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Mechanical free energy devices => Regen-X generator by Thane Heins => Topic started by: gotoluc on December 17, 2014, 01:22:08 AM
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Hi everyone,
I'm starting this topic to further study the effects of a generator coil which causes no load to its prime mover once connected to a 1 Ohm resistive load.
It seems we have many views about what could be happening in such a coil and maybe together we can find an explanation we can all agree upon.
I made a video of a simple test device that demonstrates a coil I consider having this quality.
A sense coil has been carefully positioned in order for both coil sinewaves to be in phase which can also serves as a rotor magnet timing reference.
During the video I didn't verbally explain because of the prime mover noise. However, it should be clear to most who have experience on the matter that once the coil is placed under the 1 Ohm load there is next to no change in Frequency (motor RPM). What's also clear is there's a delay in phase once I adjust the scope probe voltage division.
So the question is, what causes current to delay in a resistive load and what is going on in the coil to cause such an effect?
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c)
Regards
Luc
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@Luc,
Very controversial topic. Thanks for re-opening the investigation with solid test results.
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Here are the clean scope shots seen in the video.
Luc
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Here is another test using a 12.5 Ohm resistor as load with 5 Volts RMS across it = 2 Watts Output with no effect to the prime mover.
First shot is open coil, second is under load.
Luc
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Luc:
It looks like when you nearly short out the coil with the one-ohm resistor, the "true load" is an unknown inductance in series with the resistance of one ohm. It appears that the impedance of the inductance at your approximately 250 Hz excitation frequency is much higher than the one ohm of the resistor. Therefore, the current flow is determined by the impedance of the inductance and you see the 90 degree phase shift lag. Where the unknown inductance actually exists in the circuit is to be determined.
The next logical test if I can suggest something to you is to try load resistances of 100 ohms, 1K ohms, and 10K ohms. The assumption is that when the load resistor is much larger than the impedance of the unknown inductance then the load resistor will predominate for determining the phase of the current and the phase shift will disappear.
If you want to "earn extra brownie points" then you could calculate the resistive losses in the coil wire, and the resistive losses in the load resistance, and therefore the total resistive losses in the (coil + load resistor) system. For a typical pulse motor, it's the resistive losses in the system that will determine the stabilized RPM for the rotor, a.k.a. the "acceleration."
MileHigh
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Here is another test which is the maximum power output this coil can do using a 25 Ohm load @ 8.97 Volts RMS = 3.2 Watts
Any higher resistive load will start causing a load on the prime mover unless I could increase the RPM. However, the tool is at maximum RPM turning this small N42 1/2 inch ring magnet.
Luc
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Luc:
It looks like when you nearly short out the coil with the one-ohm resistor, the "true load" is an unknown inductance in series with the resistance of one ohm. It appears that the impedance of the inductance at your approximately 250 Hz excitation frequency is much higher than the one ohm of the resistor. Therefore, the current flow is determined by the impedance of the inductance and you see the 90 degree phase shift lag. Where the unknown inductance actually exists in the circuit is to be determined.
The next logical test if I can suggest something to you is to try load resistances of 100 ohms, 1K ohms, and 10K ohms. The assumption is that when the load resistor is much larger than the impedance of the unknown inductance then the load resistor will predominate for determining the phase of the current and the phase shift will disappear.
If you want to "earn extra brownie points" then you could calculate the resistive losses in the coil wire, and the resistive losses in the load resistance, and therefore the total resistive losses in the (coil + load resistor) system. For a typical pulse motor, it's the resistive losses in the system that will determine the stabilized RPM for the rotor, a.k.a. the "acceleration."
MileHigh
Hi MH,
see my other posts (one is above yours) with 12.5 and 25 Ohm (below yours) load tests.
The coils DC Resistance is 1.5 Ohm and Inductance is 26 mH
Luc
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Luc:
Any higher resistive load will start causing a load on the prime mover
If you keep on increasing the value of the load resistor at some point the power draw has to start decreasing. It doesn't really matter anyway if the prime mover slows down a bit. You can just "jump past" the resistances that give you higher power outputs if you want to. You notice you are also exploring the relationship between the value of the load resistance and the amount of power that actually goes into the load resistance. Another issue that I have already mentioned is the efficiency of the coil in terms of power lost in the coil windings vs. the useful power that goes into the load resistor. This is a forum about ENERGY, and any serious pulse motor builder should want to explore these issues.
I can see already from your new scope shots that the phase lag is decreasing as you increase the value of the load resistor.
MileHigh
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Hi MH,
see my other posts (one is above yours) with 12.5 and 25 Ohm (below yours) load tests.
The coils DC Resistance is 1.5 Ohm and Inductance is 26 mH
Luc
I don't want to jump the gun here, but with a 100-ohm load resistor the phase lag will probably nearly be gone. With a 1K-ohm load resistor the phase lag will probably not be viewable on your scope display.
This is showing you that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."
MileHigh
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Luc:
I can see already from your new scope shots that the phase lag is decreasing as you increase the value of the load resistor.
MileHigh
Yes, this is exactly what happens. I have known this for several years. As you raise the Resistance, at a certain value it will start to affect the prime mover since the phase delay starts to reduce. But if you increase the RPM you can retard the phase.
Keep in mind this is a small coil I put together just for a quick demo. It's not at ideal levels but good enough to demonstrate the effect.
If I had a stronger magnet and larger wire gauge coil, we could easily have 10X the output. I agree, even though a larger resistance value starts affecting the prime mover, however, it continues to output more power. So it may take 25 Watts from the prime mover at one point but it would be delivering 100 Watts. So why not use this extra 75 Watts at no cost to the prime mover?
Luc
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I see that you have a ferrite core in the generator coil. How far does the ferrite core extend into the generator coil?
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I see that you have a ferrite core in the generator coil. How far does the ferrite core extend into the generator coil?
It's all the way in the coil.
Luc
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Okay thanks. I was wondering if it only extended part way. If it only extended part way then that might be an explanation for the unknown inductance. It could be coming from the back of the coil if the ferrite was only half-way through the coil.
Your open-circuit Vrns for the generator coil is 11.7 volts. Therefore if you tried a load resistor of 100 ohms the power into the load resistor will only be about 1.37 watts. This will not slow down the prime mover. However, you would need a 2-watt 100-ohm resistor. It should be toasty warm to mildly hot if it is dissipating 1.37 watts. The phase lag should mostly be gone with a 100-ohm load resistor.
MileHigh
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Yes, this is exactly what happens. I have known this for several years. As you raise the Resistance, at a certain value it will start to affect the prime mover since the phase delay starts to reduce. But if you increase the RPM you can retard the phase.
Keep in mind this is a small coil I put together just for a quick demo. It's not at ideal levels but good enough to demonstrate the effect.
Luc
If you increase the RPM you will increase the impedance of the unknown inductance and then you will see an increase in the phase delay.
If I had a stronger magnet and larger wire gauge coil, we could easily have 10X the output. I agree, even though a larger resistance value starts affecting the prime mover, however, it continues to output more power. So it may take 25 Watts from the prime mover at one point but it would be delivering 100 Watts. So why not use this extra 75 Watts at no cost to the prime mover?
Why would say that you could have 10X the output? What is your reasoning for this? How do you turn 25 watts into 100 watts? What is your reasoning for this?
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If you increase the RPM you will increase the impedance of the unknown inductance and then you will see an increase in the phase delay.
Humm :-\ ... why do you keep writing unknown Inductance when I have already posted the DC Resistance and Inductance value?
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939 (http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939)
Why would say that you could have 10X the output? What is your reasoning for this? How do you turn 25 watts into 100 watts? What is your reasoning for this?
With ideal parameters, larger wire coil, core and magnet it could easily do 10X the power output.
There's an ideal resistance value depending on the above geometry that outputs max Watts out even though it may take a little power from the prime mover, example 25 Watts. So a more ideal coil could output 100 Watts, so if you deduct the 25 watts it took from your prime mover you are still left with 75 Watts extra. NO?
So, why not develop and use this effect to make generators more efficient?
Luc
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Luc:
This is a very important point and it almost slipped through the cracks:
As you raise the Resistance, at a certain value it will start to affect the prime mover since the phase delay starts to reduce.
This is an incorrect statement. It's actually a classic example of leading yourselves down a garden path and people should not start repeating this blindly.
As you increase the resistance the power being dissipated inside the coil and in the load resistance increases. At some point you will reach the maximum power, and then after that it will start to go down as the resistance increases.
The reason the prime mover slows down is because the increased total dissipated power is causing increasing Lenz drag on the prime mover. The phase delay change has nothing directly to do with this. The only things that come into play are how much power the prime mover can output at a given RPM and the Lenz drag at a given RPM. And we know the Lenz drag is a function of the value of the load resistor.
The "shocker" here is that you are using a Dremel drill as the prime mover, and it uses a normal motor that will respond to a mechanical load by increasing it's torque and corresponding power output. So you may be surprised that your load resistors are getting hot. That's in contrast to your typical anaemic pulse motor that has almost no capability to increase its power output under load.
MileHigh
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Humm :-\ ... why do you keep writing unknown Inductance when I have already posted the DC Resistance and Inductance value?
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939 (http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939)
With ideal parameters, larger wire coil, core and magnet it could easily do 10X the power output.
There's an ideal resistance value depending on the above geometry that outputs max Watts out even though it may take a little power from the prime mover, example 25 Watts. So a more ideal coil could output 100 Watts, so if you deduct the 25 watts it took from your prime mover you are still left with 75 Watts extra. NO?
So, why not develop and use this effect to make generators more efficient?
Luc
It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things. Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.
The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover. That turns the generator coil into an EMF source. This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance. It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source. As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.
Your power analysis is completely wrong. You have to look at the power as it flows. The AC mains power goes into the motor. The motor can output XX watts of mechanical power. Let's say that's 85 watts. There is a coupling factor into the generator. So the generator can get a max of say 80 watts of power. Therefore, under a best case scenario, the coil resistance plus the load resistance can dissipate a maximum of 80 watts. That's it - you are up against a wall. You can try the most ideal coil configuration possible and you are up against a wall of 80 watts with a 0.94 coupling factor. There is no going further than that. You can change the mechanical setup until you are blue in the face and increase the coupling factor so that it is very close to one and then your maximum power dissipated in the two resistances will be just less than 85 watts.
So this is a fundamental misunderstanding and you should study this. Power is always flowing from Point A to Point B to Point C. You can not magically invent power out of thin air by changing the coil configuration.
MileHigh
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It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things. Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.
The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover. That turns the generator coil into an EMF source. This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance. It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source. As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.
Your power analysis is completely wrong. You have to look at the power as it flows. The AC mains power goes into the motor. The motor can output XX watts of mechanical energy. Let's say that's 85 watts. There is a coupling factor into the generator. So the generator can get a max of say 80 watts of power. Therefore, under a best case scenario, the coil resistance plus the load resistance can dissipate a maximum of 80 watts. That's it - you are up against a wall. You can try the most ideal coil configuration possible and you are up against a wall of 80 watts with a 0.94 coupling factor. There is no going further than that. You can change the mechanical setup until you are blue in the face and increase the coupling factor so that it is very close to one and then your maximum power dissipated in the two resistances will be just less than 85 watts.
So this is a fundamental misunderstanding and you should study this. Power is always flowing from Point A to Point B to Point C. You can not magically invent power out of thin air by changing the coil configuration.
MileHigh
I wasn't suggesting to use this little 60 Watt dremel motor as a prime mover for a larger 100 Watts version. I'm not that stupid! ::) give me a little more credit.
I would appreciate you answering my question and not brush it off with "Your power analysis is completely wrong"
I'll give a realistic test scenario.
Lets say we have a generator turning under no load. The prime mover needs 100 Watts just to turn the magnet rotor with friction and cores losses.
That 100 Watts you never get back.
Now we load the generator and get 50 Watts out. The prime mover will consume around 160 Watts in total if the generator is 80% efficient.
Lets take the same generator scenario but we use a coil that does current delay and can output 50 Watts. However, lets say it's not the ideal design and actually loads the prime mover by 25 Watts when delivering 50 Watts. So now 125 Watts is our total input.
It's understood in both cases we cannot recover the 100 Watts to turn the generator, so lets just look at the extra Watts the prime mover needs to deliver the 50 Watts.
Scenario A 60 Watts needed
Scenario B 25 Watts needed
Scenario B is close to 60% less the A to deliver 50 Watts
Which generator would you want?
Luc
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I want the one that is at least 85% efficient as mid 90%'s are common. Incremental efficiency improvements are a good thing. They do not suggest free energy or that over unity is possible.
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Put the efficiency to a 100% if you want 8) ... you still cannot beat the above ::)
BTW, just noticed that post put you at exactly 4000 posts... maybe this is a sign of some kind ;D
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Put the efficiency to a 100% if you want 8) ... you still cannot beat the above ::)
BTW, just noticed that post put you at exactly 4000 posts... maybe this is a sign of some kind ;D
If I could find a 100% efficient machine such as some kind of motor or generator that would be a little bit better than the high 90% range that actually exist. It's the vertical wall at 100% that seems insurmountable.
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Luc or anyone,
we all know the rules, my question is: How can we delay something
that MUST have happened?
John.
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Luc:
I wasn't suggesting to use this little 60 Watt dremel motor as a prime mover for a larger 100 Watts version. I'm not that stupid! (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)) give me a little more credit.
I would appreciate you answering my question and not brush it off with "Your power analysis is completely wrong"
I simply did not understand your prose. In both of your explanations you don't mention the requirement for the prime mover to supply more mechanical power. The burden is on you to express yourself properly if you want people to understand you. What you seem to be saying is that a more efficient generator configuration in terms of electrical power out vs. mechanical power in is a good thing. Who can argue with that?
From your YouTube clip, quoting you:
No drag on the dremel. If there was you would see the Frequency reduce (= less RPM)
I can pull 3 Watts out of this miniature coil and magnet if I increase the Resistance with no drag on the dremel.
There is drag on the Dremel. Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.
You second sentence is baffling. Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel? If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.
Going back to the testing, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."
MileHigh
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Hi everyone,
I'm starting this topic to further study the effects of a generator coil which causes no load to its prime mover once connected to a 1 Ohm resistive load.
It seems we have many views about what could be happening in such a coil and maybe together we can find an explanation we can all agree upon.
I made a video of a simple test device that demonstrates a coil I consider having this quality.
A sense coil has been carefully positioned in order for both coil sinewaves to be in phase which can also serves as a rotor magnet timing reference.
During the video I didn't verbally explain because of the prime mover noise. However, it should be clear to most who have experience on the matter that once the coil is placed under the 1 Ohm load there is next to no change in Frequency (motor RPM). What's also clear is there's a delay in phase once I adjust the scope probe voltage division.
So the question is, what causes current to delay in a resistive load and what is going on in the coil to cause such an effect?
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c)
Regards
Luc
First step would be to show that the generator coil/core does not cause any load even without the resistor.
1) Run the prime mover with no coil or anything near the rotor and determine the real input power from the supply, = Value 1.
2) Then run the prime mover with the coil/core in place ready to load with the load resistor, but with no load and also determine
the real input power from the supply, = Value 2. If there is more input power used in step 2 then there is already a "parasitic"
load on the prime mover from the coil/core. Lenz depending on the coil/core properties the open circuit "Build in Lenz drag" can
made to be a lot so that there is ample parasitic drag to relieve with the load or it could be a little.
3) Then run the setup with a load in place and determine the real input power from the supply and the real output power, if the
load resistor dissipates power of a value greater than the value of the difference between "Value 1"and Value 2" and the input
power in step 3 is the same as the input power in step 1 or less then there might be something of interest.
My guess is that there will be an increase in input power in step 2 compared to step 1 = (increased Lenz), then when the load
is applied so as to not increase the input further still from the input power at step 2, then the output will be a result of reduced
losses, or converting the increased losses (as evidenced by the increased input at step 2 compared to step 1) into an output.
It's almost the old "problem - reaction - solution" paradigm.
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The answer to your question is in the MIT lecture on "inductance", I've linked the lecture a few times in threads relating to this effect.
It's a restriction of current due to frequency to high for inductance along with some other factors all well explained by conventional
theory and fitting into an under unity reality.
..
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Luc or anyone,
we all know the rules, my question is: How can we delay something
that MUST have happened?
John.
Accelerate away from the event.
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Luc:
I simply did not understand your prose. In both of your explanations you don't mention the requirement for the prime mover to supply more mechanical power. The burden is on you to express yourself properly if you want people to understand you. What you seem to be saying is that a more efficient generator configuration in terms of electrical power out vs. mechanical power in is a good thing. Who can argue with that?
From your YouTube clip, quoting you:
There is drag on the Dremel. Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.
You second sentence is baffling. Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel? If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.
Going back to the testing, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."
MileHigh
@Milehigh,
Here you see JLN'S setup with input power measuring instruments proving there is "Delayed Lenz Effect".
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Luc:
From your YouTube clip, quoting you:
There is drag on the Dremel. Again, the Dremel is acting like a conventional motor so the added Lenz drag of the generator coil load will only marginally reduce the speed of the Dremel while the electrical power draw of the Dremel will noticeably increase.
You second sentence is baffling. Why do you say there will be no drag on the Dremel? If you pull three watts from the generator coil there definitely will be drag on the Dremel.
MileHigh
The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts.
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
This is what I'm interested in and I think others should also be.
Keep in mind my test device is a toy at best but it's enough to demonstrate a value and I think it warrants more study.
I've said and tested this in the past that a larger scale device will produce much more power with the same benefits.
Luc
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First step would be to show that the generator coil/core does not cause any load even without the resistor.
1) Run the prime mover with no coil or anything near the rotor and determine the real input power from the supply, = Value 1.
It's a restriction of current due to frequency to high for inductance along with some other factors all well explained by conventional
theory and fitting into an under unity reality.
I have no problem showing the power meter with coil open vs on load.
What I disagree with is removing the core, because, If you took a standard PM generator and removed the cores you would find a drop in power requirement to it's prime mover. So there's no PM generator with zero eddy losses from the cores. Then why do such a test?
Also, I have not mentioned OU but rather suggesting a Generator efficiency boost
Luc
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synchro1,
there's an old saying " There's no point closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted".
If you can show an induced current without cutting lines you've done it!
John.
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The best way to do this test is to use an air core coil as the generating coil. This will eliminate the core drag on the prime mover that comes from the core it self. If you can show a speed up under load with an air core coil as the generating coil,then that is something well worth looking at.
@MH
Is the propagation of a magnetic field really the same as the speed of light?, and can you point me in the direction of any papers that show this to be the case?. The speed of light is not constant,as there are a few factors that can change the speed of light. Do these same factors change the speed of a magnetic field ?.
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Tinman,
I'd think speed of magnetic field in a vacuum and speed of light would be about the
same. I've often wondered about the sun and Curie temperatures and how that works.
John.
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The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts.
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
This is what I'm interested in and I think others should also be.
Keep in mind my test device is a toy at best but it's enough to demonstrate a value and I think it warrants more study.
I've said and tested this in the past that a larger scale device will produce much more power with the same benefits.
Luc
Sorry Luc, but you are leading yourself down a garden path. You know there is Lenz drag and you know the motor has to put out power to overcome that Lenz drag. The Kill-a-Watt meter is not designed to detect small changes in power. It's a device to use in the home to measure the power draw of appliances and other things like TVs, etc.
If you can mount the same magnet on a small 5-volt or 12-volt DC motor then you can easily prove this to yourself. I assume that you still have the big low-pass filter device that Poynt99 helped you make. I also assume that you have your fancy volt meter with six digits of precision after the decimal point. All that you have do is connect your battery or power supply to the motor with your low-pass filter device in between. Then connect your fancy volt meter across the current sensing resistor in your low-pass filter device and you will see the current draw by the small DC motor increase when the generator coil is driving a load resistor as clear as a bell.
MileHigh
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Synchro1:
I may try to look at the Naudin tests later. However, I have mentioned in the past that I am not too impressed by him.
Tinman:
I will let you look that up. Try searching on "speed of propagation of a magnetic field" or "electromagnetics 101" or something like that. The speed of EM waves is determined by the impedance of the medium based on the permeability and permittivity. I am assuming the same applies to a "DC" magnetic field. The subject matter of the speed of propagation of DC electric and magnetic fields does not crop up too much but I am sure you will find it somewhere.
MileHigh
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Hi All, When you energize a coreless drive coil that is pushing a permanent magnetic rotor, Does Lenz show up at the exact time as power on or does it manifest a few micro-seconds afterwards? I think it is the latter.
When you pass a magnet past a coreless gen coil that is loaded , Does lenz happen simutainously or does it lag?
I think it lags but not by much , you have to switch at just the right time.
Drive the wheel ,collect, drive , collect ...
artv
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Synchro1:
I may try to look at the Naudin tests later. However, I have mentioned in the past that I am not too impressed by him.
Tinman:
I will let you look that up. Try searching on "speed of propagation of a magnetic field" or "electromagnetics 101" or something like that. The speed of EM waves is determined by the impedance of the medium based on the permeability and permittivity. I am assuming the same applies to a "DC" magnetic field. The subject matter of the speed of propagation of DC electric and magnetic fields does not crop up too much but I am sure you will find it somewhere.
MileHigh
I can assure you that JLN is even more un-impressed by you!
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I can assure you that JLN is even more un-impressed by you!
That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.
This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.
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@Milehigh,
Take a look at this you SCHWEINEHUND:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA#t=292
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That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.
This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.
I agree MH
Just 1tthread without the bullshit would be great.
Brad
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@Tinman,
You blokes are the bullshit! I'm running a thread in tandem with this one entitled "Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay". The topic is self acceleration. JLN would achieve additional acceleration after his initial speed up if he repositioned his shorted output coil in a Little more closely toward the spinning rotor. Furthermore, this kind of repositioning advacement has an exponential effect on the acceleration.
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That's just trash-talk bullshit from you. A 50-year-old man acting like some harassing retarded jackass.
This is a thread that Synchro1 is not going to ruin. My suggestion is to let him know in no uncertain terms that we don't want that kind of trash behaviour ruining this thread.
Bullshit back on you stinking two faced double standared hypocryte. You're the trash talker with a reverse blame trip. Same baboon antic. That's because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're jut a know it all fraud!
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You are a 50-year-old man with severe psychological problems. We are asking you to act in a civil fashion on this thread and to stop disrupting it right now.
Here is a chance for you to redeem some face: Please explain in your own words what is going on in the JLN clip.
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Sorry Luc, but you are leading yourself down a garden path. You know there is Lenz drag and you know the motor has to put out power to overcome that Lenz drag. The Kill-a-Watt meter is not designed to detect small changes in power. It's a device to use in the home to measure the power draw of appliances and other things like TVs, etc.
If you can mount the same magnet on a small 5-volt or 12-volt DC motor then you can easily prove this to yourself. I assume that you still have the big low-pass filter device that Poynt99 helped you make. I also assume that you have your fancy volt meter with six digits of precision after the decimal point. All that you have do is connect your battery or power supply to the motor with your low-pass filter device in between. Then connect your fancy volt meter across the current sensing resistor in your low-pass filter device and you will see the current draw by the small DC motor increase when the generator coil is driving a load resistor as clear as a bell.
MileHigh
I've been out of the country for some time and don't have my equipment other than my USB scope and Inductance meter.
I can't use any motor as I'm using a single magnet and the effect needs the frequency to be in a certain range (200Hz or more), that's why I'm using the Dremel as it can go up to 35,000 RPM.
I know the Kill-a- Watt meter is not the ideal but it give a good ballpark. It has 0.0 decimal on the Watt reading and reads PF, so it should detect a half Watt change.
I'm also trying to get my hands on a variac and rectify to DC so we can get a more accurate power analysis.
Stay tuned
Luc
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Hi All, When you energize a coreless drive coil that is pushing a permanent magnetic rotor, Does Lenz show up at the exact time as power on or does it manifest a few micro-seconds afterwards? I think it is the latter.
When you pass a magnet past a coreless gen coil that is loaded , Does lenz happen simutainously or does it lag?
I think it lags but not by much , you have to switch at just the right time.
Drive the wheel ,collect, drive , collect ...
artv
The E/M field propagates at c/(uR*eR)0.5. In air: uR and eR are essentially 1.0. For something that is a cm away or less the propagation delay is under 35ps.
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Cross-posting from another thread because this is where it actually should be:
Part 1 of 2:
I am well aware that the slow speed of the collapsing magnetic field has nothing to do with the propagation speed of the magnetic field. My point there was(think) speed up under load ;) . Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load :)
Now-the last quote of yours above.
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.
I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.
I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.
Tinman, there is some ranting in this posting. It's specifically directed at you, it's simply a generic rant about the usual issues around being a newbie playing with electronics.
I assume that you read the full new thread about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect" set up by Gotoluc.
There is no such thing as "speed up under load." That has been covered many times already.
Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load
If you have an inductor in place of the load resistor, the current waveform will change but big deal. It will not cause "speed up under load." You are just talking now with wishful thinking. If you want to be serious you would have to do a setup and with your scope and create a timing diagram for what is happening including indicating when there is push or pull on the rotor on the timing diagram. That is what electronics is all about - looking at timing diagrams and analysing and understanding them. Without doing that your comments are all "just talk."
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.
Then why didn't you just state it? I don't believe in "alternative" political correctness just like I don't believe in "standard" political correctness. When it comes to electronics the truth is there right in front of your nose.
I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.
I am just going to repeat again that the real answer for someone that needs to investigate this for themselves is to construct a timing diagram and then analyse and understand it. Two hours of work on the bench will be worth more than two years and thousands of incorrect posts and hundreds of incorrect replications of the "delayed Lenz effect."
Continued in part 2...
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Part 2 of 2:
If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.
You can take your "just words" and go on a bench and do an experiment where you do the full timing and analysis of that timing diagram and then come back and look at your words to see if they are "just words" or if they are valid and have substance. Right now as far as I am concerned you are just repeating a "popular belief" that has infested the free energy forums for way too long. I don't accept this and instead of blindly believing something the better thing to do is roll up your shirtsleeves and see if all of this "delayed Lenz" talk has any merit or if it is complete BS.
Did you see on Luc's new thread how the explanation for what was taking place was derived from looking at the actual data that he got from doing some experiments?
I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?
Tinman, the problem is not that I don't do experiments, the problem is that you guys either don't do experiments or you do experiments but you don't have the knowledge or experience to correctly understand what you are looking at. Somebody makes a totally wrong conclusion and everybody believes them and agrees with them. Part of the problem is that many of you are afraid to disagree with each other. The other problem is that a newbie on a bench should be making timing diagrams for their circuits and then actually undertaking to understand what is going on. How often do you see someone construct a timing diagram?
I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.
I can envision this: You do a pulse motor/generator and confirm the "delayed Lenz effect" and make your power measurements, etc. But the job will not be done. Go the next step and construct a timing diagram and understand the timing diagram. That's the real deal and almost nobody ever does it.
It's simply ridiculous to say, "this is the delayed Lenz effect." Do you understand where I am coming from? The term "delayed Lenz effect" does not even exist in the real world of electronics and motors.
I have no doubt that you could show me the "delayed Lenz effect" but the real issue is what are you really looking at? The challenge for you after you do your tests is to put together one or two paragraphs of text that describe what you are observing in the real language of electronics and not this fake imaginary language like "delayed Lenz effect." There is an explanation for what you might be observing and it is guaranteed to be 100% conventional and 100% explainable using 100% standard electronics terms.
And there are no special or "magical" benefits to the "delayed Lanz effect." It's all just REAL, and the challenge for every experimenter in alternative energy is to master the basics of electronics if you want to play with electronics. You think that you can do something that is "amazing" and "out of the ordinary?" If so, prove to yourself that you really and truly know what you are doing first.
MileHigh
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I can't use any motor as I'm using a single magnet and the effect needs the frequency to be in a certain range (200Hz or more), that's why I'm using the Dremel as it can go up to 35,000 RPM.
I know the Kill-a- Watt meter is not the ideal but it give a good ballpark. It has 0.0 decimal on the Watt reading and reads PF, so it should detect a half Watt change.
I'm also trying to get my hands on a variac and rectify to DC so we can get a more accurate power analysis.
Stay tuned
Luc
Luc:
The evidence is already showing you that the Kill-a-Watt meter sucks for your application. Don't put your head in the sand. Think about this: For years you have been playing with pulse motors and generators and stuff like that. I am sure that many times you have loaded a generator coil with a load resistor and observed that the prime mover drew increased current, slowed down, and had to put out more torque. You know in all cases there is Lenz drag. If you lower the power output of the generator coil, the Lenz drag will proportionally decrease. This happens all the way down to zero. There no "magic cutoff" point where at some lower power output level "magic" happens and the Lenz drag disappears. We just explained why you see the phase shift in the current waveform when the load resistor is very low in value.
There is Lenz drag in your setup but you can't measure it. It is totally irresponsible for you to claim that you can connect a generator to the Dremel and get power out from the generator at no cost to the prime mover. You are just sticking your head in the sand in denial of what is really happening.
That's up to you to do, but it is your loss when you do things like that. You are just cheating yourself.
MileHigh
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I think the magnetic field is part of the photon (EM field) and if you take the energy from the prime mover in any way then it can not return to the prime mover and in effect you reduce its energy. That is the lens effect and we already know it is at the speed of light because it is photons (EM). There is no way to steal energy from the prime mover M field and expect the prime mover to not have a reduction in energy. If you steal the M energy you steal the E energy because the EM is one and the same photon electromagnetic energy! you cant take one before the other. So i say no lens delay. The only delays we are seeing is on our oscilloscopes because the coils are a storage device for the M which returns to the E on our scopes. So really the lens effect is just the transferring of energy from primary to secondary, however you arrange the coils magnets steel and motors or generators is only an efficiency change that is all. As the em moves down the wire we measure the M as current and E as voltage same old thing just photons. Its all photons. If i hand someone apples is there a delay to the time i loss the apples? of course not. thats silly. stop this foolish conversation.
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Luc:
The evidence is already showing you that the Kill-a-Watt meter sucks for your application. Don't put your head in the sand. Think about this: For years you have been playing with pulse motors and generators and stuff like that. I am sure that many times you have loaded a generator coil with a load resistor and observed that the prime mover drew increased current, slowed down, and had to put out more torque. You know in all cases there is Lenz drag. If you lower the power output of the generator coil, the Lenz drag will proportionally decrease. This happens all the way down to zero. There no "magic cutoff" point where at some lower power output level "magic" happens and the Lenz drag disappears. We just explained why you see the phase shift in the current waveform when the load resistor is very low in value.
There is Lenz drag in your setup but you can't measure it. It is totally irresponsible for you to claim that you can connect a generator to the Dremel and get power out from the generator at no cost to the prime mover. You are just sticking your head in the sand in denial of what is really happening.
That's up to you to do, but it is your loss when you do things like that. You are just cheating yourself.
MileHigh
There's nothing wrong with Luc's meter. There's something wrong with you and your inability to accept the facts. You're the one who needs to have his head examined! You are a compulsive lier.
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You are a compulsive lier.
I am sure that many people have read me for a long time and they know that I am honest. If I make a mistake or I don't know something then I will readily admit it.
Even you know this about me. So when you call me a "lier" (sic) you just keep on reinforcing to the readership what a fool and a buffoon and a liar you are. Since you are something like a 50-year-old grown man, and you intentionally act like a complete idiot online and can be very disruptive, coupled with the fact that you have ridiculous nonsensical fantasies about high-speed pulse motors - it's reasonable to conclude that you may indeed have severe psychological problems.
That's the last off-topic and disruptive posting I want to see from you on this thread.
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@Milehigh,
You're a very sick person. Who do you think you are to admonish me?
Quote from JLN:
"The loaded secondary coil is set at the phase shifting point and acts as a wave reflector, it returns the magnetic wave in opposition phase to the magnetic rotor in rotation, producing its acceleration" ...
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@Milehigh,
I'm telling you right now Bub, you have no right to lecture anyone about "Lenz Delay Effect" without fully reviewing JLN'S profesional experiments. You are really blindly ignorant about the subject! You're shameless about your stupidity. I'm so sick and tired of you I feel like defecating on your face!
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He's just a simple troll doing a days work, syncro.
Anybody know whats scale for a troll ?
Regards...
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Anyone who believes in the idea of free energy from a "Lenz delay" should study the graphic below.
Lenz' Law sets the orientation of induced voltage resulting from Faraday induction.
If a load is resistive, induced current is in phase with induced voltage and the resulting magnetic field at all times acts directly against the inducing current. This is a unity power factor.
If a load is purely reactive, then energy is stored in the load and later returned to the source, and no net energy conveys to the load. This is a zero power factor.
If a load is resonant, then the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance magnitudes are equal. The load appears resistive. In the case of a series L-C, the resistance appears low. In the case of a parallel L-C, the resistance appears very large.
If a load is partially resistive and partially reactive, then more energy transfers to the load each cycle than is returned. This is a power factor greater than zero but less than one.
Can making a load reactive unload a driver? Of course it can: Less work is done on the load. In the extreme case the load effectively disappears, along with any useful work that could have been done by transferring net energy to the load.
Can making a load reactive actually drive the source? Not net across one or more complete cycles. A reactive load can only return less energy in any given cycle than supplied by the source.
Can resonance help? No, at resonance, the load appears resistive as either an effective short circuit across the source, or an open circuit.
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@MarkE,
Where's the ferrite core in your schemaic? Gotoluc has a ferrite core exrending away from his ouput coil that interfaces with the spinning rotor magnet. The "Lenz Delay Effect" Luc demonstrates is a direct consequene of this core extensión..All that crap you posted is completely irrelevent!
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@MarkE,
Where's the ferrite core in your schemaic?
Synchro1 you can use any type of core that you like in the transformer.
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@MarkE,
Laminated cores work completely different from solid iron. What's the big idea of confusing everyone with a topic shift that stark?
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@MarkE,
Here's the kind of core that produces a magnetic wave shift in a transformer:
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@MarkE,
Laminated cores work completely different from solid iron. What's the big idea of confusing everyone with a topic shift that stark?
The explanation of induced voltage and current, and the effects of phase shift between the induced voltage and current that have been labeled with the misnomer "Lenz delay" are quite independent of the implementation specifics. One post back you asked about ferrite, now you are on about laminations and solid iron. The physics is independent of the materials. Properties of any particular material only set coefficients.
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Without any steel in the system , Do the induced fields disappear the instant power is cut?
When the gen coil is a max output and you dump it into a drive coil, the gen coil now creates an opposite pole ?
But when you cut power to the drive coil does it create an opposite pole?
I know steel cores and rotors give much better results , but that is the achilies heel.
IMHO artv
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" I made a lot more electricity with steel than I ever made with copper."
-Ed Leedskalnin
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http://www.vasantcorporation.com/downloads/Delayed_Lenzs_Law_04-27-2014.pdf
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Without any steel in the system , Do the induced fields disappear the instant power is cut?
When the gen coil is a max output and you dump it into a drive coil, the gen coil now creates an opposite pole ?
But when you cut power to the drive coil does it create an opposite pole?
I know steel cores and rotors give much better results , but that is the achilies heel.
IMHO artv
No, but they don't last very long. How long they last depends on how permeable the conductors are and how conductive they are. By asking about a case where there is no steel, I take it you mean no material more permeable than air. In that case the decay depends on how good a conductor you have. In a superconductor there would be no decay.
Induced voltage always, always, always conforms to Lenz' Law. The current that results can be out of phase which then allows the load to store and return some of the energy transferred. Any change in the magnetic field density, increasing or decreasing is opposed by the image current.
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http://www.vasantcorporation.com/downloads/Delayed_Lenzs_Law_04-27-2014.pdf
The key slide is slide #32. Beyond that he offers a lot of speculation that he has not confirmed more than seven months later. Why? See slide #32.
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Part 2 of 2:
You can take your "just words" and go on a bench and do an experiment where you do the full timing and analysis of that timing diagram and then come back and look at your words to see if they are "just words" or if they are valid and have substance. Right now as far as I am concerned you are just repeating a "popular belief" that has infested the free energy forums for way too long. I don't accept this and instead of blindly believing something the better thing to do is roll up your shirtsleeves and see if all of this "delayed Lenz" talk has any merit or if it is complete BS.
Did you see on Luc's new thread how the explanation for what was taking place was derived from looking at the actual data that he got from doing some experiments?
Tinman, the problem is not that I don't do experiments, the problem is that you guys either don't do experiments or you do experiments but you don't have the knowledge or experience to correctly understand what you are looking at. Somebody makes a totally wrong conclusion and everybody believes them and agrees with them. Part of the problem is that many of you are afraid to disagree with each other. The other problem is that a newbie on a bench should be making timing diagrams for their circuits and then actually undertaking to understand what is going on. How often do you see someone construct a timing diagram?
I can envision this: You do a pulse motor/generator and confirm the "delayed Lenz effect" and make your power measurements, etc. But the job will not be done. Go the next step and construct a timing diagram and understand the timing diagram. That's the real deal and almost nobody ever does it.
It's simply ridiculous to say, "this is the delayed Lenz effect." Do you understand where I am coming from? The term "delayed Lenz effect" does not even exist in the real world of electronics and motors.
I have no doubt that you could show me the "delayed Lenz effect" but the real issue is what are you really looking at? The challenge for you after you do your tests is to put together one or two paragraphs of text that describe what you are observing in the real language of electronics and not this fake imaginary language like "delayed Lenz effect." There is an explanation for what you might be observing and it is guaranteed to be 100% conventional and 100% explainable using 100% standard electronics terms.
And there are no special or "magical" benefits to the "delayed Lanz effect." It's all just REAL, and the challenge for every experimenter in alternative energy is to master the basics of electronics if you want to play with electronics. You think that you can do something that is "amazing" and "out of the ordinary?" If so, prove to yourself that you really and truly know what you are doing first.
MileHigh
Are you saying i dont do experiment's?. Are you saying i have no bench time?. Are you saying i am still unable to interpret what i see?.
Well it's the weekend here now,and it's time to build. Soon it will be your time to tell me what you see. But straight of the bat,there is a lenz force delay,as a magnetic field dose have a speed limit-even if it is the speed of light. So how hard is it to decrease the reaction time of the CEMF-is it in any way possable to delay that CEMF that acts against our generators rotor?. Well we shall see. I will make this setup as simple as i can. I will be using an air core coil-no core material except air.Goodbye eddy current losess,and any thing else that causes drag on the rotor.
Wouldnt it be a hoot if we could arange magnets on the rotor so that they were actually attracted to the CEMF field. Now how would you manage to flip poles like that without looseing the generator effect?. ???
Has any one here driven a stepper motor to very high RPM and checked out what happens when you load the output. Start with about 10 000 rpm-->give it a shot guys.
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The trouble is that no matter what one does to manipulate an induction load, the net result spans between: storing energy temporarily and giving almost all of that energy back on a cycle by cycle bases, or dissipating / conveying all of the induced energy. If you want energy to go through the thing you are subjecting to a changing magnetic field, such as: an intentional motor, then offsetting the phase whether by a passive L-C network or construction of a transmission line stores some but never all of the energy induced and if arranged just right will give almost all of it which can later be delivered back to the source. On a cycle by cycle basis it would almost be as though the induction load did not exist. With respect to seeing that this is what is going on, good quality measurements can be very helpful.
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Lenz delay doesn't make any sense. Someone needs to show an example of
the prediction made by Lenz's law not doing what is expected of it. The late
after effects are something else!
John.
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Lenz delay doesn't make any sense. Someone needs to show an example of
the prediction made by Lenz's law not doing what is expected of it. The late
after effects are something else!
John.
Lenz' Law is being confused for Faraday's Law of Induction. And current is being confused for voltage. Cutting through that, there is a legitimate observation that current induced into a circuit can be out of phase with the inducing magnetic field. The problem is that the delay amounts to storing energy from the source and returning some of that energy to the source instead of to the load.
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Tinman:
In the first half of my posting I stated that my comments were geneic and not directed at anyone in particular.
Mark often makes great succinct technical arguments and makes graphics and I thank him for that. Here is my version of a short summary of the issues:
1. With a resistive load on the generator coil, there is no Lenz delay, it's simply impossible.
2. With a capacitive or inductive reactive load then there is a Lenz drag during the charging phase and then a push when the reactive load discharges its stored energy for a net gain of zero (ignoring losses.)
3. What has only been mentioned a few times is the "fake out" Lenz delay. This is when the generator coil and load together dissipate less power when you are making the Lenz delay test as compared to the original configuration. Less power dissipated by the generator coil + load equals a higher RPM for the rotor. This is a no-brainer and many beginning experimenters simply failed to make these measurements.
4. Changes to the mechanical and electrical configuration of the setup when doing a Lenz delay test can inadvertently change the overall average electrical impedance of the pulse motor and where the power flows in the system. If the impedance goes down the current draw from the power supply will increase and most likely the rotor will speed up. If the impedance goes up the current draw from the power supply will decrease and most likely the rotor will slow down. That's what's taking place in the JLN clip that was linked to. That is another "fake out" and you have to be on your toes to not hoodwink yourself.
When it comes to #4, you might make a change and the rotor speed will in increase by just a few percent. Something like simply lowering the stresses on the main bearing while rotating at high RPM could cause an effect like this.
What's been happening over the past two years is that many amateur experimenters when working with their pulse motors will say "delayed Lenz effect" when they observe a speed up in the RPM for whatever reason. They don't actually investigate the real reasons, they just use the blanket term "delayed Lenz effect" when they see a speed up and they are convinced that they have "replicated the effect."
As a generic shout out, guys and gals, you have to do better than this. Working an investigation together might help where people encourage each other to get the right answers. You have to think "outside of the box" and in this context thinking "outside of the box" actually means that you do a proper investigation using standard electronics principles and measurement techniques. You all can do better if you work together and encourage each other to improve your craft.
MileHigh
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The explanation of induced voltage and current, and the effects of phase shift between the induced voltage and current that have been labeled with the misnomer "Lenz delay" are quite independent of the implementation specifics. One post back you asked about ferrite, now you are on about laminations and solid iron. The physics is independent of the materials. Properties of any particular material only set coefficients.
“ When ferromagnetic materials are used in applications like an iron-core solenoid, the relative permeability gives you an idea of the kind of multiplication of the applied magnetic field that can be achieved by having the ferromagnetic core present. So for an ordinary iron core you might expect a magnification of about 200 compared to the magnetic field produced by the solenoid current with just an air core. This statement has exceptions and limits, since you do reach a saturation magnetization of the iron core quickly, as illustrated in the discussion of hysteresis".
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Tinman:
In the first half of my posting I stated that my comments were geneic and not directed at anyone in particular.
Mark often makes great succinct technical arguments and makes graphics and I thank him for that. Here is my version of a short summary of the issues:
1. With a resistive load on the generator coil, there is no Lenz delay, it's simply impossible.
2. With a capacitive or inductive reactive load then there is a Lenz drag during the charging phase and then a push when the reactive load discharges its stored energy for a net gain of zero (ignoring losses.)
3. What has only been mentioned a few times is the "fake out" Lenz delay. This is when the generator coil and load together dissipate less power when you are making the Lenz delay test as compared to the original configuration. Less power dissipated by the generator coil + load equals a higher RPM for the rotor. This is a no-brainer and many beginning experimenters simply failed to make these measurements.
4. Changes to the mechanical and electrical configuration of the setup when doing a Lenz delay test can inadvertently change the overall average electrical impedance of the pulse motor and where the power flows in the system. If the impedance goes down the current draw from the power supply will increase and most likely the rotor will speed up. If the impedance goes up the current draw from the power supply will decrease and most likely the rotor will slow down. That's what's taking place in the JLN clip that was linked to. That is another "fake out" and you have to be on your toes to not hoodwink yourself.
When it comes to #4, you might make a change and the rotor speed will in increase by just a few percent. Something like simply lowering the stresses on the main bearing while rotating at high RPM could cause an effect like this.
What's been happening over the past two years is that many amateur experimenters when working with their pulse motors will say "delayed Lenz effect" when they observe a speed up in the RPM for whatever reason. They don't actually investigate the real reasons, they just use the blanket term "delayed Lenz effect" when they see a speed up and they are convinced that they have "replicated the effect."
As a generic shout out, guys and gals, you have to do better than this. Working an investigation together might help where people encourage each other to get the right answers. You have to think "outside of the box" and in this context thinking "outside of the box" actually means that you do a proper investigation using standard electronics principles and measurement techniques. You all can do better if you work together and encourage each other to improve your craft.
MileHigh
Not sure how the pulse motor side of things came to be in this !!lenz delay!! thread,as it is more directed at a generator or transformer setup.
Like i said,there is a delay,and always has been. It's just that the delay is that small it's not worth noteing. We can look at a pulsed inductors magnetic field like dropping a stone into a pond. We send a pulse of power to the inductor,and a wave(magnetic wave) radiates out from that inductor-just like a wave of water radiates out from the point in the pond where the stone was dropped.The produced wave from the inductor takes time to get to the secondary(generator) coil-just like it takes time for the wave in the water to reach the bank of the pond.That magnetic wave first creates a voltage across that secondary coil,and then followed by current through that coil. Once current starts to build,the generator coil will build a magnetic field that apposes that which created it-but it IS slightly out of phase(delayed) with the field that created it. the greater the distance between the two,the greater the delay.Current flow is what creates and determonds the magnetic field in an inductor-not voltage,and both distance and frequency determonds as to how great the delay between the transmitter and reciever is.
Have you ever been down the beach and watched the wave's roll in?. You get a wave roll up the beach,then roll back down into the ocean. Some times this wave thats rolling back out into the ocean meets the next wave rolling in,and you get a large peak when they meet. But some times you see the wave that is rolling out pass straight through the wave thats rolling in,and both waves continue on in the direction they were flowing-seemingly uninterupted.
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You are on the wrong track Tinman. The speed of light or magnetic field propagation speed does not affect the operation of a transformer or pulse motor at the frequencies we are normally dealing with. It's just a few picoseconds for the magnetic field propagation.
Here is a fun factoid:
The speed of light is 300 million meters per second. Therefore light crosses one meter in about 1/300,000,000th of a second, which is 3ns -- or roughly 1ns per foot.
A modern quad-core CPU running at 3GHz, assuming each core is swallowing two instructions per cycle, processes 8 instructions every 0.33ns.
It is processing a couple of dozen instructions in the time it takes the light to get from your monitor to your eye.
Is it just me, or is that kind of cool?
(it also hints that it wont be long before engineers are running up against the speed of light in all sorts of places)
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122654 (http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122654)
MileHigh
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Magnet wave traveling through ferrite core:
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The relative permeability is just a coefficient. It does not change the physics.
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Magnet wave traveling through ferrite core:
Round and round we go. The very effects that are used to claim "delayed Lenz" effect are in fact the result of Faraday induction acting immediately and in the orientation predicted by Lenz' law.
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@MarkE,
Everything you guys say is just vapid meaningless bullcrap.
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Everything you guys say is just vapid meaningless bullcrap.
This is the dead end where Synchro1 has no place to go. We all know that he can't make a technical argument to back up his fantasy talk. So the only place left to go is the bad attitude and the meaningless brush-off. In other words, time to run away.
This is an example of the psychological problems on display.
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@MarkE,
Everything you guys say is just vapid meaningless bullcrap.
Synchro1 I have offered you detailed explanations of the physics which you are free to test at your convenience. If you are going to stomp your feet and exclaim "no it isn't" then you waste your opportunity to learn.
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Take a look at this video. "Lenz Delay Effect" is a result of magnetization in a core:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ5xnyj7xe4
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You are on the wrong track Tinman. The speed of light or magnetic field propagation speed does not affect the operation of a transformer or pulse motor at the frequencies we are normally dealing with. It's just a few picoseconds for the magnetic field propagation.
Here is a fun factoid:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122654 (http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122654)
MileHigh
When something is delayed,that dosnt just mean how long it takes to get from one point to another. It can also mean we delay the time at which point the magnetic field in the generating coil is allowed to be produced. An open coil will not produce current,and thus no CEMF will be created-but a voltage still exist across that coil.If we delay the time a load is placed on the coil,we also delay the lenz force relative to that of the position of the rotor magnet. What has happened here is that you(and others) asume that it is the prpagation speed of the magnetic field that is said to be delayed,when in actual fact it can be the delay in time of an allowed current flow through the generating coil. This is nothing new,and i really do not understand as to how any one can say that a CEMF cannot be delayed relative to that of the inducing magnetic field. PM fields can be flipped or miss aligned to that of the CEMF produced from the generating coil. I want to see some one show !speed up under load) with an air core coil.
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When something is delayed,that dosnt just mean how long it takes to get from one point to another. It can also mean we delay the time at which point the magnetic field in the generating coil is allowed to be produced. An open coil will not produce current,and thus no CEMF will be created-but a voltage still exist across that coil.If we delay the time a load is placed on the coil,we also delay the lenz force relative to that of the position of the rotor magnet. What has happened here is that you(and others) asume that it is the prpagation speed of the magnetic field that is said to be delayed,when in actual fact it can be the delay in time of an allowed current flow through the generating coil. This is nothing new,and i really do not understand as to how any one can say that a CEMF cannot be delayed relative to that of the inducing magnetic field. PM fields can be flipped or miss aligned to that of the CEMF produced from the generating coil. I want to see some one show !speed up under load) with an air core coil.
@Timan,
I know you don't need to be reminded that the air core of a coil has a permeability rating somewhere between a vacuum and nanochyrstaline. The aircore coil shares all the same characteristics of other cores with the notable exception of "Lenz Delay Threshold". The rotor just needs to travel faster before it gets the effect with an air core coil. The greater the load the closer it is to a dead short. Air magnetizes! The "Lenz Delay Effect" in an air core coil is the result of the magnetization of the air!
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"Depending on the distance along the soft iron rod, the phase of the magnetic field of the fluctuation can be in leading or in lagging with respect to the magnetic field of the magnetic rotor".
The same principle applies to the air core. The "Lag or Lead" depends on the magnetic viscosity of the "Core Air".
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just looking the on youtube ( not mine )
the motor is very simple maybe delayed lenz 100%
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94JetHjkipk )
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Take a look at this video. "Lenz Delay Effect" is a result of magnetization in a core:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ5xnyj7xe4
The experiment shows that the magnetic field sensor sees field intensity versus left right position that goes to zero and then inverts polarity. What that implies is that from the sensor's point of observation there are two sources 180 degrees out of phase along the length of the laminations.
There was no measurement of induced voltage anywhere. Lenz' Law is a statement of the orientation of a current that results from Faraday induction. The experiment fails to measure either induced voltage or current.
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When something is delayed,that dosnt just mean how long it takes to get from one point to another. It can also mean we delay the time at which point the magnetic field in the generating coil is allowed to be produced. An open coil will not produce current,and thus no CEMF will be created-but a voltage still exist across that coil.If we delay the time a load is placed on the coil,we also delay the lenz force relative to that of the position of the rotor magnet. What has happened here is that you(and others) asume that it is the prpagation speed of the magnetic field that is said to be delayed,when in actual fact it can be the delay in time of an allowed current flow through the generating coil. This is nothing new,and i really do not understand as to how any one can say that a CEMF cannot be delayed relative to that of the inducing magnetic field. PM fields can be flipped or miss aligned to that of the CEMF produced from the generating coil. I want to see some one show !speed up under load) with an air core coil.
Placing some impedance up to and including infinite in series with a conductor does not delay or interrupt the induced voltage. It impacts the current that results from that voltage.
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When something is delayed,that dosnt just mean how long it takes to get from one point to another. It can also mean we delay the time at which point the magnetic field in the generating coil is allowed to be produced. An open coil will not produce current,and thus no CEMF will be created-but a voltage still exist across that coil.If we delay the time a load is placed on the coil,we also delay the lenz force relative to that of the position of the rotor magnet. What has happened here is that you(and others) asume that it is the prpagation speed of the magnetic field that is said to be delayed,when in actual fact it can be the delay in time of an allowed current flow through the generating coil. This is nothing new,and i really do not understand as to how any one can say that a CEMF cannot be delayed relative to that of the inducing magnetic field. PM fields can be flipped or miss aligned to that of the CEMF produced from the generating coil. I want to see some one show !speed up under load) with an air core coil.
I am not sure what mechanism you are proposing to delay the placing of the load on the coil. It almost sounds like you are talking about adding a switch where you control the timing of the switch. I am not sure what you mean by CEMF relative to your proposition. If you want to document what you are discussing in more detail then I may be able to comment on it.
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A number of years ago I telephoned Canada and spoke to some students who had claimed replication of the Heins
toroid device. They were extremely nervous and denied their own video, saying it was not cop >1.
Some time later I communicated with R over His Muller replication. He was terrified. He had received a visit from the CIA.
He came to an agreement which essentially was, "Never show a device self running".
We will never probably see a self running device until the powers that be get out of oil.
I have come across documents which I believe to be authentic which order patent offices to send apparent free energy device patent requests to head office.
Certain posters on this forum know what I am talking about.
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Makes a good story but if there ever was a viable self-runner nobody would be able
to stop it. In over ten years of looking I've never seen anything that looks remotely
like being a success.
Look at how old Rossi has festered on for years and years. Truth is that one good
simple test would prove it one way or the other.
John.
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A number of years ago I telephoned Canada and spoke to some students who had claimed replication of the Heins
toroid device. They were extremely nervous and denied their own video, saying it was not cop >1.
Some time later I communicated with R over His Muller replication. He was terrified. He had received a visit from the CIA.
He came to an agreement which essentially was, "Never show a device self running".
We will never probably see a self running device until the powers that be get out of oil.
I have come across documents which I believe to be authentic which order patent offices to send apparent free energy device patent requests to head office.
Certain posters on this forum know what I am talking about.
I see the CIA(men in black) claim to be rubbish-a get out of jail free card. It is something fraudsters use as a means to never have to show there !so called! self runner-free energy device. How many times have we heard this one ::)
You point me in the direction of plan's,or a good description of one of these so called self runners,and i will build it and post it for the world to see. It seems that my country must be all out of MIB,and im not sure we even have a CIA-regardless of that,most of us Aussies arnt intimidated by government agencies and there bullying tactics anyway. Now why do you suppose that no free energy device claims come from a country that dont have this MIB problem? I mean chas campbell's so called free energy device was plastered all over the news nation wide,and he never got a visit from the MIB or CIA-->probably because they know we'd just tell them to piss off anyway.
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Tinman,
I totally agree, just a semi plausible excuse,
John.
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The experiment shows that the magnetic field sensor sees field intensity versus left right position that goes to zero and then inverts polarity. What that implies is that from the sensor's point of observation there are two sources 180 degrees out of phase along the length of the laminations.
There was no measurement of induced voltage anywhere. Lenz' Law is a statement of the orientation of a current that results from Faraday induction. The experiment fails to measure either induced voltage or current.
There's only magnetizem in the laminated core. The core would need output windings to transform the magnetic flux into electricity. You may as well ask how much current and voltage there is in a permanent magnet. There is none. Only the magnetizem from the energised coil is transfered to the laminated core.
DLE is caused by a "Magnetic Phase Lag" in a core material and has nothing to do with current or voltage!
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Just like the output coil position of 30mm in JLN'S rotor video, the laminated core has a position where the output windings should be located to cause a lead rather then a lag when the reverse field from the induced current in the output wraps is reflected back to the primary. A lead out positon from the "Echo Wave" output coil would reinforce the primary input and lower power consumption. A lag position would cause the draw to rise!
Transformer efficiency can be improved just like generator coils like Gotoluc proved with proper applicaton of the DLE.
I have a "Wall Socket Watt Meter" identical to Gotoluc's that I measured the accuracy of by comparing Lux Meter watt measurements from rated bulbs to, and it demonstrated a tenth of a watt accuracy! It's not a piece of crap.
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Anyone following my other thread on "Magnet Cores, Demagnetization and Lenz Delay" can understand how a variable laminated transformer core, resembling a radio tuner, would result in an overunity power plant.
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There's only magnetizem in the laminated core. The core would need output windings to transform the magnetic flux into electricity. You may as well ask how much current and voltage there is in a permanent magnet. There is none. Only the magnetizem from the energised coil is transfered to the laminated core.
DLE is caused by a "Magnetic Phase Lag" in a core material and has nothing to do with current or voltage!
That is not true. An electric current and voltage exist in the core as well-->the core becomes 1 half of a capacitor,and the polarity is determond by the direction of current flow in the inductor.
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That is not true. An electric current and voltage exist in the core as well-->the core becomes 1 half of a capacitor,and the polarity is determond by the direction of current flow in the inductor.
There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux. That's what causes eddy currents. However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.
I don't get what you mean by the capacitor though. Do you mean a literal capacitor, or are you using the term "capacitor" as a model for the energy in the transformer core?
What's going on inside a working transformer core while AC power is flowing through it is an interesting subject open to debate. It's somewhat hard to visualize because in a sense "nothing" is going on. People smarter than me might have a definitive answer on that one.
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There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux. That's what causes eddy currents. However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.
I'm going to take another stab at this because I am not sure of myself. It gets complicated because you have an electric field that travels in a closed loop. Electric fields are not "supposed" to travel in closed loops, they are supposed to go from point A to point B. When you go around the closed loop you are back at the same voltage. So therein lies the complicated part, the "paradox" if you will. When you travel along an electric field you are always supposed to measure a voltage between point A and point B.
So my correction is this: When you have eddy currents, it's due to the presence of an electric field, but you can's actually measure a voltage between two points along the circle. It's because the electric field and the CEMF field exist at the same time and in the same place everywhere along the circle. So you can see the effects of the electric field, the eddy currents, but you can't actually measure a voltage between to points on the circle. Nor can you measure an electric field along the circle.
It's very similar to the enigma of the issue of measuring the electric flux, or B field, inside the core of a working transformer.
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There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux. That's what causes eddy currents. However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.
I don't get what you mean by the capacitor though. Do you mean a literal capacitor, or are you using the term "capacitor" as a model for the energy in the transformer core?
What's going on inside a working transformer core while AC power is flowing through it is an interesting subject open to debate. It's somewhat hard to visualize because in a sense "nothing" is going on. People smarter than me might have a definitive answer on that one.
The capacitor consist of one plate being the core,and the other plate being the copper winding's. the voltage and current between the two is very measurable and quite cappable of running an LED. If you have two pulsed inductors with laminated cores that are 180* out of phase with each other,you can draw AC power from the two isolated cores alone.
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There are all sorts of transformer models showing parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances, etc. It depends on how deep and detailed you want to get. Typically the deeper you go in the modeling the higher the frequencies are that you are considering. In almost all cases at the normal operating frequency for a typical transformer you can ignore the parasitic components.
The important thing to keep in mind is when the parasitic components should be part of the discussion and when they can be omitted from the discussion.
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I'm going to take another stab at this because I am not sure of myself. It gets complicated because you have an electric field that travels in a closed loop. Electric fields are not "supposed" to travel in closed loops, they are supposed to go from point A to point B. When you go around the closed loop you are back at the same voltage. So therein lies the complicated part, the "paradox" if you will. When you travel along an electric field you are always supposed to measure a voltage between point A and point B.
So my correction is this: When you have eddy currents, it's due to the presence of an electric field, but you can's actually measure a voltage between two points along the circle. It's because the electric field and the CEMF field exist at the same time and in the same place everywhere along the circle. So you can see the effects of the electric field, the eddy currents, but you can't actually measure a voltage between to points on the circle. Nor can you measure an electric field along the circle.
It's very similar to the enigma of the issue of measuring the electric flux, or B field, inside the core of a working transformer.
Non-zero impedance means that a voltage does develop across the conductor. If you anchor a probe at some point on the surface and then move the other probe in the direction of the eddy current, you will observe a voltage that increases in magnitude to the half way point and then comes back down to zero.
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Non-zero impedance means that a voltage does develop across the conductor. If you anchor a probe at some point on the surface and then move the other probe in the direction of the eddy current, you will observe a voltage that increases in magnitude to the half way point and then comes back down to zero.
Insulated silicon steel laminations like JLN used cut the eddy currents down to practically zero. There's a difference between an "Ideal" transformer and a practical one. Everything carries some level of electrical charge. This factor is too trivial to consider as part of an overall analysis of the fundamental operating principles of Transformers. Only "magnetic flux" exists in the core of the "ideal" version. Like the Op Amp law that no current passes through the inputs.
Here's another fine video from Gotoluc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUmVSf878aY
Luc clearly shows no rise in input with the addition of a load.
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Thanks Synchro for posting that video!... I forgot about it as it was done back in 2011.
I made that video in my sailboat ;D lol
This is an example of one of Thane Heins ReGen-X coils he lent me so I can test a solid state version using my H-Bridge.
The input to H-Bridge was 62.5vdc @ 0.00829 Amps = 500mW
H-Bridge Frequency was 480Hz
I would say the 79 Ohm DC resistance of Shaded Pole motor coil (primary) was consuming most of that 500mW input
we can see the secondary (regen-x) coil output has 4.11vrms across the 150 Ohm load resistor = 112mW which had no effect on the input power when place under load.
Good example
Luc
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Insulated silicon steel laminations like JLN used cut the eddy currents down to practically zero.
No, insulated laminations cut losses at mains frequencies usually to a few percent.There's a difference between an "Ideal" transformer and a practical one. Everything carries some level of electrical charge. This factor is too trivial to consider as part of an overall analysis of the fundamental operating principles of Transformers. Only "magnetic flux" exists in the core of the "ideal" version. Like the Op Amp law that no current passes through the inputs.
If you are arguing for an ideal transformer then such a device exhibits no magnetic viscosity either.
Here's another fine video from Gotoluc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUmVSf878aY
Luc clearly shows no rise in input with the addition of a load.
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No, insulated laminations cut losses at mains frequencies usually to a few percent.If you are arguing for an ideal transformer then such a device exhibits no magnetic viscosity either.
magnetic viscosity
(electromagnetism)
"The existence of a time delay between a change in the magnetic field applied to a ferromagnetic material and the resulting change in magnetic induction which is too great to be explained by the existence of eddy currents".
The ideal transformer just eliminates the eddy losses, the time delay remains.
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magnetic viscosity
(electromagnetism)
"The existence of a time delay between a change in the magnetic field applied to a ferromagnetic material and the resulting change in magnetic induction which is too great to be explained by the existence of eddy currents".
The ideal transformer just eliminates the eddy losses, the time delay remains.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/indexen.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/DLE19en.htm
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http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/indexen.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/DLE19en.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA)
I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there. If you disagree feel free to make your points.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA
Milehigh and MarkE have burdened themselves and everyone else with an entrenched and intractable position on the DLE that has turned them both into a big pain in the ass. They leave the rest of us wondering if they're paid by a "Tar Sand Corperation" to feed non-stop haywire into this forum.
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I believe there may be a way to show the delay between the build up of current in the inductor and the propagation of the magnetic field. I will look into it as soon as I get back home-which im hopeing is today. Hard to get things done when your on the road 5 to 6 days a week.
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Milehigh and MarkE have burdened themselves and everyone else with an entrenched and intractable position on the DLE that has turned them both into a big pain in the ass. They leave the rest of us wondering if they're paid by a "Tar Sand Corperation" to feed non-stop haywire into this forum.
Synchro1 you can wonder about all manner of silly ideas. The problem is that any idea is only as good as the evidence that supports it.
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Hi everyone,
as promised here is a video demo with accurate input power measurements done by using a DC input to the Dremel (universal motor) instead of AC which is difficult to measure.
The power is supplied by a variac connected to a full wave bridge rectifier and a 1000uf DC capacitor to smooth the DC.
Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKByKqLV0M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKByKqLV0M)
TEST RESULTS:
Input to Dremel on load is 60vdc @ 0.500ma = 30W
Input to Dremel off load is 60.3vdc @ 0.475ma = 28.64W
Power difference is 1.36W of extra power consumption by prime mover when coil is on load
Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W = 1.1W of gained power output which is not supplied by prime mover.
You may of noticed this is not the same coil as the first test since that one was not performing very well (too small), so I made a new one since the first one only had a half a watt gain and I was sure it would of been argued that it's just measurement error.
So I went trough the time, trouble and expense to make this new one so there's no second guessing.
Like I have said, a coil can be made to give more of this effect but more testing needs to be done to understand what are the ideal perimeters as I've seen coils with more gain then this new one but I think it's a good starting point.
A stronger magnet will also give more output. If someone is ready to pay for a larger 1" Diametrically Magnetized magnet, I'm ready to do the test: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX04X0DIA (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX04X0DIA) please pm me and I'll send you a US address.
COIL INFORMATION:
Coil DC resistance is 2 Ohms.
Coil has 41.56mH with magnet pole in attraction to core and 49.42mH with magnet positioned between poles.
Coil is wound Bifilar but connected in parallel.
I tested the Capacitance between open wires strands and it is 38.46pf with magnet in attraction to core and 38.51pf with magnet between poles.
Coil wire (with enamel) measures 0.8mm and the core is a square Ferrite rod measuring 12mm x 12mm x 90mm long.
I can wind more turns on the coil at a later date to confirm if it give a boost in gain.
This was the first load test and more will be done to find the coils most efficient output (most watts out with minimum effect to prime mover).
Please share your thoughts as to what is contributing to this effect.
Luc
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I believe there may be a way to show the delay between the build up of current in the inductor and the propagation of the magnetic field. I will look into it as soon as I get back home-which im hopeing is today. Hard to get things done when your on the road 5 to 6 days a week.
That's the "Slight of Hand" those tricksters use to keep eveyrone confused. Faraday induction and all the related laws never change and have zero relevancy as regards DLE. Phase lag in the core material is only thing that matters. Everything else stays the same. It's preposterous to imagine that anything that fantastic is taking place.
We can delay the time it takes for magetizem to travel between an ouput coil and a magnet rotor by lengthening the core. This has nothing what-so-ever to do wth the build up of current in the inductor or the propagation of the magnetic field. The only variable is the "Delay" caused by the phase lag controlled by the extended core material, and the advance or lag relative to rotor magnet TDC.
The core material delay can also be regulated by altering it's permeability. This includes an air core. All the other parameters remain unchanged.
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Synchro1 you can wonder about all manner of silly ideas. The problem is that any idea is only as good as the evidence that supports it.
@MarkE,
You maintain that "Magnet Wave" is a made up term. It takes time for magnetizem to travel from point A to point B through a core. How do you propose we describe this event?
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Luc:
You saw an increased power draw when the generator coil is loaded. Before you were insisting that there was no increased power draw. You should try to account for your past errors and try to square them away with your readers.
Input to Dremel on load is 60vdc @ 0.500ma = 30W
Input to Dremel off load is 60.3vdc @ 0.475ma = 28.64W
Power difference is 1.36W of extra power consumption by prime mover when coil is on load
Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W = 1.1W of gained power output without affecting prime mover.
I hate to say it again but you are leading yourself down a garden path. Also, you are making real measurements here, you should not be ignoring the resistance of the coil. The coil capacitance measurement is also meaningless and has no affect and should not be considered.
Here are some issues that have to be factored in: 1) You have no idea what the efficiency of the Dremel is. 2) You have no idea if the efficiency of the Dremel will change under different supply voltages, loads and RPM. 3) You are drawing a conclusion without having enough data to support the conclusion. 4) You are not correctly relating the waste heat with the "payload" power that goes into the generator.
Here is your real data:
UNDER LOAD:
Input: 30 watts electrical
Generator output: 2.46 watts
Motor output: 27.54 watts heat
Total output: 30 watts
Note: The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the generator output power from the input electrical power. That is how the power is split in your setup.
NO LOAD:
Input: 28.64 watts electrical
Motor output: 28.64 watts heat
The above is the real analysis of your data. That's all that you can conclude from your experiment with the caveat that the heat dissipation in the coil windings was not accounted for.
Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W = 1.1W of gained power output without affecting prime mover.
The above calculation is an invalid calculation. If you review what I wrote above this should become clear to you.
MileHigh
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Luc:
You saw an increased power draw when the generator coil is loaded. Before you were insisting that there was no increased power draw. You should try to account for your past errors and try to square them away with your readers.
I hate to say it again but you are leading yourself down a garden path. Also, you are making real measurements here, you should not be ignoring the resistance of the coil. The coil capacitance measurement is also meaningless and has no affect and should not be considered.
Here are some issues that have to be factored in: 1) You have no idea what the efficiency of the Dremel is. 2) You have no idea if the efficiency of the Dremel will change under different supply voltages, loads and RPM. 3) You are drawing a conclusion without having enough data to support the conclusion. 4) You are not correctly relating the waste heat with the "payload" power that goes into the generator.
Here is your real data:
UNDER LOAD:
Input: 30 watts electrical
Generator output: 2.46 watts
Motor output: 27.54 watts heat
Total output: 30 watts
Note: The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the input electrical power from the generator output power. That is how the power is split in your setup.
NO LOAD:
Input: 28.64 watts electrical
Motor output: 28.64 watts heat
The above is the real analysis of your data. That's all that you can conclude from your experiment with the caveat that the heat dissipation in the coil windings was not accounted for.
The above calculation is an invalid calculation. If review what I wrote above this should become clear to you.
MileHigh
The math you're applying here is backwards. The heat loss formula measures a negative value, not a positive one.
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Corrected the original posting with this new sentence:
Note: The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the generator output power from the input electrical power.
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Corrected the original posting with this new sentence:
Note: The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the generator output power from the input electrical power.
That only Works if the generator output is less then the input.
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Good work, Luc. What really sucks here is that there is still no ignore-user function in this Forum, which reminds me of why I kept away for several months. You wouldn't want JP Morgan flooding your screen would you?
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Luc:
You saw an increased power draw when the generator coil is loaded. Before you were insisting that there was no increased power draw. You should try to account for your past errors and try to square them away with your readers.
MileHigh
The test was using a 25 Ohm load. Show me the post where I wrote a 25 Ohm load will have no increased in power draw.
Also, I was testing this with half the RPM and power input then the first test but it's clear to me now that you are not here to help a researcher as you have once again taken the first opportunity to try to discredit me and that I don't know what I'm doing.
You will not be able to support your written statement above and I'm no longer going to bother replying to your posts.
Best to move along now
Regards
Luc
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Dude's a real Houdini!
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That only Works if the generator output is less then the input.
Can you show a case where the generator output is equal to or greater than the input?
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Good work, Luc. What really sucks here is that there is still no ignore-user function in this Forum, which reminds me of why I kept away for several months. You wouldn't want JP Morgan flooding your screen would you?
What really REALLY sucks here is that people don't do their own homework, and keep posting falsehoods because of it.
Select "Profile" from the menu just below the "OverUnity" banner head at top left.
Select "Account Settings", then under "Modify Profile" select "Buddies/Ignore List", then "Edit Ignore List" and enter in the alias of the poster whose posts you don't want to see.
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Thanks Tinsel, just found it. Rather hidden imho. Anyhow, got to add some nicks there...
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The test was using a 25 Ohm load. Show me the post where I wrote a 25 Ohm load will have no increased in power draw.
Also, I was testing this with half the RPM and power input then the first test but it's clear to me now that you are not here to help a researcher as you have once again taken the first opportunity to try to discredit me and that I don't know what I'm doing.
You will not be able to support your written statement above and I'm no longer going to bother replying to your posts.
Best to move along now
Regards
Luc
Yes I made a mistake there. You stated that there would be no increased power draw from the prime mover for a load that dissipated less power than the 25-ohm load. I think that you were referring to the one-ohm load test when you said that. I told you that there was no "magic" there and you were simply "wanting to believe" what the Kill-a-Watt meter was showing you even through it was an inappropriate measuring device for your setup. Not to mention the fact that you should have known beforehand that the Lenz drag was there.
So I may have been wrong about the value of the load resistor and the amount of power we are talking about, but the principle of what I stated remains true. You stated that you could use a generator coil to output power into a one-ohm load resistor with no affect on the prime mover and that statement is completely wrong.
And right now you are probably set up to see if there is a change in the power draw of the motor when you use a one-ohm resistor on the generator coil. I can't be sure that you will have the precision, but it sure as hell looks like you will. So, supposing you do indeed see an increased power draw by the motor when you compare no-load on the generator coil vs. a one-ohm load on the generator coil? Then what?
Notice you are just being nit-picky about one comment and you are ignoring the entire discussion about the experimental results.
What I said about your experimental results is 100% valid. There is no "1.1 watts of gained power." That conclusion is wrong. So what are you going to do about that issue?
MileHigh
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@Milehigh,
That 1.1 watts has to be converted to "Negative Microhenries" to get your heat loss formula to work, and what that results in is cooling.
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MH
its not always what you say
its how you say it
and to boot, instead of offering a quick fix to focus the data being generated by the DUT .
you throw it back on your "student" for another opportunity to embarrass.
such holes in your "help" do make one wonder what you are truly doing here or just how much you really have done on the bench ...
just a 100% valid observation...
and I'll leave you alone here too....
thx
Chet
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Chet:
Right. All of the experimenters have delicate fragile egos. Everything has to be oh so delicate. You have to rewrite your prose several times so that it sounds like a Hallmark greeting card. Yes, you have to invest three times the energy and three times the time every time you make a posting to correct or educate somebody but that's the way it is. Heaven forbid if you just state the facts in a neutral way.
You are wrong about my motivations and are just putting a negative spin on them.
Meanwhile, have you ever seen me maliciously and viscously attacked? How many times have you seen that happen? How often have you protested this with somebody that is clearly going over the line? Not too often, eh? Perhaps even never.
Luc was given the real analysis of his testing. Also, many times he has been corrected for mistakes by myself and others and I think that it is very rare that he acknowledges his mistakes and clarifies his position. There is no special halo over Luc or any other experimenter. Anybody that makes a mistake when they are in a public forum and sharing knowledge should ideally acknowledge their mistake and clarify where they stand. Right now Luc is trying to do some tests related to the whole DLE issue and he interpreted his data incorrectly. So what are you going to do? Pretend that his interpretation is not wrong and encourage him? Hire a writer from a greeting card company? Shoot me?
MileHigh
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MH
I don't really read the war threads you frequent ,or follow the back and forth Venom ,
I just happened to read a few of the threads today that you posted on ,one reply to Wings made my hair stand up [JLN Lenz Vid] and you treatment of Luc seems like your wishing more to embarrass and less to help.
why not help focus his test with some simple suggestions,perhaps a fixed loss to ambient protocol would help for comparison and acc't for all the power in and and heat ?
some simple suggestions to help ,and actually acquire useful data .
I'm hittin the sack
Chet
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Chet:
This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there. If you disagree feel free to make your points."
Why would that make your hair stand up?
Luc has just been given the straight goods from me and it's not to embarrass him. If he wants less "critical" comments the way for him to get there is to keep on learning and improving. That's up to him. When anybody arrives at the wrong conclusion from a test then one of their peers should correct them. If not you have complete stagnation where people are afraid to correct each other.
I don't really read the war threads you frequent ,or follow the back and forth Venom
Hey, I make it a point to try my best to not be abusive and use abusive terms. At the same time I am only human. And I do get viciously attacked and verbally abused from multiple angles on a consistent basis. You can't even compare Luc being corrected without the benefit of a Hallmark ghost writer and the ugly and vicious attacks against me. So perhaps you have your priorities skewed.
MileHigh
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyuFehBV_uA
::)
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The inducing magnet is attracted to the stator and locks at the location known to all as TDC. This is true of all presently accepted typologies, where the magnet is moved or coil is moved, and even in the situation now under discussion where an iron slug is moved between a stationary magnet and coil. This relation leads to the well documented effects and all too familiar wave forms. What is needed is the exact opposite of this. What we want is strong repulsion when the magnet structure is perfectly aligned with the stator pole. This simple change inverts the present situation,placing the point of maximum induced potential at present zero crossing (TDC proper). This means we will experience the greatest opposition to change in flux at the point of greatest flux density. An idea no one here or on any other form I frequent has considered.
This simple modification changes everything, because in this situation the inducing field is in phase (geometrically) with the field which will manifest in the coil, when the coil is shorted.
I am finding that we are do not have the proper system relations in the machines we build. We don't understand the forces we wish to command. Lenz isn't something we can delay, we all know this but keep saying it as if its what we are doing. With the proper geometric relations we induce three EMF, one prior to TDC one at TDC, and one after TDC. The induced at TDC is of much higher amplitude and magnitude than the induced entering and leaving. The amplitude of the wave is about rate of change, so, that should give one some insight on what relation is desired to get the highest possible induced potential for a given rpm. In what I am calling "properly designed systems", induced potentials have the appearance of spikes, the induced losses its characteristic sinusoidal nature.
Regards
The induced at TDC is zero. When the PM is at TDC to that of the coil, is when the sine wave is at the zero volt line-the magnetic field is neither increasing or decreasing in strength,and thus no voltage or current is produced. Power is produced as the magnet approaches TDC of the coil,and as it leaves-regardless of wether it is a north field or south field or both alternating.
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The induced at TDC is zero. When the PM is at TDC to that of the coil, is when the sine wave is at the zero volt line-the magnetic field is neither increasing or decreasing in strength,and thus no voltage or current is produced. Power is produced as the magnet approaches TDC of the coil,and as it leaves-regardless of wether it is a north field or south field or both alternating.
As can be clearly seen in my scopeshots in the clip above.
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@Milehigh,
"This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there. If you disagree feel free to make your points."
Why would that make your hair stand up"?
Because this is outright horseshit!
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The JLN video Milehigh says is nothing is everything! Once again; Magnetizem travels from the rotor magnet through the soft iron core to the shorted output coil. Then in complete compliance with Lenz, Faraday and with no departure from any and all of the related laws, the magnetizem induces an electrical current in the coil windings along with an opposing magnetic field that is "Reflected" back through the core to the rotor magnet.
The reflected magnetizem can either be in advance of TDC or 'DELAYED' and lagging. It's imposible for the reflected field to arrive exactly at TDC. The reflected field can only propel or slow the rotor. This timing is a result of the distance the shorted coil is positioned from the magnet rotor and nothing else. The "Delay" refers to the extra time it takes for magnetizem to travel through the elongated core. Everything else remains unchanged. That's all there is to DLE. Any attempt to include extraneous factors amounts to superstition!
"Delayed Lenz Effect" can be defind as "Magnetic phase lag in the core material". That's it, period!
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@Milehigh,
"This is what I posted to Wings, "I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there. If you disagree feel free to make your points."
Why would that make your hair stand up"?
Because this is outright horseshit!
Synchro1:
I am going to reproduce my entire posting about the JLN clip below. You tell all of us why it is outright horseshit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Luc:
I looked at the JLN clip and I am not impressed. You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity. The water pressure is the voltage. The water flow is the current. A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose. A water capacitor is just a big tank of water. A water coil is just a big coil of hose.
Please see the attached graphic of a simple water wheel. That's a perfect analogy to a simple pulse motor. The water flows out, hits the fins of the wheel, the wheel spins at a certain RPM and all the water ends up on the ground. Just like a pulse motor, there is no useful output from the water wheel. Both the pulse motor and the water wheel only have one output, heat.
Now, if you make slight adjustments to the water valve the speed of the wheel will change. If you make slight changes to the angles of the fins on the water wheel the speed of the wheel will change.
Compare that to JLN's experiment. He makes some adjustments to his setup, and the current consumption will undergo a slight change, or the RPM of the rotor will undergo a slight change.
In both cases, the changes will make slight changes to the power draw, it might go up a bit, it might go down a bit. Another way to state that is that the impedance of the water wheel will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw. Likewise, the impedance of the pulse motor will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.
So what's so remarkable about that? You know when people make a circuit to power a CFL or a LED lamp, sometimes they put a big current limiting resistor at the battery positive terminal. If you change the value of that current limiting resistor slightly, then the brightness of your light will change slightly. Would you say that changing the value of the current limiting resistor is an "advantage?" Well that essentially is all that you are seeing in that clip. He is changing the electrical impedance of the pulse motor. Sometimes the impedance goes up, sometimes it goes down. BFD.
In this context the shorting or unshorting of the coil is essentially irrelevant. It just changes the motor impedance and slightly affects how much waste heat is produced by the motor.
That's what's really happening in that clip. It's like turning the volume up or down on your stereo and claiming an "advantage."
Quoting JLN:
Harnessing the Delayed Lenz Effect with an experimental Test Bench
He is not harnessing anything. He is just changing the impedance of the motor.
Here an interesting experiment about the Delayed Lenz Effect which shows that the normal Lenz effect can be reversed with a special setup.
That's a retarded statement. Nothing is being reversed, he is just making impedance changes to the setup.
I have said several times before that I am not impressed with JLN, and that clip only serves to reinforce my impression of him. He is looking at that setup and does not seem to be aware that it has no significance.
MileHigh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go ahead Synchro1, we are all waiting to see what you have to say. - MileHigh
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The JLN video Milehigh says is nothing is everything! Once again; Magnetizem travels from the rotor magnet through the soft iron core to the shorted output coil. Then in complete compliance with Lenz, Faraday and with no departure from any and all of the related laws, the magnetizem induces an electrical current in the coil windings along with an opposing magnetic field that is "Reflected" back through the core to the rotor magnet.
The reflected magnetizem can either be in advance of TDC or 'DELAYED' and lagging. It's imposible for the reflected field to arrive exactly at TDC. The reflected field can only propel or slow the rotor. This timing is a result of the distance the shorted coil is positioned from the magnet rotor and nothing else. The "Delay" refers to the extra time it takes for magnetizem to travel through the elongated core. Everything else remains unchanged. That's all there is to DLE. Any attempt to include extraneous factors amounts to superstition!
Please go ahead and produce some nice detailed and annotated timing diagrams that show exactly what you are talking about. Post them here and we will have a look. Show all the waveforms relative to TDC, the propulsion, the whole nine yards. You feel passionately about this so let's see if you are going to advance your case with good quality timing diagrams. Where the "delayed Lenz effect" is on the timing diagrams has to be clearly indicated and explained so the average person will understand. Are you up to the challenge?
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Synchro1:
I am going to reproduce my entire posting about the JLN clip below. You tell all of us why it is outright horseshit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Luc:
I looked at the JLN clip and I am not impressed. You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity. The water pressure is the voltage. The water flow is the current. A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose. A water capacitor is just a big tank of water. A water coil is just a big coil of hose.
Please see the attached graphic of a simple water wheel. That's a perfect analogy to a simple pulse motor. The water flows out, hits the fins of the wheel, the wheel spins at a certain RPM and all the water ends up on the ground. Just like a pulse motor, there is no useful output from the water wheel. Both the pulse motor and the water wheel only have one output, heat.
Now, if you make slight adjustments to the water valve the speed of the wheel will change. If you make slight changes to the angles of the fins on the water wheel the speed of the wheel will change.
Compare that to JLN's experiment. He makes some adjustments to his setup, and the current consumption will undergo a slight change, or the RPM of the rotor will undergo a slight change.
In both cases, the changes will make slight changes to the power draw, it might go up a bit, it might go down a bit. Another way to state that is that the impedance of the water wheel will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw. Likewise, the impedance of the pulse motor will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.
So what's so remarkable about that? You know when people make a circuit to power a CFL or a LED lamp, sometimes they put a big current limiting resistor at the battery positive terminal. If you change the value of that current limiting resistor slightly, then the brightness of your light will change slightly. Would you say that changing the value of the current limiting resistor is an "advantage?" Well that essentially is all that you are seeing in that clip. He is changing the electrical impedance of the pulse motor. Sometimes the impedance goes up, sometimes it goes down. BFD.
In this context the shorting or unshorting of the coil is essentially irrelevant. It just changes the motor impedance and slightly affects how much waste heat is produced by the motor.
That's what's really happening in that clip. It's like turning the volume up or down on your stereo and claiming an "advantage."
Quoting JLN:
He is not harnessing anything. He is just changing the impedance of the motor.
That's a retarded statement. Nothing is being reversed, he is just making impedance changes to the setup.
I have said several times before that I am not impressed with JLN, and that clip only serves to reinforce my impression of him. He is looking at that setup and does not seem to be aware that it has no significance.
MileHigh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go ahead Synchro1, we are all waiting to see what you have to say. - MileHigh
This is complete horsehit! You're using a jet of wáter that you compare to voltage you mention current and coil impedence when DLE has nothing at all to do with electriity and is strictly a result of 'MAGNETIZEM'. Both you and MarkE are DUMBER THEN PIGSHIT
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I don't see why you try to convince those notoric naysayers. They only discourage you, suck out your motivation and enthusiasm like vampires, and they have exposed themselfes repeatedly of being pseudo-educted in the field of electromagnetism. I can only reccomend the Ignore function.
Sure, we make mistakes, we are learning by doing, but we're getting first hand experience, hard facts.
As for the Lorentz force as a result of Lenz' law, it is only a force, not a LAW. We can use forces to work FOR us, that's what we do. Any cathegoric "the world if flat, end of discussion" is not only dogmatic, but in fact preventing the progress that is required for the survival of mankind. So let's try!
Worst case is when the pickup coil has the same focused field like the magnet. This way the "echo" will hit the magnet 101... But the coil can spread the echo eg. in a nonfucused, radiant way, with good chances to never reach the magnet because of the broad distribution that causes low local field density. That is just one example.
Whether a delay of the Lorentz force is practical is not part of my knowledge, but should be subject of practical studies.
Peace.
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This is complete horsehit! You're using a jet of wáter that you compare to voltage you mention current and coil impedence when DLE has nothing at all to do with electriity and is strictly a result of 'MAGNETIZEM'. Both you and MarkE are DUMBER THEN PIGSHIT
Let me translate that:
You cannot argue a single point about my posting about the JLN clip.
There is no such thing as the "delayed Lenz effect." Only over the past few days has your new 'kick' been that the alleged DLE is a result of "magnetism only." This is just another in a long string of false pseudoscience musings from you.
So I would classify your belligerent reply with the nasty words just another total fail on your part. You are FOS and everybody knows it.
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Dieter:
I don't see why you try to convince those notoric naysayers. They only discourage you, suck out your motivation and enthusiasm like vampires, and they have exposed themselfes repeatedly of being pseudo-educted in the field of electromagnetism.
I have read a few postings from you. In the other thread you expressed surprise that the current flow continues in the same direction when a coil discharges.
In other words, when it comes to electronics, you are a total newbie. You are not in a position to comment on the technical capabilities of anybody. Educate yourself, and that will change.
You talk about putting people like myself and MarkE on ignore. Assuming that you want to learn about electronics, I am willing to bet you that the vast majority of readers of this forum would tell you that you would be a complete fool to do that.
I suggest you reassess your whole attitude relative to this forum. This is a place that is open to multiple opinions, and even opinions that disagree with each other. How about that, eh? A place were people can share ideas without being constrained by some "overseer."
MileHigh
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May I ask a question?
I read Lenz referred to here as a force and as drag.
Which is it? If it is drag, which science says it is, then how can you possibly delay it? It would be like saying you can delay friction.
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Hi everyone,
it is clear that this topic has been taken over and my efforts to simply share some experiments and results so we can study an effect many researcher don't yet understand is not possible.
This topic is now locked and I will resume the study at a topic where I have moderator privileges so anyone can have the ability to explore without being told we are doing it all wrong or we're leading our self's down a garden path.
Here is a link to the topic that I locked close to a year ago which I will resume in a day or so: http://overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/msg383646/#msg383646 (http://overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/msg383646/#msg383646)
BTW, please read my closing post of that topic which will once again confirm MileHigh has written an untruth "I don't acknowledge an error when it is pointed out to me"
Looking forward to continue the tests and a supportive :) discussion
Luc