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Author Topic: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%  (Read 296528 times)

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #360 on: July 04, 2014, 05:08:46 AM »
There's this guy... Thejohndevice.com


Here's part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-KVo4lxHgE
Here's his channel  https://www.youtube.com/user/davidwjohn/videos


(yes, I'm sure pages ago this was all mentioned but I just got here)


I can definitely see that as a viable gravity engine...  but it's lots of torque and not a lot of horsepower... kind of like a huge flywheel... or a static resonant tank... sure you can get get KW cycling, but if you try and pull from it, you kill the whole thing and have to start it spinning again....


but with a small continuous input, and NOT taking the whole energy... like only take a portion of the energy ... should be able to run some numbers.... I'd try and build it in space engineers but they don't have pivoting joints, only linear... and there's lots of CV or universal joints that can be used...


And sure it's low speed, but so are wind generators...
[http://www.windynation.com/jzv/p/257/Rover+Series+Permanent+Magnet+Alternator] $239.98  Rover Series Permanent Magnet Alternator  11 pounds[/url]  not a very big alternator....  have to do more research for $/W efficiency...


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Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #361 on: July 04, 2014, 06:14:11 AM »
So I've been considering this.  The only way something can fall is if it is higher than it started....
from equilibrium/stop condition, the first motion at the top actually raises the weight slightly.
gravity acts not on an entire body... but is really about the center of mass....




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiyMuHuCFo4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCw5JXD18y4


*thinks* ... need some better sketches and models...
-----
Edit:
I'll have to dig way back into memory and pull out some calculus I guess...
as the top moves (rotates is the simpler model), X degrees, then the center of mass is lifted, and then falls at an angle and creates a rotation as it falls back to its original height.   This path is always longer than the height it was raised, so it must take a longer time, therefore it's accelerated by gravity for a longer amount of time than the time which it took to raise the weight in the first place.


if the angle at the top of the shaft is very slight, then less work is applied to raise the weight, though it then has a much shorter distance to fall... but the angle of incline should resemble something like a cylinder rolling down a hill accelerated by gravity.  So it's forward motion will be sin(slope) * m * g...   But; that would only work if slope < 90 degrees... if it's vertical m has no bearing.... so then is it really a cylinder on a slope?  (feather and hammer drop on moon).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCC-68LyZM  (okay force is not acceleration)  so a heavier object gets more force applied


(distraction; not applicable: hmm a long chain falling out of a beaker goes up first... like way up over the beaker 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dQJBBklpQQ
http://www.nature.com/news/physicists-explain-gravity-defying-chain-trick-1.14523
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTC3bKea2Yo (longer chains from higher heights)
)


Hmm... well due to inertia, the mass falling vertically must have the same force being applied if it's non vertical, and something like the cos(angle) vertically and sin(angle) around axis or rotation... but then to get to the bottom it must apply that force for a longer time than it took to raise the object in the first place, resulting in a net acceleration of the object greater than the initial impulse....


search for "gravity acceleration tilted axis -accelerometer -digital -sensor" didn't reveal any useful math... so maybe again it's a case I don't know what physicists would call it?


or 'acceleration deflection gravity around tilted axis -accelerometer -sensor'



« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 11:18:27 AM by d3x0r »

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #362 on: July 04, 2014, 05:36:35 PM »
Hmm; I didn't notice the first time that the drive on original Skinner was linear.
I guess as the eccentricity of the drive ellipse flattens, you require more work to raise the weight to a higher level, but you get a longer cycle where the weight's falling is... going to be ahead of the drive.  that may be an interesting path to a solution of acceleration.

Picture; Red is highest force applied to lift weight, pink is lower force, but still requires power, light blue is 0 to slight gain in drive, dark blue is positive feedback on the drive, where the forward acceleration will outrun the drive.

Looks like a sum of equal parts to me... or a continuous loss... Well it will be a lot of light pink and light blue segements so it will balance to zero... the first slight impulse will require power, but the weight will outrun the drive quickly being slightly blue, which in turn will slow, and the drive will catch up slightly and apply more force....


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #362 on: July 04, 2014, 05:36:35 PM »
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Offline turbogt16v

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #363 on: July 04, 2014, 09:10:37 PM »
i just wanted to write something like that

the easy way to emagine john device is to emagine a huge weight that is rotating on a nail
starting easy,and picking up speed it would seem like the output is huge .like he claims,
but in reality he never counected output becouse it would only stop the device.

Offline havuhung

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #364 on: July 05, 2014, 07:47:14 AM »
Hi All,
The conduct energy efficiency measurement, test on a small unit of the machine Skinner did not reach the expected results may be due to:
- The weight of the mass (rotating) is not large enough.
- The velocity of the mass (rotating) the kinetic energy generated is not high.
- Mechanical friction of the rotating parts is too much.
- Convert mechanical energy into electrical energy to achieve low performance. . .     :(



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #364 on: July 05, 2014, 07:47:14 AM »
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Offline noonespecial

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #365 on: July 05, 2014, 01:15:07 PM »
Is there any information from Mr. Skinner that he used an elliptical path for either the upper drive system or the lower drive system?

In the video I only hear the announcer saying that the weights go round and round.

In a newspaper article about him and his device, he describes the weights as rotating 'in a circular motion'. I think some have mistakenly re-interpreted his comment regarding 'eccentrics' to mean elliptical. But eccentric simply means off-center. The circular rotation of the upper drive system is mirrored in the lower circular rotation of the unbalanced weights.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #366 on: July 05, 2014, 03:15:01 PM »
I dunno about elliptical... the top is actually driven by flat levers that go back and forth, but then below their pivot is another pivot 90 degrees to that; looks like a offset conventional universal joint kinda...  (well no, a universal joint is a + so both joints at one level) I guess, since the bottom pivot is offset from the top, the result will be a ellipse with a wider throw from the top pivot.. but it doesn't HAVE to be, the throw side to side might be longer itself resulting in a circle...


was trying to track down how power was gotten... guess the bottom is sorta a knuckle joint that goes to gears that go to a common gear that drives a 90 degree offset shaft to that...


the path of the top of the long axis looks circular to me....

the oppositing sides are 180 degrees separated; so I guess each is 90 degree separation

image composite from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxIRaJlTD4Y 
(didn't have the bottom and top in one shot)

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #366 on: July 05, 2014, 03:15:01 PM »
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Offline noonespecial

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #367 on: July 05, 2014, 03:34:29 PM »
Thanks,,

no ellipse then,, not to say that an ellipse could not be used,, just that it does not look like Mr. Skinner used one.


Agreed. Also interesting is the fact that he states that the weights don't actually fall (but are simply rotated to a new COG by the angle change).

If they don't fall, they don't rise. Based on this as well, there would be no reason to depart from a straight-forward simple rotary motion. Elliptical would seem to be an unnecessary complication.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #368 on: July 05, 2014, 03:37:00 PM »

Agreed. Also interesting is the fact that he states that the weights don't actually fall (but are simply rotated to a new COG by the angle change).

If they don't fall, they don't rise. Based on this as well, there would be no reason to depart from a straight-forward simple rotary motion. Elliptical would seem to be an unnecessary complication.
they fall... if it's on a tilted axis, moving the axis raises the COG and allows it to fall again...

it may be (and probably is) inperceptable... as soon as you move the top, they start to move, so it doesn't raise very much....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #368 on: July 05, 2014, 03:37:00 PM »
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Offline noonespecial

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #369 on: July 05, 2014, 03:46:22 PM »
If you consider your first diagram, and even though B is not fixed to A, rotating A causes B to rotate in a horizontal circle. There could be some initial raising of the lower at startup, but once it is rotating, centripetal force will keep it rotating in a flat horizontal circle.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #370 on: July 05, 2014, 04:00:22 PM »
If you consider your first diagram, and even though B is not fixed to A, rotating A causes B to rotate in a horizontal circle. There could be some initial raising of the lower at startup, but once it is rotating, centripetal force will keep it rotating in a flat horizontal circle.
In current considerations, B is attached to A... even though in skinner B is much shorter and A longer and the mass entirely differently shaped (and disregarding the top  floating mass)


centripetal force is an effect not a cause.  it's a result of a motion not a cause... The cause is the attempt to come back down...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4p1o1aQgkM  "moving the hill..."

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #370 on: July 05, 2014, 04:00:22 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #371 on: July 05, 2014, 05:46:50 PM »
I dunno about elliptical... the top is actually driven by flat levers that go back and forth,


 Where is the evidence to back up this claim?

 
In Luc's video, link on page 6, post #84 I can clearly see the rotary motion of the driving arm. I see no side to side motion of the pivot point ether.

 
Confirmation that the top of the rod is circular motion is the obsevation, as shown in my video...

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1dvSINRylk

 
that the angle of view in two views 90 degrees to each other is the same. If the rod was moving in a flat plane then the rod would move back and forth in one view and towards and away in a view 90 degrees to the first. I show this clearly on page 14, post #205 where the angle is nearly identical in the two views that are at 90 degrees to each other. The only logical explanation is the the top of the rod is moving in a circle.

 
William shows us how the device works at the point where he stops the lower weight and advances the upper weight, When he does this the lower weight rises. When he releases the upper weight the lower weigh falls and pulls the upper weight back into its rest position. In other words, when the machine is in operation loading the lower weight lifts, retards its position in relation to the upper weight and the weight is now wanting to fall to its lower position, thus outputting drive to the load.
Ron


Offline i_ron

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #372 on: July 05, 2014, 08:14:41 PM »





Here is a little sketch showing how the interaction of the two weights sets the lower rod inclination angle.


For example with no upper weight the lower weight would hold the drive plate out at a fixed position
in the circle at all times. However, with two weights, the automatic interaction sets the inclination angle
of the drive rod in direct proportion to the load, as it rotates in a circle.


Only at speed will centrifugal force cause this interaction, as at rest the natural inclination would be for the upper weight to collapse inward. So it is a balancing act to get the upper weight just right so that the resulting centrifugal force pulls the lower rod around. In Skinners build we see that the upper weight is a hollow piece of pipe to which can then be added varying amounts of lead shot or some other substance to achieve this goal.


The first sketch is thus with an inclination angle of zero.


EDIT: sorry I keep adding to this post, here is the latest...


I need to clarify "inclination angle", with the lower weight directly towards you. the rod is inclined 5.5 degrees towards you... but this is not what I was referring too. With the weigh held steady move the upper end of the rod either to the left or to the right in its circular path and the weight will rise, this is the inclination angle that I am referring too, Got it? so any angle that causes the weight to rise is the inclination angle.


So the second sketch is incorrect in that, that is the position of the upper end of the lower rod, the lower weight will be "some where else"


Ron
 

Offline turbogt16v

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #373 on: July 05, 2014, 08:19:39 PM »
the weights are in circle orbit but the driving top rod has best results driven in elipse,
but even in elipse you got the problem of output power ,
when you gain output the input gains  by far,
the problem is in setting the weights wright

Offline d3x0r

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Re: 1939 Gravity Power - multiply power by 1200%
« Reply #374 on: July 05, 2014, 08:34:12 PM »

 Where is the evidence to back up this claim?

Ron
Ya I agree, but was only this morning that I noticed the secondary pivot point.
I see... the rod extends all the way from the rotating square plate to a circular path gear at the top even... so it's circular entirely.

 

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