Author Topic: THERMODYNAMICS WILL NOT APPLY FOR A ALL MAGNET MOTOR (Read 13207 times)

tournamentdan · « **on:** April 11, 2009, 03:57:43 AM »

In the last couple years as I do research to come up with a O-U motor I keep getting shut down by people and that darn thermodynamics law. I allways hear and see other people trying the same thing but they can not explain why they think that their motor will work. Well for all the dreamer's, here you go. Thermodynamic law is fine for a kinetic wheel, electric motor, and combustion motor because they all consume energy. It will not apply for a all magnet motor because it will not use up any energy it has. If you use rare earth magnets, they will in there life time only lose ten percent of there strength and that is if they do not get to hot or hit with a hard impact. So the energy is allways there and will not be used up by other magnets passing by. There is one law that trumps thermodynamics and that is resistance. I can not tell you the true meaning but this is how I define resistance. "Any and all objects will travel in the path of the least amount of resistance" So what would a magnet motor have, a whole lot of resistance. The only trick is to get and keep more resistance on one side of the magnet that is going to move than the other. The energy is there to move the shaft of a motor, and it will not use up or weaken the magnets. We only have to put the puzzle together correctly.

Low-Q · « **Reply #1 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:26:25 AM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on April 11, 2009, 03:57:43 AM

In the last couple years as I do research to come up with a O-U motor I keep getting shut down by people and that darn thermodynamics law. I allways hear and see other people trying the same thing but they can not explain why they think that their motor will work. Well for all the dreamer's, here you go. Thermodynamic law is fine for a kinetic wheel, electric motor, and combustion motor because they all consume energy. It will not apply for a all magnet motor because it will not use up any energy it has. If you use rare earth magnets, they will in there life time only lose ten percent of there strength and that is if they do not get to hot or hit with a hard impact. So the energy is allways there and will not be used up by other magnets passing by. There is one law that trumps thermodynamics and that is resistance. I can not tell you the true meaning but this is how I define resistance. "Any and all objects will travel in the path of the least amount of resistance" So what would a magnet motor have, a whole lot of resistance. The only trick is to get and keep more resistance on one side of the magnet that is going to move than the other. The energy is there to move the shaft of a motor, and it will not use up or weaken the magnets. We only have to put the puzzle together correctly.

Look at magnetism as a form of potential energy. It has been used energy to magnetize the magnet. The magnet stays in that "position" permanently - or at least are demagnetized very slowly.

It is just like charging a capacitor. The voltage stays there for ever unless you decharge it.

Lift an object 1 meter up, upon a table. It will stay there forever until someone remove the table.

Well, for magnetism, as long the stored energy isnt used, no energy or work can be taken out.
For the capacitor; As long nobdy discharge it, it will not do work.
For the object; There is no work done as long the object stays in the same hight.

Magnetism isnt energy, but potential energy. As long this potential enery doesnt change, it will not be able to do work. It will do useful work only if it means the magnet are demagnetized fast enough.

So there you go. All three examples are conservative as long there is no change done in the system. You can therfor not be able to make a working magnet motor without demagnetizing the magnets relatively fast.

That simple.

Br.

Vidar

gravityblock · « **Reply #2 on:** April 11, 2009, 11:37:33 AM »

Quote from: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 10:26:25 AM

Magnetism isnt energy, but potential energy. As long this potential enery doesnt change, it will not be able to do work. It will do useful work only if it means the magnet are demagnetized fast enough.

So there you go. All three examples are conservative as long there is no change done in the system. You can therfor not be able to make a working magnet motor without demagnetizing the magnets relatively fast.

That simple.

Br.

Vidar

I don't understand this line of thinking. A changing magnetic field causes electrons to move along a conductor. Why does it matter if you have a windmill turn the magnets to cause a change in the magnetic field, which causes electrons to move for energy, or if you come up with an unique way to have a magnet to cause a change in another magnet's magnetic field, which would cause electrons to move for energy? Why would the magnets not demagnetize with the windmill wheel, but it would demagnetize with a magnet wheel?

It doesn't matter what causes the magnetic field to change, weather it's another magnet, wind, water, solar, steam, coal, etc.

Paul-R · « **Reply #3 on:** April 11, 2009, 01:36:01 PM »

Thermodynamics is the science of heat engines (thermo and dynamo being Greek for heat and movement). And the laws of thermodynamics work well in the design of gas turbines, internal combustion engines etc. Even so, the Second Law has never been proved, and outside of heat engines, has been disproved.

Thermodynamics has no role in the design of magnetically driven systems.

tournamentdan · « **Reply #4 on:** April 11, 2009, 02:18:00 PM »

Quote from: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 10:26:25 AM

Look at magnetism as a form of potential energy. It has been used energy to magnetize the magnet. The magnet stays in that "position" permanently - or at least are demagnetized very slowly.

It is just like charging a capacitor. The voltage stays there for ever unless you decharge it.

Lift an object 1 meter up, upon a table. It will stay there forever until someone remove the table.

Well, for magnetism, as long the stored energy isnt used, no energy or work can be taken out.
For the capacitor; As long nobdy discharge it, it will not do work.
For the object; There is no work done as long the object stays in the same hight.

Magnetism isnt energy, but potential energy. As long this potential enery doesnt change, it will not be able to do work. It will do useful work only if it means the magnet are demagnetized fast enough.

So there you go. All three examples are conservative as long there is no change done in the system. You can therfor not be able to make a working magnet motor without demagnetizing the magnets relatively fast.

That simple.

Br.

Vidar

tournamentdan · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2009, 02:42:36 PM »

Rare Earth magnets have a high resistance to demagnetization, unlike most other types of magnets. They will not lose their magnetization around other magnets or if dropped. They will however, begin to lose strength if they are heated above their maximum operating temperature, which is 176Â°F (80Â°C) for standard N grades. They will completely lose their magnetization if heated above their Curie temperature, which is 590Â°F (310Â°C) for standard N grade. Rare Earth magnets will not use or lose energy if other magnets are close therefor the potential energy is in the resistance of the magnets pushing off of each other. The only energy in which a magnet motor will make is kinetic and it will not consume the kinetic energy. What ever you intend to drive with the motor will use some of the kinetic energy.

tournamentdan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2009, 12:54:19 AM »

Quote from: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 10:26:25 AM

Look at magnetism as a form of potential energy. It has been used energy to magnetize the magnet. The magnet stays in that "position" permanently - or at least are demagnetized very slowly.

It is just like charging a capacitor. The voltage stays there for ever unless you decharge it.

I am sorry Q but you are way off on this line of thinking. Yes you put energy into a rare earth magnet to make it, but that magnet will not consume that energy to push another mag away. It only consumes energy so it can stay a magnet, and at a very slow rate, one percent per ten years. So the potential energy is not inside the magnet but it is the resistance between two or more rare earth magnets. That is also why a magnet motor will never be labled as a perpetual motion machine because it will eventually loose it's strength a couple hundred years down the line. Which is good enough for me.

utilitarian · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2009, 03:43:28 AM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on May 06, 2009, 12:54:19 AM

I am sorry Q but you are way off on this line of thinking. Yes you put energy into a rare earth magnet to make it, but that magnet will not consume that energy to push another mag away. It only consumes energy so it can stay a magnet, and at a very slow rate, one percent per ten years. So the potential energy is not inside the magnet but it is the resistance between two or more rare earth magnets. That is also why a magnet motor will never be labled as a perpetual motion machine because it will eventually loose it's strength a couple hundred years down the line. Which is good enough for me.

No, you completely missed Low-Q's point. He is not saying that by attracting a ferrous object, the magnet will lose magnetism. He is saying that it is not possible to draw energy from a permanent magnet motor unless there is demagnetization of the permanent magnets.

Liberty · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:08:49 AM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on May 06, 2009, 12:54:19 AM

I am sorry Q but you are way off on this line of thinking. Yes you put energy into a rare earth magnet to make it, but that magnet will not consume that energy to push another mag away. It only consumes energy so it can stay a magnet, and at a very slow rate, one percent per ten years. So the potential energy is not inside the magnet but it is the resistance between two or more rare earth magnets. That is also why a magnet motor will never be labled as a perpetual motion machine because it will eventually loose it's strength a couple hundred years down the line. Which is good enough for me.

I can find no proof that when a magnet is created, that it retains a charge or any energy from an external source. What occurs is the magnetic particles are aligned within the magnet, and the energy that was used to "magnetize" the magnet did not store within the magnet. How do we know this? Notice what magnetic poles are applied to the new magnet during the magnetization process. Does the same pole form, or the opposite pole to allow a flux path and particle alignment? I think you will find that the opposite pole forms. Use a piece of iron and a permanent magnet and test it out. If the same pole formed and stayed, it would be acting like a battery charging or a capacitor. But this is clearly not the case. Particle alignment occurred to create the magnet. The magnet therefore can not demagnetize but only become misaligned.

tournamentdan · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »

Quote from: utilitarian on May 06, 2009, 03:43:28 AM

No, you completely missed Low-Q's point. He is not saying that by attracting a ferrous object, the magnet will lose magnetism. He is saying that it is not possible to draw energy from a permanent magnet motor unless there is demagnetization of the permanent magnets.

NO I get his and your point which no matter how you put it is completely wrong. Stop thinking that once you use energy to make the magnet you can some how tap into it and use it. Two magnets pushing away from each other will not consume any energy from both magnets, it will only create kinetic energy once they start moving, so the potential energy is not inside the magnet once it is a magnet,but it is in the Resistance of two or more magnets pushing away from each other.

utilitarian · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:07:42 PM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on May 06, 2009, 03:50:57 PM

NO I get his and your point which no matter how you put it is completely wrong. Stop thinking that once you use energy to make the magnet you can some how tap into it and use it. Two magnets pushing away from each other will not consume any energy from both magnets, it will only create kinetic energy once they start moving, so the potential energy is not inside the magnet once it is a magnet,but it is in the Resistance of two or more magnets pushing away from each other.

Sorry, but no. You just have not thought it all the way through.

Look this is a pretty minor point to argue about, but the reason that a permanent magnet motor cannot work is because once you set up your magnets, that's it. The forces are in play and are not changing, and you quickly reach equilibrium.

But imagine if you can actively drain each magnet, perhaps in an alternating fashion. You could get motion then, as you do in an electromagnetic magnet motor. Until of course all the magnetism is gone.

So there you go, an example of drawing energy from a permanent magnet that involves demagnetization.

tournamentdan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:57:43 PM »

Quote from: utilitarian on May 06, 2009, 04:07:42 PM

Sorry, but no. You just have not thought it all the way through.

Look this is a pretty minor point to argue about, but the reason that a permanent magnet motor cannot work is because once you set up your magnets, that's it. The forces are in play and are not changing, and you quickly reach equilibrium.

Look I know about the equilibrium. I feel that in order for a magnet motor to work the first thing you have to do is to make a equal amount of resistance around the magnet you are trying to move,and that may not be able to happen with out a true rotary magnet(until somebody invents it) which will probably never happen. then you have to...... think of it as a wheather pattern once you achieve an equal amount of resistance on all sides next thing is to create a high pressure on one side and a low pressure on the other. It is something I am working on and waiting for custom magnets to come in. So until then I can not go into much detail about the rest.

cameron sydenham · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2009, 06:47:18 PM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on May 06, 2009, 03:50:57 PM

NO I get his and your point which no matter how you put it is completely wrong. Stop thinking that once you use energy to make the magnet you can some how tap into it and use it. Two magnets pushing away from each other will not consume any energy from both magnets, it will only create kinetic energy once they start moving, so the potential energy is not inside the magnet once it is a magnet,but it is in the Resistance of two or more magnets pushing away from each other.

dont forget the energy that is required to push the magnets together. one needs to take a broad look at the entire picture. work is done by pushing the magnets together to get your magnets to push back.
energy out will always equal energy in. in some fashion, the accountability needs to be there. wether it is c.o.e, c.o.m, newton, they all need to be acounted for.
my 2 cents.

Low-Q · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2009, 10:34:16 PM »

Quote from: tournamentdan on May 06, 2009, 12:54:19 AM

I am sorry Q but you are way off on this line of thinking. Yes you put energy into a rare earth magnet to make it, but that magnet will not consume that energy to push another mag away. It only consumes energy so it can stay a magnet, and at a very slow rate, one percent per ten years. So the potential energy is not inside the magnet but it is the resistance between two or more rare earth magnets. That is also why a magnet motor will never be labled as a perpetual motion machine because it will eventually loose it's strength a couple hundred years down the line. Which is good enough for me.

The drawback is that even if the magnetism does change, you do not change the relationship between repel or attraction force. As long these forces are relatively equal all the time at any given distance, you cannot take energy out of it. Because it will consume as much energy to escape an attracting magnet as it gained while approaching it - no matter how weak or strong the magnets are.
If the magnetic field did change mid way - only temporary, there would be more force at any given distance when approaching, than the force at the same given distances when escaping. The way an ordinary electric motor works - because the magnetic strength do change all the time at approperiate timing. You cannot do that with permanent magnets.
Any attempt with shielding will affect other magnets as well accordingly, so no change in magnetic field is taking place no matter how you design a magnet motor.

It is hard to let these magnet motor ideas let go, I know I have trouble doing it myself even with the knowledge that it will never work.

Vidar

tournamentdan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2009, 02:21:53 PM »

Quote from: cameron sydenham on May 06, 2009, 06:47:18 PM

dont forget the energy that is required to push the magnets together. one needs to take a broad look at the entire picture. work is done by pushing the magnets together to get your magnets to push back.
energy out will always equal energy in. in some fashion, the accountability needs to be there. wether it is c.o.e, c.o.m, newton, they all need to be acounted for.
my 2 cents.

It seems that I am the only one taking a broad look at the whole picture. I understand that there needs to be energy to push your magnets together, but that is a entirely different motor than mine. It seems that everybody has come to the same point and decided that it is impossible to go any farther. I feel that everybodys problem is part of the solution. everyone wants to think that once you achieve a equal amount of resistance on one side of a magnets pole that you should through in the towel. No there are two things you have to do to make a O-U magnet motor and that is the first. Second part is to create more resistace on one side than the other. That is not necessarily done by making some material that can shield a magnetic flux. The answers are there, but we can not be confined to the same old thinking.

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Author Topic: THERMODYNAMICS WILL NOT APPLY FOR A ALL MAGNET MOTOR (Read 13207 times)

tournamentdan

THERMODYNAMICS WILL NOT APPLY FOR A ALL MAGNET MOTOR

Low-Q

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gravityblock

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Paul-R

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tournamentdan

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tournamentdan

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tournamentdan

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utilitarian

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Liberty

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tournamentdan

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utilitarian

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tournamentdan

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cameron sydenham

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tournamentdan

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