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Author Topic: Resonnant circuits in cascade.  (Read 64873 times)

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2006, 08:53:36 AM »
Yes, resonant stages is the way to go. Utility companies occasionally burn up transformers from phenomenon called
ferroresonance. This is covered in Basic Oscillators by Gotlieb. Under certain circuit conditions, steel likes to
resonate at twice the input frequency, also it expands and contracts like a piezo. It also picks up harmonics of
the fundamental and that causes a power surge within a whole range of frequencies, not just one, that smokes
the transformers. Yes that's free energy, more than we put in. The gain from resonance isn't the same as stepping
up a transformer. With the latter there are trade-offs. Resonance is only virtual power but it can be made into real
power with cascade stages and secondaries, and yes the antennae is our source frequency from which we "suck"
all the power we need. There are radio experts who just can't grasp secondaries-parallel tanks in cascade. They think
in terms of filter networks which is all wrong in the wiring for our purposes. Start with high frequency in the antennae
and step it down in each stage. There is twice as much power in a 100Hz signal as a 50hz signal. Step it down and
extract the power.

I think all Henry Moray's rectifier/detector/"valve" did was keep the power flowing down the antennae in one direction, not
radiating it out during half a cycle. He used a "tribo-luminescent zinc" which could be simply zinc sulfide used to coat
cathode ray tubes. So break an old b/w TV or spent flourescent tube and harvest your powder. The detector probably
also helped establish the frequency, as the accrued input static from his wire antennae, rythmically jumped the phosphor.
Maybe there was an electronic cascade effect in the phosphor that increased the total electron flow and strength of the signal.
I use to think his cold electricity was from hole flow, but think I figured that out, is too easy.

Take a transformer. Observe the laminated steel plates. Now think, couldn't a transformer also be made of steel wire
coiled, with copper coils wrapped around the steel wire? Now your wire core transformer still works, just like a laminated plate
transformer, but here's the trick; the two ends of wire from the steel coil are left open! In fact they concentrate magnetic
energy racing up and down the wire in AC fashion at the same rate as your input into your copper coils! Now magnetism is cold... has
no temperature to speak of. Now here's a question worthy of experiment; what if we wrap another steel coil and connect the leads
from the first steel coil to the second. (remember, the first steel coil has copper coil primaries and secondaries.) Will the magnetic
field in the steel wire convey to the second coil? If yes, will field strength be lost or diminished in the first coil? If not, can we wrap
copper coils on the second steel coil and get twice or more bang for our buck? To answer that question, take two cylinder shaped
magnets N-S attracted and insert similar sized steel plugs between them. Now you have one longer magnet. In fact increase the
number of steel plugs until your magnet has reached the length of infinity. Has the field strength decreased as you increased the
magnet's effective size? Not Really! The number of field lines is the same, but you've increased the magnet's surface area/length and
can pick up a lot more stuff with the same field strength!

Point is it's possible we'll get not just the energy we put into the copper coils, but magnetic current from the steel coils
to boot. That magnetic current could act or behave like cold electricity. And because it's true oscillating magnetic current,
(just like occurs in laminated plates), it could be converted back to regular electricity again, to heat irons and such, but better
to use the magnetic current for light bulbs, computers and things you want to run cool. 8)

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2006, 10:06:50 AM »
If I get what you are saying... then I would say that steel wire with copper coiled around it...  would... I dunno.  :-\

If steel will work as a core - that is if it will add inductance to the coil - then it would not be as good as iron, right?  You can magnetize steel wire... so off the top of my head, I'd say it would add inductance.  You'd have to laminate it with something to keep it from draining current, I'm sure.  Even an iron core should be laminated to prevent this - right?

Wrapping that inductor (the copper coil with steel wire coil) around another core of iron would... I dunno again. :)
But I think that the difference... between a coil of copper wire wound straight around an iron core - and - a "coil" of copper "coiled" around a core... that would be interesting.  :)
The magnetic field coming off a copper wire is in a paticular direction by anyone's model... and the configuration change might have some interesting affects on the iron core.  OR maybe not.  And if it does... it might be bad. :)  unless you believe theories that say the current in the copper causes a standing wave that draws in magnetic energy... then the effect might be very good.
I better stop rambling until I do a little research, or the EEs will flame me :)

About the phosphorous... IF you assume "stray capacitance" on a coil... I think maybe the phosphorous would lower the amount... or eliminate it maybe?  It might actually put you somewhere between the results you see from a coil and what you would see from using a copper pipe as a coil... this would be bad.  Right?

I've been up for 30 hours.  So maybe I'll take a better look at this later. :)

I have been thinking of LC circuits and driving one off the other and it would seem that maybe voltage... and therefore current would build and build in the first with a steady supply... and that may power a secondary circuit with some loss - but who's counting if the source is free. :)  But if this works... then what to do with all the excess before it melts the wires?  I probably only *wish* I had such a problem, eh?

I need to read some more of that first year EE book so I am more confident in the theory.  But I have been sidetracked now with the link to all the scanned tube manuals from the 30's.  All I can think about is what Tesla must have been using for his device.  :D

Thanks again - and peace!!

Thanks again for the input.  :) 

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2006, 03:58:00 PM »
Hi Elvis.

Hey man, it's fun to think one's way around the textbooks, what they never got around to describe or consider.
 :)

If I were doing the resonant cascade thing, I'd be sure that each stage was made of bigger and burlier wire,
just to be safe. On the other hand if one were using the magnetic current from the steel wire instead of
electron flow from the copper wire, there's little danger of burning anything up. I recall from reading his book,
Moray's device had multiple stages and one could get more power out of the device by tapping into previous
stages. In fact the only limit on power he was able to draw, was determined by the loads. Wouldn't it be neat
if resonance weren't even necessary? -- just cascaded stages of wire core transformers? We could theoretically
draw magnetic current flow from every steel wire stage! Sure, laminate it if you like. Might want to do that
anyway to keep it from rusting. Steels have different hysterisis properties. The same design selection factors
might apply.

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2006, 02:12:00 PM »
There is twice as much power in a 100Hz signal as a 50hz signal.

If that is true, then why isn't there infinitely more power in a 60 Hz signal than in DC?

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2006, 02:15:04 PM »
Some of Faraday's and Henry's earliest experiments with inductors were constructed like this - with a donut shaped coil of copper stitched around by fine iron wire to make a torus.  There is nothing of any significance at the ends of the iron/steel wire, because the magnetic flux would rather leak between adjacent turns of the iron/steel than between the ends.

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2006, 02:23:19 PM »
Utility companies occasionally burn up transformers from phenomenon called
ferroresonance. This is covered in Basic Oscillators by Gotlieb. Under certain circuit conditions, steel likes to
resonate at twice the input frequency, also it expands and contracts like a piezo. It also picks up harmonics of
the fundamental and that causes a power surge within a whole range of frequencies, not just one, that smokes
the transformers. Yes that's free energy, more than we put in.

Have you ever seen this?  It does occur, because of magnetostriction of the steel when the transformer is overdriven, but stops AS SOON AS THE 60 Hz IS REMOVED.  The power surge occurs because the core saturates, but the power comes FROM THE GENERATOR SUPPLYING THE VOLTAGE.  There is NO FREE ENERGY here, otherwise the heating of the core would continue without the voltage applied.

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2006, 02:26:25 PM »
There are radio experts who just can't grasp secondaries-parallel tanks in cascade.

Yes, and they are unemployed because they can't make their transmitters work properly.

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2006, 08:12:44 PM »
magnetoelastic: (you said)

Quote
Yes, and they are unemployed because they can't make their transmitters work properly.
Then they are hardly experts.

Quote
If that is true, then why isn't there infinitely more power in a 60 Hz signal than in DC?

Not infinitely, it relates to both power input AND frequency. Please; there are plenty of references out there that relate
power to frequency.

Quote
Some of Faraday's and Henry's earliest experiments with inductors were constructed like this - with a donut shaped coil of
copper stitched around by fine iron wire to make a torus.  There is nothing of any significance at the ends of the iron/steel wire,
because the magnetic flux would rather leak between adjacent turns of the iron/steel than between the ends.

Gee, I thought magflux preferred iron to air at least 100:1. And it loves COPPER almost as much. Neither am I certain from your
description or lack thereof, that the experiment(s) are the same. (Not discouraged.)

Quote
Have you ever seen this?  It does occur, because of magnetostriction of the steel when the transformer is overdriven, but stops
AS SOON AS THE 60 Hz IS REMOVED.  The power surge occurs because the core saturates, but the power comes FROM THE
GENERATOR SUPPLYING THE VOLTAGE.  There is NO FREE ENERGY here, otherwise the heating of the core would continue
without the voltage applied.

First off, the transformer doesn't necessarily need to be overdriven from a power stand-point for ferro-resonance to occur.
Second, the excess is above and beyond what the source is supplying, but seems to originate in the ferro core material itself.
(Although air-core transformer coils can smoke too, if the power levels exceed the component's ability to carry, AT RESONANCE.)
There are a few tutorials on the web written for utility engineers, to deal with the problem. Even THEY don't claim to know
where the extra surge comes from so I'm curious where you get your information. But given what we do know, I'd say
the excess current is from transients (harmonics of) the fundamental signal, which should teach you something about waves.
We have NO INTENTION of removing our input signal. We are interested in getting more energy out than we put in, not
"something from nothing;" (please read carefully because they are not the same thing.) Rigorously, it's pretty hard to start
with nothing anyway, since physics has proven that the universe (even empty space) is full of "stuff." There's some oscillations
even at absolute zero, and every circuit even lacking a power source, is being hit by white noise/background radiations. You
need to update your paradigms. Seems like you have some pretty purist and anal definitions of what "free" (as in free energy)
means. Freedom is a condition. It needs some-thing to apply the condition to. Nothing (no-thing) is a non-entity to which the
condition of freedom would make no sense. Free energy is energy unbound, zipping about, able to be collected any number of
ways, by collectors, antennaes, induction, resonance, etc.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 09:47:53 PM by thrival »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2006, 10:36:31 PM »
Both of you guys are right to a degree... and basically agree. :)  It's the language and the terms that get everyone miixed up.  Like the earlier post arguing about voltage vs power vs energy... ;)  But with electronics, the basic theory is full of crazy shit that makes no sense.
i.e. - calling negative charge "negative" just because it was the accepted term at the time.
And - does current flow from - to + or reversed?  Depends on whether you use conventional flow or electron flow.  And actually there is a force coming from either both directions - or neither, if we believe Bearden.

A/C will have less total power than DC at a given voltage... cause DC is 0Hz A/C.  A DC generator is composed of multiple coils that each give a cycle of power - combining these pulses in series creates a constant flow.
It makes sense that higher frequency would have more power... but I will defer to someone with math skills, or until I can study at it myself. :)
The one thing I think is certain though, is that higher frequency translates into a faster change in voltage... and that means more current on your capacitor.  So higher frequency would seem a better choice on the surface.

However... IF there is an aether... and if it can be tapped by resonating at 12Hz...  then a higher frequency would just be a harmonic and would provide less voltage... right?  But.... by using the lower frequency we would get more of the signal... so this is still something that has to be considered.

About the steel wire... while it is true that magnetic fields prefer metal to the air...  but it is not going to flow out of the end of the steel and into the iron core.  But you would get some magnetic field into the core from the steel being around it.  But I would think it would just be a redistribution and not help.
But... the configuration is still a curiousiity.  Being would in a coil itself - without the additional iron core... would it's magnetic field become stronger?  Is there such a thing as magnetic induction??
I think it would be a good experiment.  Especially using some material in the core and around the coil that would shield magnetic fields.
Or at least a core of that material, and a secondary of just copper around the outside.

As far as the cause of transformers burning up... I'd say no one knows for sure. :)   Tesla said it was so... and Einstein said it could not be ruled out... and now quantum mechanics requires it.  Considering what the aether would do to the oil industry... no wonder people who ordinarily resist change were so quick to accept that aether was just a fairy tale.

I appreciate all the posts in this thread.  Sometimes I am glad to hear someone correct me.  :)  But I will always reserve the right to be skeptical until I see it for myself.

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2006, 02:07:14 AM »
Elvis:

Higher the frequency at a common V/I input, the greater the power out. E = hf (where h is Planck's constant
and f is the frequency.) You can see and prove it for yourself another way by simply CASCADING RESONANT STAGES (parallel
resonance) IF you do it correctly. It's not rocket science but it CAN power ...starships. Resonance gain is very well documented
in radio electronics, toasted transformers is proof. A parallel resonant tank has the HIGHEST INPUT IMPEDANCE at resonance;
in other words, you can BARELY squeeze any power in! AND YET the parallel resonant tank coil/transformer WILL SMOKE if
under-rated, due to the VERY HIGH power levels oscillating through it, which are "several orders of magnitude", i.e. FAR GREATER
than input. That IS your documented proof, you can find it yourself, in textbooks, on the web. THAT IS your proof of... magnetic
induction. I told you how and why. "No free lunch" crowd will continue poking at it with a stick. If you're waiting for someone to show
you, don't hold your breath; I see through people's motives, don't care enough what people think to show anybody. That's not how
discovery happens. You need to prove it for yourself. You have to understand that big egos simply can't handle missing something so
simple; it threatens their high-priest status., not to mention the nuclear & fossil fuel industry. They've had plenty of time to discover
what's right under their noses. Consider that they have a vested interest NOT TO SEE certain things. Egotism isn't just a form, but
the cause of... insanity. That and laziness will prevent a person from learning anything. No pity here.


You said:

Quote
About the steel wire... while it is true that magnetic fields prefer metal to the air...  but it is not going to flow out of the end of the
steel and into the iron core.  But you would get some magnetic field into the core from the steel being around it.  But I would think it
would just be a redistribution and not help. But... the configuration is still a curiousiity.  Being would in a coil itself - without the
additional iron core... would it's magnetic field become stronger?  Is there such a thing as magnetic induction?? I think it would be a
good experiment.  Especially using some material in the core and around the coil that would shield magnetic fields.
Or at least a core of that material, and a secondary of just copper around the outside.

I'm not sure you get my configuration, intent or objective but that's fine either way. You're asking questions the answers to which
are obvious and easy to find. I wouldn't recommend magnetic shielding though; that'll just suck flux that you otherwise want to
concentrate in the steel wire core itself. What you want is HIGHLY CONCENTRATED, HIGH PRESSURE magnetic flux coming out your
steel wire. As with copper coils, intuition and common sense would suggest, is related to thickness, permitivity, number of turns.

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2006, 01:17:00 PM »
I think it is time to experiment with tank circuits.  I'll have to order some materials to start.  I'll let you know what I see.  :)

Peace!!

Z4K

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2006, 09:45:59 AM »
magnetoelastic:

Give up mate.  They're never going to believe you.  After all, "the textbooks are hiding the truth!!!~~!!~!11" :o

Now excuse me.  I've got this fan driven by a generator driven by a windmill driven by the fan that I have to work on...

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2006, 05:54:07 PM »
Obviously there's something missing.  Unless you can explain how a 100 lb man can lift rocks weighing 20 tons overnight alone without equipment...  Wanna take a guess? 
And I guess Edison thought he had something right too?  Tesla and his damn wacky alternating current.

But seriously - what's your point and why are you here?

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2006, 08:42:04 PM »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2006, 12:32:27 AM »
Meyl is smarter than Bearden that's for sure.  Eveyone knows that Germans are better engineers ;)  - or at least the USA knows this... after WWII we split the engineers with the Russians.

For anyone reading - who can read German... I have many texts by Meyl - mostly in German.  I can attach them here.