you can reduce the interaction area improving the timing, increase the torque .... but reducing the effect and speed.

Instead to use a standard ferrite toroid ... wy not use a magnet toroid facing with opposit to the rotating magnet, like to Ossie experiment.

Ben , Ossie , Stefan all
Thanks for the information you have given me so far

Stefan please stop the music

Wings, I have my arduino already running.

Just a tip:
The default arduino boot-loader software uses a rather inefficient C-compiler.
That will not enable you in an easy way to get high output timing resolution.
I will use a programmer (Olimax) to be able to run the Admel processor using assembler language. By this you can easily obtain output resolution of 125 ns (most of the arduino's use 16 MHz clock freq),
As a reference: at 2400 rpm that will give you 360/200000 degrees resolution using one coil, one magnet

Another approach I am working out is to sample the induced voltage of the coils by the controller (the Atmel processors have an on-chip A/D converter). This will allow me to work without a seperate sensor

I'll take further discussions/questions on the Arduino controller method over PM to avoid cluttering this thread
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: wings on December 29, 2009, 11:25:29 AM
Hi All,

I always knew of Steorn over the past few years because of their publicity but I was and am still pretty green in terms of understanding their technology prior to December the 15th 2009. I have had some correspondance with JLN in the past day or two and he has made me aware of the following which is very interesting.

"US 2009/0009157 A1 : SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR MEASURING ENERGY IN MAGNETIC INTERACTIONS : An apparatus and method is provided for measuring magnetic force response time due to the magnetic viscosity of materials and for measuring total energy exchanged due to relative motion of magnetic materials. Voltage and current versus time through an electromagnet is measured and recorded....
Inventors: Sean David McCarthy, Alan Simpson, Martin Flood, Maxime Sorin"

and

http://sites.google.com/site/steornlab/home

Regards,

Ossie



here the link

http://www.google.com/patents?id=1dOyAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=true

and file
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 11:26:08 AM
I just got done winding my new toroid.  I went ahead and tried using a steel bushing I got from the local hardware store for the core.  I know the properties of steel are not always desirable for these motors, but I wanted to try the much less permeability aspect. It's actually no different than a washer with a bigger hole in the middle.  I used 1500 turns of #26 wire (took all night to wind).  I am reworking the whole rotor design, so I did not get a chance to test for a runner yet.  But I did do jean's test.  With my last ferrite toroids that drank current, using jeans test would BARELY drop 1 half inch neo when hit with 12 volts.  This thin steel bushing core, with 1500 turns, drops 6, 3/4" neo's stacked like it was nothing.  So I think I am in business.  Thanks for the details on all of your work, it's extremely appreciated.  I know steel is not supposed to work as well, but I'll give it a shot with 1 toroid anyway and see, who knows.  Much lower permeability may prove worth while.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Reincarnate on December 29, 2009, 12:25:36 PM
Efficiency of the motor is none of our problems when discussing OU devices. It shouldn't even be mentioned. The crucial question is are there experiments proving that Thane Heins' rotor doesn't draw energy from the power supply. If that can be proved unequivocally Steorn will eat crow, lawsuit or no lawsuit.

By the way, is Thane Heins available for a commentary on Steorn's demo?

I don't what Thane's status is nor do I speak for him. Neither Steorn or Thane have demonstrated overunity in terms of a self running device and Thane does not want to to touch that with a ten foot pole for commercial reasons from what he has stated.

BOTH Thane and Steorn show (or claim to show in the case of Steorn) a cancellation of Lentz law. They also both appear to doing that in the same way and that is the pink elephant in the room.

Monkey see monkey do, isn't going to understand it if the monkey can't see the pink elephant. The other aspects of the differences or performance in the two are what is irrelevant.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 12:31:24 PM
Anyway, let's stick to Steorn right now becauste, being better endowed at present, the likelihood of them proving OU definitively (not through a closed loop) is greater.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 29, 2009, 01:51:54 PM
This thin steel bushing core, with 1500 turns, drops 6, 3/4" neo's stacked like it was nothing.

Fantastic work, tnx for sharing. ;)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 29, 2009, 01:55:46 PM

In the Steorn replication from JL Naudin,
http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm
we see the values of voltage and current used to power the coils:
8V, 18A and a duty cycle > 25% (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/images/steorn4.jpg)
This leads to 36W/coil!
We now understand why Steorn is using a strong 10A/h battery instead of a capacitor...  It is a very unefficient motor.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 29, 2009, 01:56:20 PM
Hi all

coincidence!

Yesterday I bought the Arduino manual thinking about how to solve the switch timing .

assuming that you need 5° accuracy timing with a 2500RPM you have 0.33 millisecond to run the software instructions it is enough??

A pratical solution is to use magnet pais like in the original video, in this case with N and S magnet you can reduce the interaction area improving the timing, increase the torque .... but reducing the effect and speed.

Instead to use a standard ferrite toroid ... wy not use a magnet toroid facing with opposit to the rotating magnet, like to Ossie experiment.

Ben , Ossie , Stefan all
Thanks for the information you have given me so far

Stefan please stop the music

Yes, just dreaming, practically, will need much faster than Arudino as actual value pulse/pulses width (if individual coils controlled), needed to spin up is rather large but then actual value to maintain sync of fields (positive feedback of speed) when tracking pulses is very short, and very fast tracking at 2-10K rpm gets to be a bitch.......The application of micro will be mandatory as size and power increases and control of loop to keep power input down to minimum for speed and efficiency with little resistive heating .......know the above is rather cryptic but if you understand, don't have to elaborate, if not, just build the motors.   Information and data coming in so fast, hard to digest it all and sleep at the same time.........Cowabunga, what a fantastic year......

Every one has contributed over time and all the ideas add up.  Bedini, Adams, Flyn, Steorm, JLN, Ossie and all the other great experimenters on this list too numerous to mention and all the results of the Internet with the rapid distribution of information and on and on and on.  Whomever ever though that two magnetic fields in a active environment could mechanically be brought into resonance with resultant power output..... Wow.......Again, just dreaming, me bad.

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 29, 2009, 01:57:13 PM

" I made a lot more electricity with steel than I ever made with copper. "

~ Ed Leedskalnin

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 29, 2009, 01:59:41 PM
In the Steorn replication from JL Naudin,
http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm
we see the values of voltage and current used to power the coils:
8V, 18A and a duty cycle > 25% (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/images/steorn4.jpg)
This leads to 36W/coil!
We now understand why Steorn is using a strong 10A/h battery instead of a capacitor...  It is a very unefficient motor.

Hi exnihiloest,

I was just wondering, have you read all of the posts in this thread?

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 29, 2009, 02:57:48 PM
Quote
This thin steel bushing core, with 1500 turns, drops 6, 3/4" neo's stacked like it was nothing.

Interesting test! should have high permeability and low saturation. It may be better to have a core of rolled 1010 shim steel or fine 1010 steel wire to eliminate eddy currents.

I believe the core material will be an important factor in improving efficiency but maybe not something we are particularly looking at currently.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 29, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
In the Steorn replication from JL Naudin,
http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm
we see the values of voltage and current used to power the coils:
8V, 18A and a duty cycle > 25% (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/images/steorn4.jpg)
This leads to 36W/coil!
We now understand why Steorn is using a strong 10A/h battery instead of a capacitor...  It is a very unefficient motor.

And callanan gets 2000 RPM on quite heavy rotor with only 0.12W: http://www.youtube.com/user/m1a9r9s9#p/u/0/8VhKqqHxEmE
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 29, 2009, 03:45:43 PM
Hi exnihiloest,

I was just wondering, have you read all of the posts in this thread?

Regards,

Ossie

I am interested only in experiments and accurate measurements.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 03:56:12 PM
I am interested only in experiments and accurate measurements.

Not true. You're also interested in whether or not the motor is efficient which is absolutely irrelevant with regard to whether or not the motor is OU.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 29, 2009, 04:00:46 PM
I am interested only in experiments and accurate measurements.

It seems more like you're interested in debunking with little reason and thinking overunity is a joke. Take MH as an example to see where that road leads to. Poeple here are doing some very good work and if it wasn't for Steorn we wouldn't have learned this interesting phenomena.

Experimentation wise there's something interesting I'm wondering about besides the potential EMF when it's energised. That is how the inductance L of the coil is behaving while the magnet passes by. If the inductance increases as the magnet moves away from TDC then this would mean that the current will not rise linearly (considering ideal inductor with no resistance). Because I= E/L *t , if L increases in time the slope of I changes. Actually if L increases linearly this function is asymptotic, like an RL circuit, and reaches its own current limit which can be below the ohmic current limit. This is an intresting fact to clarify through experimentation. For this experimentation it's best to drop the voltage and increase the inductance and duty cycle. So the charge time of the inductor stretches out for easy analyzing without hitting the ohmic limit too fast.

If however inductance doesn't change at all it would be yet another property of the motor we learned about.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 29, 2009, 04:13:39 PM
Hi EX 

A happy and prosperous new year to you too!!!

Respectfully
Ben

Thanks Ben! All the best for you too in 2010. I guess my wish is unnecessary as Father Christmas huh... Steorn has already given you a FE machine and the gift of faith  ::)

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: eatenbyagrue on December 29, 2009, 04:20:58 PM
What I think I am getting so far is that if I want to heat my home in the winter, the Orbo is the device I need.  If I want to make energy to say, charge a battery or operate an appliance, well, not so much.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 29, 2009, 04:29:21 PM
Not true. You're also interested in whether or not the motor is efficient which is absolutely irrelevant with regard to whether or not the motor is OU.

False statement. Experiments and accurate measurements are the only way to know if a motor is OU or not OU, efficient or unefficient.
If you saw an efficiency >100%, you guess there is a hidden energy source, and then you can use the COP instead of the efficiency to evaluate the machine.
OU can be seen only in experiments and measurements and that is why I am interested in.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: eatenbyagrue on December 29, 2009, 04:32:38 PM
False statement. Experiments and accurate measurements are the only way to know if a motor is OU or not OU, efficient or unefficient.
If you saw an efficiency >100%, you guess there is a hidden energy source, and then you can use the COP instead of the efficiency to evaluate the machine.
OU can be seen only in experiments and measurements and that is why I am interested in.

I agree, if you have a device that you can show is over 100% efficient, then overunity is easy to prove there, so certainly efficiency is relevant to overunity.

Omnibus is talking about total energy, though, so I suppose if heat output + mechanical output > energy input, you have overunity.

How do you accurately measure the total heat from a device though?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 29, 2009, 04:33:04 PM
If you make enough turns of thin wire on the core and use precise timing it shouln't become a heater. ;)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 29, 2009, 04:33:43 PM
I'd like to see a clear list of tradeoffs.  Such as:

Higher permability core => higher amp turns to saturate
Thinner coil wire => more physical (amp) turns possible (good?)
Thinner coil wire => higher resistance (bad?)
Higher number of (amp) turns => lower current required to saturate
Higher number of (amp) turns => slower response time to saturate (bad? irrelevant?)

And one I have not seen focus on:

Higher number of (amp) turns => thicker toroid => greater "gap" required between coil core and rotor magnets => lower magnetic attraction Force => lower ROTOR TORQUE (bad!)

Remember that the rotor torque is the "free" energy in this design and should be MAXIMIZED as much as reasonable with regards to your fixed parameters in any setup.  RPM is not necessarily proportional to torque.  So a good timing circuit might give high RPM but lower torque.

It is torque that drives the generator to produce the "free" electricity to close the loop.  Anyone accurately measuring torque while adjusting other parameters?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: powercat on December 29, 2009, 04:39:06 PM
Vid and quote from Larskro
Min. power use 2,9 volts x 50 mAmps = 0,145 watt. Speed 600rpm
I will try to reach zero power or overunity ?? free energy.
The toroid coil have about 300 turns. I have back EMF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGPRoHgz8Rw

cat
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 29, 2009, 04:40:21 PM
@mondrasek,

I understand what you're saying and that's important but for the later stages. We're still at the point of proving that the coupling betwieen the rotor and the toroids is exclusively magnetic. That is, that the rotor doesn't use any of the input energy. That's a crucial point which needs utmost attention.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 29, 2009, 04:47:50 PM
Did some research on core materials:

Relative Permeability chart:
Mild Steel (0.2 C)  2,000
Iron (0.2 impurity)  5,000
Silicon Iron           7,000
Mumetal               100,000
Purified iron (0.05 impurity) 200,000
Supermalloy           1,000,000
MetGlas                1,000,000

It seems, stuff like Metglas should be ideal for this kind of motor. It should need just microamps to saturate, which means one can have bigger cores , bigger magnets (=more output power) and only a few milliamps of input current.

Check the BH curve of Metglas here, its awesome
http://www.metglas.com/products/page5_1_2_6.htm

Here is a useful graph from which one can directly calculate the number of turns needed to saturate a particular core for some value of current:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetization_curves.svg

So, say for steel core, you need 200 turns/inch to saturate it with a current of 0.1 Amp. If you are sending any more current than that, in this case, its not doing anything, just getting wasted as heat.

So the golden rule for input side is - highest permeability , correct number of turns (of as thick wire as possible) and optimal current.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 29, 2009, 05:06:02 PM
Wiki has also great info on "Magnetic susceptibility and permeability data for selected materials" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#Values_for_some_common_materials
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 29, 2009, 05:18:36 PM
Probably need the BH curve of the core material to determine what may work well.
Here is a nice pdf that explains some of the factors and how they could be used.

http://www.walkerscientific.com/Products/Product_Lines/Magnetic_Analysis/Hysteresisgraphs/Initial-4-Quadrant.pdf

I would recommend everyone read this if you don't already know this!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 29, 2009, 05:23:45 PM
I was thinking... could we use metal housing from an old hard drive to make toroids core.
It shoud have very high permeability to shield drive from outer magnetic fields.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 05:29:06 PM
Vid and quote from Larskro
Min. power use 2,9 volts x 50 mAmps = 0,145 watt. Speed 600rpm
I will try to reach zero power or overunity ?? free energy.
The toroid coil have about 300 turns. I have back EMF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGPRoHgz8Rw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGPRoHgz8Rw)

cat

Nice video and great job!!  I'm jealous that you have the parts to make a Steorn replication.  :)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 05:31:27 PM
Did some research on core materials:
[snip]
MetGlas                1,000,000

Ha ha, I already have that MetGlas core. Those cores are amazing! They're noncrystalline and amorphous cores. Just wish I had some ball bearings, rod, and all else that's needed to replicate an eOrbo version.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 29, 2009, 06:07:52 PM
If the key factor of operation is core saturation, then just selecting a material with a very high permeability would also require a strong field to saturate the core.
Would it be better to use a material that saturates just above what the magnets would be applying so that there would not be any loss in attraction but the coil could easily saturate the core?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 06:19:17 PM
@PaulLowrance,

Do you have a used computer fan? Some super glue? Some magnets?

Then you can make a super low friction rotor in no time. Just carefully take
apart the fan, remove the fan blades, glue magnets onto rotor hub, remove
the fan electronic. Now you have a low friction rotor with magnets on.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 29, 2009, 06:42:57 PM
As there are a garden variety of materials, best way to know the saturation point (Hmax) for a material is through manufacturer specs. Here is a good trick to calculate the amp-turns required to saturate a ferrite core.

http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2004-01/msg00104.html
(So Amp-turns = 0.8 x Hmax x length(cm))

Calculator for converting Oe to Amp/m :
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/magnetic-field-strength/calculator/oersted-%5BOe%5D-to-ampere-turn-per-meter-%5BAt/m%5D/

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 29, 2009, 07:02:02 PM
If the key factor of operation is core saturation, then just selecting a material with a very high permeability would also require a strong field to saturate the core.
Would it be better to use a material that saturates just above what the magnets would be applying so that there would not be any loss in attraction but the coil could easily saturate the core?

lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: mondrasek on December 29, 2009, 07:07:29 PM
@Omnibus, I agree completely.  I would just like to help those who are struggling to select materials and construction techniques for their set ups to have a concise list of the tradeoffs of each variable so they can choose wisely.  It takes so long to wind the toroid coils.  Choosing the wrong size wire, core material, number of turns, etc. can cause one to be quite far outside of the basic parameters already being learned.  And the recovery time after learning that mistake is long.  Especially if people are ordering the toroid core materials, wire, etc.  It would be best if they had all the information to choose a construction set that is the closest to optimum available with the knowledge gained to date.

Ultimately I believe most builders want to create a self runner.  That might not be what is needed to prove OU, but without it, many will not be satisfied.  Plus, nothing else has the same "wow" factor imho.  So I offer the idea that maximizing rotor torque must be a primary focus, and possibly secondary to minimizing the electrical input.

So much great information has surfaced on how to optimize the electrical control side.  Any more information on how to optimize the "free" energy torque output should be collected too.

Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: lumen on December 29, 2009, 07:12:20 PM
lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets

No, you are correct, I was saying that some materials that are rated low permeability, actually have very high initial permability but for a short range on the BH curve.
This may work out better in this case as long as the magnets used do not exceed the materials saturation point and lose some potential attraction.
The advantage is, it will require a smaller electrical input to the coil to saturate the core.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: neptune on December 29, 2009, 08:34:59 PM
Just a few practical hints for winding toroids. Assuming you know how many turns you need . First take a short piece of wire , and wind 10 turns. Unwind it , and measure its length. You now can calculate total wire length needed . Add say 10% to be safe , more if the winding is to be multi layered. Find the middle of the wire . Wind the coil in 2 halves , start at say 6 o'clock and wind through 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Start again at 6 , wind through 3 to twelve o'clock . You may find that if the wire is long , a shuttle is useful . Take piece of 10 mm dowel about60 cms long , and cut a slot about 2 cms deep into each end [ like the slot in an arrow. Bind the dowel with thread to stop the slots splitting . wind wire end over end onto the shuttle , and keep threading it thru the toroid like a needle . Unwind wire from shuttle as and when necessary . Hope this helps someone.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 08:40:28 PM
Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.

I agree totally, it should be kept in mind.  There are a lot of us however that aren't that far yet with our builds.  Me for instance, I just want a rotor that turns without my coils MELTING... lol..  I'm moving forward nicely though.

As for using steel for the core.  Sure the numbers sound good, and my simple tests show it works pretty well, but there may still be some problems not seen yet.  For instance, the whole point of this motor design is to eliminate Lenz Law.  Is the permeability going to be high enough to do this?  We will see.  As far as saturation, yes steel should saturate much easier than ferrite, but to be honest, I'm not so sure we need complete saturation to begin with.  Following everyones results, it seems that all that is required is to disrupt the domains in the core, to break the magnetic attraction.  So we should keep in mind that complete saturation may not truly be the goal here anyway.  I do not think Ossies setup is fully saturating those cores. I could be wrong of course, but I believe he is hitting it with just enough to jumble those domains.  BUT, saturation may be needed if the magnets are strong enough.  Then it would make it possible to keep increasing the free energy attraction, while still using the same input to break the attraction.  It seems the number of turns is by far the most important aspect to cut current so far.  Torque is another story, we will see what happens.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 08:49:54 PM
Just a few practical hints for winding toroids. Assuming you know how many turns you need . First take a short piece of wire , and wind 10 turns. Unwind it , and measure its length. You now can calculate total wire length needed . Add say 10% to be safe , more if the winding is to be multi layered. Find the middle of the wire . Wind the coil in 2 halves , start at say 6 o'clock and wind through 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Start again at 6 , wind through 3 to twelve o'clock . You may find that if the wire is long , a shuttle is useful . Take piece of 10 mm dowel about60 cms long , and cut a slot about 2 cms deep into each end [ like the slot in an arrow. Bind the dowel with thread to stop the slots splitting . wind wire end over end onto the shuttle , and keep threading it thru the toroid like a needle . Unwind wire from shuttle as and when necessary . Hope this helps someone.

Thanks for the info, it will most likely help save some alot of headaches.  I use pretty close to the same method, but there's a couple tips I can use.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 09:20:07 PM
@PaulLowrance,

Do you have a used computer fan? Some super glue? Some magnets?

Then you can make a super low friction rotor in no time. Just carefully take
apart the fan, remove the fan blades, glue magnets onto rotor hub, remove
the fan electronic. Now you have a low friction rotor with magnets on.

Groundloop.

Hi,

I just got back from the garage where I was tearing apart an old computer, and managed to get the hard drive disc out. It was a 130 MB (not 130GB) drive. And I found a screw that fits it just right, so it's now mounted on a piece of wood (not eddy currents). It spins okay, but I took another HD apart, newer HD, and this thing spins forever, but I can't find any screws to mount it, so I'll just use the old 130MB HD. If this does not work that well, then I'll try the PC fan like you suggested. Thanks for help though! I did not read your message until just now.

Here's a very short video of it so far,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxipzeLvD4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxipzeLvD4)

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 29, 2009, 09:21:13 PM

Following everyones results, it seems that all that is required is to disrupt the domains in the core, to break the magnetic attraction.  So we should keep in mind that complete saturation may not truly be the goal here anyway. 


That is a matter of experimentation. If you can get the same torque while staying below saturation, its a bonus !
However, you don't want the rotor to get attracted in reverse direction, when it flies by the core. So you can compensate that by keeping the coil on for some more time, which means increased duty cycle and input power. Sure there is a trade-off.

Some more thoughts on input optimization:

Building some arrangement to vary the duty cycle manually will be best. Goal is to keep it minimum. When the rotor magnet is well past the core, there is no point in keeping it on.
Say if there are 4 magnets (or 4 pairs), its not good to keep it on after 45 deg. Seeing that the motor will work with as little as 25% duty cycle, its better to keep it as low as possible given that torque remains constant. If the core is driven into saturation, the viscosity (if there is such a thing ;) ), will let the rotor not see it even if there is no current in it.

Collecting the induced emf (bemf or cemf or whatever) is a good thing, and it will lower the input even more, but I don't see how a battery would be able to keep up at high rpms, a cap will be needed if you plan to collect the emf.

That should cover the input side, IMO, and reduce some amount of hit-n-trial or rebuilds. Any more ideas are most welcome. Its very difficult to come up with design parameters at this time (and steorn is not telling any), but I will try to find something for output side also. And probably a decent method of measuring mechanical energy at the rotor, without which there is little point in building this stuff :)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 29, 2009, 10:06:24 PM
@ PL,
Yeah, I like using the hard drive parts also.  That's what I am using currently. What I like to do though is cut 2 circles from plywood, use a hole saw to cut out the center of them both.  Then pinch the disk between them using brass or aluminum screws, just outside the outer perimeter of the platinum disk.  I use brass and aluminum screws on the rotor, so as to not effect your magnets flux you are planing to install.  Aluminum screws work good on the rotor, but if the magnets are moving past the aluminum, it's not a good idea.  So I would steer clear of aluminum on the stator unless it's out of range of the flux.

But pinching the disk between two pieces of wood, makes it really easy to switch out your rotors if you need to make a couple different variations.  Hope some of this info may help. At least this is how I do it.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 10:22:51 PM
captainpecan,

That's a great idea to cut round pieces of wood. I only have one size round cutter for the drill press, and it's too small though. What's nice about that idea is arrow dynamics. Unfortunetly I might end up cutting two pieces of wood, one for each side of the disc, and epoxying those to the disc and of course the magnets will be epoxied to the wood, but that will have some wind drag. BTW, does anyone think that epoxy can hold the wood & magnets at say 2000 rpm?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 10:33:02 PM
Maybe the following is a better way than epoxying the wood to the harddrive discs. The hardrive has two metal discs, so how about cutting two pieces of wood (one for each side of the harddrive disc), then cut two thin slots into the wood so that the wood slips into the harddrives dual metal discs. Then wrap some metal wire around the entire disc, thus securing both wooden pieces. That way I can always remove the wood in case different size magnets are needed, or whatever. Also this avoids the 24 wait for the glue to dry.  ;D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 29, 2009, 10:37:27 PM
@PaulLowrance,

If you use Plywood and drill holes for the magnets AND then glue with Epoxy,
then the magnets will stay on the rotor at high rpm. It is no problem to
mount the coils above the magnets. If you have round magnets then the
drill method is the best way to do it.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: marek on December 29, 2009, 10:58:33 PM
Hi to all,

I just watch at yours work since Steorn last presentation. I think you are doing grate job, and I hope that this project will succeed!
I want to point on Steorn patent:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg218173#msg218173

I think it explains how orbo works, and how it should be optimized to work most efficient. Charts are self explanatory, and you can learn a lot. The main thing is that magnetic interactions in static system - due to the so called "magnetic viscosity" - are different than dynamic. According to patent when you increase relative speed between core and magnet, the core saturation is lagged in time and therefore its value decreased. While torque doesn't change as fast as saturation change (saturation decrease for about 100 times, but torque only 2). I wont explain every thing, you all have to read this. It is better explained there. Correct me if am wrong about this.

All the best!!!

marek
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 11:16:44 PM
Hi to all,

I just watch at yours work since Steorn last presentation. I think you are doing grate job, and I hope that this project will succeed!
I want to point on Steorn patent:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg218173#msg218173 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg218173#msg218173)

I think it explains how orbo works, and how it should be optimized to work most efficient. Charts are self explanatory, and you can learn a lot. The main thing is that magnetic interactions in static system - due to the so called "magnetic viscosity" - are different than dynamic. According to patent when you increase relative speed between core and magnet, the core saturation is lagged in time and therefore its value decreased. While torque doesn't change as fast as saturation change (saturation decrease for about 100 times, but torque only 2). I wont explain every thing, you all have to read this. It is better explained there. Correct me if am wrong about this.

All the best!!!

marek

Hi marek,

Thanks for that important info! I just knew it, that it was due to magnetic viscosity. Since you studied the Steorn patent already, what type of magnetic core do you recommend?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 29, 2009, 11:20:41 PM
I just took a look at the Steorn patent, and am amazed that it's all there, like marek said. They show everything from tons of magnetic viscosity plots to the design and theory. Steorn is legit!  :)

http://www.google.com/patents?id=1dOyAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=true (http://www.google.com/patents?id=1dOyAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=true)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: marek on December 29, 2009, 11:52:17 PM
Hi marek,

Thanks for that important info! I just knew it, that it was due to magnetic viscosity. Since you studied the Steorn patent already, what type of magnetic core do you recommend?

That I don't know, and patent says nothing about that. It just measure system. I think it must be set experimentally. It will depend on operating conditions (rpm, torque). When you look at the torque-flux chart I would try to run it at higher rpm, because you need less energy to desaturate core. But really, it has to be experimented with different cores materials. Worth thing to notice is that maximum torque is in quite narrow range before core, and drops to 0 when passes it. Negative torque too comes later, so maybe the electric pulse can also be lagged, and duty cycle can be reduced... Speculations;)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 30, 2009, 12:04:24 AM
I just took a look at the Steorn patent, and am amazed that it's all there, like marek said. They show everything from tons of magnetic viscosity plots to the design and theory. Steorn is legit!  :)

http://www.google.com/patents?id=1dOyAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=true (http://www.google.com/patents?id=1dOyAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=true)

Right on Paul, soneone else finally read the patent!!!!   Reall exellent work...   

Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 30, 2009, 12:13:57 AM
@PaulLowrance,

Yes, groundloop is right.  I always drill my magnets into the rotor whenever possible.  I use a Forester bit. Costs a couple extra dollars, but it makes perfect flat bottomed holes for round magnets.

This is what I was referring to that you can do with that hard drive platter.  This is not my Orbo replication, just a couple pictures of something else I'm working on also.  Hope it helps, it's pretty simple to do, and it lets you easily mount whatever you want to the rotor, while still using that awesome hard drive bearing!
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gyulasun on December 30, 2009, 12:15:59 AM
Hi Folks,

Steorn has another patent publication on Torque measurement of a rotating body, see here:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20090716&CC=WO&NR=2009087476A2&KC=A2


Abstract of  WO 2009087476  (A2)
A system and method is provided for determining the torque and kinetic energy of a rotating body without contacting the rotating body. Graduation markings are applied to mark regular angular displacements on the object. Reflected laser light from the graduations is sensed and converted into a pulsed signal. The pulses of the signal are time stamped and used to determine the velocity of the rotating object at angular displacements which can be less than 360 degrees. Changes in angular velocity during each rotation can be measured and used to determine changes in torque and kinetic energy during each rotation.

rgds, Gyula
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 02:06:01 AM
Hi All,

Regarding Steorn's design and claim that the magnet's field on their motor does not induce an emf in the toroid coils, in an ideal world this should be correct. But in the real world nothing is perfect.

Using store bought chokes with few turns will typical keep this induced emf down to the 1-10mV range. But as you all start to wind your own toroid coils on ferrite cores with many more winding turns and winding imperfections then the store bought chokes, this non-ideal induced emf will get larger and typically it can get up to 100mV.

This induced emf due to the coil's imperfection can also make the coil slightly polarity sensitive. Normally, with perfect coils, the polarity of the coil connection does not matter because the direct link between the electrical energy in the coil and the rotor magnet's field is broken. But with imperfect coils where there is a slight induced emf in the coil, this induction creates a link to the rotor magnet's field and will effect the performance of the motor, slightly, depending on the amount of induced emf.

Undertanding this, the induced emf then become very important when using multiple coils around the rotor on your test motor. When you engineer and build your motors, magnet and coil placement as well as even magnet field strength becomes very important. This is because each imperfect coil's induced emf can become additive. But by specially checking for this with a scope and connecting the coils together with specific polarity you can get the induced emf to cancel or reduce to a minimal amount. Typically less then 100 mV for multiple coils.

I have found that my motor performance is optimal when this is done and the trigger is far more stable.

So seeking perfection and accuracy in the design and construction of you your motor is very important if you plan on using more then one toroid coil. I know this holds true for most pulse motors but I though it worthwhile to describe some of the reasons behind it for this motor.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 30, 2009, 02:14:49 AM
Hi Ossi,
many thanks for the additional infos
with the imperfect coil´s induction.

Could you please try this circuit and let us now the charge rate of the cap ?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg218109#msg218109

Maybe you can make an additional video and show the voltage and
also use friction on the rotor manually and show, that the input current does not increase ?
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 30, 2009, 02:44:15 AM
Hi Captainpecan,

Thanks for the helpful info. Is there a way of making those wooden circles with just an ordinary table saw and drill press?


Hi Ossie,

Would you happen to know the resistance of each of your toroid coils?


Thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 30, 2009, 02:49:18 AM
BTW, I had the idea of flipping the entire setup seen in my video upside down and using the wood base as the part that spins and contains the magnets. So the harddrive metal discs would be the base.  Of course I would use a smaller base, as that one is a bit large, but the wooden base should extend beyond the metal discs to get the magnets away to minimize eddy currents.

... Awe what the heck, why not remove the bearings and do away with the metal disc completely? Has anyone ever tried to remove the bearings from the harddrive?
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 02:52:06 AM
Hi Ossie,

Would you happen to know the resistance of each of your toroid coils?

Thanks.

Hi PL,

Each coil is exactly 3.4 Ohms.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 30, 2009, 03:35:49 AM
Thanks for the helpful info. Is there a way of making those wooden circles with just an ordinary table saw and drill press?

Yeah, actually you can cut circles with a table saw, although I have not had to do it. There are some good video's online that show you how to.  It's pretty straight forward... Here's one... http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-cut-a-circle-on-a-table-saw-2

I was lucky enough to find a scroll saw at a pawn shop for $20, so that's what I use.  You may check your local pawn shops, you never know what other peoples junk will work very well for your projects.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 30, 2009, 04:08:59 AM
Yeah, actually you can cut circles with a table saw, although I have not had to do it. There are some good video's online that show you how to.  It's pretty straight forward... Here's one... http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-cut-a-circle-on-a-table-saw-2 (http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-cut-a-circle-on-a-table-saw-2)

I love it!  :)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 04:15:40 AM
Hi Ossi,
many thanks for the additional infos
with the imperfect coil´s induction.

Could you please try this circuit and let us now the charge rate of the cap ?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg218109#msg218109

Maybe you can make an additional video and show the voltage and
also use friction on the rotor manually and show, that the input current does not increase ?
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan and All,

Here is a load test video as requested. The description is as follows:

"The test in this motor shows the lack of an increase in input current when the rotor is placed under a load. The generator coil and lamp which is 12V, 100ma, is by no means efficient in design but purely used to represent a load only and not an attempt to effeciently extract electrical energy from the rotor. Any apparent increase in input current that you may perceive is due to the increase of the duty cycle cause by the reed switch being turned on for a longer period as the magnets pass by at low RPMs."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDABKqdB538

A fixed reed switch was used as the trigger in this video so output power was not optimal. I am still working on better trigger and switching methods for optimisation and functionality.

In regard to the cap charging test, I may do this at some stage but I am really not interested in it and don't see much point. Such a test is better suited to a Bedini motor or something designed to charge caps but I do not believe that this motor is designed to do this or will be any good at it...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 30, 2009, 04:26:43 AM
Ossie,

Your message in the video, "Coils are cold to the touch!" made my day!  ;D
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 04:34:35 AM
Ossie,

Your message in the video, "Coils are cold to the touch!" made my day!  ;D

Hi PL,

Looking at the low current the motor is drawing, I don't think it means anything special at this stage. It just means that resistive heating is being kept to a minimal....

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on December 30, 2009, 04:42:47 AM


In regard to the cap charging test, I may do this at some stage but I am really not interested in it and don't see much point. Such a test is better suited to a Bedini motor or something designed to charge caps but I do not believe that this motor is designed to do this or will be any good at it...

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie,
well done the new video.
It shows the skeptics that it is indeed just a motor and not a generator.

With the cap charging, I just wanted to see,
how much BackEMF power you could extract from the input power
in your setup.
Would be nice to see, if it is simular to Ben´s motor power recycling-extraction
capability.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 05:47:10 AM
Hi All,

Please see this video of my Steorn test motor running on a virtually dead 9V battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-W4WU6t8W8

This was just to show some people that this motor can run on very low levels of input power and not need power supplies, large lead acid batteries or even "D" cell batteries for it's input power.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: captainpecan on December 30, 2009, 06:13:16 AM
Hi All,

Please see this video of my Steorn test motor running on a virtually dead 9V battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-W4WU6t8W8

This was just to show some people that this motor can run on very low levels of input power and not need power supplies, large lead acid batteries or even "D" cell batteries for it's input power.

Regards,

Ossie

Once again, good stuff!  It's nice to see it running on about the power consumption a simple LED would take.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 08:33:40 AM
Hi All,

I have just mounted an additional two coils on my Steorn test motor platform for a maximum of 4 toroidal drive coils and I thought it important to show other motor replicators out there the importance of the cogging effect that your motor should have. Please see the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZdNEb2aCd4

According to the theory, the motor will gain energy from the rotor magnets attraction to the toroidal coil's cores. So to magnify or take most advantage of this, you want your rotor to be in attraction mode, ideally, 100% of the time through one revolution. In reality I have managed to get it to be about 95% of the time as can be seen in the video but this is very important for this motor and something you need to take into account when designing your motor for the best efficiency you can manage.

When you do this, your motor will have a very pronounced and strong cogging effect at very low RPMs such that even when the magnets are a considerable distance from the coils they will still have a strong enough attraction to pull the rotor towards them.

A perfectly designed rotor in regard to this will be one where it is very difficult to position the rotor such that it doesn't not pull itself towards the coils.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 30, 2009, 09:28:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF0PdJn984s
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: markdansie on December 30, 2009, 09:29:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF0PdJn984s
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: callanan on December 30, 2009, 09:41:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala#p/a/u/1/BX0YZyI75bM

http://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala#p/a/u/0/1yurZxrKkeo
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 10:29:07 AM
Hi All,

Please see this video of my Steorn test motor running on a virtually dead 9V battery.
...

Hi Ossie,

A "virtually dead" battery can still provide current for a while when the voltage is not a question (and here it is the case, because the coils have a low resistance).
Why to not replace the "virtually dead" 9V battery with a capacitor of some hundreds µF?

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 10:45:44 AM
Hi Ossie,

A "virtually dead" battery can still provide current for a while when the voltage is not a question (and here it is the case, because the coils have a low resistance).
Why to not replace the "virtually dead" 9V battery with a capacitor of some hundreds µF?
Because exchanging the battery for a capacitor turns the device into something else, not what is claimed nere. If you understand the principle of action of this motor you'd no better that it has to work with a battery, preferably not virtually dead battery, even.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 10:47:41 AM
I agree, if you have a device that you can show is over 100% efficient, then overunity is easy to prove there, so certainly efficiency is relevant to overunity.

Omnibus is talking about total energy, though, so I suppose if heat output + mechanical output > energy input, you have overunity.

How do you accurately measure the total heat from a device though?

Hi eatenbyagrue
You do not need it, or only in a second step.
In the first step, to accurately measure the input and output energy in order to be sure the second one is more than the first, is enough. I suppose that all in all, we would be satisfied with such a proof.
Then we could search for the hidden source (ZPE, environnemental thermal bath...) using calorimeters or other means but this would be only for intellectual satisfaction and theorical knowledge.




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 11:03:02 AM
Zero point energy (ZPE) is a non-phenomenon and should be excluded as a possible explanation. Environmental thermal bath is out of the question too as an explanation once one gets comfortable with the principle of action of the motor. This is pure and genuine obtainment of energy out of no pre-existing energy reservoir -- violation of CoE in its fullest.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 11:09:26 AM
Because exchanging the battery for a capacitor turns the device into something else, not what is claimed nere.
...

What is claimed is a motor running from a battery.
Omnibus, you must be informed that it is not new  :D

If the battery is a mean for storing and recovering electrical energy, and nobody said it is not the case here, then we can use capacitors instead. It is just a question of quantity of charges that we have to deal with (with just an adaptation of the electronics because a capacitor does not work at a constant voltage).

All motor cycles being identical, it is clear that the balance of charges exchange is the same at each motor turn. Thus a battery or capacitor able to store and furnish the charges smoothly on one turn is enough. This needs not at all a high capacity battery like that used by Steorn.

But if it is a magic battery, I agree that we cannot replace it by other means.

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 11:09:59 AM
There are many knowledgeable people here, fine engineers and researchers, who have followed the development of this idea for a long time who would know where it actually originated from. Who was the first to propose that a permanent magnet motor would only be coupled magnetically with the core of a coil (probably toroid is the best choice but who propsed it first) excluding any electrical rotor-coil coupling? Who was the first to notice that the current and voltage scope traces don't change form under load in such a machine which is a direct proof that said machine is OU. This contraption os one of the most brilliant ideas I've seen inthe OU field and kudos to Steorn for bringing it so powerfully into the public space.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 11:33:46 AM
Zero point energy (ZPE) is a non-phenomenon and should be excluded as a possible explanation. Environmental thermal bath is out of the question too as an explanation once one gets comfortable with the principle of action of the motor. This is pure and genuine obtainment of energy out of no pre-existing energy reservoir -- violation of CoE in its fullest.

"Zero point energy (ZPE) is a non-phenomenon..."
"Environmental thermal bath is out of the question..."

It is irrelevant to say that possible explanations for a not proved claim are wrong. It does not make sens, it is to put the plow before the horse.
The question now is: is there OU?




Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 11:39:42 AM
The answer is: yes, there is OU. The constancy of U and I even under load prove it.

As for its explanation, as I said, in this and in any other case zpe cannot be utilized because zpe is a non-phenomenon. The case we're discussing is a geniuine OU, not seeming one and therefore environmental thermal bath as an explanation is also out of the question.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 11:42:30 AM
What is claimed is a motor running from a battery.
Omnibus, you must be informed that it is not new  :D

If the battery is a mean for storing and recovering electrical energy, and nobody said it is not the case here, then we can use capacitors instead. It is just a question of quantity of charges that we have to deal with (with just an adaptation of the electronics because a capacitor does not work at a constant voltage).

All motor cycles being identical, it is clear that the balance of charges exchange is the same at each motor turn. Thus a battery or capacitor able to store and furnish the charges smoothly on one turn is enough. This needs not at all a high capacity battery like that used by Steorn.

But if it is a magic battery, I agree that we cannot replace it by other means.
Like I said, if you really understood what's going on here you would've known that it is new and you wouldn't have even posted the above text.
Title: Re: Steorn - it's all a matter of days away!!!
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 12:11:54 PM
If they're paying $$$ for ad space and intend to do nothing, as they have for the last 4+ years, that's just wrong. Playing Devil's Advocate, it could simply be a maneuver to keep investors paying Steorn's bills. I hope I'm wrong, but it really seems quite absurd at this point.

I think you are right. 4 years to make a small motor powered from a high capacity battery is the evidence.
It is not "Playing Devil's Advocate" but common sense.


Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 01:02:10 PM
Common sense? Common sense has always been that even 4000 years of effort won't bring even the smallest motor to display OU. However, it took only a couple of decades to accomplish that (those 4 years included). That's astounding.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: eastcoastwilly on December 30, 2009, 01:08:44 PM
I would be interested to see someone attach a fan blade to the motors shaft. Then put a plastic or cardboard tube over top of the fan blade. On the other end of the tube mount a small fan blade or motor  (like a 12 volt pc fan) with the fan blade reversed to use the airflow to power the small generator.

I am interested to see one of these little guys under a small load.

I had seen someone on youtube a few months ago do this with a Bedini motor (I think) and was interested in the concept. Of course, I can't find the video now.

Keep up the great work everyone, it's very entertaining :)

Will
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 01:48:42 PM
Like I said, if you really understood what's going on here you would've known that it is new and you wouldn't have even posted the above text.

What is possibly going on here:
According to the plausible explanation from Jean-louis Naudin, it is stated that the rotor magnet is attracted by the magnetic core of the ferrite toroid.
It is stated that a current pulse saturates the toroid core when the magnet is about to quit its nearest position from the toroid, allowing the magnet to freely continues its motion, or at least to be only partially retained by a force weaker than the first attractive force, resulting in a net force creating the motor torque.

It is stated that there is no action/reaction between the coil circuit and the rotor magnet, because the B field remains located in the toroid core.

Where is the fault? In the last point. When the rotor magnet approaches the toroid, the magnetic domains align along the magnetic flux of the magnet.
The magnetic domains (separated from one another by the "domain walls") can be thought like ensembles of current loops.
When a current pulse is provided to the coil, it establishes a magnetic field that re-aligns the magnetic domains. Energy is needed to exert this torque onto the "current loops" of the magnetic domains, against the torque due to the permanent magnet. Thus the permanent magnet and the field from the coil are linked. It is only the big power used to energized the coil (tens W in the Naudin experiment) in comparison to the weak power that the magnet provides (probably mW or tens of mW), that prevents to clearly observe their relation through their mutual actions onto the magnetic domains.

The explanation from JL Naudin is conventional. Only the conclusion that there would be over unity for the reason indicated above is clearly outside of the observed facts. In Steorn and Naudin experiments, there is none fact proving OU.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: futuristic on December 30, 2009, 01:48:45 PM
Guys check out this new clanzers videos behind the scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1reS5ANxjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVBcdEn-xa0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_1EcQcvkQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev0B-_2PcMk
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 30, 2009, 02:27:08 PM
Guys check out this new clanzers videos behind the scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1reS5ANxjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVBcdEn-xa0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_1EcQcvkQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev0B-_2PcMk

Looks like Ossie's motor is pushing them.  They have NOT got the current down and possibly figured out how to do it!!!!!  BEAUTIFUL plastic work but electronically I am beginning to wonder.  Glad you released them so we can see where they are at. Using a DVM as a current meter in this situation is a instrumentation NO NO NO!.....Working like mad on my motor.

A great day!

Respectfully
Ben
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omnibus on December 30, 2009, 02:35:10 PM
@exnihiloest,

Never mind.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 30, 2009, 03:12:19 PM
Looks like Ossie's motor is pushing them.  They have NOT got the current down and possibly figured out how to do it!!!!!  BEAUTIFUL plastic work but electronically I am beginning to wonder.  Glad you released them so we can see where they are at. Using a DVM as a current meter in this situation is a instrumentation NO NO NO!.....Working like mad on my motor.

A great day!

Respectfully
Ben

Who's is they, Steorn? Sean does not represent Steorn he's just an independant tinkerer who's part of the Steorn developers base. From February anyone will be able to join this develoment base at the mentioned annual fee.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: CLaNZeR on December 30, 2009, 03:21:06 PM
Looks like Ossie's motor is pushing them.  They have NOT got the current down and possibly figured out how to do it!!!!!  BEAUTIFUL plastic work but electronically I am beginning to wonder.  Glad you released them so we can see where they are at. Using a DVM as a current meter in this situation is a instrumentation NO NO NO!.....Working like mad on my motor.

A great day!

Respectfully
Ben

Those were some short snips from the SKDB back in November. I am only 1 replicator out of many more that may show their rigs and results as allowed.

We have came along way since November, just thought it would be nice to show that behind the scenes in the SKDB we have not just been sat on our hands.

Nothing being pushed by anyone, Steorn are taking their time doing their demo over 5 weeks as they planned. We were shown alot in week 1 and looking forward to January as should be cool to see their technology being shown and analysed by the public.

Cheers

CLaNZeR
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Omega_0 on December 30, 2009, 03:25:46 PM
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=62364&page=1#Item_5

Informative ongoing thread on steorns test cum demo plans during Jan 2010. Looks like this will settle most of issues.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: k4zep on December 30, 2009, 03:45:51 PM
Those were some short snips from the SKDB back in November. I am only 1 replicator out of many more that may show their rigs and results as allowed.

We have came along way since November, just thought it would be nice to show that behind the scenes in the SKDB we have not just been sat on our hands.

Nothing being pushed by anyone, Steorn are taking their time doing their demo over 5 weeks as they planned. We were shown alot in week 1 and looking forward to January as should be cool to see their technology being shown and analysed by the public.

Cheers

CLaNZeR
 
Thanks CLa,

I stand corrected.  Keep up the good work.

Respectfully
Ben

Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: Groundloop on December 30, 2009, 03:47:38 PM
All,

I have always found (during my research) that a rotor is just a waste of energy.
Attached is a proposed circuit that have no rotor. This should be easy to test.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: tinu on December 30, 2009, 03:53:37 PM
... the current and voltage scope traces don't change form under load in such a machine which is a direct proof that said machine is OU.
...

Actually current and voltage scope traces DO CHANGE!

What Steorn claims regarding the oscilloscope traces is a trap and I’m quite surprised you’ve also fallen into it.

Let me detail:
1. I admit that top&bottom (min&max) values for voltage and current do not change under load. (I also see here a small question mark related to the precision of the measurements and in that respect I fully support your call for the necessity of highest possible accuracy but let’s admit for the moment that those min&max values do not change at all.)
2. I also admit that duty cycle does not change under load. (That’s true for a good built as it relates to the proper switching; in practice it may not be always the case but we will disregard any non-idealities and poor-builds and consider only the case of ideal switching )
3. I hope everyone agrees that RPM do change under load. The higher the load, the lower the RPM. (At equilibrium it should be possible to draw a nice RPM-load chart for a given power input)

Despite the all above, scope traces DO CHANGE. They may look similar at a first glance but they are not! They simply change because both voltage and current follow an exponential function. At lower RPM, even if the duty cycle is the same, the values of voltage and current do progress for a longer time on their exponential curve, hence the difference. It is simple math – although the eye can be tricked when looking at those oscilloscope traces, an exponential curve remains exponential and as long as the on-time is changing, the traces change too and so does change the power input.

Fortunately, imho the experimental proof for the above is already available but for now I’d like to hear a rebuttal if someone disagree with me and considers necessary to discuss further on the subject.

Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: broli on December 30, 2009, 04:19:55 PM
Actually current and voltage scope traces DO CHANGE!

What Steorn claims regarding the oscilloscope traces is a trap and I’m quite surprised you’ve also fallen into it.

Let me detail:
1. I admit that top&bottom (min&max) values for voltage and current do not change under load. (I also see here a small question mark related to the precision of the measurements and in that respect I fully support your call for the necessity of highest possible accuracy but let’s admit for the moment that those min&max values do not change at all.)
2. I also admit that duty cycle does not change under load. (That’s true for a good built as it relates to the proper switching; in practice it may not be always the case but we will disregard any non-idealities and poor-builds and consider only the case of ideal switching )
3. I hope everyone agrees that RPM do change under load. The higher the load, the lower the RPM. (At equilibrium it should be possible to draw a nice RPM-load chart for a given power input)

Despite the all above, scope traces DO CHANGE. They may look similar at a first glance but they are not! They simply change because both voltage and current follow an exponential function. At lower RPM, even if the duty cycle is the same, the values of voltage and current do progress for a longer time on their exponential curve, hence the difference. It is simple math – although the eye can be tricked when looking at those oscilloscope traces, an exponential curve remains exponential and as long as the on-time is changing, the traces change too and so does change the power input.

Fortunately, imho the experimental proof for the above is already available but for now I’d like to hear a rebuttal if someone disagree with me and considers necessary to discuss further on the subject.

Best regards,
Tinu

My rebuttal is that this is relative. If you are considering an ideal setup why not make the inductor ideal as well? Meaning it has no resistance and is super conductive, now all the energy from the battery will never be lost theoretically as you can collapse the field into a capacitor after the magnet has passed by. So your argument is just relative from the setup you have on hand. Of course superconductivity toroids aren't easy to come by so you can just simulate this by using the right parameters to find optimal power performance. But that is rather an engineering issue.
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: gravityblock on December 30, 2009, 04:19:58 PM
Yes, this way with a backing plate you can increase the attraction forces onto the ferrite core.
So you have N and S facing coming from the 2 magnets attracting the ferrite core.

Regards, Stefan.

Being able to increase the attraction force to the core is huge.  Do you have any idea how much the increase will be with the backing plate, approximately?  A wild guess would be a 50% increase. 

Thanks for the info,

GB
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: exnihiloest on December 30, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
All,

I have always found (during my research) that a rotor is just a waste of energy.
Attached is a proposed circuit that have no rotor. This should be easy to test.

Groundloop.

You are right. The hypothetical principle of Steorn machine could be applied to solid state, for example by using the setup you modelized, or simpler by playing with 2 crossed magnetic fields in T.
The vertical bar of the T could be a permanent magnet, and the upper horizontal bar a simple electromagnet. The flux from the vertical magnet splits into 2 equal parts in the upper horizontal core of the coil, with a resultant null effect on the electromagnet (the two half-flux have opposite directions).
A pulse in the coil saturates the core, thus modulates the flux from the permanent magnet that took the path. Another coil in the path, for example wound around a core extending the lower permanent magnet section, could classically transform the flux changing  into current.
Nevertheless it does not work for the reason I have previously given: the current pulse in the coil waste energy to align the magnetic domain along its own flux but against the torque that exerts the permanent magnet (even though there is no macroscopic motion).
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 30, 2009, 04:41:47 PM
Why all of the tinselKoala links? The guys is clueless.

Although I believe Orbo is cop>1, I am not a follower of CoE because it is impossible to prove because humanity will never know everything, and therefore one can never know if the energy is coming from an unknown source. And besides, so far I cannot explain away the NdFeB magnets chilling 2.5°F during my experiment.  :)
Title: Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM</