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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: nix85 on January 07, 2020, 06:58:05 AM

Title: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 07, 2020, 06:58:05 AM
This has already been mentioned here but i don't think everything Joseph Henry wrote about it was shared. This is from Scientific writings of Joseph Henry, Section 11, PDF file pages 178. - 185. >> https://i.imgur.com/exKSHHB.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/exKSHHB.jpg)

The book >>
https://ia800302.us.archive.org/27/items/scientificwriti03henrgoog/scientificwriti03henrgoog.pdf (https://ia800302.us.archive.org/27/items/scientificwriti03henrgoog/scientificwriti03henrgoog.pdf)

Altho some of his experiments are not totally clear due to lack of diagrams or better language, it is made perfectly clear, two distinct kinds of induction are observed, one weaker which cannot be screened except with iron and another that can be screened by any metal.

He concludes suddent breaking of contact produces both kinds of induction and that this mysterious first type is akin to induction produced by motion.

Also closely related to this, not my thought but from a guy in that most famous Eric Dollard conference from late 90's...

Ask yourself how does flux running through the core of a transformer induce voltage in the secondary altho it is totally confined in the core and coil is outside of it.

Question also arises if that 'feeble' unscreenable type of induction becomes not so feeble with higher frequency and suddeness of discharge.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on January 07, 2020, 11:52:31 AM
Good question and hopefully someone can answer your question. I've also asked myself the same thing. I believe what I often overlook is the intimate relationship between the magnetic field and the electric field. In your post it says one can only be shielded by iron and the other shielded by other metals. So if you can answer the question whether and electric field can be shielded by materials other than iron then that may be your clue. Sorry that I'm not able to directly answer your question. Smart questions deserve smart answers. Hopefully someone can give one.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 07, 2020, 12:05:42 PM
In simple words, it is by etheric disturbance, magnetic field of the primary affecting the higher order of energy which is then picked up at the secondary and transformed back into magnetic field.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 07, 2020, 12:19:54 PM
About ether http://villesresearch.com/ether.html

Etheric Rainmaking with Trevor James Constable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjeUhQJp5WE

To better understand etheric energy you would have to read

COUNCIL OF 7 LIGHTS and WHEN STARS LOOK DOWN

by George Van Tassel.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 08, 2020, 06:48:59 PM
Whoever told you can can magnetize a ferrous material and keep 100%
of the flux “inside the material” was pulling your leg.
Even below saturation, the material produces an external field.
If flux occurs through the material, the external field also fluxes.


Take even our best example of semiconductor grade ceramic ferrite
(or their more expensive rare earth cousin)
Operate the device and place a compass outside of the material.


You observe deflection.
How is all of the flux inside?
If it was all inside, there would be no induction, only conduction.
And the inductive core wouldn’t stick to a magnet!!!


The electric field induces the magnetic, which in turn induces an electric.
100% of this conversion takes place outside of the ferrous material.
In fact, the core doesn’t even need to physically exist.
This won’t change the mode of operation. Only the variables.

Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 08, 2020, 06:58:42 PM
About ether http://villesresearch.com/ether.html (http://villesresearch.com/ether.html)

Etheric Rainmaking with Trevor James Constable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjeUhQJp5WE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjeUhQJp5WE)

To better understand etheric energy you would have to read

COUNCIL OF 7 LIGHTS and WHEN STARS LOOK DOWN

by George Van Tassel.


I saw this device being tested by the army.
I’m not sure what conclusions were made or what happened with it afterwards.
But the tests are simple.


And can be replicated with a reservoir of water, a conducive tube
and a source of visible heat waves.
It was my understanding that all of the apparatus connected to the device
we’re merely test equipment measuring things like temperatures and
conductivity of the water.


I didn’t make much sense of the science, but the simple answer is
“putting pipes in buckets of water in your yard may make rain”
How?why?wtf? There was not (at the time) a valid explanation.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Corton on January 09, 2020, 04:12:30 AM

Altho some of his experiments are not totally clear due to lack of diagrams or better language, it is made perfectly clear, two distinct kinds of induction are observed, one weaker which cannot be screened except with iron and another that can be screened by any metal.

He concludes suddent breaking of contact produces both kinds of induction and that this mysterious first type is akin to induction produced by motion.
It is my understanding that Henry, later in life, could not replicate his mysterious second induction. It was suspected his original data was incorrect.


Question also arises if that 'feeble' unscreenable type of induction becomes not so feeble with higher frequency and suddeness of discharge.

I think too many people default to high frequency as a pathway to free energy. I have yet to see any validity in that line of thinking, maybe, but all power generation we know of on this planet is performed with low frequency.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 09, 2020, 04:16:16 AM
It is my understanding that Henry, later in life, could not replicate his mysterious second induction. It was suspected his original data was incorrect


The answer is in the alloys we no longer use.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 09, 2020, 05:25:06 AM
Whoever told you can can magnetize a ferrous material and keep 100%
of the flux “inside the material” was pulling your leg...

Well, that is what we are told, every single diagram of a closed transformer depicts flux totally confined, just like field of a toroid really is confined, as shown below.

I have not tried the test with a compass, let's say i believe you it deflects.

In any case we can see INDUCTION does happen outside the ferrite core even at the distance like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOtEDkCSpA

Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 09, 2020, 05:52:43 AM
More on leakage flux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXkW9l3MzM
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 09, 2020, 05:59:26 AM
@sm0ky2 Altho leakage happens and no transformer is ideal, most of the flux is confined and the question remains, how then is voltage induced in the secondary since small part of the primary flux ''cuts'' it.

DO NOT PRETEND TO KNOW SINCE U DO NOT. You are trying to explain this in convetional terms and that is why you are deemed to fail in the start.

You MUST consider higher orders of energy when dealing with magnetism.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 09, 2020, 06:18:59 AM
We can see in the last video about leakage how guy explains flux prefers to loop on itself through the air, rather than go through the core surrounded by aluminum ring.

He clearly understands NOT, that this is very peculiar thing. Why would flux in the core care about a ring that is OUTSIDE of a core. This is the whole point.

Magnetic field is just an effect, ether is the true medium of transmission.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Corton on January 11, 2020, 04:07:28 AM
He clearly understands NOT, that this is very peculiar thing. Why would flux in the core care about a ring that is OUTSIDE of a core. This is the whole point.

Magnetic field is just an effect, ether is the true medium of transmission.

Not sure if I understand what you are writing, your sentences are fragmented (not trying to be rude). However the ring represents/acts link a single turn secondary producing some negligible Lenz. According to the experiments conducted in the video, magnetic flux is not solely contained in a closed core.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on January 11, 2020, 09:20:28 AM
Not sure if I understand what you are writing, your sentences are fragmented (not trying to be rude). However the ring represents/acts link a single turn secondary producing some negligible Lenz. According to the experiments conducted in the video, magnetic flux is not solely contained in a closed core.

What, are you fragmented  (not trying to be rude either)? My sentences are absolutely clear, you are talking about yourself.

''ring represents/acts LINK a single turn''. Eh

You are being confused and totally missed the point. Flux prefers the high reluctance air path rather than low reluctance path through the iron core 'cause of aluminum ring OUTSIDE the core.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 12, 2020, 09:15:19 PM

In any case we can see INDUCTION does happen outside the ferrite core even at the distance like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOtEDkCSpA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOtEDkCSpA)
Whoah. Hold you horses..   That is Tinman in that vid.   He shows induction to the top black coil from the toroid coil.  But later in the vid he says the core is a speaker magnet. :o :o :o And then claims he doesnt think the speaker magnets flux has anything to do with it. ::)   It has everything to do with it. Its like a solidstate orbo. The windings on the toroid when not powered up do not affect the magnets field. So running a signal through the toroid winding definitely alters the magnets field and the moving magnets field is causing the induction to the top secondary coil.
Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: synchro1 on July 13, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
The center of the Toroid can be viewed as both inside and outside the Toroid; Both magnetic poles show up next to each other inside the center of the Toroid, which is actually a space outside the Toroid! A paradox!
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 13, 2020, 04:18:25 PM
Whoah. Hold you horses..   That is Tinman in that vid.   He shows induction to the top black coil from the toroid coil.  But later in the vid he says the core is a speaker magnet. :o :o :o And then claims he doesnt think the speaker magnets flux has anything to do with it. ::)   It has everything to do with it. Its like a solidstate orbo. The windings on the toroid when not powered up do not affect the magnets field. So running a signal through the toroid winding definitely alters the magnets field and the moving magnets field is causing the induction to the top secondary coil.
Mags

What you're saying makes no sense, field of the ferrite and field of the coil are at 90° to each other, no interaction, if so minimal.

Like Jon wrote in the comments:

"It is the electric field you are measuring and not the magnetic field. One clue to this is the angular difference of your coils, one is looping with the core (secondary,measuring coil)  and one is going against the core (primary winding).
 I am of the opinion that the electric field is responsible for all induction and that the magnetic field is in this case is locked within the core unless you saturate the core."

actually, primary is not going "against the core" but he made a good point.

or it can be explained in terms of A field

http://freenrg.info/Physics/Scalar_Vector_Pot_And_Rick_Andersen/Rick_Andersen_Ortho.html
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 13, 2020, 04:23:33 PM
The center of the Toroid can be viewed as both inside and outside the Toroid; Both magnetic poles show up next to each other inside the center of the Toroid, which is actually a space outside the Toroid! A paradox!

there are no poles inside the toroid, poles can exist only if field is opened. im sure that is what u meant by saying "next to each other".
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 13, 2020, 05:10:29 PM
...
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 14, 2020, 12:14:08 AM
What you're saying makes no sense, field of the ferrite and field of the coil are at 90° to each other, no interaction, if so minimal.

Like Jon wrote in the comments:

"It is the electric field you are measuring and not the magnetic field. One clue to this is the angular difference of your coils, one is looping with the core (secondary,measuring coil)  and one is going against the core (primary winding).
 I am of the opinion that the electric field is responsible for all induction and that the magnetic field is in this case is locked within the core unless you saturate the core."

actually, primary is not going "against the core" but he made a good point.

or it can be explained in terms of A field

http://freenrg.info/Physics/Scalar_Vector_Pot_And_Rick_Andersen/Rick_Andersen_Ortho.html (http://freenrg.info/Physics/Scalar_Vector_Pot_And_Rick_Andersen/Rick_Andersen_Ortho.html)

At 3:55 in the vid, Brad states that the core in the toroid coil is a speaker magnet.  That means when the toroid coil when powered alters the magnets field, and that moving field from the magnet when the signal is on the toroid winding, is inducing the top secondary coil.  Look at the number of turns on the toroid and then the seemingly much fewer turns on the secondary. The step up voltage of the secondary is very high compared to the input to the toroid winding. I got the same effects with my solid state orbo. Using a drive coil to alter a magnets field so that the magnets field induces the secondary winding.
Just dont know why Brad said the core being a magnet should not affect the results, Im guessing in comparison to just a normal ferite core.  Try it,  Use a non magnetized core and then use a speaker magnet. You will see I am correct. ;) ;D
Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 14, 2020, 01:54:20 AM
At 3:55 in the vid, Brad states that the core in the toroid coil is a speaker magnet.  That means when the toroid coil when powered alters the magnets field..

Once again, field of the toroid is at 90° to field of the magnet, this means they do not see each other and there goes your theory down the drain.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 14, 2020, 04:38:19 AM
Once again, field of the toroid is at 90° to field of the magnet, this means they do not see each other and there goes your theory down the drain.

Well sure the toroid coil field is 90 deg of the 'magnet' core field..  If the speaker magnet is say N field up, no input to the toroid winding, is the field of the magnet crossing the top secondary coil??  Is it in proximity to the secondary coil??  Now power up the toroid winding with AC signal. That magnet field will appear and disappear on the secondary and inducing currents in the secondary.


Here is my solid state orbo where a toroid coil alters a magnets field to induce a secondary winding. It is virtually the same thing and I understand it very well as to how it works. Without the magnets, there is no mutual induction of the toroid primary winding to the standard winding. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ljx1py-BUs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ljx1py-BUs)


Here is another vid I did using the toroid winding to make the core invisible to the rotor magnet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ)


And here is a version that uses a toroid coil on a toroid core showing attraction and repulsion of the rotor magnets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KpppPqwRk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KpppPqwRk)


So now..  Show me your videos on this subject and lets see what you really know about all this other than just taking Brads word for it as to the idea that the speaker magnet does not play into the equation in the vid you present. He was very wrong to make the claim that the speaker magnet is only acting like a toroid ferite core. It has everything to do with the outcome he had shown in that vid. ;) If it were just a ferite core he would not get the same results. No way no how. :P



Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 14, 2020, 05:37:54 AM
Well sure the toroid coil field is 90 deg of the 'magnet' core field..  If the speaker magnet is say N field up, no input to the toroid winding, is the field of the magnet crossing the top secondary coil??  Is it in proximity to the secondary coil??  Now power up the toroid winding with AC signal. That magnet field will appear and disappear on the secondary and inducing currents in the secondary...

first of all i suggest u to lose the silly emojis

for the third time, two magnetic fields at 90° do not see each other. so ur "explanation" "toroid makes the magnet invisible" just dont cut it.

we are talking interaction of orthogonal magnetic fields which should not happen, just like ordinary transformer should not work since flux is inside the core and does not cut a single wire of the secondary..

it all comes down to interactions of the A-FIELDs, of the etheric smoke rings i linked above.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 14, 2020, 06:56:30 AM
first of all i suggest u to lose the silly emojis

for the third time, two magnetic fields at 90° do not see each other. so ur "explanation" "toroid makes the magnet invisible" just dont cut it.

we are talking interaction of orthogonal magnetic fields which should not happen, just like ordinary transformer should not work since flux is inside the core and does not cut a single wire of the secondary..

it all comes down to interactions of the A-FIELDs, of the etheric smoke rings i linked above.

Ill use emojis as I see fit. ;D   

I dont follow etheric smoke rings. I follow flux cutting for induction. 

To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance. :o


In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting. When we look at just the field of a single straight wire and apply current, the field emanates from the wire itself. If we gradually bring a core near the powered wire, are you saying all of the wires field will just appear in the core and there will no longer be any field around the wire? ??? ::)

Below is a pdf of what I follow. In a toroid, all the induction action happens in the hole of the core. The flux from the primary crosses the hole of the core and induces the sec. The same for an Ecore from the center to the outer parts of the core. Its all pretty simple and your making it all too complex. What advantage do you have with your way compared to my way?  What can you do using your understanding vs my understanding that makes things any easier or help you do things that I cannot do?  Pretty much nothing really.

Brads vid is a sham.  Honestly if he did know that the magnet does as I explained it does, then he is also a liar.  If he didnt know at the time( some years ago) then he was clearly mistaken with his test and just didnt know any better at the time. Either way, what he has shown has nothing to do with fuzzy clouds that you embellish and has everything to do with the toroid winding altering the core speaker magnets field of which is inducing the voltage in the top secondary by way of flux cutting.

Show me the same experiment Brad had shown with just a normal ferite core nonmagnetized and your results on the secondary will never do what brad has shown. Cannot happen.  If you disagree, then show me. You will have to prove that the core is not a magnet.

Mags
 
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: citfta on July 14, 2020, 12:31:32 PM
Hi Mags,


You are wasting your time here.  Nix85 only believes what he sees on YouTube.  He refuses to consider that what is shown on YouTube might be wrong.


Carroll
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 14, 2020, 03:07:29 PM
Ill use emojis as I see fit. ;D   

I dont follow etheric smoke rings. I follow flux cutting for induction. 

To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance. :o


In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting. When we look at just the field of a single straight wire and apply current, the field emanates from the wire itself. If we gradually bring a core near the powered wire, are you saying all of the wires field will just appear in the core and there will no longer be any field around the wire? ??? ::)

Below is a pdf of what I follow. In a toroid, all the induction action happens in the hole of the core. The flux from the primary crosses the hole of the core and induces the sec. The same for an Ecore from the center to the outer parts of the core. Its all pretty simple and your making it all too complex. What advantage do you have with your way compared to my way?  What can you do using your understanding vs my understanding that makes things any easier or help you do things that I cannot do?  Pretty much nothing really.

Brads vid is a sham.  Honestly if he did know that the magnet does as I explained it does, then he is also a liar.  If he didnt know at the time( some years ago) then he was clearly mistaken with his test and just didnt know any better at the time. Either way, what he has shown has nothing to do with fuzzy clouds that you embellish and has everything to do with the toroid winding altering the core speaker magnets field of which is inducing the voltage in the top secondary by way of flux cutting.

Show me the same experiment Brad had shown with just a normal ferite core nonmagnetized and your results on the secondary will never do what brad has shown. Cannot happen.  If you disagree, then show me. You will have to prove that the core is not a magnet.

Mags

first of all, that video is irrelevant, its just one of many examples, no need to to mention or try to defame that guy brad.

"To follow what you just quoted, then I would have to believe that a simple air core inductor windings fields do not cut the other windings in order to accomplish self inductance"

that totally does not follow from anything i said. with air core flux is not contained in the core, and it freely cuts the wires.

"In a transformer, toroid, Ecore, etc., the fields are not totally contained in the core and there is flux cutting"

that is almost totally untrue, its not even a question that magnetic field of the toroid is almost perfectly contained within itself, basic experiment with iron powder (which i already posted on first page) shows clearly field outside the toroid is zero for all pratical purposes, the very reason they are used for shielding in radio amps, eliminating the need for grounded metal cages.

same goes for transformer core unless there is an airgap or it has sharp corners (as most do) in which case SOME leakage does occur, but that happens not under the secondary and is by orders of magnitude too small to account even for a fraction of the induced voltage.

for all practical purposes it IS contained in the core, yet voltage is induced in the wires which never see that MAGNETIC flux....

and we came back to the more subtle energy, which u try to dodge but can never dodge it since it is mother and father of the so called magnetic field, the A-FIELD, the etheric substrata.

as for that troll, i dont believe or go by any videos, i go by centuries of hard research and reason.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2020, 12:42:08 AM
Or maybe its like this below.

From the pdf of my last post


Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2020, 12:47:31 AM
The text of the pdf explains the flux cutting version that answers many questions on this very subject.
I highly recommend the read. Goes into details of why and why not.  Took me a few reads to get a full grip. Once it sinks in.....

Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 01:44:42 AM
sure, few lines might leak, but, like i said, this could never account for the induced voltage, by orders of magnitude.

induction happens through more subtle force than what is called magnetism
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2020, 02:59:09 AM
sure, few lines might leak, but, like i said, this could never account for the induced voltage, by orders of magnitude.

induction happens through more subtle force than what is called magnetism
nooo!  ;D   not a few lines. Any flux that the core accepts crosses that hole in the core. The windings of say a primary on the left and a secondary on the right for visual purposes, all of the field of the primary that engages the core in full core loop, had to cross that hole. and in that hole are the parts of the winding that get the densest flux as the very outside parts of the toroid winding are not playing as big a part in the self induction and or mutual induction. There may be a lot of wasted wire in our windings causing more series resistance than we might know about. Probably the best core would be a completely enclosed core. Only openings for wire leads. Anyway..
Ive been through this discussion  but it was the E field that they claimed was the actual current flow inducing factor, not flux cutting. 

Thing for me about, well, all that, is it just isnt tangible for me. The only thing that is tangible is the magnetic field. The E field only appears when the flux is moving/changing but then when the flux becomes steady, these other fields are just not there. Cant see them. Cant measure them. I tend to believe they were created to cover up the flux cutting method for what ever reasons..

Here is an example...  Speakers have all sorts of specs. Vb. FR. Qts. Qes. Qms. Xmax, Inductance. Impedance. Resistance.  And finally 'Sensitivity'  A spec not many put mind to.  It is a substitute for the efficiency of the speaker by listing say 90b@1W 1 meter from the speaker. The slick coverup is the fact that they will not, maybe because the are told not to, express the actual efficiency of the speaker as an in/out rating.  Sound energy is also measured in watts(energy over time) and some speakers, like with 88.5db are around 0.5%eff. 96db is 2.5%eff.  Seems awful inefficient dont ya think? But if we find a speaker that is say 105db@1w we are now at 20%eff.  ??? Well I have found 3 speakers that are rated at 112db@1W.  Guess what the eff is!!   100%eff!!!!   Hell no 'they' would not want anybody to know that. Especially not us here at the forums..   Now. Can we take that 100%eff speaker and improve on that??? I say absolutely.   If one could improve on that 112db to 114db, only a 2db difference, one would be at 158%eff!! :o :o   Get it? ;) So yeah.   8) "No actual eff ratings on speakers please!" 8)


Anyways, the spec is not something guys like us would ever consider in our game as the spec number really doesnt mean anything, until I thought about it and found actual eff calculations that make a great case for my argument.  If this is all true, then we should study these things as there is not one thing out there that is capable of 100%eff, that we know of, other than this.

So sure I can lean towards the idea that the completely invisible, undetectable fields that are associated with the magnetic field are just a way to hide something and lure us away from the truth. ;)   For me, the idea of flux cutting and being able to visualize that in my plans for projects works well for me. These other fields, if they exist at all, will always fall inline with the attributes of the flux anyway. And it distorts our true understanding of how the flux acts and interacts with the windings, cores...

Oh.  Looky here.  114db W/m  158%eff
https://marathonpro.com/btbutw.html

Hmm... 118db 398%eff
https://nbninchico.en.made-in-china.com/product/HNIJhsjrXmWu/China-300Hz-10kHz-Neo-Professional-Horn-Tweeter-with-118dB-Sensitivity-90d-1.html

Lol. Imagine that scandal. Speakers will be banned!! :o    lol, never happen.


Mags
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 03:22:10 AM
nooo!  ;D   not a few lines. Any flux that the core accepts crosses that hole in the core....

thats not true, most of the flux is contained in the core. leakage is minimal to null. it does not account for the secondary voltage, that is beyond any doubt.

"measurable magnetic field" is not what induces voltage in the secondary, it is the A-FIELD or however u wanna call it.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: partzman on July 15, 2020, 03:35:53 PM
The work of Edwards and Saha demonstrates their theory of how transformers work via the Poynting vector or S flow.  See attached below.

Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 06:11:48 PM
as authors themselves admit "The fundamentals of power flow in transformers have been examined, at least at a conceptual level"

they are theorizing about something they dont know, totally disregarding subtler energetic forms of which magnetism is a byproduct, something that is the key to whole operation.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: partzman on July 15, 2020, 07:04:42 PM
as authors themselves admit "The fundamentals of power flow in transformers have been examined, at least at a conceptual level"

they are theorizing about something they dont know, totally disregarding subtler energetic forms of which magnetism is a byproduct, something that is the key to whole operation.

In the context of paragraph 5 in the first paper from which you quoted, they have done the tests and have confirmed their theory.  For more proof of this, check section 4 of the second paper which is titled "Experimental Results with Cores".

These two individuals have many papers online which are most informative for example-

"Establishment of Current in Inductors"

"Conduction and Displacement Currents in Capacitors"

"Diffusion of Currents into Conductors"

"Establishment of Magnetic Fields in Coils"

"Physical Principles of Magnetism"

Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 07:15:50 PM
In the context of paragraph 5 in the first paper from which you quoted, they have done the tests and have confirmed their theory.  For more proof of this, check section 4 of the second paper which is titled "Experimental Results with Cores".

These two individuals have many papers online which are most informative for example-

"Establishment of Current in Inductors"

"Conduction and Displacement Currents in Capacitors"

"Diffusion of Currents into Conductors"

"Establishment of Magnetic Fields in Coils"

"Physical Principles of Magnetism"

Regards,
Pm

even if their measurements are in alignment with their poynting vector "explanation", its more like a lucky coincidence than proof.

u can NOT talk about magnetic induction without putting main focus on the subtler energy of which magnetic field is a byproduct.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: bistander on July 15, 2020, 07:45:17 PM
Hi, interesting topic. I've always been a fan of Ampere's Law. Saying only current passing through the doughnut hole counts.
regards,
bi

Photo: Wikipedia
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 07:50:23 PM
lets remember main topic are two kinds of induction discovered by henry.

and this is highly related to what we discuss now

one weaker which cannot be screened except with iron (i wonder if he tried nickel and cobalt)

and another that can be screened by any metal


i think what he measured as a weaker non-screenable induction is faster part of the magnetic field, something close to but not gravity. just like edgard hollingshead extracted neutral energy from electricity and used it to degravitate matter, to increase it's atomic speed he called it, cause this same neutral energy is in everything but at different speeds/frequencies, that in matter being orders of magnitude slower than in electricity.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: bistander on July 15, 2020, 08:05:01 PM
Perhaps this article is of interest.
bi

https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9292/7/8/142/htm

High Frequency Transformer’s Parasitic Capacitance Minimization for Photovoltaic (PV) High-Frequency Link-Based Medium Voltage (MV) Inverter
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 09:14:55 PM
something about magnetic poles

geographic north - magnetic south - MALE - POSITIVE, expansive (where ufos leave - repulsive pole)

geographic south - magnetic north - FEMALE - NEGATIVE, contractive (where ufos come in - atractive pole)
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 09:35:08 PM
also, so called poynting vector is closely associated with a-field i mentioned and gravity.

this was discovered by late Gennady F. Ignatyev

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn7qO7F8sOc

he claims weight reduction of 60N aka 6kg with 40kW.

his system is VERY inefficient, hutchison levitated a 35kg cannoball with 75 watts.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 10:52:39 PM
more along these lines

https://youtu.be/5AovJARwbqI?t=441
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrruwLqy8ho
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: partzman on July 15, 2020, 11:23:57 PM
Nix,

I don't wish to derail your thread but the following may be instructive in regards to the fields in a closed toroid core.

The bench device tested is shown in the first pix.  It is a 2" OD ferrite toroid core with an RS pot core inserted in the center of the hole.  The schematic is shown in the second pix with Lh representing the coil on the RS core.  A resonating cap Cres is connected across the output of Lh.  The primary of the toroid is driven by an ac source and the secondary is loaded with a resistive load.

Pix three shows the scope measurements of the assembly.  CH2(blu) shows the input ac voltage at ~11kHz fed to the primary, CH3(pnk) shows the output voltage across Cres, CH1(yel) is the output voltage across the load RL, and CH4(grn) is the current in the primary.  Note the peak voltage of 372v at the positive peak and Cres is .047uf so the saturating resonant energy is ~ +-3.25mJ each cycle.

What is important here is the fact that Lh is driven into extreme saturation as is indicated by the flat top of the voltage across Cres.  The question is, 'what is creating the saturation of the un-gapped RS core and the resulting energy?'  Keep in mind that Lh is not electrically connected to the toroid's circuitry and the A field is not the source.

Regards,
Pm 
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 15, 2020, 11:52:53 PM
i just dont understand what u mean "A field is not the source", a-field is ALWAYS the source, what we perceive as magnetic field is just it's axis (according to rick anderson's etheric smoke ring model which i believe to be accurate).
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: partzman on July 16, 2020, 02:41:44 AM
In this example, it is the H field or magnetizing force that drives Lh into saturation.  Notice the axis of orientation of RS core for Lh in the pix in relation to the open core areas between the primary and secondary windings.  It is in these open areas that the mmf or ampturns exits one side and re-enters the opposite side when the secondary is loaded or shorted or in opposite polarity to the primary and in this case it alternates at the input frequency.

If the RS core is rotated out of alignment with the open core areas, the saturation of Lh will diminish and will eventually cease at 90 degrees of rotation.

This presence of the H field is seen in every transformer configuration and is caused by the normal Lenz effect of the secondary. 

If anyone attempts to replicate this effect, the input frequency must be initially lowered to a point that raises the H field current to a high enough level to saturate the RS core.  Once the core "snaps" into saturation, the frequency can then be raised to a much higher level as in this example.

In reference to whether this could be attributed to the A field, keep in mind some hold to the belief that the A field is a mathematical construct only.

Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 16, 2020, 04:38:34 AM
"It is in these open areas that the mmf or ampturns exits one side and re-enters the opposite side when the secondary is loaded or shorted or in opposite polarity to the primary and in this case it alternates at the input frequency."

so flux in the middle appears due to secondary current when secondary is loaded, yet secondary current is result of flux in the middle cutting the secondary. do u see the catch 22, that for flux in the middle to appear there already has to be secondary current and how is there a secondary current if middle h field has not yet formed.

there is no avoiding the a-field, and this is only one of examples that prove it's existence.

 
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 16, 2020, 08:25:42 AM
few words from floyd sweet about motional e field, something very close to if not the same as a field.

i think he is wrong about the detail that flux is not actually being cut
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 16, 2020, 08:49:21 AM
some more on motional e fields (very interesting)
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 19, 2020, 01:52:03 AM
just to add, funny that mass of a proton is 1,836 times the mass of an electron

numerical value of 9, key to magnetism (source: richard t. miller tapes)

just like 12 is key to gravity (source: only planet of choice phyllis v. schlemmer)

according to sweet above we might conclude motional electric field (gravity?) is produced mainly by the electron

we find confirmation for this also in ummo papers, i quote

Quote
You know that one of the attributes of the electron is Mass. When the mass of the electron describes a harmonic motion, under certain conditions it creates gravitational waves with an equivalent loss of energy. Under these conditions the electron disappears to be transformed into what you would call ANOTHER SUBATOMIC PARTICLE.

Electron degenerates as it emits quantified energy in gravitational form.

These gravitational waves have an energy much weaker than the radio waves you know (about 10 power -39).

there are other confirmations of this. ning li rotated electrons trapped in superconductor lattice in which they form cooper pairs. spun at high speed she claimed to have developed a forcefield of 8kg, attractive or repulsive depending on polarity (positive or negative ions i suppose).

it seems gravitational field can be produced by two same opposing (phase conjugate) em signals and that distance between the antennas determines the quality of the artificial ether produced, and also that field is amplified by addition of strong electrostatic field and even more so by rotation of heavy crystaline matter.

Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 19, 2020, 02:04:49 AM
bismuth
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 20, 2020, 12:36:45 AM
hutchison ball stablized

https://youtu.be/pPYCKySAePQ?t=126
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on July 20, 2020, 10:30:53 PM
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Bell-System-Technical-Journal/30s/Bell-1932c.o.pdf
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on July 31, 2020, 08:23:10 AM
...
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on July 31, 2020, 11:56:17 AM
My conclusion is that the other form of induction is actually “self induction” which he is credited for discovering. The shielding effect I believe is the difference between high and low frequency or static magnetic field. Steel can somewhat shield magnetism but not copper or aluminum. But a fast changing magnetic field will induce focault (eddy) currents in these metals and therefore act as a shield. It’s why you sometimes see transformers wrapped in a thin sheet of copper. Anyway that’s by best guess. As you said before they expressed there thoughts differently in those days so it’s difficult to follow.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 01, 2020, 04:15:15 AM
ofc, that is not true
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 01, 2020, 06:55:12 AM
Am I supposed to just take your word on it. Maybe you have better explanation. I’m always willing to learn something new. I’m all ears!
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 01, 2020, 11:52:02 AM
i already said possible explanation is in terms of a-field or motional electric field, which appear to be similar to gravity, but not necessarily the same.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 02, 2020, 11:34:58 PM
I’ve done some more research and believe my conclusion is correct. It was only the difference in which the experiments were carried out. Henry had stumbled upon eddy currents and the effects associated with high frequency. I’ve included a couple videos that clearly show these effects. Notice how copper has no effect at low frequency but does at high frequency.
https://youtu.be/EZLu8v3tTfY
https://youtu.be/_Zq6qiuuINE
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 03, 2020, 10:37:43 PM
i seen those videos. still, there is more to it than eddy currents, read the long screenshot on the first page of his experiemnts and you'll see why it is so

besides, we're not talking just henry, but also MEF and A-FIELD.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 03, 2020, 11:42:13 PM
This is from page 124 of the link you provided in your first post. Could you point me to a specific paragraph on the screenshot.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 04, 2020, 09:26:09 AM
paragraph 51

he arranged a delicate setup in which induced currents perfectly neutralized each other measured by two galvanometers and a needle to detect the induced magnetic field if present.

placing zinc plate on one coil galvanometer remained at 0 showing two induced currents still perfectly canceled each other, and yet, needle became powerfully magnetic.

current was 0 in two opposing coils, needle should not have become magnetized

and with iron plate he found currents no longer cancel out and needle also became magnetized

https://i.imgur.com/exKSHHB.jpg


which again reminds me of edgar hollingshead who discovered that discruptive, high voltage discharges separate neutral energy from electrcity, same thing as radiant shockwaves of tesla.

holingshead beautifully defined this, saying that this neutral energy is present in all forces and matter with only difference being it's speed, that in electricity being orders of magnitude faster than in matter

he found that treating metals with this neutral energy changes what he called "atomic speed" which i like to think of as frequency of quarks. he spoke of 3 phase nature of force, positive, negative and neutral and that their ratio is 3, 6 and 9.

changing just positive or negative phase makes matter get hot or cold, changing all 3 at once changes it's gravitational potential.

he made aluminum 20% lighter, disintegrated matter to nothing etc.

rota also spoke that treating metals with neutral energy makes them aquire negative weight, his wingless plane of ~90kg flew by radio control.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 05, 2020, 12:38:39 AM
I don’t think the current was zero in two opposing coils. It’s only that the two opposing currents canceled each other, therefore no deflection of galvanometer. The galvanometer has two coils wrapped on same frame. One secondary winding connected to one coil of galvanometer. The other secondary was connected to other coil on galvanometer. Current was still flowing in both secondary’s therefore it should still magnetize a needle. This is the way I’m understanding the setup. My problem is why the interposed zinc plate showed no screening effect.If you continue reading he gives the reason behind some of the discrepancies in previous experiments. The answers are there we just have to look harder.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 05, 2020, 08:17:17 AM
"Current was still flowing in both secondary’s therefore it should still magnetize a needle"

no

even if there was full current in both coils (which is your assumption) and these currents only canceled in the galvanometer, still, needle was placed in a way to get magnetized only if two currents did not cancel out.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 05, 2020, 04:18:05 PM
This is a description of the experiment in Faradays own words. Tell me if you understand it as I do. That there is current induced in secondary’s but they oppose each other in galvanometer.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 05, 2020, 05:33:55 PM
The magnetizing spiral consist of two wires wrapped around straw. The induced current flows in opposition not only in galvanometer, but also in magnetizing spiral. Therefore current is induced but doesn’t magnetize needle. Only when there is imbalance in current does needle magnetize.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 05, 2020, 06:12:55 PM
I believe I got that a** backwards. As you say the needle gets magnetized. So it would have to be in opposition in galvanometer, but not in magnetizing spiral. But it’s not clear to me whether the magnetizing spiral is opposing or not. I see no reason to believe that there not in opposition.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 05, 2020, 11:34:35 PM
i know the way he describes it is extremely confusing and thus practically worthless, but that is how i got it, that needle gets magnetized only if currents don't cancel out
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: onepower on August 06, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
There would seem to be many kinds of Induction.

We are generally concerned with Electro-Magnetic induction however this is born from Magnetic field Induction and Electric field Induction which are distinct phenomena in themselves. Wilhelm Weber also discovered the longitudinal force which can induce other objects but he never determined exactly how. There is also self-induction and mutual induction which basically fall under the umbrella of Electromagnetism.

On the far end of the spectrum we also see strange things whereby external field effects have caused/induced the magnetization of metals such as aluminum for a period of hours. In another case a field of force was induced in the region under a high speed moving plastic film coming off a large roll in a manufacturing plant. The invisible field of force supposedly stopped people in there tracks and had the consistency of jello... is this induction?.

I think all relate to Electro-Magnetism however there would seem to be countless possibilities how induced field forces can manifest themselves.

Regards
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 07, 2020, 12:08:52 AM
In another case a field of force was induced in the region under a high speed moving plastic film coming off a large roll in a manufacturing plant. The invisible field of force supposedly stopped people in there tracks and had the consistency of jello... is this induction?.

only kind of induction i really care about

we hear about these jello like invisible forcefield all over, from us planes exploding into invisible barriers during operation highjump to countless ufo cases, to wiliam hamilton's report on antihill facility, california, no doors but two cylinders in the walls that project such field etc.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 07, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
bill hamilton's research on Northrup RCS Facility at Tejon, CA

https://youtu.be/A_74SNIgcfQ?t=1559
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: kajunbee on August 10, 2020, 03:37:54 PM
https://commons.princeton.edu/josephhenry/galvanometer/

They seem to match his description in his scientific writings. He states that one had 500 turns and the other one was 40 turns.
Title: Re: Two kinds of induction - Henry
Post by: nix85 on August 11, 2020, 07:45:55 PM
in any case needle was meant to get magnetized only if there was difference in current