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Author Topic: Two kinds of induction - Henry  (Read 6505 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 03:18:15 PM »
The center of the Toroid can be viewed as both inside and outside the Toroid; Both magnetic poles show up next to each other inside the center of the Toroid, which is actually a space outside the Toroid! A paradox!

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 03:18:15 PM »

Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 04:18:25 PM »
Whoah. Hold you horses..   That is Tinman in that vid.   He shows induction to the top black coil from the toroid coil.  But later in the vid he says the core is a speaker magnet. :o :o :o And then claims he doesnt think the speaker magnets flux has anything to do with it. ::)   It has everything to do with it. Its like a solidstate orbo. The windings on the toroid when not powered up do not affect the magnets field. So running a signal through the toroid winding definitely alters the magnets field and the moving magnets field is causing the induction to the top secondary coil.
Mags

What you're saying makes no sense, field of the ferrite and field of the coil are at 90° to each other, no interaction, if so minimal.

Like Jon wrote in the comments:

"It is the electric field you are measuring and not the magnetic field. One clue to this is the angular difference of your coils, one is looping with the core (secondary,measuring coil)  and one is going against the core (primary winding).
 I am of the opinion that the electric field is responsible for all induction and that the magnetic field is in this case is locked within the core unless you saturate the core."

actually, primary is not going "against the core" but he made a good point.

or it can be explained in terms of A field

http://freenrg.info/Physics/Scalar_Vector_Pot_And_Rick_Andersen/Rick_Andersen_Ortho.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 06:32:40 PM by nix85 »

Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 04:23:33 PM »
The center of the Toroid can be viewed as both inside and outside the Toroid; Both magnetic poles show up next to each other inside the center of the Toroid, which is actually a space outside the Toroid! A paradox!

there are no poles inside the toroid, poles can exist only if field is opened. im sure that is what u meant by saying "next to each other".

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 04:23:33 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 05:10:29 PM »
...

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2020, 12:14:08 AM »
What you're saying makes no sense, field of the ferrite and field of the coil are at 90° to each other, no interaction, if so minimal.

Like Jon wrote in the comments:

"It is the electric field you are measuring and not the magnetic field. One clue to this is the angular difference of your coils, one is looping with the core (secondary,measuring coil)  and one is going against the core (primary winding).
 I am of the opinion that the electric field is responsible for all induction and that the magnetic field is in this case is locked within the core unless you saturate the core."

actually, primary is not going "against the core" but he made a good point.

or it can be explained in terms of A field

http://freenrg.info/Physics/Scalar_Vector_Pot_And_Rick_Andersen/Rick_Andersen_Ortho.html

At 3:55 in the vid, Brad states that the core in the toroid coil is a speaker magnet.  That means when the toroid coil when powered alters the magnets field, and that moving field from the magnet when the signal is on the toroid winding, is inducing the top secondary coil.  Look at the number of turns on the toroid and then the seemingly much fewer turns on the secondary. The step up voltage of the secondary is very high compared to the input to the toroid winding. I got the same effects with my solid state orbo. Using a drive coil to alter a magnets field so that the magnets field induces the secondary winding.
Just dont know why Brad said the core being a magnet should not affect the results, Im guessing in comparison to just a normal ferite core.  Try it,  Use a non magnetized core and then use a speaker magnet. You will see I am correct. ;) ;D
Mags

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2020, 12:14:08 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2020, 01:54:20 AM »
At 3:55 in the vid, Brad states that the core in the toroid coil is a speaker magnet.  That means when the toroid coil when powered alters the magnets field..

Once again, field of the toroid is at 90° to field of the magnet, this means they do not see each other and there goes your theory down the drain.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2020, 04:38:19 AM »
Once again, field of the toroid is at 90° to field of the magnet, this means they do not see each other and there goes your theory down the drain.

Well sure the toroid coil field is 90 deg of the 'magnet' core field..  If the speaker magnet is say N field up, no input to the toroid winding, is the field of the magnet crossing the top secondary coil??  Is it in proximity to the secondary coil??  Now power up the toroid winding with AC signal. That magnet field will appear and disappear on the secondary and inducing currents in the secondary.


Here is my solid state orbo where a toroid coil alters a magnets field to induce a secondary winding. It is virtually the same thing and I understand it very well as to how it works. Without the magnets, there is no mutual induction of the toroid primary winding to the standard winding. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ljx1py-BUs


Here is another vid I did using the toroid winding to make the core invisible to the rotor magnet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ


And here is a version that uses a toroid coil on a toroid core showing attraction and repulsion of the rotor magnets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KpppPqwRk


So now..  Show me your videos on this subject and lets see what you really know about all this other than just taking Brads word for it as to the idea that the speaker magnet does not play into the equation in the vid you present. He was very wrong to make the claim that the speaker magnet is only acting like a toroid ferite core. It has everything to do with the outcome he had shown in that vid. ;) If it were just a ferite core he would not get the same results. No way no how. :P



Mags

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2020, 04:38:19 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2020, 05:37:54 AM »
Well sure the toroid coil field is 90 deg of the 'magnet' core field..  If the speaker magnet is say N field up, no input to the toroid winding, is the field of the magnet crossing the top secondary coil??  Is it in proximity to the secondary coil??  Now power up the toroid winding with AC signal. That magnet field will appear and disappear on the secondary and inducing currents in the secondary...

first of all i suggest u to lose the silly emojis

for the third time, two magnetic fields at 90° do not see each other. so ur "explanation" "toroid makes the magnet invisible" just dont cut it.

we are talking interaction of orthogonal magnetic fields which should not happen, just like ordinary transformer should not work since flux is inside the core and does not cut a single wire of the secondary..

it all comes down to interactions of the A-FIELDs, of the etheric smoke rings i linked above.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2020, 06:56:30 AM »
first of all i suggest u to lose the silly emojis

for the third time, two magnetic fields at 90° do not see each other. so ur "explanation" "toroid makes the magnet invisible" just dont cut it.

we are talking interaction of orthogonal magnetic fields which should not happen, just like ordinary transformer should not work since flux is inside the core and does not cut a single wire of the secondary..

it all comes down to interactions of the A-FIELDs, of the etheric smoke rings i linked above.

Ill use emojis as I see fit. ;D   

I dont follow etheric smoke rings. I follow flux cutting for induction. 

To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance. :o


In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting. When we look at just the field of a single straight wire and apply current, the field emanates from the wire itself. If we gradually bring a core near the powered wire, are you saying all of the wires field will just appear in the core and there will no longer be any field around the wire? ??? ::)

Below is a pdf of what I follow. In a toroid, all the induction action happens in the hole of the core. The flux from the primary crosses the hole of the core and induces the sec. The same for an Ecore from the center to the outer parts of the core. Its all pretty simple and your making it all too complex. What advantage do you have with your way compared to my way?  What can you do using your understanding vs my understanding that makes things any easier or help you do things that I cannot do?  Pretty much nothing really.

Brads vid is a sham.  Honestly if he did know that the magnet does as I explained it does, then he is also a liar.  If he didnt know at the time( some years ago) then he was clearly mistaken with his test and just didnt know any better at the time. Either way, what he has shown has nothing to do with fuzzy clouds that you embellish and has everything to do with the toroid winding altering the core speaker magnets field of which is inducing the voltage in the top secondary by way of flux cutting.

Show me the same experiment Brad had shown with just a normal ferite core nonmagnetized and your results on the secondary will never do what brad has shown. Cannot happen.  If you disagree, then show me. You will have to prove that the core is not a magnet.

Mags
 

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2020, 06:56:30 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2020, 12:31:32 PM »
Hi Mags,


You are wasting your time here.  Nix85 only believes what he sees on YouTube.  He refuses to consider that what is shown on YouTube might be wrong.


Carroll

Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
Ill use emojis as I see fit. ;D   

I dont follow etheric smoke rings. I follow flux cutting for induction. 

To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance. :o


In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting. When we look at just the field of a single straight wire and apply current, the field emanates from the wire itself. If we gradually bring a core near the powered wire, are you saying all of the wires field will just appear in the core and there will no longer be any field around the wire? ??? ::)

Below is a pdf of what I follow. In a toroid, all the induction action happens in the hole of the core. The flux from the primary crosses the hole of the core and induces the sec. The same for an Ecore from the center to the outer parts of the core. Its all pretty simple and your making it all too complex. What advantage do you have with your way compared to my way?  What can you do using your understanding vs my understanding that makes things any easier or help you do things that I cannot do?  Pretty much nothing really.

Brads vid is a sham.  Honestly if he did know that the magnet does as I explained it does, then he is also a liar.  If he didnt know at the time( some years ago) then he was clearly mistaken with his test and just didnt know any better at the time. Either way, what he has shown has nothing to do with fuzzy clouds that you embellish and has everything to do with the toroid winding altering the core speaker magnets field of which is inducing the voltage in the top secondary by way of flux cutting.

Show me the same experiment Brad had shown with just a normal ferite core nonmagnetized and your results on the secondary will never do what brad has shown. Cannot happen.  If you disagree, then show me. You will have to prove that the core is not a magnet.

Mags

first of all, that video is irrelevant, its just one of many examples, no need to to mention or try to defame that guy brad.

"To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance"

that totally does not follow from anything i said. with air core flux is not contained in the core, and it freely cuts the wires.

"In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting"

that is almost totally untrue, its not even a question that magnetic field of the toroid is almost perfectly contained within itself, basic experiment with iron powder (which i already posted on first page) shows clearly field outside the toroid is zero for all pratical purposes, the very reason they are used for shielding in radio amps, eliminating the need for grounded metal cages.

same goes for transformer core unless there is an airgap or it has sharp corners (as most do) in which case SOME leakage does occur, but that happens not under the secondary and is by orders of magnitude too small to account even for a fraction of the induced voltage.

for all practical purposes it IS contained in the core, yet voltage is induced in the wires which never see that MAGNETIC flux....

and we came back to the more subtle energy, which u try to dodge but can never dodge it since it is mother and father of the so called magnetic field, the A-FIELD, the etheric substrata.

as for that troll, i dont believe or go by any videos, i go by centuries of hard research and reason.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 12:42:08 AM »
Or maybe its like this below.

From the pdf of my last post


Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2020, 12:47:31 AM »
The text of the pdf explains the flux cutting version that answers many questions on this very subject.
I highly recommend the read. Goes into details of why and why not.  Took me a few reads to get a full grip. Once it sinks in.....

Mags

Offline nix85

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2020, 01:44:42 AM »
sure, few lines might leak, but, like i said, this could never account for the induced voltage, by orders of magnitude.

induction happens through more subtle force than what is called magnetism

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2020, 02:59:09 AM »
sure, few lines might leak, but, like i said, this could never account for the induced voltage, by orders of magnitude.

induction happens through more subtle force than what is called magnetism
nooo!  ;D   not a few lines. Any flux that the core accepts crosses that hole in the core. The windings of say a primary on the left and a secondary on the right for visual purposes, all of the field of the primary that engages the core in full core loop, had to cross that hole. and in that hole are the parts of the winding that get the densest flux as the very outside parts of the toroid winding are not playing as big a part in the self induction and or mutual induction. There may be a lot of wasted wire in our windings causing more series resistance than we might know about. Probably the best core would be a completely enclosed core. Only openings for wire leads. Anyway..
Ive been through this discussion  but it was the E field that they claimed was the actual current flow inducing factor, not flux cutting. 

Thing for me about, well, all that, is it just isnt tangible for me. The only thing that is tangible is the magnetic field. The E field only appears when the flux is moving/changing but then when the flux becomes steady, these other fields are just not there. Cant see them. Cant measure them. I tend to believe they were created to cover up the flux cutting method for what ever reasons..

Here is an example...  Speakers have all sorts of specs. Vb. FR. Qts. Qes. Qms. Xmax, Inductance. Impedance. Resistance.  And finally 'Sensitivity'  A spec not many put mind to.  It is a substitute for the efficiency of the speaker by listing say 90b@1W 1 meter from the speaker. The slick coverup is the fact that they will not, maybe because the are told not to, express the actual efficiency of the speaker as an in/out rating.  Sound energy is also measured in watts(energy over time) and some speakers, like with 88.5db are around 0.5%eff. 96db is 2.5%eff.  Seems awful inefficient dont ya think? But if we find a speaker that is say 105db@1w we are now at 20%eff.  ??? Well I have found 3 speakers that are rated at 112db@1W.  Guess what the eff is!!   100%eff!!!!   Hell no 'they' would not want anybody to know that. Especially not us here at the forums..   Now. Can we take that 100%eff speaker and improve on that??? I say absolutely.   If one could improve on that 112db to 114db, only a 2db difference, one would be at 158%eff!! :o :o   Get it? ;) So yeah.   8) "No actual eff ratings on speakers please!" 8)


Anyways, the spec is not something guys like us would ever consider in our game as the spec number really doesnt mean anything, until I thought about it and found actual eff calculations that make a great case for my argument.  If this is all true, then we should study these things as there is not one thing out there that is capable of 100%eff, that we know of, other than this.

So sure I can lean towards the idea that the completely invisible, undetectable fields that are associated with the magnetic field are just a way to hide something and lure us away from the truth. ;)   For me, the idea of flux cutting and being able to visualize that in my plans for projects works well for me. These other fields, if they exist at all, will always fall inline with the attributes of the flux anyway. And it distorts our true understanding of how the flux acts and interacts with the windings, cores...

Oh.  Looky here.  114db W/m  158%eff
https://marathonpro.com/btbutw.html

Hmm... 118db 398%eff
https://nbninchico.en.made-in-china.com/product/HNIJhsjrXmWu/China-300Hz-10kHz-Neo-Professional-Horn-Tweeter-with-118dB-Sensitivity-90d-1.html

Lol. Imagine that scandal. Speakers will be banned!! :o    lol, never happen.


Mags

 

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