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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944340 times)

EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1635 on: April 09, 2016, 11:15:51 PM »
Quote from: minnie on April 09, 2016, 10:41:13 PM


 You've hit the nail on the head wistiti!
           John.




Acting as if you are Inocent, it was you, John, that were partisan to this same Childish Competition.

Talk about chopping the Turkys Head off and watching it run around the yard!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

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tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1636 on: April 09, 2016, 11:51:07 PM »
Quote from: minnie on April 09, 2016, 10:41:13 PM


 You've hit the nail on the head wistiti!
           John.

Oh there you are   ::)
The war is over,the smoke has cleared,and up pops John from his rabbit hole.


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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1637 on: April 10, 2016, 12:00:17 AM »



John, you should watch this: Induction and Faraday's Law example problem

Next time you may have some ammunition to join the debate!

Damn, I didnt see anything about 90 Degrees there. You know what I did see though?

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org
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minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1638 on: April 10, 2016, 12:01:54 AM »



 This is my story. I was going to get an oscilloscope.
 I saw what a hash the Junkie made with his attempts.
 I spent a few dollars and mailed the offending board to
 the Koala.ln a couple of days he had sorted it.
        John.

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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1639 on: April 10, 2016, 12:15:12 AM »
Quote from: minnie on April 10, 2016, 12:01:54 AM


 This is my story. I was going to get an oscilloscope.
 I saw what a hash the Junkie made with his attempts.
 I spent a few dollars and mailed the offending board to
 the Koala.ln a couple of days he had sorted it.
        John.



Nice Story, you know what they say about storeys?

Ever heard the term: "Carpium Chronicus"?

Please feel free to defend yourself: Notable Characteristics: Feels compelled to share an (unfavorable) opinion on just about everything. Has never seen an artistic masterpiece or a preschool graduation that couldn't use a bit of tweaking. Prone to eye rolling, smirking, and/or slow-motion head shaking, as well as a tone best described as oozing with condescension.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org







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minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1640 on: April 10, 2016, 12:31:07 AM »



  I'm an old man and for the last few months I've been doin'
  10 to 12 hrs a day on the farm, cooking , cleaning , washing
  and baby sitting. That's been every day of the week too.
   This is a bit of amusement for me, the idiocy of it all,
   grown men spending their time and money arguing over one
  poxy coupled inductor.
    I use my Fisher Paykel clothes washer for laundry and my
   Dyson for cleaning-and very good they are at it too.
           John.
 

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minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1641 on: April 10, 2016, 01:03:55 AM »



  What's really got to me is that my life is almost over and I've only
  just started to understand what relativity is and the beauty of it
  and the possible relevance of quantum mechanics.
 
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shylo

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1642 on: April 10, 2016, 01:03:56 AM »
What happens when all fields are pushing?
2 approaching magnets at different distance from the coil.
The coil builds a field to oppose the oncoming magnet, closest to it.
But that opposing field is now attracting the other magnet which is further away.
The more you increase the magnetic field , the more attraction and repulsion you get.
Distance is the way I'm trying.
artv
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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1643 on: April 10, 2016, 01:19:03 AM »
Quote from: minnie on April 10, 2016, 01:03:55 AM


  What's really got to me is that my life is almost over and I've only
  just started to understand what relativity is and the beauty of it
  and the possible relevance of quantum mechanics.
 


Truely, Nature is beautiful! Eligant in everyway! Perfection a every level.

Mysteries to us are no doubt very minor details to the Creator ;)

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org
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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1644 on: April 10, 2016, 01:21:34 AM »
Quote from: shylo on April 10, 2016, 01:03:56 AM
What happens when all fields are pushing?
2 approaching magnets at different distance from the coil.
The coil builds a field to oppose the oncoming magnet, closest to it.
But that opposing field is now attracting the other magnet which is further away.
The more you increase the magnetic field , the more attraction and repulsion you get.
Distance is the way I'm trying.
artv



All excellent observations!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org
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tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1645 on: April 10, 2016, 01:26:46 AM »
Quote from: EMJunkie on April 09, 2016, 04:53:54 PM



Faradays Law predicts no such thing!!!

Again, E.M.F = -N dϕ/dt

The (-) sign is 180 Degrees, not 90 Degrees. He infered your Current and Voltage were the same.

See attached Image:

Mate, I am only standing for this because its wrong, its not right we let others learning, see these errors and believe them to be fact.

PW, Brad, others, I am sorry but its true, errors should be corrected!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Quote
Brad, this quote is wrong:


Brad, your scope shot shows the expected 90 degree phase difference as predicted by Faraday's Law:

Actually,that quote is correct in regards to the scope shot i provided with the schematic and scope probe placements.
According to Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction, rate of change of flux linkages is equal to the induced emf,so the induced EMF will be greatest when the rate of change of flux is greatest.
If we look at the schematic below,with the attached scope shot,we can see that the EMF is indeed greatest when the rate of change of flux is greatest,and the EMF is 0 when the rate of change of magnetic flux is 0.

The blue trace is our current,and from that current trace we can see when the rate of change of magnetic flux will be greatest,which is when the currents wave form is passing through the 0 volt line on the scope,at which point we can see that the induced EMF is at it's highest value.. When the current is at it's peak,then the rate of change of magnetic flux is at it's lowest-even though the magnetic flux will be at it's greatest,at which point we can see the induced EMF is 0.

Remember-the question was asked based around the schematic and associated scope shot supplied. If a resistive load is placed on the L2 coil,then the current trace on L1,and the voltage trace(our EMF trace)on L2 will then become very close to 180* to each other. This is once again assuming that we are operating the transformer at it's designed frequency,load,and the load is resistive.

I think maybe that you have either-
1-seen the current trace as showing the peak as being the greatest rate of change of the magnetic flux
Or 2- missing the fact that L2 (the secondary coil) has no load on it,where as if it did,then the EMF of L2 would shift a further 90*(there about's) to line up with the current now flowing through it,which would then show a 180* (or close to) phase difference to that of L1s current trace.

So to sum up-
TK is correct,and Faradays law of induction holds true for the scope shot given with the attached schematic.
Only when a load is attached to L2(our secondary) dose -N dϕ/dt come into play,as L2 will only produce it's own CEMF when a current is flowing through it,and this CEMF(as we know)will be 180*(or close to) the EMF that induced it.

Hope that clears that up.


Brad
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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1646 on: April 10, 2016, 01:49:19 AM »
Quote from: tinman on April 10, 2016, 01:26:46 AM


Brad, your scope shot shows the expected 90 degree phase difference as predicted by Faraday's Law:

Actually,that quote is correct in regards to the scope shot i provided with the schematic and scope probe placements.
According to Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction, rate of change of flux linkages is equal to the induced emf,so the induced EMF will be greatest when the rate of change of flux is greatest.
If we look at the schematic below,with the attached scope shot,we can see that the EMF is indeed greatest when the rate of change of flux is greatest,and the EMF is 0 when the rate of change of magnetic flux is 0.

The blue trace is our current,and from that current trace we can see when the rate of change of magnetic flux will be greatest,which is when the currents wave form is passing through the 0 volt line on the scope,at which point we can see that the induced EMF is at it's highest value.. When the current is at it's peak,then the rate of change of magnetic flux is at it's lowest-even though the magnetic flux will be at it's greatest,at which point we can see the induced EMF is 0.

Remember-the question was asked based around the schematic and associated scope shot supplied. If a resistive load is placed on the L2 coil,then the current trace on L1,and the voltage trace(our EMF trace)on L2 will then become very close to 180* to each other. This is once again assuming that we are operating the transformer at it's designed frequency,load,and the load is resistive.

I think maybe that you have either-
1-seen the current trace as showing the peak as being the greatest rate of change of the magnetic flux
Or 2- missing the fact that L2 (the secondary coil) has no load on it,where as if it did,then the EMF of L2 would shift a further 90*(there about's) to line up with the current now flowing through it,which would then show a 180* (or close to) phase difference to that of L1s current trace.

So to sum up-
TK is correct,and Faradays law of induction holds true for the scope shot given with the attached schematic.
Only when a load is attached to L2(our secondary) dose -N dϕ/dt come into play,as L2 will only produce it's own CEMF when a current is flowing through it.

Hope that clears that up.


Brad


Hey Brad, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

EMF is not Current. EMF is "Columb's of Charge" measured in Volts. Which is a quantity that can be measured on a "Generators" Terminals, when No Current is Flowing.

It is Apples and Oranges we are comparing when fitting your Scope Shots to behaviours.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction

Faraday's law of induction is a basic law of electromagnetism predicting how a magnetic field will interact with an electric circuit to produce an electromotive force (EMF)


We both know, and have discussed on many Ocasions, The Magnetic Field is Current, they are one in the same things. The Magnetic Field is Not Voltage - the mesaurement of EMF!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org
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EMJunkie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1647 on: April 10, 2016, 02:11:26 AM »



Also, the Phase Angle can change, as both you and TK have shown, at any time, through adding a Load, or change in Frequency, and others reasons. E.G: Adding a DC Bias to the device.

By definition, Faradays Law of Electromagnetic Induction, including Heinrich Lenz's contribution, predicts EMF. Which is by definition the (-) of the Source, which is mathematically equal to 180 degrees, or Anti Phase.

Quote from: EMJunkie on April 09, 2016, 03:16:42 AM

Electrical Science for Technicians

Ref: Electrical Science for Technicians: Page 198



   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org
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MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1648 on: April 10, 2016, 02:50:48 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of moaning and groaning and shameless outright lying when it comes to the wine glass questions.  Or there will be more strutting little fake-ass peacocks flashing their phony colours and saying, "Oh, I already knew that."

This is a no-strutting-peacock no-outright-lying zone when it comes to the wine glass questions.  So if you want to answer them now then give it a shot, don't dare say after the fact that you could answer the questions.  Show that you have some moral fiber and character.

Here are the questions, only short, simple answers will qualify as correct answers.  Don't even think about a copy-paste.

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

Let's see if any of the resonance fetishists can answer the questions successfully.
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tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1649 on: April 10, 2016, 02:59:05 AM »
Quote from: EMJunkie on April 10, 2016, 01:49:19 AM

Hey Brad, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

It is Apples and Oranges we are comparing when fitting your Scope Shots to behaviours.

 

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Quote
EMF is not Current. EMF is "Columb's of Charge" measured in Volts.

That is correct,and the yellow trace in the scope shot is measuring the columb's of charge by way of showing us a voltage trace.

Quote
Which is a quantity that can be measured on a "Generators" Terminals, when No Current is Flowing.

That is also correct. And if we use a PM generator,the EMF produced from the stator coil will be 0 when the PM is directly at the center of the stator coil's core-where the induced magnetic field into that core is at it's greatest,but the rate of change of that magnetic flux through the core is 0,and so the EMF is also 0.

Quote
The Magnetic Field is Current, they are one in the same things.

The magnetic field is the result of current flow through a conductor.
As i said,and showed above with the generator example,the magnetic flux through the core will be at maximum when the EMF is at 0,and so the current flow will be at maximum when the rate of change of magnetic flux is 0,and the EMF will also be at 0 when the rate of change of magnetic flux is at 0.
See pic below.

Quote
The Magnetic Field is Not Voltage - the mesaurement of EMF!

That is correct.
But a changing magnetic field through a conductor produces an EMF in that conductor.

Quote
We both know, and have discussed on many Ocasions,

Yes,but it has been with a load placed on the secondary,which will then put the secondaries CEMF 180* to that of the primaries EMF,as the secondary now will have current flowing through it,and will produce it's own CEMF which is 180* from the EMF of the primary that produced it.
The primary has an EMF placed across it,and the secondary produces an EMF that apposes it-(a counter EMF-our 180* phase relationship) - but only when current flows through it.
But if the secondary is open(as it was in my schematic),then the EMF across the secondary is inline with the rate of change of the magnetic flux through the core,not the strength of the magnetic flux in the core-where maximum field strength is indicated by peak current,and maximum rate of change is indicated at the 0 volt line of the current trace.

Brad
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