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Author Topic: Resonnant circuits in cascade.  (Read 54738 times)

Offline Robert

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Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« on: January 28, 2006, 03:22:47 AM »

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not possible to have one resonnant circuit excite a second resonnant circuit and have a substancial gain in power? So in essence have  a high energy generator with only a minimal power input, such as a microcircuit multivibrator acting as initial source.
 
  I saw a radio shack circuit using a reversed 6/120 transformer  through a diode to generate a high voltage, the frequency source was a 555 timer.

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Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« on: January 28, 2006, 03:22:47 AM »

Offline IcyBlue

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2006, 11:11:00 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not possible to have one resonnant circuit excite a second resonnant circuit
cascading resonant circuits is something that is done since the first day of radio technics. It has the effect that the bandwidth of the filter network is reduced by every single stage and the gain of the network is increased. BUT

Quote
and have a substancial gain in power?
resonant circuits have absolutely nothing to do with gaining power. Gain of a filter network means either gain in voltage or current. You can not have both at the same time, because of the law of energy conservation the total power in the system (U*I*cos phi) must be constant.
Resonant circuits at best can only be a means of tapping energy. They can not do this on their own. Even if you have a negative differential resistance driven reactive circuit, you still have the positive static resistance of the circuit that is throwing away all energy you might have gained; bringing the cop again below one.

Quote
So in essence have? a high energy generator with only a minimal power input, such as a microcircuit multivibrator acting as initial source.
This is physically impossible. I suggest reading a good book about filter networks and RF design - then the fog is starting to lift ;)
 
Quote
I saw a radio shack circuit using a reversed 6/120 transformer? through a diode to generate a high voltage, the frequency source was a 555 timer.
This is a simple step-up converter, also known as 'inverter'. Although they produce a high voltage, they don't produce power. The current that is available at the high voltage side is significantly lower than the current that must be fed in.

PS: reactive resonant circuits indeed do suck energy from their surrounding - this is how radio works. The best way to demonstrate this is with a dipmeter. It indeed is puzzling how a circuit that is not even connected to the dipmeter steals its energy and this is the way this device works. It displays the energy that has been stolen from it - indicating a resonant circuit in it's surrounding. But at the same time the 'parasitic' circuit comes alive by the stolen energy, it in turn radiates energy off.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 11:27:20 AM by IcyBlue »

Offline thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 05:01:58 PM »
icyblue:

I'm sorry but I must disagree with you in part. Any good online electronics tutorial will
tell you that power increases anywhere from 10 to 1,000X in a parallel resonant tank,
at the resonant frequency. V is what the source imposes while I increases by exponential
amounts, and those immense currents can even increase V as well.  At the same time
input impedance is at its highest, in other words we can barely squeeze any energy into
our oscillating tank. Now it's true that these oscillating currents are confined to the tank,
but a secondary coil loosely or otherwise coupled to the tank inductor will carry that power
over to itself. The primary-secondary relationship can be 1:1. This is not a filtering
application so you shouldn't compare it to that. This is exactly what tesla coils are and
do. A primary resonant tank coupled to a secondary resonant tank steps up POWER,
There is no V vs. I trade-off. This is the big and open 'secret' tesla knew. It's right there in
the textbooks but ignored, overlooked, unused, but for filters and fetching in signals.
These aren't the only application for which resonance can be applied however, as tesla
coils prove. A cascade of resonant stages can suck in enough energy to power starships.
I'll admit this can be an a embarrassing fact to admit if one has worked in the field for
years and still missed it. I remember the first day in tech college, basic electricity, our
instructor told us: "You can't get something for nothing." That is a lie, a misstatement
he learned from instructors before him. The fact is nature IS a free lunch. The same
way of bringing in a signal (via resonance) can amplify that signal without limit. And we
can generate any frequencies we choose artificially; we are not subject to some special
vibratory rate the cosmos decides to shower down at 3 am.

Given the fact and demonstrable proof of resonance, it sort of makes rotating wheels
like the testatika a bit passe. I mean the wheel isn't really the secret. Over-efficient
electrostatic motors are easy to build. The cascade diode employed is interesting and
another OU device, but resonance is where the real action is. The testatika is a wonderful
demonstration of several free energy principles while keeping those same principles
hidden; the principles of which however, are in the public domain.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 11:35:37 PM by thrival »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 05:01:58 PM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 10:03:52 PM »
The amount of energy applied would oscillate around a tank circuit until was lost to resistance.  This is not multiplying power.

As far as resonance - a given cap and inductor making up a tank circuit would resonate at one natural frequency.  Meaning that if you have a var. cap. - you would tune it, and at a certain point reach the frequency that would be perfect to oscillate with min. loss.  Right?

Are you saying that a using the inductor as a primary to a secondary circuit would generate current in that secondary circuit without any additional loss on the tank circuit?

Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 10:33:42 PM »
After further investigation....   ::)

What about series LC circuits??

In series inductive/capacitive circuits... When a state of resonance is reached (capacitive and inductive reactances equal), the two impedances cancel each other out and the total impedance drops to zero.
-and-
The total impedance of a series LC circuit approaches zero as the power supply frequency approaches resonance. 
-and-
Extremely high voltages can be formed across the individual components of series LC circuits at resonance, due to high current flows and substantial individual component impedances....

Thus... a series LC circuit using a 10uF cap and a 100mH induction coil will resonate at 159.155Hz.  If the incoming cycle of A/C is 159.155Hz - you can expect impedance across the LC circuit to drop to zero.
This would be a short circuit - right? Add a resistor of 1ohm and you would see a peak of 100 to 1000 volts from a 1v power supply.

Apply this to using an antenna that can receive 7.4Hz.  {or maybe any broadcast frequency} and wouldn't this set up multiply the power??
Wouldn't a secondary circuit have current induced in it?
Couldn't that current be altered to cycle at whatever rate you wanted??

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 10:33:42 PM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2006, 10:37:43 PM »
So I might answer my own question here... with the LC circuit above... the coil would not interact with a secondary coil.  So that's out...

There should be *some* way of using that power. :-\

Offline thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2006, 11:55:13 PM »
Elvis:

I'm going to go off on a tangent a bit to answer your question. Textbooks are  written
with a very negative slant. It's not that they lie outright, but phrase things in a way so
you only see half the truth and therefore don't try. Oscillations don't dampen if they are
constantly fed! And a parallel tank has such high input impedance, the amount of power
in is very small compared to the output. Will it consume some power to make it work?
Of course it will.

There seems to be a bunch of degreed experts who assert free energy must come from
nothing, no input at all. They are quite rigorous and anal 'purists.' But free energy is simply
more energy out than we put in over time. Try to do it their way will never happen, but
use what's in front of you, and the truth set you free.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2006, 11:55:13 PM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 12:09:00 AM »
That is true - a parallel LC circuit's impedance will reach infinity if the input is at the same resonant frequency.  So does that mean it will stop drawing power from the input?

So if you had an antenna tuned to the schuman resonance... and you were receiving a small amount of power... wouldn't you want to use a series LC circuit to acheive maximum output from that small source?
Wouldn't it be constantly driving the circuit?

How would you then apply that power to use?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 02:18:52 AM by Elvis Oswald »

Offline thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 05:43:25 AM »
Elvis:

There's a problem trying to predict what should or will happen from what the books
say. They seldom agree or give you all the facts, like there's a purple elephant in the
room that no one wants to talk about. For example, when we're told input impedance
reaches infinity, does that mean our circuit refuses all power we give it, even while
generating tremendous currents within itself? If yes, that can be used to advantage.
Isn't that what we want? High outputs with negligible inputs? So who's complaining?!

Filter networks are NOT the way I'd arrange it. They have their place but not for
what we're doing. Also I see circuits people design, grounded in all sorts of ways.
Why would we want to ground anything??? that's sending our energy down a
bottomless hole. Cascading is the way.

The tank coil can also be a primary winding to an iron or air core transformer. The
secondary can be part of or lead to a parallel or series tank. Tesla coils use the latter,
however I like parallel tanks for their large outputs to inputs. In fact I would cascade
them just like Robert suggests. Sometimes it takes a newbie to see things differently
from the way one has been trained. There's more than one way to do anything
and I find it amazing so few have experimented with or written about resonance
from the power amplification perspective. Resonant tanks amplify power, that's a
fact. They are not transformers but can be combined with them. Just because one
person isn't creative or clever enough to arrange his circuit correctly doesn't make a
thing impossible. You could probably build one tuned to the schuman frequency or
any other your heart desires. To say that all that energy is NOT available to you,
is ridiculous. Or to put it another way, why would the methernitha community
employ resonance in their device, if not to step up the gain? You don't need the
wheel, just the resonant tank(s). Use the output any way you choose.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:04:42 AM by thrival »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 05:43:25 AM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 06:03:39 AM »
I agree with you 100%  :)  I have taken all text with a "grain of salt" - that's for sure.

I am new to all of this.  I'm a network engineer... not an EE.  :)  I started looking at alternative fuels and after understanding the design of the internal combustion motor - I realized that it was not worth the steel it's made of.  The rotary or the "quasi-turbine" design is more efficient.  Looking into that, I discovered Tesla and that's when I realized that electricity from the atmosphere was going to be the answer.

I've been studying for a couple of months now... originally I thought it was best to only study Tesla... to know only what he knew and to avoid anything developed after him... I figure its more than likely that there has been an effort to pollute the field of study, so to speak.
But I couldn't talk to EEs without understanding more about what they are taught... and so now I am trying to get it all in my head and work out the best direction to proceed in... THEN I will start experimenting.  That is the best way, I think.

Thanks for the help.  I am about at the point of being convinced that building an antenna/ground with a tank circuit(s) to amplify that little potential into real power is worthy of time and money.

Offline thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 06:14:46 AM »
Elvis:

You could just as well use an oscillator to power everything. I used to own a fat book
of Tesla's patents and notes, written in his own words. His circuits were "all wrong"
by today's standards. He used paired capacitive coupling a lot, with shorting inductors.
Turns out that corrects power factor. Everything modern engineers do waste power.
For example, did you ever look closely at a simple voltage doubler/clamper? Once you
see and understand what they do, why would you ever use conventional rectifiers?
Everyone is so used to taking a loss, we've become biased against receiving a gain.
Look at things fresh from how they're commonly used.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 06:14:46 AM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 06:47:10 AM »
Have you heard about Marconi and other scientist running to South America?  Some say that is where the UFOs come from - some of them anyways.
Any thoughts on that?

Offline IcyBlue

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 10:48:54 AM »
In series inductive/capacitive circuits... When a state of resonance is reached (capacitive and inductive reactances equal), the two impedances cancel each other out and the total impedance drops to zero.
the reactance drops to zero, not the impedance since Z=sqrt(R^2 + X^2). So even in this case if a ideal oscillator, you would be left with the ohmic resistance.

Quote
The total impedance of a series LC circuit approaches zero as the power supply frequency approaches resonance.
a parallel circuit is sort of a closed loop series circuit; so in the PC circulate high currents at resonance, while the SC can pass through high currents at resonance. (BTW: I suggest you to use SPICE for evaluating the behaviour of them. It is a quite handy tool for evaluating circuit designs.) But even if the reactance of the L/C combination would go close to zero - what it hardly does - you are still left with the ohmic resistance  that burns your energy and damps the circuit - in addition to the energy that is lost and is radiated off the circuit. Even if you use a negative *differential* resistance element (tunnel diode, gas discharge) to undamp the circuit, the oscillation will only be sustained as long as you provide the supply voltage to it. Shut down the supply, and the oscillation will stop. If the circuit would draw energy from somewhere else - as OU circuits are supposed to do so - the oscillation would continue.

So the only way would be to get into resonance with a external, naturally occuring oscillating phenomenon of sufficient energy, i.e. natural occuring radiation. The problem is just, there are no such natural radiation sources that lie in the rage of <1000Mhz, so that a simple L/C circuit could draw energy from then. Some promising energy sources to me seem to be the conversion of radiation in and above the THz range we have not yet the technology for, or the conversion of radioactive decay.

Quote
Apply this to using an antenna that can receive 7.4Hz.  {or maybe any broadcast frequency} and wouldn't this set up multiply the power??
no, but in the proximity of a broadcast station you actually could power some lightbulbs this way. This has been done in the early days of radio by some allotment holders, until the radio company figured it out and prohibited it by a lawsuit. This was the end of their 'free energy'.

I once too was very enthusiastic about FE, but the more I learned and experimented, the more the mist lifted and the things got demystified. Even the 'cold current' phenomenon can be explained by simple thermoelectric effects (see the 'peltier element'). I've seen a lot of OU/FE websites, also from those who claim to be scientists, most of them can not even handle a simple camera to make images which are not blurred. Even the power estimations for effects which are well known - but which are unfamiliar to them - were wrong by orders of magnitude. Not just that; we also came around some 'promising technologies' which are even patented  and sound quite futuristic (no OU/FE related). We got a science project about it too - in the end it all turned out to be at least unusable. Even the in the patents claimed basic effects were wrong from the root on. So I'm very sceptic about anything.

I suggest reading the publications of the "G?DE Institut f?r Gravitationsforschung", though we have no affiliation with them. They even set of a prize of one million ? for the one who can prove antigravitation http://www.gravitation.org/Start_/Experimente/experimente.html . They also have conducted some OU/FE experiments. Obviously noone wants the million; maybe one million is not enough  ::)

I don't think we already invented everything or discovered any possible energy source, it's just that if the person in question who claims to have build a OU device shows the lack of knowledge of the basic principles of physics, I have a hard time to take him for serious. (I don't think of anyone special with this).

Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 11:20:44 AM »
Here is a link to SPICE simulations of series LC circuit.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/3.html

Offline IcyBlue

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 12:29:44 PM »
Thanks for the link. With SPICE one must keep in mind, that all is based on models, and they do not necessarily reflect the reality to 100%. The inductor models for instance mainly lack core saturation. The simulation also calculates probably with zero resistance wires. In reality you have always resistance in the wires and pins. You have loss in the magnet core and in the capacitor, thus they heat up. This all is wasting your energy, but certainly not included in the SPICE models. So SPICE is a good design tool, but the final judge remains the experiment.

(One should not underestimate the importance of wire resistance in high current applications. Even 'fat' wires can show a serious voltage drop if they are supposed to carry several amps)

You may look at LCLR-Network based induction heating designs, like this one: http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html
There is a good explanation of what is going on in resonant circuits.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 12:43:08 PM by IcyBlue »

 

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