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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944380 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1305 on: March 30, 2016, 10:12:38 PM »
That's just silly nit-picky BS because I am using common vernacular to describe the combustion in the cylinder.  It's gratuitous nonsense.  Why are you ignoring what is actually being stated, that resonance inside the cylinder is no good?  You are creating your own Orwellian nightmare yourself.  No need to brainwash the citizens, they will happily brainwash themselves.

Magluvin

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1306 on: March 30, 2016, 11:24:49 PM »
That's just silly nit-picky BS because I am using common vernacular to describe the combustion in the cylinder.  It's gratuitous nonsense.  Why are you ignoring what is actually being stated, that resonance inside the cylinder is no good?  You are creating your own Orwellian nightmare yourself.  No need to brainwash the citizens, they will happily brainwash themselves.

Common words to use for people who 'know' about engines well enough to debate about them is 'burn' and 'detonation'.

Effects of resonance, from what Im seeing so far, can be had in just 1/4 cycle.   When we disconnect input to a coil, the field collapse voltages rise to the freq of the coils resonant freq. So the first spike is at the resonant freq of the coil. If we look closer by changing the time base on the scope, we can see the spike is just the first upward, or downward, swing of the coils resonant cycle.  So we dont have to have full, multiple waves of resonant freq for it to be called a resonance effect.  The effects of it can be had in just 1/4 of the first wave. ;)

Mags

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1307 on: March 31, 2016, 01:19:30 AM »
Really?  You apparently didn't even read the results of your Google book search.

Yeah, when the fuel mixture explodes inside the cylinder, the burned gasses create pressure waves at resonant frequencies which causes an undesirable "diesel knock."  This causes the engine block walls to vibrate causing noise radiation.

They are studying ways of understanding and reducing or eliminating this problem by putting pressure transducers inside the cylinders and recording the undesirable pressure waves associated with the combustion process.

So resonance in the combustion chamber is undesirable.  It causes excessive noise and certainly if the walls of the engine block are taking on added vibrational stresses that's can't be a good thing.  If you could eliminate that resonance, then the energy that causes the noise and vibrates the walls of the engine block could be directed towards pushing on the pistons instead.

MileHigh

MH

I was replying in regards to your comment -Quote:  But the actual engine itself, the pistons, the valves, the camshaft, the crankcase, the ignition, etc, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with resonance.

The fact is,i have read that paper,and many more like it.that are based around the same research.
What they are saying,is that the correct bowl cavity shape and size within the piston,plays a vital roll in the performance of that engine. they are showing you how the incorrect bowl configuration can lead to unwanted vibration's,and thus expended energy in way of vibration's.

Like i said,there is much more research and information on combustion resonance research,and this has led to todays very high performance diesel engine's. They shape this bowl in such a way that it creates a standing wave within that bowl,which has led to much faster,complete, and more powerful combustion explosion's.

These are not fairy tails MH,these are realities.
So we can either base our research around realities,or we can continue to put all our eggs into the one basket that is doomed to fall.

You are very correct when you say that some resonance in ICE's is a bad thing--E.G,like i was saying with the cooling fin's of the old air cooled ICE's. But there are also places that achieving resonant states increases the performance of the engine. The best research is done by finding the wanted and unwanted resonant states of each component of the ICE.

It is the very same for a transformer,where reaching a resonant state of that transformer will allow you to draw more energy from that transformer,while at the same time reducing the input energy to that transformer. So resonance dose indeed increase efficiencies.

Brad

Bob Smith

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1308 on: March 31, 2016, 02:12:12 AM »
No, that's complete nonsense and you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
Thank you for proving my point.
Bob

Bob Smith

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1309 on: March 31, 2016, 02:19:32 AM »
Dear Bob,

You naughty boy, you can't post this kind information without getting first permission, min. 5 copy and stamp, 3-6 month's waiting, this from the flying Upper-Totem-Pole.

And Right, you see, with in only 5 min. a negative reaction, Red-Card!!

WITTS, Ainslie .............. all crazy, according our balcony chicken / nickname.

Thanks, Johan

P.s. Fast jets are flying with slow burning Diesel fuel, the better LNG we let, because bad mixture with TMA, science slaves.
Heh heh
Yes,
I have transgressed the paradigmantic norms
And spoken of things taboo.
Your red card I gladly will take with honour,
And wear it with pride, I shall too!
 ;)
Bob Smith
Resonant Renegade
Running with a shaky crowd  :o

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1310 on: March 31, 2016, 04:56:15 AM »
Common words to use for people who 'know' about engines well enough to debate about them is 'burn' and 'detonation'.

Effects of resonance, from what Im seeing so far, can be had in just 1/4 cycle.   When we disconnect input to a coil, the field collapse voltages rise to the freq of the coils resonant freq. So the first spike is at the resonant freq of the coil. If we look closer by changing the time base on the scope, we can see the spike is just the first upward, or downward, swing of the coils resonant cycle.  So we dont have to have full, multiple waves of resonant freq for it to be called a resonance effect.  The effects of it can be had in just 1/4 of the first wave. ;)

Mags

This sounds like the nodding duck affirmation club, just believe what you want to believe to make yourself happy.

SeaMonkey

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1311 on: March 31, 2016, 05:01:24 AM »
Quote from: Bob Smith
...
Bob Smith
Resonant Renegade
Running with a shaky crowd :o


Excellent!  You've got Spunk! ;)

Rotational Resonance in machinery that is
inherently "unbalanced" can be very "shaky"
itself.  To the point of self destruction on
occasion. :( :'(

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1312 on: March 31, 2016, 05:04:50 AM »
Brad:

If there is "much more research and information on combustion resonance research" then how come the only link you could come up with talked about the undesirable effects of any kind of resonance associated with combustion in a cylinder?  Right now I am suspecting that you tried to find something and thought that you struck pay-dirt, but you didn't really read through it.  I am sure there is a ton of research on combustion in a piston, but you are going to have to prove with good links that there is "combustion resonance research" to convince me.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1313 on: March 31, 2016, 05:12:17 AM »
Thank you for proving my point.
Bob

This is not Planet Bizarro and I did not "prove your point."  The burden of proof would be on you to prove your outlandish claims.  Strangely enough, seemingly nobody in the trillion-dollar global electronics industry is drinking the same Kool-Aid as you.  The truth is that you are just cranking out words with no meaning because it feels good.  It's the revenge of the nodding duckie.

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1314 on: March 31, 2016, 05:26:21 AM »
This is for all you edgy resonance rebels to draw inspiration from.

Dig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZuFq4CfRR8&spfreload=10

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1315 on: March 31, 2016, 07:17:54 AM »
Brad:

If there is "much more research and information on combustion resonance research" then how come the only link you could come up with talked about the undesirable effects of any kind of resonance associated with combustion in a cylinder?  Right now I am suspecting that you tried to find something and thought that you struck pay-dirt, but you didn't really read through it.  I am sure there is a ton of research on combustion in a piston, but you are going to have to prove with good links that there is "combustion resonance research" to convince me.

MileHigh

I will dig up some more info for you ASAP.
Like I said, there is truth in what you say about unwanted resonance. But that truth also dismisses your claim about there being no resonancs what so ever within the internals of the ICE ir self.
They use information gathered around these resonant effect to increase the efficiency of the ICE.


Brad

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1316 on: March 31, 2016, 09:56:18 AM »
while this is interesting and all, History seems to side with Milehigh on this one.

It was discovered in the days of early locomotive trains,
when 4-cylinder Sterling engines were being used to ship goods across the country

the resonant frequency of the combustion chamber
(think of it as the tube of a pipe organ)
results in an uncontrollable vibration that shook the entire train to pieces.
every since then, engines were designed NOT to do this.
from the intake, to the stroke distance, the explosion time, to the exhaust.
This timing is intentionally designed to NOT be resonant with the combustion chamber.
Otherwise, the standing wave would make the engines RPM unpredictable,
and cause unwanted vibrations at the resonant frequency, throughout the entire vehicle.

This is just one form of resonance that can occur (the primary one) within an ICE.
there are also, resonances that can occur within the drive-belt system.
diameters of pulleys, spinning masses, tension, and a tiny wobble in one of the pulleys,
at just the right rpm, you can shake the engine on its' mounts!

there are also resonances that can occur within the exhaust system,
as it pertains to RPM, back-pressure, lengths and diameters of the pipes, etc.
one of the functions of the muffler/cat is to restrict flow to prevent resonance.
full resonance resulted in a violent 'sputtering' of the exhaust
while half-wave created a vacuum in the exhaust manifold that decreased the overall power of the engine.
or even back-firing
cars that remove these components can sometimes experience this.

Now, half the bore of your engine, squared, times pi,
which is coincidentally, the displacement, as well as the volume of the resonant standing wave...
is a frequency in the Ghz range.
so the resonance you are incurring is the 6th lower harmonic.
or rather, the 6th higher harmonic of the engines RPM can be resonant with the combustion cylinder.
[this is unwanted]

I said that both ways, so everyone gets it.
I like to think of these things as being transfluent, like a musical scale.
going up or down to infinity and the infinitesimal.
then all I have to keep track of is at what point it goes from a multiple, to a divisor.

Some people, because of education or occupation, are trained to only go up, or only down respectively.

If you think about the frequency of the explosions,
with respect to the volume of gas exiting during the exhaust part of the cycle
and the volume of tube this gas will occupy during the amount of time before the next gush comes out.
a resonance in this volume of the pipe will do nothing good for the engine cycle,
because it is post-exhaust.
It can either evacuate the chamber very quickly, or it can restrict such from occurring.
If either of these conditions exceed engine tolerances, it causes problems.

Resonance may help push the exhaust out the end of the tailpipe, and I guess in some abstract way it can help
with propulsion (pulsejet?)
but I would hardly consider that to be an "efficiency gain", when considering the eventual replacement
of rubber mounts, and weld-points.

Now, if we consider a resonance in the intake part of the engine,
perhaps the periodicity of pulses from the fuel pump,
with respect to the intakes of the cylinders
this could result in a decrease in restrictive flow losses from tank to engine
meaning less "load" on the fuel pump,
perhaps there is an RPM, which your fuel pump works more efficiently.
how much of the cars fuel usage is attributed to the pump? not much.....
But this does give futile credence to an ICE resonance discussion.

[Then I said to myself:
 "self - you just said to them that resonance was a bad thing, then showed them a way that it could help!"
  and myself said to me "No, you just got turned around at the alternator".]

the alternator!?!
This operates desirably at a self resonant frequency,. the manufacturer told us so.....
can we drive at an RPM, that our alternator operates the best at?
yes, when the A/C clutch is not engaged, you can generally notice a brightening of your dash lights
within a certain RPM range.

it is usually between 2 and 3,000 or so, when the secondary coil is fully saturated, and the belt is spinning at just the right speed.

Then we get to resonance in the tires/wheels.......   let's not waste our time, its just Bad...

Now,. we can go through all of the systems within car, or motorcycle, or gocart, or lawnmower,
and find different scenarios where resonance may help or hinder operation.
But it is impossible for all of these frequencies to be resonant together.
you may have one, or another, at different rpms.
it all seems like a pointless argument, in general you don't want resonances in an ICE,
and if you did manage to achieve one that was helpful, you have to keep your vehicle at that RPM
to sustain the effect....

drive 55 Mph, and only on cold days.
you will get the best MPG :)








sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1317 on: March 31, 2016, 10:16:01 AM »
Yes Cavity resonance would seem a path to results.
your friend Robby squeezing 1HP for every 2CC's of displacement with a Huge standing wave.

here is a very simple Cavity resonance device which has always tickled My Fancy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZoiY3FvxKo

That doesn't belong to them.
This was part of a set of experiments done by a scientist named Peter Davey
Physical acoustic vibrations simulate the effect caused electromagnetically by your microwave oven.
the larger  sphere shown here, is a container, holding the water.
the "heater" is a smaller sphere inside, of a specific diameter.
Peter worked on this technology for the later of the last 20 years of his life.
it got media attention in 2008, (he was 91 or 92 then)
but still able to explain how it works in great detail.

its quite simple, but so complex no one understands it.
a standing wave is created inside the sphere, which causes it to physically vibrate like a speaker.
the water vibrates at the same freq, which causes it to heat up.

you can't see it in this (hijacked) video, because its inside the thing that is shown,
which is just a tank of water.


Johan_1955

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1318 on: March 31, 2016, 01:51:36 PM »
Wow wee, if you put air into a cylinder under pressure it helps you get more air into the cylinder and therefore you can put more fuel into the cylinder for a bigger bang.  That's really amazing out-of-the-box thinking that the PTB don't want you to know about.  But the actual engine itself, the pistons, the valves, the camshaft, the crankcase, the ignition, etc, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with resonance.

And then you roll out the pistol shrimp for the 30th time - which has nothing to do with resonance.

Than why more joule on a spark-plug is not always better?

When the Plasma-Ingition builders, are doing measurements than they will agree: That a certain fuel needs a certain spark! ;-))

Johan_1955

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #1319 on: March 31, 2016, 01:59:43 PM »
It's worthwhile to point out the truth, and reject wishful thinking and fantasy talk.  We are adults and not children watching a cartoon.  WITTS and Ainslie are fantasy junk, and the WITTS organization is just a front for sucking money out of people.  Posting your resonance fantasies and stating them like they are true facts is simply ridiculous.  It's the same reason that people spend $100 on a flashlight that supposedly "never needs recharging" and in reality it doesn't work.  It looks like Orbo Girl has stopped posting her weekly updates for her cell phone that "never needs recharging."  At least have the courage to speak the truth among yourselves.  If you make a claim that is out of the ordinary then prove it.

The "Red Card" should be the "Red Truth Card."  Forget your MIB fantasies.  I played the truth card, this is not the Flintstones.

Wow, so defensive, your typing like a: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatling_gun

Not sharp, but just random, every is your enemy: Bedini, Dollard, what did you say about Cristal-Meth?

So many need for compensating, can be: Lonely, balcony to low, .................. ?

Please and Real, come here for a month's or 2, welcome if you have the .............. or nuts!

Next take: RA, now some other engine (electric) on the move, yep retired, you still not?