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Author Topic: Successful TPU-ECD replication !  (Read 1147918 times)

Jeff B

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1215 on: November 09, 2007, 11:39:29 AM »
@Otto

Yes I agree with most of that.
Probably my statement was too condensed, without any real explanations of my thoughts behind my (brief) statement.

Firstly - In the end, Everything WILL Be SINE WAVE - Agreed.
Nature runs on Sinewaves, not Square.

Probably, what I meant was more along the lines that a Square Wave contains ALL (sinewave) frequencies, therefore the correct one for the TPU will be in the mix somewhere - We just have to find the Exact ones, and get them in workable levels.
The square wave was just a convenient way to inject something that was required in to the coils.

My statement (about the tube amp) of ""Throw enough power into it until we get something out"" is probably most of what has been rolling around in my head for a long time now.

But your reply showed me more of your thinking on this...
You have been concerned that every time you got close to the correct frequencies, the levels coming back blew the guts out of your Fets.
Valve are a perfect choice to replace them - No argument here.

But - I would like to say this:
My suggestion is to Forget about trying to create a Valve Oscillator - just for the short term.
Use your signal generator (sinewave) to do the frequency, and the amp for the power & robustness to deliver it to the coil.
This will save lots of time trying to create oscillators, and give you stable frequencies to test with.
 - Just for Ease of use, and Time/Labor savings -
This would allow you to concentrate on what the TPU is doing, rather than what your oscillator circuit is doing.
Basic oscillators can drift off frequency, which will make it harder for you to pin-point the correct freq's, if you can't stay on them.
Once you've found the frequencies required, then spend your time re-building your valve circuit to be the oscillator.

I don't want you to think I'm against using the valves for the power levels either, I just think that Massive Power injections WON'T be necessary one you find the right freq's.

Also, I still believe that if you took a small feedback coil from the TPU & used it for your valve input, the Natural Resonant Frequency might show itself in there somewhere. Some filtering might be required to limit/narrow down the used freq's.
Possibly, you might need several feedback coils with their own filters, to pick off the multiple freq's required - but it might just help show you what you're looking for. (??)  :-\

If the TPU took off, and the gain hit the roof, so what - It won't blow the valve !
At that point, you could pull back the gain of the amp, until you find out how much/little drive is really required.

Keep up the good work.
Jeff.

PS: I would NEVER mention Batteries...

otto

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1216 on: November 09, 2007, 12:50:49 PM »
@Jeff

Yes, youre right: squares contains ALL sinewave frequencies. And this is what I DONT need.

About the .."enough power in until we get something out" ....I SAW THE POWER DELIVERED FROM A LITTLE 6" TPU!!!! AMAZING, NEVER SEEN BEFORE!!

I see youre a fast one like Im. Yes, I will work on my SS oscillators to get sine waves and I will work on my tubes to also have tube sine waves oscillators. A double work. No problem!! I have time and Im willing to do ANY needed job to finish my TPU.

You think the TPU wont blow the tubes??? HA!!!! If not the tubes, then everything connected to the TPU, as always: bulbs, scope....

@All

As I have a lot of time on my workplace (thanks God) Im reading the SMs papers (again). What I saw??

I SAW THAT IM A BIG IDIOT.

I IGNORED "MY" MASTERS WORDS:

COLLECTOR: it is 3 separate coils of multistrand copper wire (why have I only 2???) laid one of top of the other (here a little secret: height of the TPU 44mm. Distance between the collectors = 22mm)
not interlieved. 3 is important. You can do many things with 3 coils: you can run them in paralel.....(its a Mobius)

CONTROL: vertically wound in several segments (3 as I see in my tests) arround EACH of the horizontal collector coils( Arround each is for a better "contact" of the collector - control setup). Other control WIRES are wound arround ALL of the horizontal collector coils together (yes, it looks Im old and forgot this coils).

Now there is only 1 problem: the construction!! Dont even think that a TPU is mechanically wound in an "oridinary" way. Dont forget that we need a vibration.Hmmm....vibration. Lets think about this: with square wave kicks I never saw or could hear a vibration but with sine waves....with a special coil winding technique its not a problem to have vibrations.

Please, dont even think I have some "special" informations. NO WAY. The point is that even when I see a coil I want to pulse it. As we all know our master was a TV repair man in the early days of tubes, and a TV has a deflection coil and this coil is GLUED to the screen....you know why??? It would vibrate away!!! The outer coil of a deflection coil is 44mm high, the distance between the cathode and plate in my 12AU7 (ECC82) tube is 22mm....but all this you already know.

Otto


giantkiller

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1217 on: November 09, 2007, 05:39:59 PM »
Post deleted.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 05:45:01 AM by giantkiller »

acerzw

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1218 on: November 09, 2007, 07:19:44 PM »
<removed>
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 07:58:41 PM by acerzw »

John M

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1219 on: November 09, 2007, 07:27:18 PM »
Unfortunately I have allot to learn yet. I still want to stick with SS for now which I have started. I am trying to fuse, isolate the circuitry as best I can to prevent having to replace my MOSFETS.Using sine waves instead of square waves might help alleviate blowing up parts.

Is there an advantage to using iron wire as the collector as compared to copper?

Its great that there are people here that you can learn from.

John

giantkiller

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1220 on: November 09, 2007, 08:05:18 PM »
Unfortunately I have allot to learn yet. I still want to stick with SS for now which I have started. I am trying to fuse, isolate the circuitry as best I can to prevent having to replace my MOSFETS.Using sine waves instead of square waves might help alleviate blowing up parts.

Is there an advantage to using iron wire as the collector as compared to copper?

Its great that there are people here that you can learn from.

John

2 things, Sir,
I am strictly SS. It works, square or sine. If you have noise that will trigger the FETS on also. That is the initial reason they fry. Try pull down res also on gates. Run with ATV batteries.
I used iron wire because SM mentioned it and I saw the application of a malleable, totally programmable core. I wanted to increase the copper mass in my next build back in Feb and was given warnings about the danger. After that the ECD appeared with smaller stranded collectors in the ECD model. See that? Then after that the PVC notched coil appears by Marco with a copper collector of smaller mass. See that?


JDO300 and I have FET driven ECDs by the ECD pdf spec. My driver circuitry is suspended in the middle while the pulse circuitry is external.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg37616.html#msg37616
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg38485.html#msg38485
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg39888.html#msg39888
And the completed unit:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg40183.html#msg40183
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg41706.html#msg41706

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg46197.html#msg46197

Here is a head start, Enjoy:



--giantkiller. I love uncontrolled power!

innovation_station

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1221 on: November 09, 2007, 08:26:01 PM »
i know there is only 1 place to start and i aint saying it agin lol ;)

well just 1 more time Tubes  in fact perhaps people wait for YOU the HERO to walk the path the right way lol


ist

the HERO  lies with in us all  ;)

ahhhh gk

lol

so skip the tubes lol    :)  but you must compleat at least 1 of sm's unit to understand it  then fumble around the finished unit it is a tricky one  ;)

then  well  lol  hummmmm     remember thease words    SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND!!



turbo

  • Guest
Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1222 on: November 09, 2007, 09:22:59 PM »
@Otto


But - I would like to say this:
My suggestion is to Forget about trying to create a Valve Oscillator - just for the short term.
Use your signal generator (sinewave) to do the frequency, and the amp for the power & robustness to deliver it to the coil.
This will save lots of time trying to create oscillators, and give you stable frequencies to test with.
 - Just for Ease of use, and Time/Labor savings -

Jeff.

PS: I would NEVER mention Batteries...

oops wrong turn....
it is tubes you need.
and batteries too, no i mean two  ;D
you need two seperate controllable DC sources.

This is important to create the MDC
The MDC is a polarized DC wave in one direction yet constantly changing.
It is a sine wave like classic AC but it never reverses.
MDC stands for MODULATED DIRECT CURRENT always dropping and rising but never reverses.

You can create this type of current simply by taking an AC wave and switch it in series with a DC source, the AC signal now simply ADDS on top of the DC source.
For example we take a 9 volt AC sine wave and we switch it in series with a 9 volt batterie,
The resulting wave will be cycling between zero and 18 volts but it will never REVERSE it's direction.
in other words ,it does not alternate like AC does , but it does cause induction ,the field is still always changing.

you cannot create an MDC wave with one source because you cannot add the same source in series with itself....this is why two DC sources are needed.

The output of the tpu was called ADC, Alternating Direct Current , i prefer to call it MDC

the same thing applies to tubes, some people forget tubes are still DIODES.
Diodes conduct in one way only.

if we want to amplify let's say a signal from a microphone, which puts out AC signal, we cannot feed this directly into the tube because it will only handle one half of the AC signal.

Therefore we switch in again the DC source in series with the mic so it becomes polarized and the AC signal simply adds to the DC and again we have our MDC which the tube can handle, it is always positive or negative.

The dancing magnet video i made was created with this type of current.
It was fed an AC 5 volt signal in series with a 12 volt DC current.
The resulting wave was cycling between + 7 and +17 volt always positive but yet it caused the effect.

@GK,
My images you posted are wrong.

Marco.


acerzw

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1223 on: November 09, 2007, 09:33:31 PM »
<removed>
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 07:59:34 PM by acerzw »

innovation_station

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1224 on: November 09, 2007, 10:18:14 PM »
when we get to the finished model shall we call it curculating current ?


hummmm     or natural current ?  hey why not go all the way and call it what it  is the wheel work of nature lol


ist

Jeff B

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1225 on: November 10, 2007, 08:40:56 AM »
@Otto


My suggestion is ...............
..................
..................

Jeff.

PS: I would NEVER mention Batteries...

oops wrong turn....
it is tubes you need.
and batteries too, no i mean two  ;D
you need two seperate controllable DC sources.



Marco.



Ha Ha       *grin*

Actually, I thought Otto was refering to hidden batteries in a TPU.
(Nothing to do with what type of supply).

Jeff.

turbo

  • Guest
Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1226 on: November 10, 2007, 09:36:00 AM »
Nothing to do ay?
i just added that because i know there are some folks that find this intresting.
Jou Sugest to take the SS route because you think it will save you time ,and i sugest you use TUBES.

M.



Jeff B

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1227 on: November 10, 2007, 10:16:57 AM »
@Marco

Nothing to do ay?
i just added that because i know there are some folks that find this intresting.
Jou Sugest to take the SS route because you think it will save you time ,and i sugest you use TUBES.

M.

Otto was trying to make a tube oscillator to power the coils.
I was meaning use the SS for frequency generation, and the Tubes to amplify & deliver to the coils.
I didn't mean SS for both the freq AND the amp.
I'm in favour of the valves to power the coils.

Jeff.

Jeff B

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1228 on: November 10, 2007, 10:57:32 AM »

.... you need two seperate controllable DC sources.

This is important to create the MDC
The MDC is a polarized DC wave in one direction yet constantly changing.
It is a sine wave like classic AC but it never reverses.
MDC stands for MODULATED DIRECT CURRENT always dropping and rising but never reverses.

You can create this type of current simply by taking an AC wave and switch it in series with a DC source, the AC signal now simply ADDS on top of the DC source.
For example we take a 9 volt AC sine wave and we switch it in series with a 9 volt batterie,
The resulting wave will be cycling between zero and 18 volts but it will never REVERSE it's direction.
in other words ,it does not alternate like AC does , but it does cause induction ,the field is still always changing.

you cannot create an MDC wave with one source because you cannot add the same source in series with itself....this is why two DC sources are needed.

The output of the tpu was called ADC, Alternating Direct Current , i prefer to call it MDC

the same thing applies to tubes, some people forget tubes are still DIODES.
Diodes conduct in one way only.

if we want to amplify let's say a signal from a microphone, which puts out AC signal, we cannot feed this directly into the tube because it will only handle one half of the AC signal.

Therefore we switch in again the DC source in series with the mic so it becomes polarized and the AC signal simply adds to the DC and again we have our MDC which the tube can handle, it is always positive or negative.

The dancing magnet video i made was created with this type of current.
It was fed an AC 5 volt signal in series with a 12 volt DC current.
The resulting wave was cycling between + 7 and +17 volt always positive but yet it caused the effect.

@GK,
My images you posted are wrong.

Marco.



A thought -

Re: MDC:

Your comments about needing MDC for the TPU are intersting.
The constant DC condition put on the coil will result in the coil being polarised, like an electromagnet.
ie: it will have a North & South pole (somewhere, decided by the winding of the coil).

In one (or more) of the SM videos, he starts the coil by inserting 2 magnets.

So here's what I'm thinking -
Are the 2 magnets creating the same effect as your DC offset (contained in the MDC).

At a glance, This would appear to correspond.
It would also mean that you could just inject an AC sinewave into the coil, as the polarisation is already in place - by the magnets.
I wouldn't think that the AC would overide the polarisation, as I doubt if you could completely cancel out the magnets force.

The stronger the magnets, the stronger the polarisation.

What are your thoughts ?  ::)

Jeff.

turbo

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Re: Successful TPU-ECD replication !
« Reply #1229 on: November 10, 2007, 01:14:05 PM »
What do you think will happen if you feed a dirty signal from a SS generator into a nice and clean Tube amp?
Do you really think the Tube amp is going to get rid of the dirt?
Personally i think this nice Tube amp will Amplify the dirt!!!
You need three EXACT frequencies running so use tubes.

Steven said the use of the magnets are not necessary as used in a few of the units.
There were different designs.
some designs were based on different control and start up systems.

The magnets were placed on what he calls "receptors"
I do not know what was their purpose but i do know that on the yoke the magnets are used to set up a carefully balanced magnetic field which helps to drive the electron beam.

M.