Author Topic: Cavitation. The key to overunity? (Read 136551 times)

spinner · « **Reply #90 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:34:07 AM »

Quote from: khabe on December 08, 2008, 01:17:28 AM

I dont know much about cavity principle but ... are you sure that common resistive electrical heating element can convert electricity to heat with a +98% efficiency
Then what about direct current heaters wheres 3 phase electrodes are direct in water and whats bit more efficient mode of water heating - what is this "bit" then?
between +98%....99,9% I have this system in my house, up to 12kW and I pay less than before when was common 9kW resistive element heaters.
I think that resistive electrical heating elements are not so high efficient as you described.
cheers,
khabe

Hi, Khabe!
What kind of "electrodes" directly in water do you have? Are they not "resistive"?

A common heating elements are immersed in water, too. Due to an almost pure Ohmic impedance, they convert most of the electricity to heat. A bit is wasted on electromotive forces, inductive/capacitive losses, etc... A small part, that is..

madddann · « **Reply #91 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:41:57 AM »

Quote from: spinner on December 08, 2008, 01:16:09 AM

FYI, there are several cavitation mechanisms... Which one are you referring to? Or, which one is OU?

How is your water heater powered?
Maybe it's just one of those old water heaters where electricity is wasted only to produce heat...
Why don't you change it with any of the FE heating devices widely known on the market? How about your Witts ultrasonic cavitation device?
What can be achieved with resonance? A Unity? This is known for many many years.....
I thought you said OverUnity...

Yes its an old water heater constructed by my dad 30 years ago and is also OU during the summer 'cause it runs on solar power and during the winter runs even on heated water from a furnace. so it is a combided device - electricity, solar, furnace. Happy now?
The Witts device is not "mine", i just came here in hope to find more info about it. And now that i clearly see how is the device supposed to work, i can say that this is preety advanced stuff.

Dann

allcanadian · « **Reply #92 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:54:53 AM »

@spinner

Quote

BTW, a very common resistive electrical heating element can convert electricity to heat with a +98% efficiency. Can you do better?

Yes I can----- I can use a heat pump system and cut the electrical energy used in half to supply the same quantity of heat. Hmmmm, if as you state an electrical heating element is +98% efficient then how can a heat pump system do so much better?. This is because the heat pump system "moved" heat it did not supposedly generate it. Now ask your self one question---- where is the equivalency? Obviously an electrical heating element is "not" 98% efficient in electrical terms when half the input could deliver the same quantity of heat using a heat pump system----the proof is the electrical bills of everyone who has a heat pump system. What you fail to understand is the difference between transfering energy from one place to another and dissipating it completely in the media. A cavitation (implosion) produces a compression as an effect from the implosion, a compression produces heat, a compression must then expand relative to the media that surrounds it and in the right context pressure waves can be produced in such a way that the next implosion is reinforced by a reflection of the previous pressure wave resulting from the previous implosion. The effects are additive and are not dissipated completely lowering the power requirement from the input because the input does not drive the process directly it only maintains it. You are saying static conditions and dynamic ones must be equal when it should be obvious they simply cannot be.

spinner · « **Reply #93 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:56:04 AM »

Quote from: madddann on December 08, 2008, 01:41:57 AM

Yes its an old water heater constructed by my dad 30 years ago and is also OU during the summer 'cause it runs on solar power and during the winter runs even on heated water from a furnace. so it is a combided device - electricity, solar, furnace. Happy now?
The Witts device is not "mine", i just came here in hope to find more info about it. And now that i clearly see how is the device supposed to work, i can say that this is preety advanced stuff.

Dann

Lol, you're "cheating" with the solar power OU... Ok.

Believe me, I'd like to see that "Witts device" working in reality exactly as it's seen on the video... But you already know what I think of it....
If you see it as a pretty advanced stuff, please, explain it to me.
Like I said, I see only a very good trick with an ultrasonic water humidifier...

spinner · « **Reply #94 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:12:39 AM »

Quote from: allcanadian on December 08, 2008, 01:54:53 AM

@spinnerYes I can----- I can use a heat pump system and cut the electrical energy used in half to supply the same quantity of heat. Hmmmm, if as you state an electrical heating element is +98% efficient then how can a heat pump system do so much better?. This is because the heat pump system "moved" heat it did not supposedly generate it. Now ask your self one question---- where is the equivalency? Obviously an electrical heating element is "not" 98% efficient in electrical terms when half the input could deliver the same quantity of heat using a heat pump system----the proof is the electrical bills of everyone who has a heat pump system. What you fail to understand is the difference between transfering energy from one place to another and dissipating it completely in the media. A cavitation (implosion) produces a compression as an effect from the implosion, a compression produces heat, a compression must then expand relative to the media that surrounds it and in the right context pressure waves can be produced in such a way that the next implosion is reinforced by a reflection of the previous pressure wave resulting from the previous implosion. The effects are additive and are not dissipated completely lowering the power requirement from the input because the input does not drive the process it only maintains it. You are saying static conditions and dynamic ones must be equal when it should be obvious they simply cannot be.

Don't mess the heat pumps with a common electricity heaters. You have another source of energy with the first, but just a common electricity input with the later. Check out open/close thermodynamic system definitions.

What you fail to understand is that an "implosion" in cavitation is a just a consequence of a previous pressure compressions/"explosions", which are usually driven by a known energy source. And you have to pour great amounts of energy to produce an observable cavitation effect.

I'd like to see an reproducible experiment which shows an easy measurable water heating by "cavitation". Do you want to try?

Oh, don't mix cavitation with a sonoluminiscence or even sono fusion....

madddann · « **Reply #95 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:21:42 AM »

Quote from: spinner on December 08, 2008, 01:56:04 AM

Lol, you're "cheating" with the solar power OU... Ok.

Believe me, I'd like to see that "Witts device" working in reality exactly as it's seen on the video... But you already know what I think of it....
If you see it as a pretty advanced stuff, please, explain it to me.
Like I said, I see only a very good trick with an ultrasonic water humidifier...

So solar power means cheating to you? Anyway i didn't even say that i have an ou device, but as you can see i have one, but does not use cavitation.
I cannot explain how the device works yet, i have to see some more info to be able to explain the effects of its operation. Maybe some of the other guys here would be able to explain the effects.

See whatever you want, it's your eyes and your brain cheating you

Dann

spinner · « **Reply #96 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:32:49 AM »

Quote from: madddann on December 08, 2008, 02:21:42 AM

...
See whatever you want, it's your eyes and your brain cheating you
Dann

Yes, possibly..

Or, maybe your eyes and your brain is cheating you?

We'll see.

ramset · « **Reply #97 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:01:12 AM »

Dan I don't think the way this works is common knowledge, but I do think we can see how this could work[Thanks A.C .Sparks Koen all] more so today than a few weeks ago
Abba rue's idea on trying to pick up the frequency is cool
We are learning a lot of ways to beat up water lately [The HHO guys] with frequency
Dan I really think this is going to happen and I think Spinner will love it
I have a son in law that is a scientist in sound devices for mapping down into the earth under water
I Will talk to him tommorrow to see if he can make any suggestions
Chet

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #98 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:54:21 AM »

I use Firefox and have the "better youtube" add on. This allows me to download any youtube video. There are other ways to do this with other software. (free) You can google and see what pops up. I would really love to see an analysis of the sound freq. if possible. This was a great suggestion, even if we can't make it work, good to try anyway.

Everyone has their opinions about WITTS and I think I have stated mine enough already. But, and there is always a but, if this guy's device has even a 1% chance of being real, I feel we should look into it. Even if only to stop others from going down this road if it turns out to be a dead end. I can't think of a cheap way of replicating this device....can anyone? I have no idea where to try to get a stainless steel sphere, or how to make one. I am not convinced this is ultrasonics at work here. Those transducers usually take a lot of input power and need more power for the control unit. I have experience with ultrasonic impact grinders and ultrasonic rotary milling machines. A lot of power is need to drive either one.

Bill

khabe · « **Reply #99 on:** December 08, 2008, 08:10:40 AM »

Quote from: spinner on December 08, 2008, 01:34:07 AM

Hi, Khabe!
What kind of "electrodes" directly in water do you have? Are they not "resistive"?

A common heating elements are immersed in water, too. Due to an almost pure Ohmic impedance, they convert most of the electricity to heat. A bit is wasted on electromotive forces, inductive/capacitive losses, etc... A small part, that is..

Its pure electrode heating system I have. Self-made, of course. 3 titanium electrodes 12mm diameter direct in to water inside of boiler ( I have 2 m3 heat accumulator made from common steel)... electrodes are environed with outer screen (spec. steel) ... extreme simple. Just right dimensions, in proportion. There is heat resistant plastic disc and sleeves for insulating ...
and correct choice of materials. Star connected 3ph power line !!! Electrodes -> L1, L2, L3, Screen -> "0" and Flange -> Ground
Its safe, dont worry for my lfe

or dont hope too much

Also called as Ion_heat_system

Myself I do not like this kind of name

cheers,
khabe

khabe · « **Reply #100 on:** December 08, 2008, 09:17:33 AM »

Hereby one more picture. You see electrode heater in the foreground. My system is similar but accumulator is much bigger. Somet peoples do not use accumulator at all ...
I do because electricity bit cheaper at nights ans weekends,
khabe

spinner · « **Reply #101 on:** December 08, 2008, 09:31:42 AM »

@khabe

Very nice construction! Yes, Ion heaters - the current passes through water heating it directly...
But...

!!! This kind of device is POTENTIALLY LETHAL !!!. Even if it's operation is guarded by a good Earthing and ground leakage disconnect circuits.
At this voltages, a few milliamps will probably kill you instantly!
If your heater neutral line gets broken, the current seeks a new path...

Another serious health concern is the ionization of water... (check out the taste of the water coming out of your heater...)...
Then, electrochemical erosion of the electrodes (titanium, stainless steel)... The water gets polluted with small but harmful heavy metals...

I would kindly recommend you to think about those issues... And you have a family...

Oh, I almost forgot... Why do you think this works better (more efficient) than common heating devices?
The power factor is worse, and it has additional electrochemical (nonreversible) losses....
Did you made any el. power and heating capacity measurements?

Cheers!

Edit to add:
You're probably using a closed primary water circuit for a central heating and heat exchanger for a secondary "potable" water... This way some of the problems mentioned above can be avoided... Still - safety/efficiency factors remain.

froarty · « **Reply #102 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:09:44 AM »

maybe casimir plates formed inadvertently -pitting - the ultrasound would explain increased penetration but the real trick below I just posted on an HHO forum:
skeletal catalyst converts hh to hydrino!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys - everyone should start experimenting with skeletal catalysts - they can turn hydrogen into hydrinos which have hundreds of time more power in their covalent bonds. On October 25 th Rowan University confirmed Rayney nickel supplied by BLP is producing far over unity for the amount of hydrogen supplied. The theory is at byzipp.com/energy. I recommend simple inline filter where carttridge is replaced with skeletal catalyst powder and anything you can do to keep the hydrogen monatomic so it mixes inside casimir cavities that occur naturally in skeletal catalysts. Another possibly is using the powder as an enclosed paste for the hydrogen electrode to capture the hydrogen atoms before they have time to form bonds and incorporate into your existing rigs seemlessly.

Please report back to the forum your results so everyone can help us dial in
on the recipe- BLP wants to sell premixed skeletal catalysts but the theory
dictates that HHO kits can perform the same function!

there are numerous skeletal catalysts most of which have cavities and pores that provide increased surface area, The casimir effect requires metal pores where walls are less than 2nm apart -the mon-atomic hydrogen atoms must form covalent bonds while they are in the casimir cavity to produce hydrinos so getting a significant proportion of hydrinos will take some finesse. I would not be at all surprised if some of the claims previously labeled as fradulent regarding HHO are actually just fluke formation of hydrinos due to microscopic metal cavities associated with pitting. this represents a new chapter in chemistry/physics and the price to play is peanuts!

khabe · « **Reply #103 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:32:36 PM »

Quote from: spinner on December 08, 2008, 09:31:42 AM

@khabe

Very nice construction! Yes, Ion heaters - the current passes through water heating it directly...
But...

!!! This kind of device is POTENTIALLY LETHAL !!!. Even if it's operation is guarded by a good Earthing and ground leakage disconnect circuits.
At this voltages, a few milliamps will probably kill you instantly!
If your heater neutral line gets broken, the current seeks a new path...

Another serious health concern is the ionization of water... (check out the taste of the water coming out of your heater...)...
Then, electrochemical erosion of the electrodes (titanium, stainless steel)... The water gets polluted with small but harmful heavy metals...

I would kindly recommend you to think about those issues... And you have a family...

Oh, I almost forgot... Why do you think this works better (more efficient) than common heating devices?
The power factor is worse, and it has additional electrochemical (nonreversible) losses....
Did you made any el. power and heating capacity measurements?

Cheers!

Edit to add:
You're probably using a closed primary water circuit for a central heating and heat exchanger for a secondary "potable" water... This way some of the problems mentioned above can be avoided... Still - safety/efficiency factors remain.

I told you before - I pay with this direct 3ph 12kW (18A per phase) electrode device less than I paid with 9kW 3ph common resistrance heater. It heats much faster up to needed degrees.
Its just is more efficient. I have +250m2 house - all keeped warm. I know what I paid before and what was need to pay when new heater built and installed. These money are the only measurements

Now I have one more novelty added - air/water heat pump converter. It keeps my system ca 50C...60C degrees. - winter time "Ion-Heater" will just come to help.
Totaly I have lessened more than twice spendings for electric heat although now I use "lazy man ventilation" - windows little bid open even winter time - Im serial pipe-smoker

Before it was impossible because high costs.
I do understand you worry abour safety - I did also - but two years show me that no risk. I have dublicated Neutral and very thick additional grounding and good automatics ...
I have examinized my system - no leakages, no stray currents, no strange corrosions ... I even can touch metallic parts of my heater with my "piloman"

cheers,
khabe

I found more realistic figures about resistance water heaters:

35 gal. or less   0.94%
36 - 45 gal.   0.93%
46 - 64 gal.   0.92%
65 gal.     0.91%
66 - 118 gal.   0.88%
119 + gal.   0.83%

It depends about Tank capacity ( system capacity also )
I have 2m3 Tank + circulating system

khabe

ramset · « **Reply #104 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:31:04 PM »

Khabe
Nice skills you have![not for everyone though]
Bill
I appreciate your skepticism. I was sold on this only because of something user Feynman discovered about Thrapp and his people .
They hold patents on things we use every day, the laser thermometer being one of them.[it would present a huge credibility issue for them if they were also scammers]
In talking to a scientist in this field [underwater transponders] he asked if I could get a photo of the transducer.
Do you have the ability to pull a shot of that transducer off the vid and post it here?
Chet

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Author Topic: Cavitation. The key to overunity? (Read 136551 times)

spinner

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