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Author Topic: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?  (Read 20354 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Hi,

I have twisted my mind about magnet motors again, and I have been playing with Femm again.

If there is nothing wrong with Femm, I have sucessfully figured out one way to change a magnetic field in a magnet motor without using energy. A very big model in femm shows an average torque of 350 000 Nm (The rotor is 7 meters in diameter. it is however no reason why it is so big). In that model I cannot in a simple way simulate the following explanation, so the average torque is assumed correct if I'm correct about the explanations below. To you guys who don't understand it, take a quick look at the drawing attached.

Imagine this:

You have, lets say 20, narrow rod magnets. The polarity is going through length on all of them.

Take 10 magnets and put them together side by side, and let every second magnet have the oposite polarity. Now all 10 magnets will snap into eachother, but let there be a gap between them anyway. This configuration will not attract or repel another magnetic pole as every second pole is an oposite of the next one.
Take then every second magnet, 5 pcs, and push them maybe half way along the length so you now see a comb looking magnet row, where mainly the southpole or northpole are visible in both sides of the twosided "comb". Now this configuration will suddenly attract or repel another magnet.

It takes energy to make this "comb", so we need a counter force which works in an equivalent oposite way. So take the 10 magnets you got left, and place them all side by side, but now with polarity in the same direction on ALL magnets. They will feel hard to align next to eachother, but do it anyway,

Now take every second magnet and move them half way of the length - just as the first 10 magnets, and make it look just like that "comb". This time it takes energy to PREVENT the magnets from moving.

If all magnets are equal, those two forces in the two sets of magnet "combs" will work oposite of eachother. So if you mechanicly connects those two sets of magnets together, it should not take any force to alter a magnetic pole.

So now let the magnet configuration as firstly described surround a two pole round magnet (which is magnetized through diameter) as a stator magnet would do, and let the second configuration be linked to this. So now it does not take energy from the rotor to alter the magnetic pole in the "magnet comb stator". Still the rotor will chase the oposite pole in the stator, and try to escape from the equal pole behind it without any counterforce working equally against the rotor direction. That counterforce is already taken care of.

Well, attached is a model in Femm with 20 sectors of combs which is supposed to alter polarity allways 90 degrees in front and behind the magnetic pole in the rotor. Take a look at it and see what I mean about the comb-configuration on the stator (Compensator magnets are not shown). :)

The rotor in the middle is rotating counter clockwise, and I'm also looking for the very possible flaw that prevents OU in the design and idea.

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 10:24:51 PM »
Some more information, some changes from the previous post etc., + a link to a GIF-animation on the bottom of this post.

The key is to equalize the counterforce required when altering magnetic fields.
The stator magnets are altering the magnetic field by pushing and pulling pairs of magnets, which each has oposite polarity facing the rotor magnet, in order to alter the magnetic field in a way that will allways pull and push the round two pole rotormagnet, in the center, in the same direction regardless of the rotors position.
To separate two magnets in the stator this way requires a lot of force. However, the forces required to alter the statormagnet are canceled out by the oposite force 90 degrees ahead and back. So no net force, hence no energy, is required to alter the magnetic fields in the stator. Here is the key to free energy from magnet motors - at least what I have calculated.

Where the magnet pairs is ligned up side by side, it provides least torque, about 40% of the torque provided when the magnet pairs are farthest apart. The good thing is that both conditions provides torque in the same direction - and every conditions between.

The poles of the rotor is in direction of the most purple coloured stator magnets.

I have used the program FEMM4.0 to simulate the torque. This model provides about 1000Nm torque in average in one complete revolution.

So where does the motor get the energy to alter the magnetic fields from? Nowhere. To alter the magnets does not require energy because there is no force that fights against the torque in the rotor. And we know that torque- or force times distance is energy. Left there is the torque from the rotor which infenitely will try to approach the sticky spot, and escape from the slippy spot. So there you go. A perpetual motion magnet motor with a lots of energy to spare.

PS! I am sceptical to perpetual motion. So any kind of feedback regarding flaws in the design are welcome. To state that "You cannot get energy from nothing" isn't a good explanation, so find the flaw and explain why if you want to  :)

Br.

Vidar


Here is a link to an animation of a simpler version - average torque is 850 000Nm in this one, but the model in FEMM is also VERY big:
http://lyd-interior.no/div/Magnet-alternator.gif

Offline Liberty

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 01:47:50 AM »
Some more information, some changes from the previous post etc., + a link to a GIF-animation on the bottom of this post.

The key is to equalize the counterforce required when altering magnetic fields.
The stator magnets are altering the magnetic field by pushing and pulling pairs of magnets, which each has oposite polarity facing the rotor magnet, in order to alter the magnetic field in a way that will allways pull and push the round two pole rotormagnet, in the center, in the same direction regardless of the rotors position.
To separate two magnets in the stator this way requires a lot of force. However, the forces required to alter the statormagnet are canceled out by the oposite force 90 degrees ahead and back. So no net force, hence no energy, is required to alter the magnetic fields in the stator. Here is the key to free energy from magnet motors - at least what I have calculated.

Where the magnet pairs is ligned up side by side, it provides least torque, about 40% of the torque provided when the magnet pairs are farthest apart. The good thing is that both conditions provides torque in the same direction - and every conditions between.

The poles of the rotor is in direction of the most purple coloured stator magnets.

I have used the program FEMM4.0 to simulate the torque. This model provides about 1000Nm torque in average in one complete revolution.

So where does the motor get the energy to alter the magnetic fields from? Nowhere. To alter the magnets does not require energy because there is no force that fights against the torque in the rotor. And we know that torque- or force times distance is energy. Left there is the torque from the rotor which infenitely will try to approach the sticky spot, and escape from the slippy spot. So there you go. A perpetual motion magnet motor with a lots of energy to spare.

PS! I am sceptical to perpetual motion. So any kind of feedback regarding flaws in the design are welcome. To state that "You cannot get energy from nothing" isn't a good explanation, so find the flaw and explain why if you want to  :)

Br.

Vidar


Here is a link to an animation of a simpler version - average torque is 850 000Nm in this one, but the model in FEMM is also VERY big:
http://lyd-interior.no/div/Magnet-alternator.gif

I had to look at your design for a while to try to understand what all was going on and when it happens.  I do believe a magnet motor is possible, (so I am building one of my own design, but I do not use Femm in my calculations, just former experience from testing), however I think after looking at the animation that you have, there might be timing issues with the comb portion on this one if I understand it correctly.  In order to attract, an advance timing must be used to create torque.  In order to have thrust off of a repulsion field, energy input is needed with correct timing or there will be no thrust from repulsion.  I don't think that the magnetic fields will provide correct timing themselves in this manner by the force of magnetic field alone to provide thrust in the real world.  And if by chance the timing was right, energy input from torque else where in the motor would be needed at the correct time.  In my experience, the timing may require control and some energy input.  Very creative design.  Please feel free to correct me if I do not understand your device correctly.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 01:47:50 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 09:03:06 AM »
I had to look at your design for a while to try to understand what all was going on and when it happens.  I do believe a magnet motor is possible, (so I am building one of my own design, but I do not use Femm in my calculations, just former experience from testing), however I think after looking at the animation that you have, there might be timing issues with the comb portion on this one if I understand it correctly.  In order to attract, an advance timing must be used to create torque.  In order to have thrust off of a repulsion field, energy input is needed with correct timing or there will be no thrust from repulsion.  I don't think that the magnetic fields will provide correct timing themselves in this manner by the force of magnetic field alone to provide thrust in the real world.  And if by chance the timing was right, energy input from torque else where in the motor would be needed at the correct time.  In my experience, the timing may require control and some energy input.  Very creative design.  Please feel free to correct me if I do not understand your device correctly.
Hi, and thank you for your input  :).

I have looked at different "snapshots" of the positions of the motor, and used vectors to calcutalte the torque required to alter the magnetic field in the stator.

The stator magnets is fixed to a crankshaft with two joints 180 degrees apart. This joints is aligned vertical if the rotor north pole is pointing to the right. The stator magnets with the north pole pointing towards center, is linked to the lowest joints, and the other magnets with the north pole pointing outwards is linked to the upper joint.

I have concidered that there is a similar magnet configuration linked to the stator magnets which is counterforceing the force required to pull the magnets apart in the stator. So there should not take energy to alter them if we had a wooden or plastic rotor we wanted to rotate by hand. So the rotor does not have to "think" about that.

I have calculated that the stator magnets at 45, 135, 225 and 315 degrees does cancel out the force on the crankshaft sideways. The magnets on the very right and left are together providing a counterforce.
The model is very big. In a new model I've made, the joints in the crankshaft is 1 meter apart which is 0,5 meters from center. The rotor is 7.6 meters in diameter. The torque of the rotor is 138 256 Nm, and each stator magnet provides an average of 96876 Nm counter torque together on the crankshaft. That is about 30% less than the torque from the rotor.

96876  / 137 256 = 0.71 = sin45o - coincidence?

It seams that the timing and the ofset of the rotor will provides a sum of torque that will work in one direction.

I must take some more time to calculate more angles to have more samples in one revolution. My computer is so slow, so it takes a lot of time to simulate the motor with a reliable calculations.

Here is the model in Femm I'm playing with right now. (see the atached zip-file)

Br.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 10:31:10 PM »
I have done some modifications with my motor. The rotordiameter are the same, but now I have split it in two parts, so left half has north pointing down, and the other halve is pointing up.
See snapshot from FEMM with some explanations on where the joints are and how the links between the magnets and the joints are configured. Attached are also this motor as a FEMM simulation. For those who has time, please look into this motor. After I split the rotor like that. The force to alter the stator magnet polarization suddenly dropped to zero. Because all the north-inwards stator magnets are in sum canceling out forces TOWARDS the rotors center. The same deal with all the north-outwards stator magnets.

It seams that the sum of all forces affecting the system is only going in parallell with the tangens of the rotor surface - hence torque.

I have tried to simulate the rotor in any random angels with the stator magnets locked, and it will allways generate torque except when the poles of the rotor is pointing directly left and right.

Well. As my computer can see it, there is now no forces at all that is preventing the rotor to turn around.

EDIT: Remember that the alignment of the stator magnets are following the rotor all the time because of the crankshaft with the two joints on it is linked to the stator magnets.
There are 32 samples in this motor as there is 11.25 degrees between each stator magnet. It should be good enough for you to calculate if there is significant usable torque left in the rotor.

Any comments?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:58:40 PM by Low-Q »

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 10:31:10 PM »
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Offline Honk

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 08:54:52 AM »
Your idea is interesting but most people (including myself) don't understand how the
motor is built and how it's supposed to work. The pictures is not very self-explanatory.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 04:25:36 PM »
Your idea is interesting but most people (including myself) don't understand how the
motor is built and how it's supposed to work. The pictures is not very self-explanatory.

OK. I will try to explain.

All the biggest stator magnets are connected to the lowest joint. The smallest stator magnets are linked as pairs, and are connected to the upper joint. This connection is made of something strong and non flexible material - rods, so to speak.

When the rotor turns, the joints will follow the rotor because the joints are fixed to the rotor, and therefor it will continously change the position of the magnets - like pistons in an engine. (or like pistons in a radial engine, for those who knows what that is)

This means that the magnets positions will follow the rotor around, means that the magnets closest to the rotor will allways be closest to the same place on the rotor all the time - except that there is allways the next magnet that is closest, or farthest off the rotor as the rotor turns. That means that the stator magnets cannot rotate - they are fixed sideways, and are therefor only allowed to move towards or away from the rotor - like a radial engine.

Does this help?

I will present another design too with only an iron rotor - that later. But first it is important to understand the mechanics. I'll wait untill someone says they understand the mechanics. :)

Br.

Vdiar


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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 04:25:36 PM »
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Offline jonifer

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 09:14:55 PM »
2D program cant calculate magnetic field problem - only 3D ( Maxwell 3D, JmagStudio ets)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 11:38:42 PM »
2D program cant calculate magnetic field problem - only 3D ( Maxwell 3D, JmagStudio ets)
As long as the problem is 2D Femm will do.
What I miss in 2D programs is the ability to see the magnetic lines if I have for instance a ringmagnet where the poles was pointing towards center. Meaning that I cannot see the magnetic lines which is angular to the 2D surface. And Femm cannot calculate whith it then. However, In these experiments I dont need 3D.

If you have a copy of Maxwell 3D, I would like to have a copy of it too :)

Br.

Vidar


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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 11:38:42 PM »
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Offline eavogels

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 12:51:06 PM »
Since I like ideas that are based on 'chasing tails', I started with a small proof of principle, first only to find out if the forces in 2 opposite magnet "combs" are giving a sum of zero force for gliding i and out. I already found out that it is not so easy to build a construction that handles these forces.
Eric

Offline broli

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 01:30:29 PM »
As long as the problem is 2D Femm will do.
What I miss in 2D programs is the ability to see the magnetic lines if I have for instance a ringmagnet where the poles was pointing towards center. Meaning that I cannot see the magnetic lines which is angular to the 2D surface. And Femm cannot calculate whith it then. However, In these experiments I dont need 3D.

If you have a copy of Maxwell 3D, I would like to have a copy of it too :)

Br.

Vidar



The reason why software can't do this is because this is a monopole in 2d  ;D.

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 01:30:29 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 01:38:04 PM »
Hi again. I have made a drawing based on the simulation in Femm. It shows all the magnets and polarization. There is small green arrows on the stator magnets that is showing which direction these stator magnets are going if the rotor goes clockwise. Again, the stator magnets DOES NOT ROTATE together with the rotor. :)
The rotor is made of a permanentmagnet and two pieces of iron.

Practical info:
Where the stator magnet is attracting angular to the rotor (directly towards the center), it will also push away the joint it is connected to.
Where the stator magnet is repelling angular to the rotor (directly away from the center), it will also pull the joint it is connected to.
"Statormagnets 1" is working opposite of "Statormagnets 2", as they are connected to each joint on the opposite side of the shaft.
Torque of the rotor is negative - means that the rotor spins clockwise. Two long green arrows shows the direction of the rotor.
The statormagnets closer to the top and bottom has acute angle to the joints angular alignment. Acute angle therfor means less counterforce. The stator magnets are also most attracted or repelled at this acute angle. So these forces has to be multiplied with the Sinus of the angle.

Example: If the attracting force towards center at 11.25 degrees are 100N*, the force acting as counterforce on the joints is:
100 x sin11.25 = 19N.
If the joint is 1 meter from the shaft, this represent 19Nm torque acting on the joint.

*The forces in Femm goes in X and Y direction. To find the force towards center you must take square root of X2 + Y2


The radius of the crankshaft is 1 meter (1 meter between the shaft and the joints), to easier calculate the torque caused by the force required to change the statormagnet positions.

This motor is therefor VERY big, but never mind the size - just focus on trying to compare the force required to alternate the statormagnets, compared to the torque of the rotor.

So you now have to consider a lot of variables, calulating vectors like z2 = x2 + y2. But also have the "Sin" function on you calculator. This is important to have some knowledge to, in order to find the exact forces working on the joints - as the magnets are positioned with different angles. They are all 11,25o apart.

You must download the Femm simulation attached. Replace the material in the statormagnets with air, except the one you want to calculate the force for. To spend less time, you can also keep the magnetic material in the stator magnet on the oposite side. IMPORTANT: Never change the rotor materials during these calculations.

I have also tried to reduce the rotor in Femm 10% - 50% - just to smooth the forces and torque to make a better calculation. Regardless of what I do with the rotor in size, the rotor spends relatively very small forces to alter the statormagnets positions in and out.

So here you go. A magnetmotor that actually works regarding torque and forces. Torque and forces accellerates mass. A mass in a given velocity represent a given kinetic energy. And that kinetic energy do I hope there is possible to extract from this motor as energy.

I'll keep dreaming, but I really need help with this last one. Anyone? I feel very alone here - the replies are few :'(

 :) :) :)

Br.

Vidar

Offline broli

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 01:41:46 PM »
Low-q the main problem is that the design is very complex to build. You need to use the same principle on something simpler. Then people might give it a try :p. There's one thing I learned lately, everyone will ignore you unless you show them a real or faked running design. I don't understand this mentality.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 02:43:50 PM »
Low-q the main problem is that the design is very complex to build. You need to use the same principle on something simpler. Then people might give it a try :p. There's one thing I learned lately, everyone will ignore you unless you show them a real or faked running design. I don't understand this mentality.
I see. I was hoping that someone could give it an eyeball, and try to figure out how it works, if it works, why it doesn't work etc. This is a forum with hope for free energy. Ther isn't for nothing most posts and visits in this forum is related to magnet motors. So I do expect someone with a bright brain have some interests in looking at this - even if it is a simulation.

PS! I do not claim anything, I just want to know anyones opinion. As allways, I'm very sceptical to OU devices ;)

Edit: I will make a much simpler version. But the version above is complex because of all the stator magnets. It a reason why it's many, and that is to increase the number of angles to better determind the average torque of the rotor. I'll be back with a four pole sets motor - not 32 stator sets with 96 magnets in total as above. The only thing required is basicly not to let the stator magnets do anything but going in and out.

Br.

Vidar

Offline kadora

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Re: This must work! Altering magnetic field without cost. OU or not?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 12:37:21 PM »
Hi Low Q

 

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