@borg13

Im sure Archer says that you can use permanant magnets at the 7 posistion but it takes allot more effort to get it set up correctly.

@Chad, nice pic Chad, pics work better for me than endless explanations.

@all...soooooo the mags at 1 pull right ?.....and the ELECTO mag pushes at 7.......keeping the weight on the right side so the wheel wants to turn Clock Wise,........im wondering if there needs to be an electromag to push at 7, OR, can we simply use strong neo mags to do the pushing ?..what do ya think folks?.

hmmmmm, maybe when/if the time is right Mr Q will bust out his crayons and post a little pic for us so we can ALL be on the same page 

Hi All
I could be wrong but when they talk about equal and opposite reations with magnets they mean with attracting magnet one is pulling the other towards it and the other is pulling in the opposite direction so they both move together going in different directions, with repelling one is pushing the other one and the other is pushing in the opposite direction so they both move away in different directions.
Because they are equal and opposite reaction they push from each other or pull towards each other if they wasn't equal the one would push the other away with out moving its self or one would attract the other in with out moving its self, the only time you get that to happen is if you hold one magnet, now the reaction is in both magnets but one moves and the others reaction can be felt in your hand, you have to react to the magnets reaction by ever pulling back to stop your magnet attracting to the other or push forward to stop your magnet repelling from the other.
Take Care All
Graham

About the European wheel (The Aldo Costa's wheel), please consult:

I am in paris and I see it
but it does not work !!

Hi All
Lets stop a myth right now and thats the attraction and repultion of one magnet is different, heres a experiment that will show you that there the same, I made a video if anyone doesn't want to do it there selves anyway here goes first: draw a line on a piece of paper, place a magnet on the line with ever the north or south pole facing you now get another magnet the same shape and strength on the first and slowly move that magnet towards the on you have on the line so they attract to each other at the place they attract put another line, this tells you where the two magnets start attracting to each other, now place your first magnet back on the line and get your other magnet turn it around so it will repel the first magnet and start moving it towards it slowly.
If you move it straight towards the first magnet it should repel it at the line you made for the start of the attraction, keep doing it changing from attract to repel you will find hardly any difference if any between the two starting point, if you see a difference it will be the repel pushing before the line the reason you get this is because you have your magnets comming together  from the side and not straight on, for some strange reason the repel is stronger if you come from the side of two magnets and not straight on if you try the same position with attracting magnet it will do two things first it does something I called in other groups the corner effect where it repels the two attracting magnet when it hits the corner of the flux, once past that corner effect it will not attract until the attracting line.
Do the experiment as much as you like you will never see it attract in before it repels away, like I said straight on and everytime the attract and repel will happen at the same place.
Take Care All
Graham

Oh dear ..look at this from

http://www.dextermag.com/Magnetic-Theory-Design.aspx#16


Why are attraction forces stronger than repelling forces? Shouldn't the magnetic forces be equal and opposite?
Magnets in attraction produce an increasing field strength in the gap between them as they approach, and therefore greater force. The reason is that the effective system permeance coefficient (PC) increases as the magnets get closer. As they approach, more flux lines flow from one magnet to the other, rather than taking a path from North to South pole of the same magnet. This causes them to act increasingly more like a single, longer magnet with a greater load line slope, increasing the value of Bd and decreasing Hd for both magnets. (PC = Bd/Hd)
 
Since flux lines cannot cross each other, the bucking magnetic fields of magnets in repulsion are compressed. Flux density in the radial component of the bucking fields increases in amplitude as the magnets approach each other, and more of their own external field (Bd) is pushed back into the magnets themselves, where it becomes part of the self demagnetizing field (Hd). Since Bd decreases while Hd increases, the PC value decreases as repelling magnets get closer and there is less external field available to create a repelling force. A repelling magnet arrangement can apply intense cross fields where magnetic domains have the least resistance to external influences, so some level of demagnetization may occur, depending on magnet geometry and the coercivity of the material.

OK, here's my take on it.  I have not run this by Archer first, so take it for what you think it's worth.

First, all of the diagrams above are incorrect in some way or another.

All you have are three tubes, set one atop the other (or more accurately, one after the other), crossing at their middles, so they form an asterisk.  Where they cross each other, a shaft extends out perpendicular to the tubes (that is, they form roughly the shape of a 6-bladed propeller on a shaft).

(Note:  all materials mentioned in this post are NOT attracted to magnets, unless specified otherwise.)

Inside each tube is a rod-weight assembly, which consists solely of a rod with either permanent magnets attached at each end (which will act as the weights), or a combination of some material to act as weights, capped by a magnet.  (With the magnets at the very ends of the rod.)

Now, lets look at what happens in a single tube.  One end is at 12 o'clock and the other is at 6.

We turn the top of the tube 5 degrees or so to the right.  It now enters the field of an arch of permanent magnets that is fixed just outside the reach of the tube.  That row of permanent magnets extends less than 75 degrees around, from a few degrees after 12 o'clock to approximately the 2:30 o'clock position.  (The precise position will be determined by experimentation.)  This row of permanent magnets is in attraction to the magnet(s) at the top end of the rod in the tube.

What happens?  Nothing, as far as we can see.  The rod assembly (hereinafter called ?rod?) does not move.  The permanent magnets are not strong enough to lift the rod.

If we were to place another arch of magnets roughly opposite that upper row of permanent magnets, extending from about 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock, in repulsion to the magnet(s) at the low end of the rod in the tube, and then we moved the tube so that one end was at 7 and the other end at 1, the rod would lift slightly away from the bottom of the tube and float there.  It would stay at a position where the magnetic forces balanced against gravity.  Let's say we have a 20 centimeter tube, and an 18-centimeter rod assembly, and at the 7 o'clock position the bottom of the rod floats at 1 centimeter from the bottom of the tube, given the combination of:  the permanent magnets above that are pulling the top of the rod upward, the magnet(s) fixed at 7 to 9 that are repelling the bottom of the rod upward, and gravity which is pulling the rod downward.  (When I say "floats," I'm only talking about in relation to the bottom of the tube.  The rod itself will probably come to rest against the side of the tube.)

So, the tube can sit at the 7 o'clock position all day long, and the rod will continue to float 1 centimeter above the bottom of the tube (assuming the bottom arch of magnets is either a set of permanent magnets or is an electromagnet that remains on).

(A side note:  I believe Archer's discussion of the ring magnets on a rod was to provide an analogy about how this works.  It was not intended to be thought of as part of the device itself.)

OK, so now let's leave everything the same, but rotate the tube a few more degrees, so now the top of the tube is at 2 o'clock and the bottom is at 8 o'clock.

Let's also assume the friction of the inside of the tube is fairly low.  And let's say we applied some very lightweight grease to the inside of the tube to make it really slick.

Now, the rod comes to rest at 1-1/2 centimeters from the lower end of the tube, given the balance between the magnets pushing/pulling it upward, and gravity pulling it downward.

You can leave it all day long, and the rod will remain floating 1-1/2 centimeters above the bottom of the tube.

Now let's move the tube a little more.  The top end is now halfway between 2 and 3 o'clock, and the bottom is halfway between 8 and 9 o'clock.  At this point, the arch magnets above come to their end.  At this point, the balance of the magnetic and gravity forces cause the rod to ?float? let's say 2 centimeters from the lower end of the rod.  Obviously the rod is not floating, because the tube is only 15 degrees from horizontal:  the rod is lying along one side of the tube.  But the lower end of the rod comes to rest 2 centimeters from the end of the tube.

Now, it is important that the upper arch of magnets is not so strong as to jerk the rod to it, because it will simply stick there.  You must end the arch of permanent magnets before you get to the point (somewhere between 2 and 3 o'clock) that the push/pull of the magnets will cause the rod to completely overcome gravity.

By experimenting with holding the tube at various positions and seeing where the rod comes to rest above the bottom of the tube, you can find exactly where to end the row of permanent magnets that runs from just after 12 o'clock to somewhere around 2:30 o'clock.

(So, another side note:  all of the experimentation is done without the device actually rotating.  That of course  makes it much easier.  You are just determining various balance points at different static configurations.  You are not trying to see what is happening while something is spinning.)

Now, let's move the top of the tube just a little farther clockwise.  We move beyond the end of the arch of permanent magnets above.  If those magnets had extended this far, the rod would jerk to the right and everything would stop, because the arch magnet would hold the rod magnet there.

But the permanent arch magnets don't extend that far, so we are OK.  As we leave the field of those magnets, the electromagnet extending from 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock continues to hold the rod toward the ?top? (now right hand) end of the tube.  The tube is now almost horizontal, with one end at almost 3 o'clock and one end at almost 9 o'clock.  Because the weight has been shifted rightward, and the weights on the rod are hefty enough, gravity pulling on the rod causes the shaft to turn.

Centrifugal force has nothing to do with it, and the momentum of the turning weights has nothing to do with it.  It's a matter of gradually shifting the balance to the right ? a shifting that you can stop and measure at any point along the way ? until the rod end reaches 3 o'clock.

And what is claimed is that the energy needed to operate the electromagnet (to help increasingly "float" the rod as the tube turns rightward) is significantly less than the energy generated by the turning shaft.

One other point:  the movement of a tube end from 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock can itself be used as a mechanism to switch on the electromagnet for the period while the tube is moving from 7 to 9.

P.S.  One other important point.  The rods are almost as long as the tubes.  For a 20-centimeter tube, the rod will probably be 18 centimeters long.  In any event, the rods are much longer than about half the length of the tube, as someone suggested above.

Oak..Thanks for the informative description.  I am pondering a build of this soon.

Timing this device is critical.  I would want to arrange the electro mag and the pull-up helper mags so that the rods are lifted with the shortest electrical pulse possible on the electro mag so it is efficient as possible.  I believe long arches of mags or a long electro mag are not necessary if timed and engineered properly.  The arch mags and arched emags exist not only to lift the rod to create the imbalance but to maintin or hold them until they get to the 2:30 mark where gravity takes over.  I envision a mechanical latch so once the rod is lifted at 7pm it stays lifted without the use of the arched emag or addition lift mags.  This would have to be a very smooth working "catch" that is capable of releasing the rod anywhere between 3 and 6.

To test such the device I would build the trigger circuit and emag for use from a battery.  The circuit and timing could be tuned for smooth operation and efficiency.  Then we could load the wheel and go from there and start crunching numbers and adding the generator part.

I would be working what I consider a small scale...rods would be about 20"

.....off to learn how to build a high efficiency low voltage electromagnet.

Anyway....greats suggestions from many people.

Thanks,

Hankinator