Author Topic: New guy with SMOT questions (Read 19555 times)

sknoxmn · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2013, 03:26:02 PM »

I enjoy listening to the critics. Sometimes they have pretty sound logic for the specific area that they are talking about. Other times, they know almost enough to be dangerous. (I happen to know even less than that myself)

One guy had posted something about so many people trying this over so many years that it just can't be done. Reminds me of the "partner" to the guy that started the US patent office. When he said, why would we do that? Everything that can be invented already has been invented.

I think that sometimes other people pointing out the things that have failed just saves the rest of us "tinkerers" a lot of time. Or it causes us to see the problems and tear it apart bit by bit until we solve each piece then put it all back together.

What we have seen is ramps that drop a steel ball, we have seen them angled, we have seen them flat. With "deflectors" to move the ball away (roll away) we have even seen "The Scoop" whish I happen to like a lot personally. What we haven't really seen is anyone getting the ball to "load".

Some work on the magnet array and adjust the ramp to suit, others build a ramp then adjust the magnets to achieve that angle. Some drop the ball and roll it away, some like to make circles.

I think that this maybe needs to be looked at differently in order to solve it. and Im certain at some point at least one other person has (if not hungreds of them) So I am working on just making the ball do its thing, not trying to disprove any universal laws or power my house. As much as I hate the term SMOT since we can't get higher than 1. I would like to just build the Simple Magnetic Toy using the energy it already has from the magnets.

I think I'll call it SMUT! Simple Magnetic Unity Toy. I like that. I'm going with it.

-S

TinselKoala · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2013, 06:56:27 PM »

And what you'll wind up with is a bunch of SNOT.
(Simple non-overunity toys.)

happyfunball · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2013, 11:25:41 PM »

Quote from: sknoxmn on January 02, 2013, 03:26:02 PM

What we have seen is ramps that drop a steel ball, we have seen them angled, we have seen them flat. With "deflectors" to move the ball away (roll away) we have even seen "The Scoop" whish I happen to like a lot personally. What we haven't really seen is anyone getting the ball to "load".

The only 'loading' you can get is the initial input of energy involved with placing the ball in position. That energy will be conserved. Neither magnets or shielded magnets or gravity or springs contribute any recoverable work to the system.

sknoxmn · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2013, 03:51:40 AM »

Yeah, by building the device I guess the energy spent isn't wasted but conserved with regard to unity because the tools and wood didn't come together themselves after a supernova.

Generators aren't as efficient as the claim either because some spent energy to turn the switch that energy wasn't considered when it was rated I'd bet.

And I'm pleased that there won't be any recoverable energy because that's not the goal

happyfunball · « **Reply #19 on:** January 03, 2013, 07:24:30 AM »

Quote from: sknoxmn on January 03, 2013, 03:51:40 AM

Yeah, by building the device I guess the energy spent isn't wasted but conserved with regard to unity because the tools and wood didn't come together themselves after a supernova.

Generators aren't as efficient as the claim either because some spent energy to turn the switch that energy wasn't considered when it was rated I'd bet.

And I'm pleased that there won't be any recoverable energy because that's not the goal

Perhaps the word should be 'usable' energy. Lifting the ball and placing it at the beginning of the SMOT is the only loading you're going to get. Nothing you can do will crate a continuously running SMOT device. If you spring load the ball and fire it up a curved ramp in a way that it falls onto it's original starting point, I suppose you could claim you 'looped' it. But we know it's really no different than picking it up and dropping it.

hoptoad · « **Reply #20 on:** January 03, 2013, 07:48:14 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 02, 2013, 06:56:27 PM

And what you'll wind up with is a bunch of SNOT.
(Simple non-overunity toys.)

Sniff .... Snuffle ....

..... excuse my running nose .....

happyfunball · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2013, 08:39:55 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 02, 2013, 06:56:27 PM

And what you'll wind up with is a bunch of SNOT.
(Simple non-overunity toys.)

lol. 'SNOTworks too

Poit · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2013, 11:33:00 AM »

I disagree with most people here. a perpetual motion smot is possible, just very impractical. It is proven that you can have a length of track that can provide energy to a coil as it passes, and that it can be going up (even 90degrees) whilst doing that. So I propose a smot track a mile long thats on an incline of 2degrees. along the track are pick up coils. when the ball finally reaches the end of the mile long track the pick up coils will have stored up enough energy to push the smot ball magnet out of the gate and gravity can roll it back to the starting position - to repeat - hence perpetual motion.

My definition of perpetual motion isn't as literal as some would argue, by the true definition of the word "perpetual" meaning forever, nothing in the universe is "for ever", so there for it is clearly not intended as forever, just a damn long time.

sknoxmn · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2013, 05:46:15 PM »

A damn long time is a very fitting definition in my book as well. Previously I was saying there needs to be a consensus about at least a "Working term" for what constitutes perpetual. Is it a week, a life time, or 100 years....

Hell one guy, with a link from wiki was saying that no one has ever closed the loop or made a SMOT to complete not even 1 complete cycle. This is the part that got me going. I don't yet understand why it has not been done at least to that level. Let alone have the ability to reload itself and run the course again.

I think yes, eventually the N45 4inch x 1/2 x 1/2 that I have for this project will eventually lose their power. I dont think that will happen in my lifetime, but yes, it will happen at some time.

And initially, I was asking about the examples that haven't worked. So that people arent recreating things none to not work. Like the circular track on level field that no one can get the ball to reload once it does come back around.

The original ramp with the super strong magnet that pulls the ball up the ramp to fall through the hole doesn't work....But these are really the only few versions that I personally have found any information on. I have seen the spinning disks, I have seen the levitation of CD's I have seen guys with fishing line pulling the things around....

So again, my goal is not to extract some kind of surplus energy. I don't yet believe that can be done. But I think with the engery that is already "built in" to the magnets, a completed cycle can be made to work for at least 1 complete cycle if not more.

I'll get back to my design build when I get home. I'll keep posting.

-S

happyfunball · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2013, 06:24:12 PM »

I suppose Finsrud's perpetual Motion Mobile is a working SMOT. That thing always slips my mind. Anyone ever figure out what the story is with that doohickey?

sknoxmn · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2013, 07:14:24 PM »

Nope, not yet. Looks cool though. Very pretty. I'm still working out the build portion of my own design. I have the design part figured out. But I'm working out how to best bend rails to match each other. I'll probably end up with screws in a board and using it as a jig of some kind.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2013, 09:50:07 PM »

Finsrud's device is powered by the big spring in the middle. A slight compression of this large spring, barely noticeable by eye, will run the machine for a week and can be reset very easily and quickly during the weekly "dusting". Most of the mechanism functions as a combination pendulum/flywheel/escapement to store and release the spring's energy to keep the ball moving around the track. Think "cuckoo clock" running on lifted weight and you won't be too far wrong.
It is not a SMOT.

Groundloop · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2013, 10:42:35 PM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 09:50:07 PM

Finsrud's device is powered by the big spring in the middle. A slight compression of this large spring, barely noticeable by eye, will run the machine for a week and can be reset very easily and quickly during the weekly "dusting". Most of the mechanism functions as a combination pendulum/flywheel/escapement to store and release the spring's energy to keep the ball moving around the track. Think "cuckoo clock" running on lifted weight and you won't be too far wrong.
It is not a SMOT.

TK,

If you have studied the Finsrud device, you will see that the little spring at the top is only allowing the track
to be slightly tilted so that the steel ball can move. The Finsrud device is powered by a 40Kg weight inside the
support structure. This 40Kg weight has magnets glued on. And there are many magnets under the weight that,
together forms a chaos pendulum. The three smaller pendulums are used as a track speed controllers. The Finsrud
device is not a wind up clock. Mr. Finsrud has published some drawings of his device. You can find them here:
http://www.galleri-finsrud.no/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=177&Itemid=70

GL.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2013, 11:30:50 PM »

Quote from: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 10:42:35 PM

TK,

If you have studied the Finsrud device, you will see that the little spring at the top is only allowing the track
to be slightly tilted so that the steel ball can move. The Finsrud device is powered by a 40Kg weight inside the
support structure. This 40Kg weight has magnets glued on. And there are many magnets under the weight that,
together forms a chaos pendulum. The three smaller pendulums are used as a track speed controllers. The Finsrud
device is not a wind up clock. Mr. Finsrud has published some drawings of his device. You can find them here:
http://www.galleri-finsrud.no/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=177&Itemid=70

GL.

In pmd_05 you can see the spring I'm talking about. It is not a "little spring". I did not mean to imply that it is a "wind up clock" only that it is an escapement mechanism with energy storage in the pendulums. Powered by the weight, OK, it still needs to be reset periodically.
Thanks for posting the drawings.

Groundloop · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2013, 11:53:59 PM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 11:30:50 PM

In pmd_05 you can see the spring I'm talking about. It is not a "little spring". I did not mean to imply that it is a "wind up clock" only that it is an escapement mechanism with energy storage in the pendulums. Powered by the weight, OK, it still needs to be reset periodically.
Thanks for posting the drawings.

TK,

>>Powered by the weight, OK, it still needs to be reset periodically

Not only the 40Kg weight, also by the fact that this 40Kg weight is a chaos pendulum because of the magnets
glued to the underside of the weight and on to the weight itself. If it was only the weight then the ball will stop in a short
time. But because of the chaos pendulum then the swing of the weight is prolonged a very long time. You only need
a very little power to move the track so that the steel ball will roll. Also the three side pendulums keep the ball speed
down so that you do not "use up" the stored momentum in the 40Kg pendulum too fast. And here is the secret to
this device AS I SEE IT (I may be wrong). The operator moves the tree outher pendulums by hand to start the device.
This will also store energy into the 40Kg large pendulum in the base of the device because the track is connected
to the large pendulum with a gear up mechanism. The release of the operator hand input is then "used up" in a very
long time because of the gear down from the large pendulum to the track, and also to the fact that a chaos pendulum
with magnets on, will prolong the swing of this pendulum. The three outer pendulums is also used to slow down the
track so that the "operator input" can be "dished" out on a longer time frame. It is my belief that this device is run
by "Mister hand". But is is a beautiful art work.

GL.

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Author Topic: New guy with SMOT questions (Read 19555 times)

sknoxmn

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