Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!  (Read 71814 times)

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4786
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2014, 07:43:32 PM »
Just like the output coil position of 30mm in JLN'S rotor video, the laminated core has a position where the output windings should be located to cause a lead rather then a lag when the reverse field from the induced current in the output wraps is reflected back to the primary. A lead out positon from the "Echo Wave" output coil would reinforce the primary input and lower power consumption. A lag position would cause the draw to rise!

Transformer efficiency can be improved just like generator coils like Gotoluc proved with proper applicaton of the DLE.

I have a "Wall Socket Watt Meter" identical to Gotoluc's that I measured the accuracy of by comparing Lux Meter watt measurements from rated bulbs to, and it demonstrated a tenth of a watt accuracy! It's not a piece of crap.

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4786
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2014, 09:37:42 PM »
Anyone following my other thread on "Magnet Cores, Demagnetization and Lenz Delay" can understand how a variable laminated transformer core, resembling a radio tuner, would result in an overunity power plant.

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5242
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2014, 11:13:18 PM »
There's only magnetizem in the laminated core. The core would need output windings to transform the magnetic flux into electricity. You may as well ask how much current and voltage there is in a permanent magnet. There is none. Only the magnetizem from the energised coil is transfered to the laminated core.

DLE is caused by a "Magnetic Phase Lag" in a core material and has nothing to do with current or voltage!
That is not true. An electric current and voltage exist in the core as well-->the core becomes 1 half of a capacitor,and the polarity is determond by the direction of current flow in the inductor.

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2014, 11:31:27 PM »
That is not true. An electric current and voltage exist in the core as well-->the core becomes 1 half of a capacitor,and the polarity is determond by the direction of current flow in the inductor.

There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux.  That's what causes eddy currents.  However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.

I don't get what you mean by the capacitor though.  Do you mean a literal capacitor, or are you using the term "capacitor" as a model for the energy in the transformer core?

What's going on inside a working transformer core while AC power is flowing through it is an interesting subject open to debate.  It's somewhat hard to visualize because in a sense "nothing" is going on.  People smarter than me might have a definitive answer on that one.

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2014, 11:50:18 PM »
Quote
There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux.  That's what causes eddy currents.  However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.

I'm going to take another stab at this because I am not sure of myself.  It gets complicated because you have an electric field that travels in a closed loop.  Electric fields are not "supposed" to travel in closed loops, they are supposed to go from point A to point B.  When you go around the closed loop you are back at the same voltage.  So therein lies the complicated part, the "paradox" if you will.  When you travel along an electric field you are always supposed to measure a voltage between point A and point B.

So my correction is this:  When you have eddy currents, it's due to the presence of an electric field, but you can's actually measure a voltage between two points along the circle.  It's because the electric field and the CEMF field exist at the same time and in the same place everywhere along the circle.  So you can see the effects of the electric field, the eddy currents, but you can't actually measure a voltage between to points on the circle.  Nor can you measure an electric field along the circle.

It's very similar to the enigma of the issue of measuring the electric flux, or B field, inside the core of a working transformer.

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5242
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2014, 12:03:22 AM »
There is an electric field in the core when there is changing magnetic flux at right angles to the direction of the flux.  That's what causes eddy currents.  However, you can't actually measure the voltage due to the electric field because of the CEMF generated by the eddy currents.

I don't get what you mean by the capacitor though.  Do you mean a literal capacitor, or are you using the term "capacitor" as a model for the energy in the transformer core?

What's going on inside a working transformer core while AC power is flowing through it is an interesting subject open to debate.  It's somewhat hard to visualize because in a sense "nothing" is going on.  People smarter than me might have a definitive answer on that one.
The capacitor consist of one plate being the core,and the other plate being the copper winding's. the voltage and current between the two is very measurable and quite cappable of running an LED. If you have two pulsed inductors with laminated cores that are 180* out of phase with each other,you can draw AC power from the two isolated cores alone.

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2014, 12:22:06 AM »
There are all sorts of transformer models showing parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances, etc.  It depends on how deep and detailed you want to get.  Typically the deeper you go in the modeling the higher the frequencies are that you are considering.  In almost all cases at the normal operating frequency for a typical transformer you can ignore the parasitic components.

The important thing to keep in mind is when the parasitic components should be part of the discussion and when they can be omitted from the discussion.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2014, 02:18:06 AM »
I'm going to take another stab at this because I am not sure of myself.  It gets complicated because you have an electric field that travels in a closed loop.  Electric fields are not "supposed" to travel in closed loops, they are supposed to go from point A to point B.  When you go around the closed loop you are back at the same voltage.  So therein lies the complicated part, the "paradox" if you will.  When you travel along an electric field you are always supposed to measure a voltage between point A and point B.

So my correction is this:  When you have eddy currents, it's due to the presence of an electric field, but you can's actually measure a voltage between two points along the circle.  It's because the electric field and the CEMF field exist at the same time and in the same place everywhere along the circle.  So you can see the effects of the electric field, the eddy currents, but you can't actually measure a voltage between to points on the circle.  Nor can you measure an electric field along the circle.

It's very similar to the enigma of the issue of measuring the electric flux, or B field, inside the core of a working transformer.
Non-zero impedance means that a voltage does develop across the conductor.  If you anchor a probe at some point on the surface and then move the other probe in the direction of the eddy current, you will observe a voltage that increases in magnitude to the half way point and then comes back down to zero. 

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4786
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2014, 02:33:09 AM »
Non-zero impedance means that a voltage does develop across the conductor.  If you anchor a probe at some point on the surface and then move the other probe in the direction of the eddy current, you will observe a voltage that increases in magnitude to the half way point and then comes back down to zero.


Insulated silicon steel laminations like JLN used cut the eddy currents down to practically zero. There's a difference between an "Ideal" transformer and a practical one. Everything carries some level of electrical charge. This factor is too trivial to consider as part of an overall analysis of the fundamental operating principles of Transformers. Only "magnetic flux" exists in the core of the "ideal" version. Like the Op Amp law that no current passes through the inputs.

Here's another fine video from Gotoluc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUmVSf878aY

Luc clearly shows no rise in input with the addition of a load.

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3096
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2014, 04:02:29 AM »
Thanks Synchro for posting that video!... I forgot about it as it was done back in 2011.

I made that video in my sailboat  ;D lol

This is an example of one of Thane Heins ReGen-X coils he lent me so I can test a solid state version using my H-Bridge.

The input to H-Bridge was 62.5vdc @ 0.00829 Amps = 500mW
H-Bridge Frequency was 480Hz
I would say the 79 Ohm DC resistance of Shaded Pole motor coil (primary) was consuming most of that 500mW input
we can see the secondary (regen-x) coil output has 4.11vrms across the 150 Ohm load resistor = 112mW which had no effect on the input power when place under load.

Good example

Luc
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:39:08 AM by gotoluc »

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2014, 04:11:46 AM »

Insulated silicon steel laminations like JLN used cut the eddy currents down to practically zero.
No, insulated laminations cut losses at mains frequencies usually to a few percent.
Quote
There's a difference between an "Ideal" transformer and a practical one. Everything carries some level of electrical charge. This factor is too trivial to consider as part of an overall analysis of the fundamental operating principles of Transformers. Only "magnetic flux" exists in the core of the "ideal" version. Like the Op Amp law that no current passes through the inputs.
If you are arguing for an ideal transformer then such a device exhibits no magnetic viscosity either.
Quote

Here's another fine video from Gotoluc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUmVSf878aY

Luc clearly shows no rise in input with the addition of a load.

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4786
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2014, 06:09:11 AM »
No, insulated laminations cut losses at mains frequencies usually to a few percent.If you are arguing for an ideal transformer then such a device exhibits no magnetic viscosity either.

magnetic viscosity
 
(electromagnetism)

"The existence of a time delay between a change in the magnetic field applied to a ferromagnetic material and the resulting change in magnetic induction which is too great to be explained by the existence of eddy currents".

The ideal transformer just eliminates the eddy losses, the time delay remains.

Offline wings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 750
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2014, 09:33:10 AM »
magnetic viscosity
 
(electromagnetism)

"The existence of a time delay between a change in the magnetic field applied to a ferromagnetic material and the resulting change in magnetic induction which is too great to be explained by the existence of eddy currents".

The ideal transformer just eliminates the eddy losses, the time delay remains.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/indexen.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/dlenz/DLE19en.htm


Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Delayed Lenz or not?... post your explaination!
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2014, 01:35:34 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA

I have already discussed that clip and there is nothing there.  If you disagree feel free to make your points.