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Author Topic: TD replications  (Read 55041 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 04:47:52 PM »
Thanks for the clarification floor

I'll re-measure the approximate 75 degree of rotation available up to the 90 center to see how it effects the gain.

Luc


Well, I did the test and the results are surprisingly the same 31% gain.
In the previous test 3 the output rotation arm (Ro) traveled 140 degrees and the results were also 31% gain.
See both test data below. First is test 4 and the second is test 3
The disengage in test 4 is unmeasurable (less the 5 grams)


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 04:47:52 PM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 04:58:26 PM »
@gotoluc

Referring only to your videos 3 with the rectangular neos, I have always liked mechanical puzzles of weight and motion but this device I see is giving me a potential quandary.

You measured your reference data by putting your scale on the tip of each arm and lifting to record the measured "pull" weight at each increment.

But in your experiment the arm is being lifted by and from the center shaft via the length of one neo magnet so it has to fight against the full leverage of the arm, so the actual mechanical process of the experiment is not pulling the arm from the tip as you have tabulated.

Seems to me the base data should be taken at a point on the arm that starts at the shaft and goes not more then half the length of the neo magnet from the shaft since it is the shaft centered neo magnet's responding length that is turning the shaft that is lifting the arm.

What would your opinions be. So I am basically asking "Should the base data be taken at point 1 or 2 on the below drawing?", since for me the lift force required should be greater at point 1 then point 2. Or, am I blind to an obvious simplicity. I do not know for sure and maybe even if the data was taken at point 1, the final ratios would be the same and the final percentage outcome would also be the same.

By the way @gotoluc, your worksmanship is so fine and thanks for your always inquisitive and clear videos and works.

wattsup


Hi wattsup


the reason for the distance on the arms is I originally built it to measure foot pound of torque.
To my knowledge this is the way to measure foot pound or in my newer tests foot grams.


Hope this helps?


Luc

Offline Sacregraal

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 05:05:45 PM »
Hello Gotoluc ,

I follow your work for many years now , and it's always a great pleasure to see your vidéos ...

Looking at your 3th vidéo for the TD réplication , I think there is a measure missing .
You've got 3 Step
 1 - you engage the linéare arm ( it's the first data for the input work )
2 - you mesure the output torque ( it 's the only output work )
3 - you disengage the linéare arm ( it' the seconde data for the input work )

but
4 - you need to reset the position of the ouput arm for complete the cycle , i will be curious of the work it need ... This is for me a third data for the input work )

Cheers
SG

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 05:05:45 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2016, 02:38:42 AM »
QUOTE from DrJones
"So the work = mechanical energy = Torque x Theta, not just Torque alone.
I'm concerned that Theta has been left out in the analysis so far in this thread -
 and hope that Theta will be included in the future. "END QUOTE

 Two questions

1. The conversion of torque to work is needed,
          in order
to state the actions in terms of Joules of work. Correct ? 

2. But  that conversion to joules, will not change the RATIOS
 of the measurements to each other, will it ?

                        thanks for being on board
                                   floor

Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2016, 03:12:14 AM »
@Gotoluc

DrJones makes a good point of clarification.

The reasons for my usage of round levers (pulleys) and conversions
of degrees of rotation into the linear fall of the weights are probably
pretty clear at this point.

I stopped short of the conversion of grams into newton, averaging, and
calculations of joules. 

But even, simply the degrees times weight of each set compared to each other
will still give the same ratios ? as  their conversions to joules will to each other ???

I have asked DrJones this question ?

PS
      Thanks for the additional data
                       
                           floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2016, 03:12:14 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2016, 07:39:24 PM »
@Wattsup

QUOTE from Wattsup
"But in your experiment the arm is being lifted by and from the center shaft via
the length of one neo magnet so it has to fight against the full leverage of the
arm, so the actual mechanical process of the experiment is not pulling the arm
 from the tip as you have tabulated. "  END QUOTE

I'm guessing you have already realized that the lifting on the (rotating magnet)
indicator / lift arm is against the magnetic force between the RO magnet and the SL
magnet.

It takes a little while to grok the motions and interactions in the "TD" unit, and then
yet more time, for this to settle in.  No worries though, after 2 years of the TD, I'm
still some times befuddled.

                   regards
                      floor
                 

Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 03:31:10 PM »
@Luc

some observations

Your build successfully demonstrates that the SL becomes nearly
 free from the linear motivating forces between it and RO when
RO is at 90 from parallel to SL.

SL needs to be very far from RO,  before RO will be nearly free
from rotation motivating forces, between it and SL.

also see the attached files.

your device needs further modifications and dialing in.

                     best wishes
                             floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 03:31:10 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 07:12:02 PM »
Your build successfully demonstrates that the SL becomes nearly
 free from the linear motivating forces between it and RO when
RO is at 90 from parallel to SL.

Yes, I agree!

SL needs to be very far from RO,  before RO will be nearly free
from rotation motivating forces, between it and SL.


True, the SL (sliding magnet) needs to be far away from RO (rotating magnet) to have zero influence.
The reason I cannot obtain measurements on my scale when disengaging the SL torque arm is because the arm is 12 inches long and was originally designed to measure foot pounds.
To get a scale reading on test 4 (disengage arm) I would have to reduce the SL arm length by half if not more to get the scale to register something.
I didn't feel it was necessary to modify the device at this point since I'm not seeing any advantages using the rectangular magnets over the ring magnets I originally tested and designed the device to measure.
I'm going to move on to testing other magnet configurations that produce more torque so it's best to keep thing as they are.
Hope that makes sense?

also see the attached files.
your device needs further modifications and dialing in.

As for your great diagrams, thanks for taking the time to do them ... I agree to all points and have been aware of each scenario.
On the first one, I was aware of the potential problem, so right from the start I took great care in keeping the scale angle at 90 degrees of the SL and RO arms throughout their torque travel. So there should be no errors in the scale data provided to date.

The other issue which I also knew of, is true, the crankshaft will influence the linear scale readings of the SL input torque arm. However, since measurements are done in each directions (engage & disengage) there cannot be an advantage or gain from using a crankshaft mechanism since if it did we would of solved the energy problems some time back.
With this in mind I trust the method and measurement used to be a true reflection of input force. However, I do agree by using a crankshaft on the input arm I'm not getting a linear input torque measurement, so the charts I made are affected by this fact.

Hope this answers your concerns?
Please feel free or anyone else explain if I fail to understand something or have error in my logic.

Kind regards

Luc
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 02:34:13 AM by gotoluc »

Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2016, 01:32:31 AM »
@gotoluc

still on the same page.

I have to ask these questions, It's just part of the process (scientific).
I sure you get it. Your work is much appreciated.

                 regards
                          floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2016, 01:32:31 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2016, 03:17:26 AM »
@gotoluc

still on the same page.

I have to ask these questions, It's just part of the process (scientific).
I sure you get it. Your work is much appreciated.

                 regards
                          floor


Great and thanks for asking these important questions which I could of explained in my video but I try to keep them as short as possible so I stick to important details.
I do understand these questions need to be asked to ensure we're on the right track and I appreciate answering them.

I hope more experimenters like Vidar, TK and so on are going to find things we haven't considered yet.
Could it be there's nothing else?
Come on guys, you know this shouldn't be so

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2016, 07:45:06 AM »
Hi webby1


as you know I have always supplied input reset data which is deducted from the output gain.
Even with this input reset subtracted for the output gain I'm still left with a 30% torque gain.

I have come up with a rotating design which will have 2 to 4 alternating torque sequences which has no need to reset the output.
Each of these alternating output torque sequences will transfer the 30% gains in rotating flywheels.
The question now is, will this 30% output torque gain alternately transferred in each flywheel which will represents at most 40% of one revolution (per flywheel) be enough to keep each flywheel turning the 60% of the remaining revolution and may include a small counter force to go through as well?

I think it may but we never know till we try.
Most of the parts for the build will be in next week.

Stay tuned and please feel free to point out any other problem you find in the meanwhile.

Regards

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2016, 07:45:06 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2016, 03:57:57 PM »
Are the 28 samples of the Torque arm 14 in one direction of rotation and 14 in the other?  with the 60g being the start\end point?

The 28 sample test 3 output torque chart has 140 degrees of travel (not 14 inches) on the output torque arm with an average of 165 foot/grams of torque throughout that 140 degrees of travel.

What I see from the  data you have provided is only 3 columns,, engage, cost,,, disengage, cost,, torque arm out, output,, but am missing the 4th which is torque arm reset, cost.

I would have to make serious modifications to my test device to calculate the losses of the output torque arm to rotate the balance of the 220 degrees needed to bring the arm back to the reset point. So I decided to use that time to just build a device which can continue to rotate in case it does work.
My new design uses many parts I already have on hand so the cost of extra parts is just $25, so not a big loss if it doesn't work. Plus, once I have the device put together (even if it doesn't work) I'll be able to measure how much the balance of the rotation (reset) costs.

Regards

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2016, 04:29:37 PM »
Let me put it this way.

The full cycle is,

engage,     CCW, cost 0.2778951388 J
torque arm, CCW, gain 0.7795415278 J
disengage,  CW,  cost 0.2622390746 J
torque arm, CW   cost ??? ??

After disengage the torque arm needs to be put back into the position for engage to happen for the start of the next cycle.


Yes, I got it but I don't think this is a practical way of resetting it. I want the output torque to continue in the same direction and return to the beginning. Makes more sense to me to keep things in motion then to send it back in the opposite direction.

We'll see how it works out.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2016, 06:18:28 PM »
Conservation of momentum is important and should be considered.

However,, with the testbed you had you could of simply pulled the Torque arm backwards (CW) and measured the force over the same distance while the other arm was in the disengaged position.  This would then of provided the energy needed for the complete cycle regardless of how it is applied.

28 samples,, 14 samples :)


Yes I agree, I could make new torque arms which would need to be 3 inches or less to rotate 360 degrees. However, doing that causes other problems like the scale is going to have issues measuring the portion when the arm is close to hitting the aluminum slab and possibly other issues I can't immediately visualize.


Like I said, I rather not make drastic changes on this device for now. You'll have to wait a week or so to see what I can come up with on the next full rotation test device.


Luc

Offline Sacregraal

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2016, 08:32:08 PM »
Hello everybody ,

 This device remind me something you probably knows ...
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm

It was in 1998 ...

Keep the good work Gotoluc !

SG





 

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