Author Topic: Is it possible to combine a voltage source with a current source ? (Read 4280 times)

fxeconomist · « **on:** February 18, 2023, 08:57:05 PM »

I was looking today at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voHGyN93Ru4

The guy tries to disprove Bedini, but what I like about the video is the way he extracts back EMF from a coil. The coil is connected to a 12 V battery thru a manually operated switch and is isolated between two diodes, and the back EMF is supposedly charging very quickly a 300 V capacitor.

I understand these back EMF spikes have a lot of voltage, but probably not too many amps.

So I was thinking, what if on the other side we would have a motor powering a homopolar generator. One disk between two magnets, electrically insulated from the shaft.

Can we combine this high amps current from the homopolar generator with the high voltage provided by the EMF spikes from the coil and provide this to a load ?

I've seen materials about combining power sources, and yes they say you can only combine voltage sources in series and current sources in parallel, but how do we combine a source of voltage with one of current ?

Kinda like this ?

Dog-One · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2023, 04:50:32 AM »

Quote from: fxeconomist on February 18, 2023, 08:57:05 PM

I've seen materials about combining power sources, and yes they say you can only combine voltage sources in series and current sources in parallel, but how do we combine a source of voltage with one of current ?

If you have two power sources, say something like this:

PS1: 500V @ 0.5A, 250W
PS2: 3V @ 100A, 300W

Then what you would be seeking to do is take advantage of the 500 volts
and the 100 amps and combine them to get 500 volts at 100 amps, or
50K watts. That's a lot of juice starting with only 550 watts input. There's
a wrong way also where you get 3 volts at 0.5 amps for only 1.5 watts.
Probably not what you really want.

It's my understanding a mixing device has to use amperage to get
voltage by way of magnetic induction and also use voltage to get
amperage by way of electrostatic induction.

Attached is a Google translated Russian device that supposedly does
this by some means of which I would have to build and test to know
if it's legitimate or not. The concept on the surface seems plausible,
where you have a capacitor and inductor all in one device--one of
many coil/cap devices I have seen over the years.

The major problem I see with back EMF devices is that no one looks
at the time intervals and they only focus on the output. For example,
if you pour 12 volts @ 5 amps into a coil for 1ms, then release it to
get a spike of 200 volts @ 1 amp, at first glance this looks like a power
gain, but is it? Instantaneously it would be, but the output spike doesn't
last for a full 1ms; it may only be present for 300us. So wattage poured
in over time compared to wattage harvested over the same internal is
going to roughly end up balancing if you include losses. It's this behavior
that has turned me to thinking the only way to get an energy generator
is that we somehow have to trick time. We have to be able to charge
a capacitor with a fixed voltage and limited amperage faster than we
discharge that same capacitor with the same limited amperage. If we
can figure out a way to do this, we're in business.

Dog-One · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2023, 06:29:30 PM »

fxeconomist · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2023, 10:29:17 PM »

Quote from: Dog-One on February 19, 2023, 06:29:30 PM

.

This is what I told a guy on youtube. This guy just made one and got to 60 amps.
I really got myself thinking around this problem, because all say that we cannot combine a voltage source with a current source, so I thought about getting volts induced at the same time with amps...

"1. First of all, Faraday also made a unipolar dynamo. Just the disk rotating with one magnet. Run the experiment. See what we get.

2. Returning to homopolar. Changing the disk into a pancake copper spiral. That means both center and side brushes will always be in contact. Run a DC pulsed voltage thru the brushes, collect the EMF along with the homopolar amps.

3. If the unipolar worked and gave amps, replace one of the magnets with a stationary magnet exposing both poles. By rotating the other with the pancake coil - not given any DC - it should also work like a normal inductor, induce voltage in the pancake coil, and getting amps from the relative stationary magnet (if the first experiment worked).

4. If it didin't work, we can imagine a new copper coil, which exposes more coil surface to the sides. Increasing the distance between the magnets can be avoided, this exposure would occur at higher diameter, towards stationary rounded magnets on the sides. This should create AC voltage at the same time with homopolar amps...
"

floodrod · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2023, 10:45:43 PM »

This may sound remedial, but my bet is the majority of electrical professionals cannot answer all of the simple questions I propose below.

In the simple diagram, I send 12 volts through a resistor. Current from the battery will be able to be calculated VIA ohm's law.

Now I turn on variable power supply. I increase variable power supply voltage until current starts to flow. Now we check amperage draw from battery when current is flowing from power supply.

1. Can you make amperage flow from two sources at same time?
2. Or Will amperage only flow out of the higher source?
3. Does ohm's law still work when using two sources?
4. If it does not work, is higher source actually putting out the calculated power?

If power supply says 16 volts, will current coming from supply be calculated with 4 volts, because 16 is 4 higher than 12?

If so, is power supply really only putting out four volts even though display says 16 volts? Are we getting ghost readings?

Are we actually wasting power? Are we wasting 12 volts multiplied by amperage because of second source? Even though second source is not sending current?

Finally, can we find these answers easily in textbooks?

I have done these tests without the diodes. I will be repeating these tests with the diodes to block power from going to the other source to see if the results change.

Your question basically asks if anyone has created a free energy machine. Although there are claims, I think the majority consensus is none were able to be repeated reliably by others.

The bench is our best friend. I believe the textbooks will only teach us so much, but we need live bench testing to fully understand the very nature of the beast. Then maybe we will learn how to alter the chain of events to manipulate and tame the beast.

fxeconomist · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2023, 11:38:29 PM »

Quote from: floodrod on February 19, 2023, 10:45:43 PM

I have done these tests without the diodes. I will be repeating these tests with the diodes to block power from going to the other source to see if the results change.

So, without diodes, what were the results ?

floodrod · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2023, 12:25:15 AM »

Edit- My setup was different.. I had the resistor between the 2 hot leads.- In that configuration- Without diodes, current will not flow out of the power supply till voltage is higher than the 12V batteries voltage. And Current will calculate as if we are only sending the differential, but in reality we are sending the full monte.. Verified with wall watt meters several different ways. I will be testing the way I proposed next.. But I am pretty sure the diodes will be making a big difference.

My point was though, you present complex questions and chain of events, which is great to tackle.. But I recommend bench testing each piece. No one is going to be able to instruct you how to accomplish this task.

"We collect the EMF along with the homopolar amps"

Ok, so "Collect the amps".. So Homopolar generator out lead to a positive of a capacitor or battery? Amps go into the storage device--> then what comes out of the negative of the storage device? We collected amps, but now the same amount of amps came out.. Where do those amps go? It won't collect anything with an open circuit.

Do we send the negative of the collection device to another positive terminal? If so, again- amps come out of that negative. Eventually the collected amps need to connect to the negative of the source battery.. SO in the end, any amps we "collect" result in the exact same amount of amps going to the Negative terminal of the source..

And what happens when we put amperage into the negative terminal? The exact same amount come out the positive. because amps are always equal in a closed circuit. Basically what I am saying, you may get some charge in a collection device, but by robbing peter. Ultimately, it all came out of the source.

I personally "believe" there are reactions that cause a circuit to make extra potential. (and some pretty easy to create).. And I believe my roadblock preventing me from OU is basically what I explained above. Along with other snafu's.

fxeconomist · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2023, 12:41:35 AM »

Quote from: floodrod on February 20, 2023, 12:25:15 AM

Do we send the negative of the collection device to another positive terminal? If so, again- amps come out of that negative. Eventually the collected amps need to connect to the negative of the source battery.. SO in the end, any amps we "collect" result in the exact same amount of amps going to the Negative terminal of the source..

And what happens when we put amperage into the negative terminal? The exact same amount come out the positive. because amps are always equal in a closed circuit. Basically what I am saying, you may get some charge in a collection device, but by robbing peter. Ultimately, it all came out of the source.

I personally "believe" there are reactions that cause a circuit to make extra potential. (and some pretty easy to create).. And I believe my roadblock preventing me from OU is basically what I explained above. Along with other snafu's.

But if storage doesn't work, we can simply provide this to a runtime, working load. After all, one of the reasons of targeting free energy is to avoid battery reliance, right ?

floodrod · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2023, 12:48:23 AM »

Lol, I had to try with the diodes..

It can be balanced and split.. If the Supply is putting out the same amount as the battery, the current splits. 1/2 from the battery, 1/2 from the supply. As you raise the supply, the battery puts out less amps and the supply puts more. Raise supply high enough and the supply takes over and battery amps go to zero.

Resistor still received wattage dictated by Ohms Law, And it is possible to split that wattage between 2 sources in varying amounts.

fxeconomist · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2023, 12:55:41 AM »

Quote from: floodrod on February 20, 2023, 12:48:23 AM

Lol, I had to try with the diodes..

Resistor still received wattage dictated by Ohms Law, And it is possible to split that wattage between 2 sources in varying amounts.

I don't understand how it applies, because we have two sides, with two different voltages. How much was the voltage past the resistor, how many ohms was the resistor and how much did the source on right gave, given the battery was 12 V ? Say in the example with 16 V on the right.

floodrod · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2023, 01:25:58 AM »

Quote from: fxeconomist on February 20, 2023, 12:55:41 AM

I don't understand how it applies, because we have two sides, with two different voltages. How much was the voltage past the resistor, how many ohms was the resistor and how much did the source on right gave, given the battery was 12 V ? Say in the example with 16 V on the right.

Battery was charged to 5.8V. When Supply was at 5.8V, amperage split evenly. I raise supply slowly, and supply starts supplying more amps and battery less and less. At 6.1 volts, battery stopped supplying amperage and PS took over completely. Voltage through resistor was changing, I did not calculate every increment.. Without diodes, it changes. Now sources can absorb amperage.

Edit- OK I measured voltage in the resistor. The resistor voltage never exceeds the power supply voltage. Always under from VD of the diode.

floodrod · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2023, 02:15:19 AM »

fxeconomist · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2023, 06:55:39 PM »

Quote from: floodrod on February 20, 2023, 02:15:19 AM

...

I figured it out. It should in principle work. Homopolar generator with pancake spiral coil instead of the disk. One brush on the side of the coil and one on the shaft - shaft will have to be insulated from motor. Then we pulse DC voltage thru, and collect the back EMF. The back EMF should have INDUCED VOLTAGE AND AMPS at the same time, as amp induction works differently than Faraday's induction. There may just a marginal interaction between the two. Gotta try this, and how the hell am I gonna build it ?

Rafael Ti · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2023, 09:58:16 PM »

Quote from: fxeconomist on February 18, 2023, 08:57:05 PM

but how do we combine a source of voltage with one of current?

Interesting..
You can combine them in the way you want, however you will need to use Kirchhoff current laws beside the Ohm law to calculate V and I in particular points and branches of the circuit.
Also there is no ideal current or voltage source - in real world they are all non linear for a variable load and voltage; the current source starts showing nonlinearity from some level of voltage btw it's legs, similarly the voltage source starts the same from some value of emitting current - therefore all voltage supplies become current sources starting gently from certain level of output amperage and lowering their output voltage at the same time. In most cases this is intentional design to prevent supply from blowing up with heavy loads.
All voltage sources and batteries have their output resistance/impedance which may cause current imblance. In the case shown on the sketch by floodrod /with the battery, voltage supply and resistor/ you can use two current sources /or current mirror/ instead of diodes to balance these both currents or even set up the constant proportion btw them. The current source has it's minimal voltage drop below which it won't work, say 2 Volts, a bit more than a diode... Depends what do you want to obtain.

synchro1 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2023, 11:47:45 PM »

It is very important to understand fully that Ohms law only applies to current in a "Single Conductor" between two points.

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Author Topic: Is it possible to combine a voltage source with a current source ? (Read 4280 times)

fxeconomist

Is it possible to combine a voltage source with a current source ?

Dog-One

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