Author Topic: Low friction gravity wheel utilizing SMOT for pulse boost (Read 17562 times)

Pirate88179 · « **on:** October 07, 2007, 07:21:56 AM »

I know the opinion on this forum of gravity wheels and I do not disagree. I have played with them for years and it seems there is no way to beat the system. But, there is always a but, what if one combined the SMOT principle at exactly the right position utilizing the gravity to assist in passing the sticky spot. Would this give enough of a pulse to close the loop? The wheels I have built in the past come oh so close, but, no cigar. If indeed the SMOT is overunity as most seem to claim, then just a little help from this would make all of the difference. I am procurring a 26" bicycle rim with bearings next week to begin to experiment. What do you all think about this? I have been told that the SMOT does not give much of a push but I have seen the videos where the sphere runs uphill and shoots off the end of the ramp. I just need a very slight pulse/push to close the loop on the gravity wheel and I think this might do it...but, maybe not. Thoughts?

BIll

Low-Q · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2007, 02:21:06 PM »

A SMOT in a closed loop you'll find that the sum of all forces acting on the rotor is 0. Then you have loss in the bearings and air resistance. Gravity works the same way. It takes the same energy to lift an item 1 meter as it release when you drop the same item frim 1 meter high.

SMOT does seam to work because the SMOT is activated in just partial of the closed loop, and where the sum of all forces is greater than 0 - hence the promising result.

I'm afraid your idea will never work.

Br.

Vidar

Joh70 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 07, 2007, 02:37:37 PM »

Only for information: i beleave in gravity wheels! But i need more time, to proof it.

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:20:14 AM »

Low-Q:

I agree with what you state however I don't think you understand what I am proposing. I wish I had the drafting software to make up a sketch. When I say, "closed loop" with the SMOT, I intended to mean utilizing the very small amount of output from the SMOT to make the wheel go past the 12:00 position thereby effectively closing the loop for the cycle to begin again. I have been told the SMOT puts out very little, this should be all I need although you may be correct and this may not be enough. I don't believe it is possible to "overbalance" a wheel without a pulse from an exterior source. The SMOT was where I was thinking of obtaining this pulse. I know that the pulse created by the SMOT will be nulled by the "sticking point" unless gravity is used as in the videos I have seen. This is what I am proposing. Anyway, it won't take much time or money to explore this and I should have my materials by next week so, I will see. Equilibrium may still rule. If nothing else, it keeps me out of trouble. (Smile)

Bill

hansvonlieven · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:35:22 AM »

G'day Bill,

Have a look here.

http://student.ccbcmd.edu/%7Enorman/pendulumtonoon.mpg

Hans von Lieven

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:47:00 AM »

Hans:

Thanks for the video. I am not sure what he was attempting but that is not what I am proposing. I will try to build it next week and post some videos along the way. I can do that easier than to attempt to draw it. I can make good drawings but I have no easy way to digitize them. I see some people use ms paint on here. I have no idea how they do it. I have tried to draw using my mouse and it ends up looking like a drunken blind man had created it.

I may be going down yet another dead end but, I enjoy the trip each time. Thanks.

Bill

hansvonlieven · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:53:42 AM »

G'day Bill,

The point of the video is that this guy has figured out an arrangement where he enters the ramp without undue repulsion and gets past the point of natural swing, combine that with gravity and you might have something.

It is worthy of study and might be helpful with your proposal.

It's quite impressive though, don't you think?

Hans von Lieven

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2007, 01:04:47 AM »

Hans:

Yes, ok, now I see it. I first thought he had fiqured out a way to turn 3/4 of the way around, and that's all. Yes, this is exacly my point. to combine the SMOT or whatever you want to call it, with the gravity on the down side of the well balanced, low-friction, vertical wheel for just enough of a pulse or push to get past the zero position (12:00). I think I can do it with just four magnets in an adjustable "V" as in the SMOT. The sphere, or whatever shape I end up using, would be mounted on the circumference of the wheel. (As in 26" dia bicycle wheel and axle assembly) I was thinking that as the sphere would naturally begin to fall due to gravity on the downside (clockwise rotation) one might be able to adjust the magnets for a small pulse. If they are positioned correctly, I believe that as the sphere approaches the sticking point, the velocity from the pulse and the max gravity at the 3:00 position might carry it through. Also, I think one might be able to angle the assembly such that when the sphere approaches the maximum sticking point, the radius of the rotation would already be pulling it away from the assembly, somewhat replicating the SMOT where the sphere drops off the rail and "falls" out of the sticking spot.

I am going to view the video several more times to see what can be learned from it. Thanks Hans.

Bill

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2007, 02:07:01 AM »

Very, very crude drawing of what I am speaking about. Maybe this should be called 1/4 baked ideas?

Bill

(http://)

Low-Q · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2007, 07:17:52 PM »

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 08, 2007, 12:20:14 AM

Low-Q:

I agree with what you state however I don't think you understand what I am proposing. I wish I had the drafting software to make up a sketch. When I say, "closed loop" with the SMOT, I intended to mean utilizing the very small amount of output from the SMOT to make the wheel go past the 12:00 position thereby effectively closing the loop for the cycle to begin again. I have been told the SMOT puts out very little, this should be all I need although you may be correct and this may not be enough. I don't believe it is possible to "overbalance" a wheel without a pulse from an exterior source. The SMOT was where I was thinking of obtaining this pulse. I know that the pulse created by the SMOT will be nulled by the "sticking point" unless gravity is used as in the videos I have seen. This is what I am proposing. Anyway, it won't take much time or money to explore this and I should have my materials by next week so, I will see. Equilibrium may still rule. If nothing else, it keeps me out of trouble. (Smile)

Bill

The problem is that a SMOT, even a single one in your setup, will not work - because:

Lets say the rotor stops at 11:50 without the SMOT - as you probably already has discovered. I am quite sure the rotor will stop at the exact same place with a SMOT included. The SMOT will provide extra force to accelerate the rotor a little bit more, but not before 12:05 - 12:10 or so. Well the SMOT provides extra accceleration to the rotor at this state. No doubt about that. What you miss in your view however, is that it requires force to enter the SMOT as well. Maybe not at 11:50 to 12:00, but maybe at 11:30 to 11:50 or so. The rotor will accelerate from 11:50 to 12:10 because of the SMOT, but it will also deaccelerate equally between, let's say, 06:20 and 06:40, leaving the rotor in the same speed between 06:40 and 11:30 - as it was without the SMOT.

A SMOT is in sum of one revolution nothing more than a complex magnet that provides as much force as it provides counter force. If you could look at the magnetic fields of a SMOT if made infenitely small, the magnetic fields would act exactly like a single magnet. In other words, one single magnet would do the same job as a SMOT in the same device. Sorry, but thats how it works in real life.

Br.

Vidar

Low-Q · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2007, 07:27:15 PM »

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 08, 2007, 01:04:47 AM

Hans:

Yes, ok, now I see it. I first thought he had fiqured out a way to turn 3/4 of the way around, and that's all. Yes, this is exacly my point. to combine the SMOT or whatever you want to call it, with the gravity on the down side of the well balanced, low-friction, vertical wheel for just enough of a pulse or push to get past the zero position (12:00). I think I can do it with just four magnets in an adjustable "V" as in the SMOT. The sphere, or whatever shape I end up using, would be mounted on the circumference of the wheel. (As in 26" dia bicycle wheel and axle assembly) I was thinking that as the sphere would naturally begin to fall due to gravity on the downside (clockwise rotation) one might be able to adjust the magnets for a small pulse. If they are positioned correctly, I believe that as the sphere approaches the sticking point, the velocity from the pulse and the max gravity at the 3:00 position might carry it through. Also, I think one might be able to angle the assembly such that when the sphere approaches the maximum sticking point, the radius of the rotation would already be pulling it away from the assembly, somewhat replicating the SMOT where the sphere drops off the rail and "falls" out of the sticking spot.

I am going to view the video several more times to see what can be learned from it. Thanks Hans.

Bill

If this work, it will also work without gravity. The sum of gravity forces during one revolution is allways zero. So never mind the gravity in this setup at all. As I said, If it works, it does not matter what position you have your wheel. However, concidered my previous post, I do nok think the device will work anyway, but please try anyway. I don't think my thoughts will stop anyones curiousity - not even mine

Br.

Vidar

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:47:12 PM »

Low-Q:

I appreciate your responses to my proposal. I cannot disagree with your analysis at all. And yes, I have played with gravity wheels for a long time and you are correct. I have found that, alone it rotates from 12:00 to about 11:50. When I started adding different devices this improved, to a point and then, went the other way so it only went to about 10:00. I was/am just intriqued by the SMOT and was thinking I could steal just a little pulse from it. But, after reading your posts, I looked again at some of the SMOT videos and, yes, there appears to be some effort required when pushing the sphere into the begining of the magnet configuration. I had not accounted for this. So, if this is true, then the pulse I would get out of the SMOT would most likely be equal to the force required to enter the SMOT. I really hate when mother nature does this.

I am going to give it a go anyway just to see. Maybe I will accidently find something else out that will be useful while experimenting. Thanks again.

Bill

billmehess · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:50:07 PM »

The one factor that I believe you are all missing is that sure you could fire a ball from the smot to strike and hopefully push the unit past the stickey point but the problem is two fold:
1. The ball would hit with such little force that it would move nothing.
2. Also it would be could for only one time how do you reset the smot to "fire again". You would be better off using a gauss rifle effect. Much faster and stronger hit. But agin only good for one shot.
Bill

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2007, 01:09:02 AM »

Bill:

If you look at my very crude drawing posted above, you will see I am not planning on firing at anything. The sphere would be attached to the outside diameter of a low friction wheel (about 26" dia) on a mount that would allow very accurate height adjustments. This way, when the sphere enters the SMOT array, the firing would accelerate (in my weak theory) the sphere and therefore the wheel and the process would repeat itself. (hopefully) No requirement to reload the SMOT as it too is mounted in a 3 axis adjustable mounting that would also allow for angle adjustment as well. The question raised here, and it's a good one, is will the energy required to allow the sphere into the SMOT array be equal to the pulse of the SMOT. I wish my materials were here already so I could begin to experiment. Thank you for your reply and your input.

Bill

Freezer · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2007, 01:53:17 AM »

I can understand what you are saying, being that gravity would over-come the force out of the array. It still comes down to equal pressures in and out. Even though gravity is pulling down on that side, its also pulling down the other side which equals out. Perhaps we need a combination of a smot, gravity wheel, and perhaps something else all together. Maybe even use the Finsruf mechanism, just mounted 90' degrees. I'm currently trying to model the Cambel gravity wheel in 3d, and try and work out a simpler mechanism. I'm gonna try incorporate all the techniques from all 4 designs into one. Maybe we could use the expertise of those guys who build pin-ball machine mechanisms.

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Author Topic: Low friction gravity wheel utilizing SMOT for pulse boost (Read 17562 times)

Pirate88179

Low friction gravity wheel utilizing SMOT for pulse boost

Low-Q

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Joh70

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Pirate88179

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hansvonlieven

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Pirate88179

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hansvonlieven

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Pirate88179

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Pirate88179

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Low-Q

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Low-Q

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Pirate88179

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billmehess

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Pirate88179

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Freezer

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