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Author Topic: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics  (Read 36006 times)

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« on: February 24, 2009, 10:10:42 AM »
Hi Folks,

A proof by design that the Second Law should be scrapped.

A symmetrical system of electodes at the same temperature and same work function that create torque.

So simple and undeniable.

Will shortly post comments from professors.

The legendary Professor XY Fu says it is correct and will work.

The RTG is not dead but the CBTM does not require special ´nano tips. AG-O-Cs will do or LaB6 for higher temp operation.

Look forward to making a big splash with this.

The World is about to change its view.

Philip H

Enjoy

Curled Ballistic Thermionic Generator
Philip Julian Hardcastle
5th February 2009

Provisional Patent Application

Title of Invention: Curled Ballistic Thermionic Generator

Description: Two electrodes face each other. They may be flat or concentric to each other, as would be the case of a ring within a ring where the first electrode is the outer surface of the smaller diameter ring and the second electrode would be the inner diameter of the larger diameter ring.

The electrode surfaces are treated to provide a suitable thermionic work function for the desired operating temperature. It is envisaged that thermionic work function would be 1.5ev or less such that an operating temperature of less than 1000C would be realised for the device to be described. Whilst both plates may be heated it is envisaged that in operation only one electrode will be heated by an external source and that the other electrode will be heated by a combination of radiative transfer and of energy transfer by electron collisions.

Whilst the phenomena to be described would be applicable to parallel flat plates it is described for the concentric ring model as this configuration lends itself to drive a shaft which in turn is envisaged to provide motive power or to be coupled to a dynamo. Either the inner or outer electrode may be attached to a drive shaft, or both.

The said concentric facing ring electrodes are intersected axially by a magnetic field. When the rings are heated thermionic emission occur as a continuous exchange between the rings. As there is no electrical return path, the rings will find a steady rate of exchange of electrons wherein thermionically emitted electrons from the first ring will collide and be absorbed by the second ring, and visa versa. In the absence of a magnetic field the average collision would be perpendicular to the surface and so there would be no induced torque on the rings, either inner or outer.

As said there is magnetic field applied to the device and axially aligned to the said ring electrodes, thus the thermionic electrons crossing the magnetic field will undergo deflection, or bending, due to their velocity component at right angles to the magnetic field. Consequently their average impact to the electrode will have an angle biased away from vertical and in favour of one direction. These impacts are at subatomic levels and are elastic, thus they cause a mechanical force upon the bulk electrode and so, if there is an average bias of direction, there must be an average direction of induced torque. For a given magnetic field the inner ring would experience a clockwise torque whilst the outer ring would experience a counter clockwise torque. If the magnetic field direction were reversed then so too would the direction of the induced torque however in all cases the inner ring and outer ring electrodes would have opposite directions for induced torque.

The drawing figure 1 is a representation of the configuration and shows by dotted arrows the two way exchange of thermionic electrons between the ring electrodes. The solid arrows show the direction of the induced torque. The magnetic field is not shown but can be imagined to be perpendicular to this page.













In figure 2, a side elevation cut away view, it is shown that the inner ring has been coupled to a dynamo whilst the outer ring has been locked to prevent rotation. The supply of heat to the rings is not shown. No heat exhaust is required for the device.


















For the device to convert heat into a directly useable mechanical form it is operated in ultra high vacuum, this ensures that the thermionic electrons emitted by one electrode can cross to the other electrodes without collision with unwanted gas molecules.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« on: February 24, 2009, 10:10:42 AM »

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 01:46:31 PM »
An idea to put multiple sets of electrodes.

As there is not electrical circuit then as many sets of electrodes as is practicable can be built.

Here is a cross section side view of a device with 5 elecrode pairs.

I would imagine perhaps 50 might be reasonable.

So saying then if each set is a square meter of area then a multielectrode device could be 50 square meters of electrodes.

In such a case the output power would be increased 50x, perhaps as a replacement to an automobile engine.

Final torque estimates are in progress.

They may be only a few hundred Joules per layer in early prototypes but if electrode exchange currents can rise to a thousand amps then far higher values can be envisaged.

Presently an attempt is being made to locate all the necessary expertise to construct a watch sized unit operating at room temperature that can claim the energy prize.

Anyone having knowledge of coating electrodes with Ag-O-Cs should post here.

Best

Phil H

Offline retroworm

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2009, 12:05:42 AM »
Looks very nice. I haven't fully read the other thread of yours, but this one seems much much easier to pull off in practice.
But I don't think it's a direct 2nd law violation, at least in terms of entropy. It might go slightly against the theoretical efficiencies for heat-to-work, but at best I'd consider it an extremely efficient heat engine. I would expect it to cool down whenever an electron is cast and re-absorbed partly as kinetic energy of the system, needing constant heating of the electrodes.

Regardless, it's very interesting concept and I hope you succeed building a working prototype. Looking forward to it.

Offline retroworm

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 01:26:40 PM »
Hmm, looks like I was wrong. It does go against entropy. Apparently Ag-O-Cs casts electrons even in room temperature, which means such a device could potentially draw power from the ambient. Of course the effect is the same in higher temperatures too; the ambient level is just higher. Somehow that didn't occur to me previously.

I did some searching and found this paper
http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0311104
It's the same core principle, but instead of motion, they use the electrons to build a charge difference.
The paper mentions that casting electrons does indeed cool the surface, which allows more heat from surroundings to be drawn in. So it is technically a heat engine, however unconventional one :).

I still have bit mixed feelings about the RTG device (after skimming the thread), but this one I think will actally work. Hopefully it will produce enough power to be practical. Thanks for sharing this, it has really captured my interest.


Offline vince

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 06:12:15 PM »
Hi Phil;

Please help me to understand your device?

As I see it you have two discs facing each other with (or without) interleaved electrodes which are located within an area that can be subjected to a magnetic field. The said electrodes are coated with Ag-O-C.  One of the discs is driven by a prime mover such as a motor and the opposing one is coupled to a load. The whole device is within a high vacuum.  At this point I am unclear as to it"s operation. Does one of the discs require (HEATING) from some source, and if so does this not consume energy?  Do the electrons that are cast from the primary disc to the secondary disc cause a rotation in the opposite direction and if so does this load the primary mover to draw more power or does it continue to drive at the same input power requirements? Is the final product of your device INCREASED rotation power on the output disc( in the opposite direction to the Primary).

To my understanding your device requires :   Input rotational power (motor)
                                                                 Input heat (electrical or otherwise)
                                                                 High Vacuum (preset or vacuum pump on during operation)

The result of this is increased rotational shaft power output in the  opposite direction that greatly exceeds  the sum of all the inputs.

Please excuse my ignorance if this summation is totally wrong and I would appreciate a simplified correction of my understanding of your device.

Thanks
Vince
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 06:12:15 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2009, 11:38:17 PM »
Hi Vince,

You have the idea wrong.

Ignore the design and look at the simple diagram with the end view of 2 ring electrodes.

Assume from that drawing that both electodes are free to rotate on a common axis (but separate bearings).

Heat is supplied to both (or to one and radiative transfer will heat the other) so that we start with 2 non turning electrodes, on independent bearing but on the same axis, and with no magnetic field.

We get thermionic electrons from both and the electrons from A collide with B and the ones form B collide with A. Over a period the number of electrons from A to B must be balanced by the ones from B to A or otherwise there would be a charge inbalance. As the electrodes have the same work function a charge inbalance would be eleiminated as it would simply impede emissions from the electrode with a positive charge and encourage electrons from the electrode with the negative charge.

So electrons will exchange and as there is no magnetic field then the average angle will be perpendicular so there is no torque induced in either electrode.

However......introduce an axial magnetic field and as per the big ring diagram electrons are curled such that the average collision is now biased in a direction thus inducing a torque. The inner torque will be the opposite of the outer electrode torque.

Now in the multielectrode diagram I have simply said let the inner electrode be fixed so that it becomes an input port for heat. The outer electrode is connected the drive shaft.

The vacuum is as you put it preset. The device is vacuum sealed with getters.

The actual drive shaft may just drive a dynamo and so be in the vacuum enclosure or it may be magnetically coupled across a glass barrier to an external drive shaft, either way the vacuum does not require any pumping.

Yes heat is supplied but if the operation is done at room temp then the heat flow is from room temp to the depressed temperature of the electrodes where some rotation has been enduced thus conserving the First Law of TD.

At room temp the torque is miniscule but if the input heat is 1000K then the amps per cm2 becomes large and with a realistic surface area of 10,000´s cm2 the cumulative drive becomes useful.

the point is that there is no exhaust and so the conversion of heat to torque must be 100% thus a violation of the Kelvin statement.

Of course with a 100% efficient conversion process a heat pump can be married to it to effectively extract a significant amount of heat from air.

Does that make sense or have I made it more confused?

Regards
Phil

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 11:43:09 PM »
To Retroworm,

Glad to see you are interested.

I have written to the professor who wrote the paper your referred to and he said it is very interesting and will get back to me with a full reply as soon as he can.

Professor XY Fu said the design is correct.

I wrote to Stephen Hawking hoping to get his approval and awiat his response.

So retroworm you are in good company.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

Regards Phil

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 11:43:09 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 11:56:39 PM »
At Retroworm,

Sorry I thought the reference you gave was to the latest paper from Germano D’Abramo.

It was in fact from Professor XY Fu of Shanghai university. He has written a later paper where he introduces anothe method. His first valve FX1 showed good results but at 1E-13 amps it seems the conservative side of science ignored him. He is now onto a 3rd valve.

He has been working on the issue for 48 years.

The italian professor has used the idea of combining Ag-O-Cs electrodes with a capacitor such that he can store the charge from 1E-13 amp flows to make a value harder to ignore, perhaps it can then be put into a ballsitic galvanometer. This would seem to be harder for skeptics to deny.

Professor Daniel Sheehan has offered to referee my work if I put it into a paper.

I think the dreamers might actually be making some advance on the ultra conservatives of science.

There are now literally dozens of proposals from respected Professors and probably 100´s from amateurs like me.

Regards

Phil H

Offline vince

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »
Thanks Phil;

I appreciate the simplified explanation. I was under the impression there was a prime mover but I think I can understand the basic Idea now.
In all practicality, however I see one major hurdle in your design. If the unit operates at room temperature or at normally elevated temps there should be no issue but if as you mention the temperatures are extremely high the bearings for both or one of the discs becomes an issue. Conventional bearings do not operate well in high heat and will fail at higher temperatures. If the discs conduct any heat through the shafts to the bearings you will definitely have problems. Placing  the bearing location at points that will not be affected by the heat and restricted by the vacuum chamber could be a real challenge.

Good luck
Vince

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 05:27:42 AM »
At Vince,

As you say Vince the design of such devices are always full of challenges, some as big as the physics. The thermal conduction of course needs to be controlled. Also high reflectivity mirrors are used so that radiative heat is contained.

Having said that there are ceramic bearings suitable for temps even higher than 1000K.

As it happens bearings suitable for high vacuum are usually non lubricated and thus ceramic with its low friction is ideal (just like jewel bearing really).

Regards Phil

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 05:27:42 AM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 01:02:59 PM »
@Phil

On your 'interleaved electrode' idea I suspect you must prevent radiation of heat in one direction. Otherwise, radiation from/to both sides of an electrode element will result in the sum of zero torque.

Regards,

BEP

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2009, 01:41:53 PM »
@BEP,

The diagram is perhaps not too clear, the active electrodes of the interleave have a purple surface so that there are 5 sets of 2 facing.

Do not confuse heat with electrons. The exchange of photons is not an issue, in fact it is part and parcel of the design for the electrodes to be in near equilibrium both in temperature and charge.

The diagram showing curled paths is only depicting electrons.

It is the very nature of the large electrode area that makes this appealing. The torque to the drive shaft saps heat from that electrode but, for instance, if operating at 900K the radiative transfer is 37017J/m2 and at 890K it is 35399J/m2 a difference of about 1.5KJ per m2. So if there are 5 sets of 1m2 plates the energy transfer for a 10Kelvin droop is 15KJ.

In other words the device can be operated with little differential expansion so electrode gaps can be kept tiny. Of course if both inner and outer electrodes were coupled to shafts then each would droop and it would be sensible to supply heat to both at the same time.

Phil

Phil

Phil

Offline BEP

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2009, 02:43:14 PM »
In my experience, with a similar device, radiation of heat and charge are much the same. Yes, photons play more a role with charge.
Radiated heat or moving charge act the same in the mag field.

I saw no purple area, but zoomed in. I see what you describe.

So this is not so much a heat engine. If it was, emissivity of the surfaces, conductivity of the electrodes, etc. would be a concern.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2009, 03:16:40 PM »
@BEP,

It is a heat to torque convertor, so it is a heat engine.

However as you rightly point out it is not worried about electrode electrical conductivity.

As Professor Fu and a few others (no pun intended) have said, it is a novel idea. It is a thermionic heat engine with no circuit. Normal thermionic heat engines are plagued with problems and even given they need exhaust they also have lead losses, unwabted radiative transfer, conductive losses, small electrode areas. To date the best use has been in putting a radioative core in one so the 10% efficiency is offset by a 100 year life (good for deep space probes).

You are right to question the term heat engine though. Clearly it is a very general term.

A heat engine with no exhaust is more properly a convertor and hence the claim of the violation of the Kelvin interpretation of the 2nd Law of TD.

As you would realise, the amount of pressure against the 2nd increases and yet a number of physicists I have shown this and professor Fu´s device refuse to consider it because they are so scared of individual thinking. I know of physicists that say I am right but refuse to say so publicly.

Perhaps it is through sites like this that a challenge goes out.

If we tell a physicist, professor or lecturer of these devices, even though yet to be built, they will refute them with dogma and the words "the second law is absolute". We must say respectfully the Second law has no proof and it only remains whilst there is no exception. So we ask the Professors etc to simply point out the reasons the device will fail and demand that if they cannot, they are prepared to admit they cannot.

This and a few other devices, including Professor Fu´s FX1 and later valves should be headline topics.

The World is in need of a new path to clean energy, zp is proving elusive, so if thermionics shows a proof of the 2nd being wrong then science should open up the doors to new ideas.

People on this site should insist that all ideas be ready to defend themselves but also demand that the sceptics also prove them wrong by rigorous analysis of claims. After all the sceptics need a miracle as much as the rest of us.

So ends my protest rant.

Anyhow BEP, thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Phil

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2009, 03:24:55 PM »
In the last posts I mentioned other professors with a claim that the 2nd law is shaky.

One is a brilliant Italian Physicist, Professor Germano D’Abramo, who has international fame for solving some seriously tricky mathematical problems. Here is a link to his paper about a room temperaure Ag-O-Cs heat convertor with a capacitor.


http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0902/0902.3590v1.pdf

Phil

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2009, 03:24:55 PM »

 

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