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Author Topic: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.  (Read 184365 times)

supersam

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #180 on: January 29, 2008, 05:45:49 AM »
@honk,

i certainly didn't mean to derail you with my pessimistic view.  i only wanted to steer you in the direction of the micro, with your vision.  it just seems to me it would be alot easier to make a flux boosted dual induction split spiral motor that could produce milliwatts of electricity than one that had to produce megawatts.  you can take that however you want and don't let me hinder you from your dream, but the sooner you see the limitations of a magnetically driven system, then the sooner in my opinion you will start to see the benifits of the reduction of size. i would love to just have one of your units that could power a single light.  or maybe my refridgerator even if it is a seperate unit.  small though they may be.

lol
sam

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #181 on: January 29, 2008, 08:33:41 AM »
It just seems to me it would be alot easier to make a flux boosted dual induction split spiral motor that could produce milliwatts of electricity than one that had to produce megawatts.

Sorry Supersam.
I'm not interested in a milliwatt unit. If I'm going to build this I will aim for kilowatts output, but I'll be happy if I hit 500W.
You see, if the output is to low you cannot create a self runner due to all frictional losses of the gear box, generator and other inefficiencies.
If I hit at least 500W output I can easily measure the outcome and perhaps even prove it by a self runner.

But if this device is working just as good as my calculations, I expect it to deliver approx 4500W at 500 RPM, perhaps more.
The average stall torque from the new 60cm motor is calculated to 135ft-lbs. The torque will decrease at speed and some is eaten by the sticky spot.
At 500 RPM I'll be happy if I can harvest half of the stall torque at 67.5ft-lbs.

And the output formula is simple.
Hp at 500 RPM = (67,5 * 2 * 3,14 * 500) / 33000 = 6,42 Hp
Hp in Watts = 6,42 *  746 = 4789 watt

If successful, whether I hit 500W or 4500W, then it's easy to upscale the next unit to meet the requirements of the average household.
But that belongs to the future. Right now I'm focused on finishing the present motor.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 10:57:58 AM by Honk »

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2008, 02:54:36 PM »
Another small but important update:

The heat annealed Mumetal samples will arrive early next week.
I can then test if this new core material really improves the magnetic properties and attraction force.

I have also increased the efficiency of the final Solenoid simply by swapping the round copper wire into square wire.
It allows for a lot better fillrate thus having less copper losses per turn ratio. Calculations show a 17% improvement.
This translates into a solenoid running at 600W and using square wire, will have the same strength as 720W input when using round wire.
But I haven't changed the small test solenoid into square wire. I will only do this on the final solenoids going into the large motor.
Elseway I couldn't compare differences towards the earlier solenoid test results.

I some other very good news to tell you guys.
Yesterday I applied my torque and Hp formula on Sprains small prototype wankel, aka Emelie, to see what the outcome would be.
http://freenrg.info/Sprain/Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor.avi
I know by fact that he is using 2x2x1" rotor magnets and I suppose he used the most regular grade N35.
From knowing the rotor magnet dimensions I estimated the real size and stator gradient of the entire motor.
His output claim on this motor was about 7W on the shaft at 90 RPM, and 3.1W going into solenoid. Meaning 4W surplus of Overunity.
Well, on to the good part. My calculations showed 7.66W output at 90 RPM. Now this is extremely close to his claim of 7W.

Just imagine my own design at the calculated 4.5KW output at 500 RPM.
Suddenly it seems even more likely I'm right on track due to the new numbers that prove his old claim.
Why shouldn't the formula be true on my own design when it fit's the Emilie. Soon we will know.
I guess the motor will be assembled and ready for testing within 1 1/2 month from now.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 01:30:19 PM by Honk »

acp

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #183 on: January 31, 2008, 07:47:25 PM »
This is great news Honk, I'm looking every day at your updates. I agree also that bigger will be better, I believe the friction losses in a very small motor would not be much smaller than a larger motor, and as the larger motor is going to produce more power for not much more friction it will be more efficient.

One small question, possibly stupid, Sprain motor was running at 90 rpm, and you estimate 500rpm for yours. Why do you think Sprains motor ran so slowly?

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #184 on: January 31, 2008, 08:19:04 PM »
One small question, possibly stupid, Sprain motor was running at 90 rpm, and you estimate 500rpm for yours. Why do you think Sprains motor ran so slowly?

Not stupid. Good question.  ;)

Well, simply because his first prototype had extremely low torque. I have calculated the stall torque to 1,2ft-lbs.
It's the force of the stall torque that is the causing the free RPM. The stronger the stall torque, the higher the RPM.
And I know by fact that his motor was free spinning at 180 RPM at no load. The 90 RPM was at 7W load.
The torque of an electric motor is a linear line between maximum torque at zero RPM and zero torque at maximum RPM
From this I can cut the stall torque at 1,2ft-lbs in half at 90 RPM, giving 7.66W at 0.6ft-lbs.

I'm happy to see that at least you find my ongoing development interesting.
Not many other readers here at OU forum seem to care to much.
But I'll push forward and finish the motor and if I'm not totaly wrong on this I will get myself a strong OU motor.

supersam

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #185 on: January 31, 2008, 09:04:07 PM »
@honk,

don't fool yourself into thinking, that you don't have a very intriguing idea!  trust me you have my full attention, and my order.  i would love the idea of a unit that can just power my whole house.  i was only trying to point out that miniaturisation, can only provide greater efficiencies.  which i believe acp also accepted as a given.  i am sure that eventually, that will become self evident.  it would really be neat just to have a unit that fits into the decorative scheme of my lamp that powers the thing. or a nano sized unit for the power supply for my dad's pacemaker that doesn't have to be replaced!  thanks for all your efforts, in advance!  keep up the good work.


lol
sam

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #186 on: January 31, 2008, 10:24:59 PM »
Thank you for your support, Supersam.

Perhaps the magnetic wankel is possible to miniaturize but the magnetic force will decrease in a even greater order.
And there is the effect of mass to. In a very small design I believe the accelerated mass is to small to affect the sticky spot.
It's not possible to design a solenoid equal in strength to a neodymium magnet without using supercooled wire.
And when the artificial sticky spot is weaker than the neo magnets some of the gained mass movement must be
sacrificed to help overcome the neodymium sticky spot. This is the reason for me moving to a larger design. More mass vs sticky spot.
And the stronger I can make the solenoid at manageable cooling, the less momentum is lost.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 12:45:19 PM by Honk »

acp

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #187 on: February 01, 2008, 08:33:06 AM »
Honk,  In my opinion, your project and Jacks show the greatest potential of success out of all the different projects going on here on this forum. I'm not really that interested in the Al motor that everyone is currently trying to replicate, as it doesn't really show any potential for doing real work. Yours looks like it could be more than just a self runner, it might do some real work aswell.

What's most interesting about your project is that you are obviously a professional in electronics and engineering and have the skill to be able to  build, test and report on  the motor properly when it is finished.

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #188 on: February 01, 2008, 09:06:18 AM »
Thanks Acp.

Check your inbox...a small, but big, surprise for you... ;D

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #189 on: February 01, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »
Here's a pic on the generator I intend to use when testing the FBDISSM.
It's actually an industrial 3 phase servo motor at 400V capable of 3.5KW.
But I does work fine as a generator to.
I will use a simple chain gearbox to fit the generator to the FBDISSM.
When running at 1600 RPM it delivers 230V, 3 phases at 94% efficiency.
If I just want 115V output I can lower the generator speed to 800 RPM.
It clocks in at 19kg or 41.8lb.

arringtj

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #190 on: February 01, 2008, 04:19:30 PM »
Keep the Spiral spirit alive! I admire your model as I lurk in from time to time. I am quietly working on a permanent magnetic piston type design. If I can't get past my slight sticky spot, I will need a small 2 X 1/2 inch hollow solenoid to pulse at TDC. 

Best regards,
Jeff

nfeijo

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #191 on: February 01, 2008, 07:54:10 PM »
          Honk,

          Do not think people is not paying attention to your nice work. Lots of people are working hard themselves and following your efforts with your projects. You are one of the best prepared among us. I check everyday your progress and wish you all the best.

           Ney
         


Schpankme

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #192 on: February 02, 2008, 12:49:44 AM »
Here's a pic on the generator I intend to use when testing the FBDISSM.
... 3 phase servo motor at 400V capable of 3.5KW.

Honk,

Is that the MITSUBISHI - HF Series - Servo Motor ?

- Schpankme


Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #193 on: February 02, 2008, 12:52:25 AM »
Yes, but it's an older model that was replaced by a new motor.
And they let me keep this one for my own projects, lol.

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #194 on: February 05, 2008, 08:26:31 AM »
I received the heat threated Mumetal pieces yesterday and immediately tried them out in my test rig.
The higher permeability of Mumetal gave slightly higher solenoid face fields, perhaps 2-5% more flux.
But I'm sorry to report worse result (between 5-25% lesser) compared to ordinary Oriented Transformer Steel.
During the tests I noticed the magnet being less attracted to the Mumetal vs Oriented Steel.
The strength of a N45 neo is approx 1.33T and this might be the cause of the weaker results.
Mumetal saturates at 0.8T and Oriented Steel at 1.9T. This means I need to tryout another alloy at higher saturation level.

Permenorm can handle 1.55T (more than the neo) and have pretty good permeability at 120000.
The Mumetal had 250000 and Oriented steel have about 15000.
I'll get some pieces of Permenorm laser cut within a couple of days. (It's hard like spring steel)
If this material doesn't improve results I can just as well use ordinary cheap Oriented Steel.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 09:04:06 AM by Honk »